Warned for "Jesus"

Hey. I was warned for this post today:

Original Post:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=2360009

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Originally Posted by Fluvius Camillus

Wow you really are hopeless, I will not even try to explain to you what common values are...

~Fluvius

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Is this representative of "common values?"

Jesus you guys are touchy.

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I was accused of using profane language by a moderator who doesn't speak English as a first language, and does not live in an English-speaking country. He doesn't understand that it is common to use Jesus as an expression of shock, and he warned be because he is a Christian and doesn't agree with that type of language.

The word Jesus is not inherently profane, and it is not disallowed by the language rules spelled out in the FAQ. I had no way of reasonably knowing that this would be considered offensive (considering this is a phrase used commonly on national television and casual conversation) because it is not offensive to those who are not Christians.

Anyways, this is bothering me, and Ludens won't change it. So, I'm complaining here.

If you wanted to talk it over with the mods in a respectful way, you probably shouldn't have changed your custom user title to "Jesus" in the meantime...

You are using blasmphemy, in technical terms.

If you replied:
"Common values? Jesus is my basis for them"

Then you would have used the word Jesus legitimately.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

If you wanted to talk it over with the mods in a respectful way, you probably shouldn't have changed your custom user title to "Jesus" in the meantime...

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I know lots of people named "Jesus." It is LA after all.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

You are using blasmphemy, in technical terms.

If you replied:
"Common values? Jesus is my basis for them"

Then you would have used the word Jesus legitimately.

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Blasphemy if you happen to follow a particular religious viewpoint. If, however, you don't, Jesus is a synonym for "wow." Like in most of the US.

I used the phrase when I was an altar boy.

Maybe I did overreact. That's why I wrote you could ask TosaInu. It's under discussion now, but... I think you too are overreacting by complaining in the Watchtower when the moderators have had less than an hour to look into it. And where did I write I am a Christian?

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Originally Posted by Ludens

Maybe I did overreact. That's why I wrote you could ask TosaInu. It's under discussion now, but... I think you too are overreacting by complaining in the Watchtower when the moderators have had less than an hour to look into it. And where did I write I am a Christian?

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I'm just following every course of action available to me to correct this. I want everyone to know about this also, because I'm pretty sure the general public would take my side.

And you didn't -say- you were a Christian, but nobody else would get upset at a "profane" use of his name (as you said in your PM) Am I wrong?

We do things a bit differently here. You don't need a public appeal or get the people on your side to get a warning overturned as all warnings (or infractions) can be appealed in private with the moderator who infracted you or the big red TosaInu. We're an understanding bunch. And we don't bite.*

We mods acknowledge that we're human and that sometimes we make mistakes. Most of us however prefer the PM route as a matter of courtesy.



*Well, except Martok. He bites. But he can't help it being a Klingon and all.

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Originally Posted by lobf

I want everyone to know about this also, because I'm pretty sure the general public would take my side.

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Bollocks.

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:


Now that I've channelled that:

This is not TWC, or anything else like that. The public opinion does not reign supreme.

I inherently take the other side, based on the fact you went public with this within an hour?

You are using the name of Christ in vain, this can be offensive to people, therefore not welcome.

It matters not if Ludens finds it offensive. We treat the org as safe for everyone of the ages 8+. Ideally 13, but people as young as 8. Would you want to be 'swearing' in front of an eight year old kid?

Around here the f-bomb is used more than please or thank you, but that doesnt make it ok to post it here.

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Originally Posted by lobf

I was accused of using profane language by a moderator who doesn't speak English as a first language, and does not live in an English-speaking country. He doesn't understand that it is common to use Jesus as an expression of shock, and he warned be because he is a Christian and doesn't agree with that type of language.

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I am quite sure any non-native speaker who manages to register and log onto this forum understands the word 'Jesus'.

As to its appropriate use - this is a multi-national forum. As such, having non-Anglo moderators too actually improves the chance of staff awareness of sensitive uses of the word.


