Backroom Poll. The (major) Religious Affiliation in Backroom...

Well, I was quite confused when reading some threads on the backroom because I don't know exactly... who are affiliated to which religion / philoshophy... well, hope this little pool won't hurt anyone...

Please note that this was "Major" affiliation... so don't ask about finer details

1) Christian = everyone who believe in Jesus, all including Catholics, Orthodox, and Christian Denominations.

2) Deist = everyone who believe in God, but who is God? Not my Business... including such as Agnostics, Free Thinkers, etc... Agnostics Ignosticism....

3) Jewish = no matter how orthodox or secular, if you identify yourself as Jew, choose this

4) Complete Atheist = No God, that's all... thank you.

5) Islam = including Sunni, Shia... at least you believe in Muhammad's teachings

6) Far-East Religions = Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Shinto... etc

7) New age - Hindu = everything comes on spiritual meanings, comes from India, but doesn't related directly with far-east

8) Satanic = HELL YEAH!!! SATAN RULEZ!!!!

9) Others = Animism, Dinamism, traditional religion of native peoples....

10) Religion? I still confused with my own religion!!!!

Well, hope this poll will give us better insight on who are our discussion friends here, at the backroom, so we can avoid unintended offensive thingies.... (you know better)

You missed out Agnostic and Ignostic. I am personally an ignostic.

Edit: You stuck Agnosticism and Ignosticism in with "everyone who believes in God". It is actually arguably closer to athiesm due to agnostics having no definition stance on the existence of any god and ignostic view of "What do you mean by god?" with a default position accepting current explanations. There is also Antitheism which is pretty much "militant athiesm",

These terms and athiesm could/should be put under a nonthiest category.

Somewhere between apathy and deism.

Scientologist?

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

5) Islam = including Sunni, Shia... at least you believe in Muhammad

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OUCH! Er to Muslims Muhamad is a prophet, not a god, and not to be worshipped. Allah is the only god and praise be to him (or something). Worship of Muhamad is tantamount to idolatry for Muslims - strictly against their faith.

I suggest you modify the above to "believe in Allah".

I, incidentaly am an athiest.

Ha, I missed that

And what about the Druze?

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Originally Posted by alh_p

OUCH! Er to Muslims Muhamad is a prophet, not a god, and not to be worshipped. Allah is the only god and praise be to him (or something). Worship of Muhamad is tantamount to idolatry for Muslims - strictly against their faith.

I suggest you modify the above to "believe in Allah".

I, incidentaly am an athiest.

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Repaired into --> Muhammad's teachings... :grin:

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

Repaired into --> Muhammad's teachings... :grin:

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I don't mean to nit-pick and i do realise you are trying to avoid each option saying "I believe in God", but it's still not right! :embarassed:

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5) Islam = including Sunni, Shia... at least you believe in follow Muhammad's teachings

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Since the option "don't have any" was left out, I voted satanic since it sounded cooler than "other".

EDIT: double post.

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Well, I was quite confused when reading some threads on the backroom because I don't know exactly... who are affiliated to which religion / philoshophy...

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Isn't that a good thing? Shouldn't you judge what people are saying based on the content of their argument rather than (dare I say it) a prejudice based on their religion? :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Subotan

Scientologist?

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Hail Xenu! Hail Xenu! Hail Xenu!

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Originally Posted by Viking

Since the option "don't have any" was left out, I voted satanic since it sounded cooler than "other".

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I am currently boycotting the inclusion of Ignostic in with deism.

What about all sorts of neo paganisms? That's is new age but certainly not from India.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

You missed out Agnostic and Ignostic. I am personally an ignostic.

Edit: You stuck Agnosticism and Ignosticism in with "everyone who believes in God". It is actually arguably closer to athiesm due to agnostics having no definition stance on the existence of any god and ignostic view of "What do you mean by god?" with a default position accepting current explanations. There is also Antitheism which is pretty much "militant athiesm",

These terms and athiesm could/should be put under a nonthiest category.

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I am diagnostic. No definitive position, but I constantly review my opinions against a baseline, preferably with lots of utilities and tools.

i dont consider all of christianity the same thing there ar emajor differences between me and say sfts or zain theologically.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

You missed out Agnostic and Ignostic. I am personally an ignostic.

Edit: You stuck Agnosticism and Ignosticism in with "everyone who believes in God". It is actually arguably closer to athiesm due to agnostics having no definition stance on the existence of any god and ignostic view of "What do you mean by god?" with a default position accepting current explanations. There is also Antitheism which is pretty much "militant athiesm",

These terms and athiesm could/should be put under a nonthiest category.

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Well, agnostics are atheists, necessarily. I like the word "antitheist" a lot though.

I will chorus the others regarding agnosticism.
I know what the wikipedia says regarding Deism and I disagree with it. Deism to me means a closed heaven or clockwork creation. I would argue that most of Christianity/Judaism/Islam belongs in that category.

There are no current "communication" with deity and they live by what was once revealed. Hence they are Deists.
Another point: It is nice to see so many acknowledging that Atheism is a major religion. :beam:

If you want agnosticism and atheism in this poll, they should be listed under:
Not affiliated with a major religion.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

i dont consider all of christianity the same thing there ar emajor differences between me and say sfts or zain theologically.

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The only true christians are protestants, catholics are idol worshipers.

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Originally Posted by alh_p

OUCH! Er to Muslims Muhamad is a prophet, not a god, and not to be worshipped. Allah is the only god and praise be to him (or something). Worship of Muhamad is tantamount to idolatry for Muslims - strictly against their faith.

I suggest you modify the above to "believe in Allah".

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Jesus Christ and Muhammad, Cute Wolf, you live in Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation (i.e. more Indonesian Muslims than of any other single nationality). How did you miss that and still be comfortable? :tongue: I mean, you probably live in a more tolerant area, but those bombings of mosques and churches...

But of course, that could have been a simple misarrangement of words for the sake of brevity, on the other hand :shrug:, which is probably what was the real reason.

All you Christians are atheists just like me. I simply happen to not believe in just one more god than you do. :beam:

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Well, agnostics are atheists, necessarily. I like the word "antitheist" a lot though.

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Only my creed of atheism is right. Agnostics must burn at the stake for their heresy.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Jesus Christ and Muhammad, Cute Wolf, you live in Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation (i.e. more Indonesian Muslims than of any other single nationality). How did you miss that and still be comfortable? :tongue: I mean, you probably live in a more tolerant area, but those bombings of mosques and churches...

But of course, that could have been a simple misarrangement of words for the sake of brevity, on the other hand :shrug:, which is probably what was the real reason.

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Yeah... you have contact with sonic right? then ask him about that :grin: Not entire Indonesian muslims are hard-liners jihadim, most of them are Beer-Drinking, Pork-Eating, skip prayings, and even loathe religious rituals things... Did you know, until 90's, most of Indonesian muslims still common to eat pigs?!? I'm not joking, if you found an old recipe books from Indonesia, you'll astonished when you see how many alcoholic beverages and porks we consume... Rising Education quality... "Ironically" made a big rise in hardliner muslims... eah, hardliners exists here for a long time... but after they are given grants to build schools and universities... they start produce hardline acedemics, and even terrorists. Blame the USA anti-communists grants for brewing their own enemies.

Well - well, but put aside that ironical trends, you must still remember that most of Indonesian muslims are still Beer-Drinking, Pork-Eating, and Skip-Praying kind of guys.... :grin: ... the radical muslims are rising, it's true, but most of them become radicals through peer pressures, and negative propaganda against western entities (especially the Israel-Palestinian issues). Why I tell you to ask sonic for details, because he was an extreme type ofl "Beer-Drinkin", "Pork-Eatin", "Never Prayin", and "Ridiculously Emo" guy....

And I must said that officially, Atheism is forbidden in Indonesia... you can place a bet that Atheism was still a big factor... but as the ridiculous stereotypes that atheist = communist, and communists are strictly forbidden... well, you can't list atheists as your system of belief here... on your ID card...

indifferent agnostic, but voted athiest in the absence of my preferred option.

Yeah, IIRC, many of Indonesia's Muslims are 'abangan' Muslims, meaning though they are technically Muslims, they are heavily influenced by their own local native/pagan practices. Kind of like the Muslim equivalent of Catholics.

*runs away*

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

All you Christians are atheists just like me. I simply happen to not believe in just one more god than you do. :beam:

Only my creed of atheism is right. Agnostics must burn at the stake for their heresy.

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Hear hear

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

Yeah... you have contact with sonic right? then ask him about that :grin: Not entire Indonesian muslims are hard-liners jihadim, most of them are Beer-Drinking, Pork-Eating, skip prayings, and even loathe religious rituals things... Did you know, until 90's, most of Indonesian muslims still common to eat pigs?!? I'm not joking, if you found an old recipe books from Indonesia, you'll astonished when you see how many alcoholic beverages and porks we consume... Rising Education quality... "Ironically" made a big rise in hardliner muslims... eah, hardliners exists here for a long time... but after they are given grants to build schools and universities... they start produce hardline acedemics, and even terrorists. Blame the USA anti-communists grants for brewing their own enemies.