By Toutatis! A warning point that is still under consideration for a second opinion turns into a thread that only narrowly avoids outright smears against Christians, non-Americans, non-native English speakers, and anything non-Boss Angeles.

I agree with the mod on this one. Not because I am Christian, but for the same reason I would say it if you used Muhammed as a swear word. You know it can offend people, so you should not do it when you can get your meaning across just as well using a different word.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I am quite sure any non-native speaker who manages to register and log onto this forum understands the word 'Jesus'.

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:laugh4: :laugh4:

Ah that was just too funny.

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By Toutatis! A warning point that is still under consideration for a second opinion turns into a thread that only narrowly avoids outright smears against Christians, non-Americans, non-native English speakers, and anything non-Boss Angeles.

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My dear Louis, did you by any chance meet my ex girlfriend I've been telling you about? You seem happy. ~;)

I think STFS had just come online on webcam. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I am quite sure any non-native speaker who manages to register and log onto this forum understands the word 'Jesus'.

As to its appropriate use - this is a multi-national forum. As such, having non-Anglo moderators too actually improves the chance of discouraging possible sensitive uses.


By Toutatis! A warning point that is still under consideration for a second opinion turns into a thread that only narrowly avoids outright smears against Christians, non-Americans, non-native English speakers, and anything non-Boss Angeles.

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No s**t they understand "Jesus." That's the problem. The issue is not understanding the context in which it was used. It's extremely common to preface a sentence with "Jesus" "Christ" or "Jesus Christ" when expressing exasperation and/or disbelief. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it profanity.

In fact, the only way it could be profanity is if you happen to follow a particular set of personal beliefs, and I really can't be found responsible for that.

And how am I even close to "smearing" Christians, non-Americans, or non-native English speakers? Ignorance is a smear now?

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Originally Posted by pevergreen

Bollocks.

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:


Now that I've channelled that:

This is not TWC, or anything else like that. The public opinion does not reign supreme.

I inherently take the other side, based on the fact you went public with this within an hour?

You are using the name of Christ in vain, this can be offensive to people, therefore not welcome.

It matters not if Ludens finds it offensive. We treat the org as safe for everyone of the ages 8+. Ideally 13, but people as young as 8. Would you want to be 'swearing' in front of an eight year old kid?

Around here the f-bomb is used more than please or thank you, but that doesnt make it ok to post it here.

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I wasn't "swearing." I would be perfectly comfortable saying "Jesus" around an 8 year old. :daisy:.

Isn't the bottom line that if someone can be offended, then it isn't allowed? Big world.

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Originally Posted by Monk

We do things a bit differently here. You don't need a public appeal or get the people on your side to get a warning overturned as all warnings (or infractions) can be appealed in private with the moderator who infracted you or the big red TosaInu. We're an understanding bunch. And we don't bite.*

We mods acknowledge that we're human and that sometimes we make mistakes. Most of us however prefer the PM route as a matter of courtesy.



*Well, except Martok. He bites. But he can't help it being a Klingon and all.

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I didn't know how this process was going to go down, so I figured just get it all out of the way at once.

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Originally Posted by lobf

I wasn't "swearing." I would be perfectly comfortable saying "Jesus" around an 8 year old. You guys are effin nuts.

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Clearly. It hasn't stopped you from using obscenities in this thread either, if it's genuine discussion on the status of your warning you are wishing to achieve then perhaps such language is best left out.

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Originally Posted by A Very Super Market

Isn't the bottom line that if someone can be offended, then it isn't allowed? Big world.

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You offend me.


In all seriousness, if it offends the guy, he can talk to me about it, and why it offends him. To formally warn me is out of line, since it's a very subjective interpretation of what I was saying, and not at all my intention.

If he had simply told me it offends him and asked me not to do it again, I absolutely would have listened. Now I'm just incensed.

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Originally Posted by Monk

Clearly. It hasn't stopped you from using obscenities in this thread either, if it's genuine discussion on the status of your warning you are wishing to achieve then perhaps such language is best left out.

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What?? What language?

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Originally Posted by lobf

What?? What language?