Well - well, but put aside that ironical trends, you must still remember that most of Indonesian muslims are still Beer-Drinking, Pork-Eating, and Skip-Praying kind of guys.... :grin: ... the radical muslims are rising, it's true, but most of them become radicals through peer pressures, and negative propaganda against western entities (especially the Israel-Palestinian issues). Why I tell you to ask sonic for details, because he was an extreme type ofl "Beer-Drinkin", "Pork-Eatin", "Never Prayin", and "Ridiculously Emo" guy....

And I must said that officially, Atheism is forbidden in Indonesia... you can place a bet that Atheism was still a big factor... but as the ridiculous stereotypes that atheist = communist, and communists are strictly forbidden... well, you can't list atheists as your system of belief here... on your ID card...

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Look, I had an Indonesian friend in 8th grade, I know how it generally is (very generally), but whatever it is, from what I heard was that Indonesia was on average much more religious than any average Western secular nation, and I did not think that one of the most crucial components of Islam escaped from you. But it says good things about you and your country IMHO, if you know so little about Islam ~;) - you can try to find out yourself why, or ask me if you give up :yes:

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Originally Posted by Cute Wolf

And I must said that officially, Atheism is forbidden in Indonesia... you can place a bet that Atheism was still a big factor... but as the ridiculous stereotypes that atheist = communist, and communists are strictly forbidden... well, you can't list atheists as your system of belief here... on your ID card...

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I have to say, I am not sure which I am most disturbed about.

The fact atheism is forbidden or the fact you have to display your faith on an Identity Card.

I'm still confused...so where is that pool now?!? ~;)

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Well, agnostics are atheists, necessarily. I like the word "antitheist" a lot though.

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The best one I've heard someone describe themselves as is an apatheist. One who does not care if there is a God.

Whats up with all the Catholic bashing!! Maybe most of my Church will take it but you better watch out.

Yeah strike we may have our idols but at least we dont dance with snakes. :laugh:

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The only true christians are protestants, catholics are idol worshipers.

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That is such a broad and ridiculous statement i'm not sure whethe rto take you seriously.

I personally dislike Catholics for what I view as archaic beliefs, but this is outweighed by my respect for the Catholic intellectual tradition and their lack of anti-intellectualism in comparison to other Christian denominations. In fact, Catholicism long stimulated scholasticism and sciences (as well as opposing the latter, for that matter, so it is mixed - but what matters is that Catholicism did inspire science, and it created the conditions which inspired such studies).

Sources: That is what Joseph Campbell said at least :shrug:

Ah that it did. While in some ways it stifled it overall increased knowledge and helped the West to Dominance. Renaissance was most definitely helped along by the generous patronage of the Church as were other events.

Catholicism also played the role of preserver after the end of the Roman Empire by retaining knowledge in monastery's and libraries.

Great book on just that subject is How the Irish Saved Civilization.

Canaanite?

I'd have voted in this poll if it had "areligious" or some variant of that instead of "atheist". I am not an atheist, and voting "other" just sucks.

EDIT: Oh boy, the OP. An agnost is NOT a deist.

EDIT2: Cute Wolf, just cause I'm interested, are you perhaps Moluccan (Ambonese) or something? Being Christian and all.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

The best one I've heard someone describe themselves as is an apatheist. One who does not care if there is a God.

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There is also concepts such as Metaphysical naturalism which readily get dismissed. [definition: see below]

So technicially, I would be more of an athiest-antitheist-metaphysical naturalist-ignostic as I ascribe to different thoughts at different levels, in form of a construct.

To explain this, I will explain the order of importance and thought.

Main fundamental aspect is the ignostic.

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The view that a coherent definition of God must be presented before the question of the existence of God can be meaningfully discussed. Furthermore, if that definition is unfalsifiable, the ignostic takes the theological noncognitivist position that the question of the existence of God (per that definition) is meaningless. In this case, the concept of God is not considered meaningless; the term "God" is considered meaningless.

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If god means wolves to those in that tribe, means the river in another, or means the king in that culture, and all those other definitions and examples, how can you actually talk about the existance of god? Also, that wolf is just a wolf, that river is just a river, that king is just a king. If they are something I term 'Massively Powerful Being', then they are just that, a massively powerful being, may it be an advanced Artifical Intelligence UFO at the centre of the galaxy which can manulipate things at a quantum level or otherwise. The application of 'god' to these things is seemingly and obviously meaningless.