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:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Monk

:rolleyes:

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Tell me you aren't referring to "effin."

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

My dear Louis, did you by any chance meet my ex girlfriend I've been telling you about? You seem happy. ~;)

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My dearest, if I had stumbled into your eightteen year old, neurosurgeon, kind, hot, French virgin, I wouldn't be posting here. :beam:

Jesus, Mary and Joseph, man! I can't believe you really dumped her. :smash:


I'd tell you to give her my phone number, if only in real life I wouldn't have a hunchback, elephantitis, and many other deformities.

By the way...

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/searc...earchid=241430

Edit: Not saying 2 wrongs make a right, just pointing out the discrepancy in enforcement.

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Originally Posted by lobf

No Incompatible language they understand "Jesus." That's the problem. The issue is not understanding the context in which it was used. It's extremely common to preface a sentence with "Jesus" "Christ" or "Jesus Christ" when expressing exasperation and/or disbelief. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it profanity.

In fact, the only way it could be profanity is if you happen to follow a particular set of personal beliefs, and I really can't be found responsible for that.

And how am I even close to "smearing" Christians, non-Americans, or non-native English speakers? Ignorance is a smear now?

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It may be common, but its not socially acceptable everywhere in the world.

'Damn' may be absolutely nothing here, but a certain beserker informed a commander of hankerchiefs that it is worse than the f-bomb where he lives.

This is not a democracy.

Each area is moderated by the people who preside in that area, so there will always be slight differences. The EB sub-forum is hardly a place to cite, that place...well, lets just say everything there is lax. When the denizens come out, I cringe.

Oh hi, ACIN ~:wave:

:grin2:

OK, calm down... Good... breath... The man (Ludens) is competent enough in English in order to understand you. The fact he is not a native speaker does not make him inferior to you in any way. He also told you he could have slightly overreacted and told you contact Tosa. From my personal observation, he is one of the most friendly people around, so you should not suspect him of bad feelings towards you. The matter is solved. Anything else is, I believe, attracting attention unnecessarily.

Now, you can contribute to a more useful topic than this one. :bow: You can do it! ~:)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Btw, have in mind religious issue is a touchy topic... be careful.

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Originally Posted by pevergreen

It may be common, but its not socially acceptable everywhere in the world.

'Damn' may be absolutely nothing here, but a certain beserker informed a commander of hankerchiefs that it is worse than the f-bomb where he lives.

This is not a democracy.

Each area is moderated by the people who preside in that area, so there will always be slight differences. The EB sub-forum is hardly a place to cite, that place...well, lets just say everything there is lax. When the denizens come out, I cringe.

Oh hi, ACIN ~:wave:

:grin2:

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Oops, I honestly didn't realize I had said "sh*t."

Are you saying I'm an ACIN alt account?

No, I just said hello to ACIN. If you were ACIN you'd be insulting me or my mother or something, I dunno, I don't read half of what he says.


I'd edit out both your post with the word and this one, the common practice is to either asterix out the entire word eg: Oh ****. or the ever faithful :daisy: (:daisy:) simply blocking out one letter or even s*** is not enough and may attract WPs.

Wait, whaaa?? What nationality is Ludens?

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Originally Posted by lobf

You offend me.


In all seriousness, if it offends the guy, he can talk to me about it, and why it offends him. To formally warn me is out of line, since it's a very subjective interpretation of what I was saying, and not at all my intention.

If he had simply told me it offends him and asked me not to do it again, I absolutely would have listened. Now I'm just incensed.

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Think of the org as your english class and the moderators as your english teacher, aka that guy who marks up your paper for all your misplaced apostrophes and silly semantics. Yes, he's being overly picky, but who else would you have as an english teacher but someone who is picky about language?

This is a textbook example of how not to appeal a warning.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

This is a textbook example of how not to appeal a warning.

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Not really. He justs wants to vent. Could be a textbook example of venting :)

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Originally Posted by Just Vuk Again

I agree with the mod on this one. Not because I am Christian, but for the same reason I would say it if you used Muhammed as a swear word. You know it can offend people, so you should not do it when you can get your meaning across just as well using a different word.