Secondly, as some one with a background in science (Since I have a BSc and a MSc), I am a metaphysical naturalist.

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Metaphysical naturalism regards nature as all that exists or can exist, and assumes that observable events in nature are explainable only by resort to empirically observable causes. Consequently, supernatural agency is discounted, as are some abstractions thought to be independent of the physical universe (e.g., numbers).

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Though, if we cannot currently observe or measure events, I believe in that we can do in the future, thus nature is everything is that exists or can exist.

Due to these points, I tend to hold an antitheist opinion.

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Antitheism (sometimes anti-theism) is active opposition to theism. The etymological roots of the word are the Greek 'anti-' and 'theismos'. The term has had a range of applications; in secular contexts, it typically refers to direct opposition to organized religion or to the belief in any deity, while in a theistic context, it sometimes refers to opposition to a specific god or gods.

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Since organised religion conflicts with the first two points (plus the fact they are generally a means of control and power), I tend to have an antitheist element.

Finally, as god cannot be defined, and most definitions of god attempt to say he is supernatural, and as a naturalist, I am opposed to this, and the fact all these organised religions are obviously not correct. I take the final stance that there must not be a 'god;.

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Atheism, defined most narrowly, is the position that there are no deities. More broadly defined, it is the rejection of belief in the existence of any deities, with or without an assertion that no deities exist. The broadest definition classifies atheism as the absence of belief that any deities exist.

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I am not sure if the people who are selecting "atheist" agree with my reasoning or my points, for what reasons they have of their own. However, I think the underlying thinking and stance I sort of laid out above explains why I naturally conclude as I do.

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

EDIT: Oh boy, the OP. An agnost is NOT a deist.

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I already said that in my first reply. I doubt he is going to change it.

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Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.[1] Agnosticism can be defined in various ways, and is sometimes used to indicate doubt or a skeptical approach to questions. In some senses, agnosticism is a stance about the differences between belief and knowledge, rather than about any specific claim or belief.

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Aka, Agnostics don't have a belief there is a god. However, they believe we do not have the knowledge as to assertain there is actually is or is not a god.

Arguably, it is classified as "weak atheism", because they actually possess no belief, but they do not adopt an null hypothesis that atheism possesses to reject the existence altogether. The null hypothesis is basically the idea there is nothing, no difference, etc, many athiests reject the belief because there is no knowledge of god, therefore, it is like me saying "I have fairies living at the bottom of my garden", without any proof that they are infact fairies at the bottom of my garden and I can't provide, then they hold the belief that I do not have any fairies at the bottom of my garden.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Whats up with all the Catholic bashing!! Maybe most of my Church will take it but you better watch out.

Yeah strike we may have our idols but at least we dont dance with snakes. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Strike

The only true christians are protestants, catholics are idol worshipers.

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That is such a broad and ridiculous statement i'm not sure whethe rto take you seriously.

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Oh, I would take SFTS very seriously. He hates Catholics. Me, a firm Catholic myself, founder of the Facebook group 'Benedict (pbuh) for EU president', am constantly outraged by Strike's Catho-bashing, by his perennial diatribes about (imagined) Catholic attacks on secular Texas.

I don't understand it. The guy's obviously got issues. Shame. Otherwise, he's a reasonable chap. :book:


Edit: meh, suppose I should add the disclaimer that all of the above is meant for entertainment purposes only.

Protestants tend to revile Catholics, until something of a spiritual crisis within the faith emerges, and then they actually take the advice of the Papacy... it's a funny dynamic.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

The best one I've heard someone describe themselves as is an apatheist. One who does not care if there is a God.

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ooohh *claps hands* that sounds like me! cheers CA.

and lol at Strike, i find myself in sympathy with that view speaking as a Brit.

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Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Well, agnostics are atheists, necessarily. I like the word "antitheist" a lot though.

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An agnostic is a person who doesn't know if there any gods or believes it is impossible to know. An atheist is someone who knows that there are no gods. It would be far more accurate to put the Christians and Muslims in with the Jews since they all worship the same god.

My particular brand of agnosticism is actually bordering on the apathetic, but since I am replying to a religious question here, I can't be completely apathetic can I :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

I personally dislike Catholics for what I view as archaic beliefs, but this is outweighed by my respect for the Catholic intellectual tradition and their lack of anti-intellectualism in comparison to other Christian denominations. In fact, Catholicism long stimulated scholasticism and sciences (as well as opposing the latter, for that matter, so it is mixed - but what matters is that Catholicism did inspire science, and it created the conditions which inspired such studies).

Sources: That is what Joseph Campbell said at least :shrug:

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Didn't the catholics burn heaps of books containing advanced knowledge (in comparison to their own) during the reconquista?
That's what we learned in highschool anyway, that the moors were quite advanced in fields like medicine and the catholics burned all their libraries etc. regardless.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

I am not sure if the people who are selecting "atheist" agree with my reasoning or my points, for what reasons they have of their own.

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I would vehemently agree or disagree, but I guess I'm just too much of an apatheist. I simply don't believe in (any concept of) a Christian God no more than I believe in re-incarnation or animism.

The conflicting notion to me is not atheist - 'Christian' deity. It is, rather, no belief - belief. I don't have a ready philosophy that disputes each and every single form of belief, every single god. The number of gods being virtually infinite - such is the scope of human imagination - it would be a practical impossibility too to have a ready negation of all of them.

I am simply atheistic towards all of them in much the same way a Christian is atheistic towards all of them. With the sole difference that I don't believe in one more god.

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Didn't the catholics burn heaps of books containing advanced knowledge (in comparison to their own) during the reconquista?
That's what we learned in highschool anyway, that the moors were quite advanced in fields like medicine and the catholics burned all their libraries etc. regardless.

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Yes but typically in the make us feel bad brand of western education they don't mention the libraries worth of books Christians saved from the ravaging barbarians of the dark ages nor the thousands of books that monks and other clergy wrote during this time. Even the crusade which is Christianity's worst moment (debatable in my mind) the Crusade's lasting legacy was the spread of culture and technology.

Edit: and thank you Louis for confusing me even further. I assume your comment was not serious as well. Ah well we know all Frenchmen are all Catholics they just try to appear more cultured and cosmopolitan :wink:

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and lol at Strike, i find myself in sympathy with that view speaking as a Brit.

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Please are you referring to COE? That was a political split more than anything else. Your sister church in the Us are Anglicans, no? Basically Catholics except you have women priest, which is a capital idea.

Imagine for a moment if the Church had given the king that divorce and he hadn't made the split....... Oh Mr. Turtledove I have your next idea

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

I personally dislike Catholics for what I view as archaic beliefs, but this is outweighed by my respect for the Catholic intellectual tradition and their lack of anti-intellectualism in comparison to other Christian denominations. In fact, Catholicism long stimulated scholasticism and sciences (as well as opposing the latter, for that matter, so it is mixed - but what matters is that Catholicism did inspire science, and it created the conditions which inspired such studies).

Sources: That is what Joseph Campbell said at least :shrug:

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I see it quite similiar. I also dislike Catholics for their archaic beliefs and conservative mentality. But the amount of stuff christian monks safed from antiquity is just amazing. Then comes all the culture, the support for art and architecture. If you travel through Europe nearly every monument has something to do with the Catholics.
It's always easy for "us" non-religion people wo wave the finger at the Roman church. But really you have to give em a lot of credit for many things.

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I see it quite similiar. I also dislike Catholics for their archaic beliefs and conservative mentality. But the amount of stuff christian monks safed from antiquity is just amazing. Then comes all the culture, the support for art and architecture. If you travel through Europe nearly every monument has something to do with the Catholics.
It's always easy for "us" non-religion people wo wave the finger at the Roman church. But really you have to give em a lot of credit for many things.

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Thank you I want to frame this. You don't have to like my faith, but it is nice for someone to acknowledgesome of the good we have done for the world.

and conservative catholicism....... maybe in some ways but many catholics vote liberally in the US (actually i think it is relatively evenly split.)

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That is such a broad and ridiculous statement i'm not sure whethe rto take you seriously.

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1. I don't dance with snakes, I'm not a pencoastal.

2. If you want to know what my church taught me please refer to this quote; “Life in Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love.”

3. Removed

4. Catholic=Yankee=Damned yellow bellied Communist

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I love how Catholics and Protestants have broken out in a fight in this thread.

It just speaks volumes.

i have never had a problem with a protestant in my life...... before now.

Edit: rather foolishly he links anglo-saxon to protestant. Hey the wasp ideals are over. I'm english too on my mothers side.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

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That could've been better. I would've have liked to see refrences to some of the following: Nascar, Meth, Wife beating, Obesity, Our low Iqs.