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Oh my, with pevergreens example for covering up the f-word, it is the whole Danish cartoon situation again.

edit: Stolen from Gameroom, but live your life sin-free.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...77&postcount=2

I honestly never realized that Ludens wasn't a native speaker of English. His written English is better than mine at any rate.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

I honestly never realized that Ludens wasn't a native speaker of English. His written English is better than mine at any rate.

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Likewise. I also believe he would speak it better than myself.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Wait, whaaa?? What nationality is Ludens?

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Anyone? :sweatdrop:

I had to move up my question, since this is now the second page... And yes, others noted, I never realised Ludens was not a native speaker. I mean, his style of writing seemed to indicate inborn fluency. Non-native speakers usually write better, but it is noticeable in the syntax as well as other factors which country they come from.

Not all of us use 30 posts per page.

*basks in the glorious radience that is 80 posts per page.*

Sweet. High five.

Mafia threads run on for way too long though....

Indeed, I agree with lobf. Recieving a warning for saying Jesus is nothing short of ridiculous. I too would be completely pissed off were I in lobf's shoes. What if I'm an hellenist and someone says "By Zeus!" should they get a warning as well? What about if I was a Buddhist, people wouldn't be allowed to exclaim "Buddha!"?

I was aware that this wasn't a democracy but to go as far as warning a person for using a name, that seems a little Theocrat-leaning.

My 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by pevergreen

Not all of us use 30 posts per page.

*basks in the glorious radience that is 80 posts per page.*

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Thirty is the default :shrug:. Most people keep it, even if they are aware of the possibility to change it.


So, the question remains, what nationality is Ludens?

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Originally Posted by Jolt

Indeed, I agree with lobf. Recieving a warning for saying Jesus is nothing short of ridiculous. I too would be completely pissed off were I in lobf's shoes. What if I'm an hellenist and someone says "By Zeus!" should they get a warning as well? What about if I was a Buddhist, people wouldn't be allowed to exclaim "Buddha!"?

I was aware that this wasn't a democracy but to go as far as warning a person for using a name, that seems a little Theocrat-leaning.

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Hmmm, when looking it from this viewpoint, the infraction is indeed utterly preposterous. Christian bias it is, and Ludens does not have to be Christian to assert such bias. We live in a culture shaped by Christianity and holdovers remain aplenty. I bet a dollar for doughnut Ludens would have not given an infraction for "by Allah!" or "by Brahma!"

(since Buddha is not at all a deity in the vast majority of the forms of Buddhism and since "by Zeus!" was not considered blasphemy in the Antiquity, I had to choose better examples to illustrate the point :sweatdrop:).

However, yes, lobf could have been more polite about it... And anyway, I thought the infraction was for mainly the perceived "cut-off" , or uncouth nature of lobf's remark to Fluvius and not because of the Jesus reference...

Noone has any right to ask Ludens his nationality or any other personal information which is not volunteered.

For the record, I do not think the original thing warrants a warning. I think I may have used the same or similar signs of exasperation multiple times myself, but will try to avoid this in the future.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Hmmm, when looking it from this viewpoint, the infraction is indeed utterly preposterous.

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From another viewpoint, it can be even a violation of the Ten Commandments and considered to be offensive. Cursing is tricky and it will not be a bad thing to avoid it. This is a good example. Once again, religious issues are delicate topics.

Lobf made his point clear and it'd be good if he listens to the Ludens' advice and speaks with Tosa about his infraction points. And perhaps to consider changing his title beneath his user name. No offense but I find it to be slightly preposterous (though he is annoyed).

I think it would be worth noting that lobf was issued with a warning PM, not an infraction point.

This carries no penalty, merely recording the post and moderator's note.

These used to be called Alerts, which despite the gentler name, also tended to cause those so inclined to over-react.

It's a formal PM, that's all. When you get a warning, or even a infraction point (which does have consequences) with which you disagree, the best start is to PM the moderator. You're much more likely to get a misunderstanding over-turned.