Not bad , the KKK refrences are outdated though

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Hey man, I spelled more than that correctly.
Clearly my post is meant to be taken in jest, Let's take a deep breath

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

Look, I had an Indonesian friend in 8th grade, I know how it generally is (very generally), but whatever it is, from what I heard was that Indonesia was on average much more religious than any average Western secular nation, and I did not think that one of the most crucial components of Islam escaped from you. But it says good things about you and your country IMHO, if you know so little about Islam ~;) - you can try to find out yourself why, or ask me if you give up :yes:

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That was the entire 8th grade always think about themself, no offence, a 8th grade students will most likely follow what his teacher said at school :wink:, no, to be honest, I was 21 years old, allready travelled to many parts of Indonesia, and you must know that most Indonesian aren't religious at all... yeah, it was a fact that religion is officially taught at school, and even it was a one important aspect to determine your graduation for most schools. BUT, Once they reach Highschool / University age, they'll grow either to become neglacting Religions, or become a fanatical one. Listen up, the fact that Indonesia is still a secular country lies in this important fact, most of didn't took religion seriously. I suggest you come here and see, wht kind of thigies sold at the market for open... yeah, beers and porks are still a common goodies, and most of my "muslim" friends still enjoy them. And everytime when the 5 times of muslim praying was up, only a handful of my muslim friends does the actual praying... the rest? they don't pray at all. You dare to call that behaviour religious? :wink:

Oh yeah, if you still want to said that was my "isolated incident" you should learn where I live, and I allready observe that behaviour everywhere... I lived in Bandung, west Java, a region which fanatical hardliners has a considerable influence. A region where islamic terrorists are highest, and the fact that west java are the province with highest incident of chruch and temple burning. But while islamic values are practiced in hard way for some men, most commoners are actually never become a religious person at all. The problem with this are the hard-liner muslims more often comes from the highly educated class and constantly spread the propaganda (Indonesian is a religious country).... that was a delibrate LIES.

BTW, of course, you may said my viewpoints are distorted because I was a "minority" group of Christians.... that's why I ask you to ask Sonic, as he was once hard liner muslims, but now he turns to be hedonistic emo guy..

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That could've been better. I would've have liked to see refrences to some of the following: Nascar, Meth, Wife beating, Obesity, Our low Iqs.

Not bad , the KKK refrences are outdated though


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Hey man, I spelled more than that correctly.
Clearly my post is meant to be taken in jest, Let's take a deep breath

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If you were kidding i am very sorry. I am very sensitive about my heritage though.

And i couldnt mention the nascar.......... because i watch sometimes *hangs head in shame*

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Meth, Wife beating, Obesity, Our low Iqs.

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I'll work on that.

Personally i found you evolution of the yankee rather good. especially since it ended with cowardly communists. Really very cliched and insulting. Also enraging if you think someone is serious.

by the way im not from the northeast and my father, while from conneticut is ashamed and tells everyone he was born somewhere else. I'd say where but it would be rather hard to believe.

now that i think of it i should have brought up texas. dam

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

the KKK

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See, I knew it. Your posts have long konvinced me of your pyromaniac Saturday night hobbies and diverse use of bedsheets. :no:


Have you people still not learned the value of diversity and understanding??

https://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6279/kkkbj.jpg

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

If you were kidding i am very sorry. I am very sensitive about my heritage though.

And i couldnt mention the nascar.......... because i watch sometimes *hangs head in shame*

I'll work on that.

Personally i found you evolution of the yankee rather good. especially since it ended with cowardly communists. Really very cliched and insulting. Also enraging if you think someone is serious.

by the way im not from the northeast and my father, while from conneticut is ashamed and tells everyone he was born somewhere else. I'd say where but it would be rather hard to believe.

now that i think of it i should have brought up texas. dam

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Its fine man, It was a mistake on my part thinking you would just "know". My aplogies

Anyone outside of Texas is a yankee to a Texan.

@ Louis :love:

By the way i got into Texas Tech. And Texas A&M. after this little conversation i think it best if i don't go though. :laugh:

And i lived in Texas for a couple years. Corpus Christi actually before my father retired.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

By the way i got into Texas Tech. And Texas A&M. after this little conversation i think it best if i don't go though. :laugh:

And i lived in Texas for a couple years. Corpus Christi actually before my father retired.

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Check your PMs

God forbid we derail this theard /joke ~;)

I am now finished i hope you enjoyed the debacle of the young american come close to killing somebody.

Please keep all discussion civil. Whilst I understand that the above comments were in jest, if they are please remember to use smilies, or use a disclaimer as Louis did in his earlier post. It is very easy for someone to skim through this thread and think that the stereotyping is entirely serious.

I thought this is interessting. Just to make it clear; this is only statistics:

https://i.imgur.com/kpb5A.png

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Please are you referring to COE? That was a political split more than anything else. Your sister church in the Us are Anglicans, no? Basically Catholics except you have women priest, which is a capital idea.

Imagine for a moment if the Church had given the king that divorce and he hadn't made the split....... Oh Mr. Turtledove I have your next idea

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yup, and the reason why it is so awesome (speaking as an apatheist) is that it does not submit to the authority of rome. nuff said.

that would have been a great shame, we achieved awesome things ever since henry found away to keep on chucking his junk around!

Buddhist (gosh).

Specifically, Tantrayana Esoteric Buddhism

Even more specifically, I'm following the teachings of Kobo Daishi, who founded Koyasan Shingon-shu.

I find those statistics to be rather strange. Why use average IQ instead of percentage of college graduates (also note how some of the same results are coloured differently)? It also seems to believe that religiosity affects these other things whereas they are all in fact emblematic of bigger social problems.

Hmmm, Atheists bar graph color is pink. There's a lesson in there somewhere, but I can't put my finger on it...

The irony is that the “only true Christian (tm)” is only comfortable if rebuking other Christians for their heresy whilst defending his own reading of the Bible. This goes somewhat more for the “Protestant” kind of Christianity than Catholicism; but really that is what Christianity has been about since its inception.

Anyway, myself when it comes to religion I find it fascinating but maintain a “what the heck do I know anyway” idea. So the last option fits me perfectly.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

I find those statistics to be rather strange. Why use average IQ instead of percentage of college graduates (also note how some of the same results are coloured differently)? It also seems to believe that religiosity affects these other things whereas they are all in fact emblematic of bigger social problems.

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Looking at statistics is interpreting them. This always means that two people looking at one statistic will have three opinions about it.

I do wonder about the conection of religion and IQ. There seems to be something to it. Looking at the scandinavian countries with the worlds best education system and IQ percentage and the high percentage of agnostics/atheist. (correct me if I'm wrong, but afaik only 40% of the population in scandinavia belongs to a registered church.)
Another example is the infamous fact that about 93% of the members in the National Academy of Sciences are agnostics/atheists as well.

I'm not saying that people whoe believe in god/s are idiots by any means and I very well respect religion as I posted before.

I would say that is a result of higher education rather than higher IQ. The two go hand-in-hand generally but only an effective education system will bring out critical thinking skills, which may be lacking in some.

To return to the whole Catholic (*cough*dirty Papist scum*cough* ~;)~;p) thing, I admire Jesuits for their intelligence and learning while despising everything else in the Catholic church. Hey, I was raised by radical atheists coming from a hardcore Reformed region, bite me ~:smoking:

EDIT: Fixiwee, AFAIK in Scandinavia the vast majority of citizens are registered members of the local Lutheran churches, because every Scandinavian country (this does not include Finland) has a state religion, and babies are immediately registered as church members upon birth (which would make me rage as a parent, as an aside). Chuch attendance is exceptionally low, however.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

I would say that is a result of higher education rather than higher IQ. The two go hand-in-hand generally but only an effective education system will bring out critical thinking skills, which may be lacking in some.

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Yeah I agree. You can swap IQ in my post with education. I was never a big fan of the IQ index.

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Hey, I was raised by radical atheists coming from a hardcore Reformed region, bite me

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I would, but it goes against the theory of ahimsa.

I remember about Hooahguy...
So at least we can conclude that is no muslim here... :grin:

OOps... I just forgot LeftEyeNine

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Why use average IQ instead of percentage of college graduates (also note how some of the same results are coloured differently)?

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Because both don't say a whole lot?

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Originally Posted by Fixiwee

I thought this is interessting. Just to make it clear; this is only statistics:

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Correlation /=/ cuasation.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

I would say that is a result of higher education rather than higher IQ. The two go hand-in-hand generally but only an effective education system will bring out critical thinking skills, which may be lacking in some.

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I wouldn't even say critical thinking skills. It sounds more like culture. How else would you explain the wide discrepencies in atheism between western countries?

It doesn't matter how smart you are, you'll stick with religion if you were brought up that way and it works for you.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Correlation /=/ cuasation.

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Ditch the cliché... You are not making an argument, but simply throwing words around. Or was the misspelling intentional, meaning you are trolling? Gah, one can never tell with you, Strike :tongue:.

That many correlations are not a coincidence. Fixi was not explicitly naming any cause of the negative statistics, and even hinting towards something would not work with that poll as there are so many factors. I would assume poverty leads to low intelligence, crime, and religion - since it appeals to the simple-minded more than it does to an intellectual, and religion makes tough lives a whole lot more bearable. What is so wrong with what I just said, from a statistical and sociological point of view?

I find it strangely suspicious that there is such a large IQ difference, but then again, abstract reasoning, or what the today's tests are, is not a strength of rural and poverty-stricken folk... This is also why IQ scores are rising, a.k.a the Flynn Effect - because as the societies grow more sophisticated, especially in technological terms, abstract reasoning becomes more lucid.

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Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus

. I would assume poverty leads to low intelligence, crime, and religion -

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Ding Ding Ding!!!!!

Couple that with the stronger church tradition in the south and you get those statistics. I would argue many people here just say they are christians simply because saying you're not one is considered something of a social fopah.

Being religous does not make you dumb fat, it's about the culture in which you are raised. The south has always looked to the church as the center of social, not just religous life. It is only natural for one to be a christian becuase so much of life is centered around it.

I can't spell and don't care to proofread

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Ding Ding Ding!!!!!

Couple that with the stronger church tradition in the south and you get those statistics. I would argue many people here just say they are christians simply because saying you're not one is considered something of a social fopah.

Being religous does not make you dumb fat, it's about the culture in which you are raised. The south has always looked to the church as the center of social, not just religous life. It is only natural for one to be a christian becuase so much of life is centered around it.

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Well yeah, that is what I always said... Poverty->low IQ->hardship+tradition->voilà, you are now religious.

The trouble is, once someone is religious they tend to become even more recalcitrant in their stand against science or reason (sorry, I am singling out mainly Southerners here, mainly Baptists :sweatdrop:), and they pass on the religion, which coupled with poverty creates a vicious circle. Remove the religion, and the cycle is slightly easier to change, although not by much. But then the crime-rate can easily rise... Everything is a double-edged sword.

What is really disturbing though, are the religious folk who are not poor, but are ignorant as a result of their religion :sad:. That can be blamed on religion. At least the poor have a very good excuse - I do not expect someone living in such hardship in the Deep South to be a liberal, atheist intellectual. It is not their fault, and they are good people because of what they are, rather than what they are not.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

I can't spell and don't care to proofread

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Okay, I just remembered that often times when you jokingly bait people, you misspell things intentionally.

I would liem to argue that with you. poverty = poor education not low iq. There are chances someone who is poor (desperately poor) would be ill educated and not be able to read. and then they would be unable to complete an iq test. iq and conditional intelligence are two different things.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

I would liem to argue that with you. poverty = poor education not low iq. There are chances someone who is poor (desperately poor) would be ill educated and not be able to read. and then they would be unable to complete an iq test. iq and conditional intelligence are two different things.

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No, but they are too closely correlated. You need a special environment for IQ development. It is perfectly possible to be sharp and yet ignorant. Ignorance and stupidity are very different things. But poverty-stricken rural environments tend to produce inhospitable conditions for the development of the mind, and so you reap what you sow. People born into working-class families feature normal intelligence, but rural areas in poor regions tend to be sad exceptions. There is a line, below which high IQ tends to be more or less unattainable (very unlikely). This line is different, depending on each country and the culture of the family.

The really big kick in the teeth is that IQ tests, as I said before, are measures of abstract reasoning - which is the standard measure of intellect. This is severely hampered by the environment of poverty. But let us not jump on the bandwagon that IQ tests are horribly flawed and that they measure too little to be of use. IQ tests correlate very well with all sorts of other legitimate tests measuring cognitive performance.

You are still speaking of educational intelligence though.

Say there are twins born in rural west virginia. One grows up with her poor, alcoholic, parents. The other is adopted by a rich family in boston. Are they both going to be stupid because of where they are born. Or is the education going to make a difference (assuming the one twin gets a good education)

Iq tests are so subjective. I consistently get high scores on one test but on another my score drops ten points. (both legitimate tests). Ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Centurion1

Y

Iq tests are so subjective. I consistently get high scores on one test but on another my score drops ten points. (both legitimate tests). Ridiculous.

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Yeah, 'cause a teen like you and me definitely knows better than more than a century of scientific observation, experimentation, and gradual improvement :rolleyes:... Look, I make no secret that I dislike anti-intellectualism, whether intentional or semi-accidental. I am not saying that you are being anti-intellectualism here, but statistics show that IQ test correlate very well, and they are therefore still used. If I had a pence/penny (preferably a pence though - they are worth more ~;)) for every anti-IQ test story...