Also, members should note the context in which a warning/infraction is given. The one word or post of itself may seem within the rules, but may be indicative of an aggressive tone throughout a thread, which, taken as a whole, the moderator feels is disrespectful or otherwise unwelcome.

A warning PM would be entirely sensible in these circumstances, because they certainly get read.

God, this thread is funny :laugh4:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

:tongue:

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Originally Posted by CountArach

God, this thread is funny :laugh4:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

:tongue:

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:whip: Back to your assignments!

So it was just a warning, no WP's.

Then whats the big deal. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by pevergreen

:whip: Back to your assignments!

So it was just a warning, no WP's.

Then whats the big deal. :shrug:

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I think it was just a case of Whine-One-One.

In the gameroom, religious references are just edited out if used out of context, because in a way, it is classed as swearing. I sympathise more with the moderator who seemed clearly helpful and understanding.

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Originally Posted by lobf

No :daisy: they understand "Jesus." That's the problem. The issue is not understanding the context in which it was used. It's extremely common to preface a sentence with "Jesus" "Christ" or "Jesus Christ" when expressing exasperation and/or disbelief. Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it profanity.

In fact, the only way it could be profanity is if you happen to follow a particular set of personal beliefs, and I really can't be found responsible for that.

And how am I even close to "smearing" Christians, non-Americans, or non-native English speakers? Ignorance is a smear now?

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I can see where Ludens is coming from. Keep in mind this is an international forum. Some people may take offence. You have to take into account sensitivities of other people when posting at the Org.

You may have noticed that Ludens already posted in this thread, admitted that he himself is not sure and already asked Tosa's opinion on the matter.

Moderators and admins are volunteers, we are not available 24/7, so please, be patient.

Tosa probably hasn't been online since Ludens request.

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Originally Posted by lobf

I wasn't "swearing." I would be perfectly comfortable saying "Jesus" around an 8 year old. You guys are effin nuts.

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Calling your fellow Org members "nuts" is a personal attack and not appropriate, btw.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

So, the question remains, what nationality is Ludens?

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Privacy...

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Thirty is the default :shrug:. Most people keep it, even if they are aware of the possibility to change it.


So, the question remains, what nationality is Ludens?


Hmmm, when looking it from this viewpoint, the infraction is indeed utterly preposterous. Christian bias it is, and Ludens does not have to be Christian to assert such bias. We live in a culture shaped by Christianity and holdovers remain aplenty. I bet a dollar for doughnut Ludens would have not given an infraction for "by Allah!" or "by Brahma!"

(since Buddha is not at all a deity in the vast majority of the forms of Buddhism and since "by Zeus!" was not considered blasphemy in the Antiquity, I had to choose better examples to illustrate the point :sweatdrop:).

However, yes, lobf could have been more polite about it... And anyway, I thought the infraction was for mainly the perceived "cut-off" , or uncouth nature of lobf's remark to Fluvius and not because of the Jesus reference...

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First, Portugal is a Catholic country, and even in my country, devout Christians use "Jesus!" as an exclamation work.
The point behind going into "religious" insults is why should some beliefs take precedence over others? As you well pointed out, if he had said "By Brahma" or something of the sort, nobody would have been warned? If I belonged to a sect where people worship my divinity (Which already exists btw) where while I'm Jolt, only I am allowed to be called Jolt by myself, other people most call me "Most Enlightened Being", and anything less than that would make me profoundly offended, would those people calling me Jolt or something else be issued warning points?

Unless its clearly a discriminatory attack on one religion, I hardly see how one can recieve warnings from something religious-related that isn't either scandalous and can't be manipulated to prevent people from saying basically anything.

I thought this thread was about someone called "Jesus" getting a warning.

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Originally Posted by bovi

Noone has any right to ask Ludens his nationality or any other personal information which is not volunteered.

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WRONG!

Everybody has the right to ask Ludens about his nationality or any other personal information as long as it does not turn into harassment and Ludens in turn has the right not to answer any of it.

Darwin, banning people from asking that is like saying you don't have the right to post in lobf's thread unless he gave you written permission, this is a community and not a secret meeting of secret service members. I've asked some people about personal stuff and if they don't answer it it that's perfectly fine and makes them look like grumpy old men. :beam:

As to the actual topic, it seems a bit over the top, I've read "jeez" here quite a few times and my guess has always been that "jeez" developed as some form of "Jesus". I think it would just be fair though to keep the warning for this thread and the language he uses in it. ~;)
As Pever and others pointed out, lobf violates some rules right here in this thread, swear words shall not be blanked out just partly but completely, for example.

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Originally Posted by Husar

As Pever and others pointed out, lobf violates some rules right here in this thread, swear words shall not be blanked out just partly but completely, for example.

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As we can see in the above quote, Husar breaks the most strict rule of all here on the .org.


:stare:

:laugh4:

pevergreen.

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As for the nationality question, ask him in PM if you are really curious, due to some of the replies to the thread, it is actually quite inappropriate to ask him here. You are forgetting the social context and situation. I will make it simpler for you to understand.

Guy1: Rages against Moderator over very minor thing.
Guy?: Says about situation.
Guy?: Brings up about cultures and region and other things.
Moderator: Take it to TosaInu, he will happily solve it, I thought I was doing right and did a friendly message about it.
Guy?: ZOMG YOU NOT ENGLISH I THOUGHT YOU WAS
Guy?: In my culture, we break all ten commandments as a lifestyle choice, where are you from?
Guy?: He can type better than me, where are you from? :inquisitive:
Guy?: *calling Whine-One-One*


You can probably see from this, why asking about personal details from Ludens is inappropriate in this situation. The guy is doing his job and a good job at that.

Also what relevance does it have? If he was English for example, are you going to tell tales of how your grandma who visits church on Sunday doesn't care about taking the Lord's name in Vain?


Ergo: Chill, relax and don't hijack a crashed bandwagon.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

Also what relevance does it have? If he was English for example, are you going to tell tales of how your grandma who visits church on Sunday doesn't care about taking the Lord's name in Vain?

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You're missing the important question.

Does his mother wear fancy hats?

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Originally Posted by lobf

In all seriousness, if it offends the guy, he can talk to me about it, and why it offends him. To formally warn me is out of line, since it's a very subjective interpretation of what I was saying, and not at all my intention.

If he had simply told me it offends him and asked me not to do it again, I absolutely would have listened. Now I'm just incensed.

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Deciding what is offensive speech and what is not, IS subjective and each moderator makes his or her own judgements. There is no objective book listing what may and may not be said on an internet forum - staff here have to make their own value judgements, although informed by shared experience and discussions with other staff. That does not mean everything they give warnings for offends them personally.

From the perspective of an ex-moderator, one thing you could bear in mind is that staff have a very useful forum tool for warning posters that makes it preferable to using a PM for a variety of reasons - it is quick, automatically quotes the offending text and keeps a record that all staff can consult. Now I understand that receiving a PM marked "warning" can appear incendiary, but as Banquo's Ghost said really it is little more than asking you not to do it again. When I was a mod, I initially tried to use PMs at one stage for mild cases like this, but eventually decided it was more trouble than it was worth and switched to warnings.

One reason for the warning may be that that starting a put down with the word "Jesus" is potentially incendiary and may inflame the debate. Your casual mild profanities (effin, the s-word) in this thread also are a style of posting that risks raising the temperature. Moderators are rather like firemen and try to stop careless users setting fire to our nice polite Org. I suspect you got warned for dropping a smouldering cigarette on the floor.

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Originally Posted by Jolt

Indeed, I agree with lobf. Recieving a warning for saying Jesus is nothing short of ridiculous. I too would be completely pissed off were I in lobf's shoes. What if I'm an hellenist and someone says "By Zeus!" should they get a warning as well? What about if I was a Buddhist, people wouldn't be allowed to exclaim "Buddha!"?

I was aware that this wasn't a democracy but to go as far as warning a person for using a name, that seems a little Theocrat-leaning.

My 2 cents.

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Jeez, about time. (Is Jeez okay?? It's short for Jesus, I think. Oh no!)

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

I think it would be worth noting that lobf was issued with a warning PM, not an infraction point.

This carries no penalty, merely recording the post and moderator's note.

These used to be called Alerts, which despite the gentler name, also tended to cause those so inclined to over-react.

It's a formal PM, that's all. When you get a warning, or even a infraction point (which does have consequences) with which you disagree, the best start is to PM the moderator. You're much more likely to get a misunderstanding over-turned.

Also, members should note the context in which a warning/infraction is given. The one word or post of itself may seem within the rules, but may be indicative of an aggressive tone throughout a thread, which, taken as a whole, the moderator feels is disrespectful or otherwise unwelcome.

A warning PM would be entirely sensible in these circumstances, because they certainly get read.

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I don't care what it technically means. I was officially warned for some nonsense, commonly used exclamation. It should be rescinded because it is not any kind of violation of policy. That is not an offensive phrase unless you have a personal bias towards Christianity.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

God, this thread is funny :laugh4:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

:tongue:

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This guy better get an official warning too, or else I call BS.

Oh for crying out loud, it was just a PM?

The simple matter is that it IS offensive to some people, and should be considered as an offensive word.

If I were to say, "Jeez lobf, you're such a Jew", you and I would not find it as offensive as a Jewish member, just because we are not Jewish doesn't mean we can call people Jews as a derogatory term, just like the fact you're not a Christian doesn't give you an excuse to "take the Lord's name in vain" because some Christians, including I, DO find it offensive and profane.

The guy who got the warning - PM or otherwise - is quite right in that to get a warning for using the word jesus - no matter what context - never warrants a warning. Simply, if it offends you because you are a Chrstian - you are too easily offended.

However he probably didn't realise he didn't have to make such a big do about it - sas is right, possibly the worst example of how to go about getting a warning retracted. Sometimes just because you are right, it does mean you still have to go about things properly, something I have learnt the hard way ;)

Anyway, he probably didn't know this so give him some space.

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Originally Posted by KarlXII

The simple matter is that it IS offensive to some people, and should be considered as an offensive word.

If I were to say, "Jeez lobf, you're such a Jew", you and I would not find it as offensive as a Jewish member, just because we are not Jewish doesn't mean we can call people Jews as a derogatory term, just like the fact you're not a Christian doesn't give you an excuse to "take the Lord's name in vain" because some Christians, including I, DO find it offensive and profane.

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If I were to say "you're a Jew" as I tried to insult you, it would actually be derogatory in that I'm implying Jews are bad people. I did nothing of the sort.

The guy above me said "God this thread is funny." Why don't you take offense to that?

The fact of the matter is this only offends you if you have a personal bias towards a particular religion. Nobody would say boo if I said "Zeus, you guys are touchy," or "By Buddah you guys are touchy!"

Like Jolt said

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Unless its clearly a discriminatory attack on one religion, I hardly see how one can recieve warnings from something religious-related that isn't either scandalous and can't be manipulated to prevent people from saying basically anything.

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It wasn't a discriminatory attack. It is a commonly used exclamation and only offensive if you are a particularly anal member of the Christian faith.

In regard to the severity of the warning: I don't know the differences between the warnings. All I know is that I have an "official Infraction." I know that in the future if action is to be taken against me for something else, the powers that be can look back and say "oh, look, we warned you for something already. time to take it to the next step."

I don't want to have a strike against me because I said nothing inherently offensive or derogatory.

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Originally Posted by Husar

WRONG!

Everybody has the right to ask Ludens about his nationality or any other personal information as long as it does not turn into harassment and Ludens in turn has the right not to answer any of it.

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Sorry for bad choice of words. Replace ask with demand.

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Originally Posted by lobf

Anyways, this is bothering me, and Ludens won't change it. So, I'm complaining here.

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It surprises me that you are not complaining about your aggressive posting style and bad language in posts #36, #38 and #77 of that thread and the fact that post #79, which contained the word "Jesus", was also a clear attempt at getting that thread even more heated than it already was and which eventually caused the thread to get closed...

Maybe Ludens was in a hurry (as he indicated when he closed the thread, btw) and didn't have enough time to write an elaborate explanation about why exactly your behaviour in that thread was way out of line? Not that such an explanation would be needed, as it seems pretty obvious.

All in all, I think that just a pm warning was more than fair in this case, considering your behaviour in that thread.

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Originally Posted by Andres

It surprises me that you are not complaining about your aggressive posting style and bad language in posts #36, #38 and #77 of that thread and the fact that post #79, which contained the word "Jesus", was also a clear attempt at getting that thread even more heated than it already was and which eventually caused the thread to get closed...

Maybe Ludens was in a hurry (as he indicated when he closed the thread, btw) and didn't have enough time to write an elaborate explanation about why exactly your behaviour in that thread was way out of line? Not that such an explanation would be needed, as it seems pretty obvious.

All in all, I think that just a pm warning was more than fair in this case, considering your behaviour in that thread.

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Except in the PM he specifically cited my use of "Jesus" as the reason for the warning and called it "profane," while making not a single remark about any other posts?

Not to mention I was attacked in that thread after committing the grave offense of asking for sources. Oh no!

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Originally Posted by lobf

The guy above me said "God this thread is funny." Why don't you take offense to that?

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Because "God" can refer to a number of dieties, it is not the Christian God, because that is not His Name.

The use of the word "Jesus!" as an interjection is profanity, and it is commonly defined and accepted, especially in America, as profane. You cannot get around that, it's the simple truth. No matter how common it is, it is still profanity. You cannot make profanity accepted just by saying "WELL LOL PEOPLES SAY IT ALL THE TIME SO WUTS THE DEALZORZ!!!?!?!?", or else we'd have more swearing in here than a navy ship!

lobf: I believe this discussion is not useful to your case. You had a valid question about your warning, but unfortunately you did not handle it properly. As a result, the issue regarding your warning is now difficult to disentangle from your subsequent behavior. When you raised the issue via PM, the Moderators immediately began discussing whether the warning was proper under the circumstances. However, after that point you started this thread and have since dropped several very significant curse words and have otherwise demonstrated less than sterling behavior. This influences your case a great deal, as it makes your look like a troll and that cannot help but distort our perception of the original incident.

I would suggest that you simply let the matter lie, as from my standpoint it looks like your current course is only likely to get you into more trouble. I will once again emphasize that a warning PM is just that: a warning. No action is taken on it and it is simply a notice sent from a Moderator to a member. Be careful you don't talk your way into an actual infraction, when all you've gotten so far is a finger wag. In the future, please be aware that we really do review warnings and infractions in a proper and reasonable manner when an appeal is lodged. Doing so in a polite and respectful manner is far more likely to result in a positive outcome than reacting in the manner that you have demonstrated in this thread.

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Originally Posted by lobf

And you didn't -say- you were a Christian, but nobody else would get upset at a "profane" use of his name (as you said in your PM) Am I wrong?

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Yes. In fact, my very first post on the .Org was a defence of atheism. I am not religious, but I think it important to be respectful of the religious feelings of others, if only for the sake of politeness.

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Originally Posted by Andres

You may have noticed that Ludens already posted in this thread, admitted that he himself is not sure and already asked Tosa's opinion on the matter.

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For the record: it was lobf who contacted TosaInu, not me.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

Oh for crying out loud, it was just a PM?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

I honestly never realized that Ludens wasn't a native speaker of English. His written English is better than mine at any rate.

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Originally Posted by pevergreen

Likewise. I also believe he would speak it better than myself.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

And yes, others noted, I never realised Ludens was not a native speaker. I mean, his style of writing seemed to indicate inborn fluency. Non-native speakers usually write better, but it is noticeable in the syntax as well as other factors which country they come from.

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:bow: