A letter to CA: Release of the source code

R:TW Source Code Letter


This thread is created for the purpose of asking CA for the source code of Rome: Total War (Barbarian Invasion/Alexander). The most important things we need are arguments. We need not only arguments in favor of releasing the source code but also arguments contra for the purpose of debunking/minimising it.


Things we need:

- Arguments (Pro/Contra)
- An emailadress/postaladress to send it to.
- Good grammar (native speaker) to compile it
- Respect and humility when writing to CA.
- Following the proper letter conventions
- (Signatures?)


Okay, I need all of you to help and contribute arguments.

Arguments pro:
* Increases lifespan of a game
* Ability to revive a game (Doom)
* Game is old, it won't give away valuable information because it's outdated.
* More sales, much more sales (if correctly modded)
* Many people delay the purchase of MedII Gold until EBII is released, mods have a great impact on sales.

Arguments contra:

* No direct profits (but indirect! And money is money.)
* Cracks and Keygens will be produced (they're all over the internet anyway)
* It will give valuable coding info to the competition (RTW is outdated)
* No broad demand (Counter Strike Source is one of the most played games ever)
* DLC competition (there is no DLC for RTW)

more is needed.

I think it's way too early for that. There are still a lot of people playing RTW and they are still making decent money with it, but releasing the source code means giving the game away for free to all those who may probably still buy it. There is a number of people who got on the TW-train with later games, who go on trying older installments and it will remain that way for a while to come.
I don't understand what you mean by "indirect profits".

Edit: I think I may have misunderstood. You are not talking about a public release, but about giving the code to a limited team of independent programmers, like what for example Paradox has done with, urm, not sure which game it was...?

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Originally Posted by Lysimachos

I don't understand what you mean by "indirect profits".

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Better mods = more sales

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Originally Posted by Lysimachos

they are still making decent money with it

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With the €5 they ask for it, I'm surprised if it covered more than the production cost of the disc.

I believe the impact of modding is regularly overestimated. To my knowledge Sega doesn't release their sales figures, but I'm positive that the vast majority of buyers never even enters a community where mods are distributed and an even greater majority never plays a single mod. I know, EB has impressive download figures, but we can savely assume a) that many downloaders have downloaded more than once or twice and b) that a huge percentage of RTW-mod-users has tried EB at one point or another, as it clearly is one of the most popular ones.

As for the production cost, you can get blanks at retail for less than 0,20 € a piece, bought from the producer it's even less and I don't think putting that software on the disc is such an expensice endeavor. I believe, after the development costs are earned back, even a 5 € copy earns the publisher a profit margin other trades can only dream of.

It's not like I wouldn't want them to release the source code, I just can't believe Sega (and to my understanding they would be the ones to decide, not CA) would do that in, say, the next decade or so.

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With the €5 they ask for it, I'm surprised if it covered more than the production cost of the disc.

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Yes, it does cover more. However, I don't think that they produce those disks anymore.

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* Cracks and Keygens will be produced (they're all over the internet anyway)

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This is a flawed argument. It's like giving a thief your money, because other thieves have already stolen a part of your money. It doesn't really make sense.

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Originally Posted by Lysimachos

I believe the impact of modding is regularly overestimated. To my knowledge Sega doesn't release their sales figures, but I'm positive that the vast majority of buyers never even enters a community where mods are distributed and an even greater majority never plays a single mod. I know, EB has impressive download figures, but we can savely assume a) that many downloaders have downloaded more than once or twice and b) that a huge percentage of RTW-mod-users has tried EB at one point or another, as it clearly is one of the most popular ones.

As for the production cost, you can get blanks at retail for less than 0,20 € a piece, bought from the producer it's even less and I don't think putting that software on the disc is such an expensice endeavor. I believe, after the development costs are earned back, even a 5 € copy earns the publisher a profit margin other trades can only dream of.

It's not like I wouldn't want them to release the source code, I just can't believe Sega (and to my understanding they would be the ones to decide, not CA) would do that in, say, the next decade or so.

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At least we can try, if we don't we'll never get it.

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Originally Posted by Hax

This is a flawed argument. It's like giving a thief your money, because other thieves have already stolen a part of your money. It doesn't really make sense.

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No, there are keygens on the internet anyway for all possible patches, releasing the source code will not change this in any way.

Didn't the EB team already got rebuffed on the subect with a not-so-nice legal threat, "if"?

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Originally Posted by siegfriedfr

Didn't the EB team already got rebuffed on the subect with a not-so-nice legal threat, "if"?

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What are you talking about?

Two things: first of all I doubt CA actually owns the exclusive rights to the source code of RTW: I doubt SEGA would be comfortable without actually holding the rights to the works they publish.
As for the money: €5,- includes a lot of profit. Take for instance the CDs every commercial Linux company and their dogs appear to be selling: in the example that is 100 CDs for £80,85 including shipping. That means £0.81 buys you a CD and delivery, and presumably it still includes a profit margin.

So, no-one is interested in trying?

Ok, so here's a slightly alternative idea to this. Talking about indirect profits might not be such a strong argument, and - much as Europa Barbarorum is a work of art, the team responsible for it has expanded and spent many, many man-hours putting together its sequel, Europa Barbarorum 2 (which many of us are looking forward to, I believe..)

Perhaps what might be of more use would be a letter requesting some form of limited coding release of aspects of the M2:TW engine. The people to ask, of course, would be the team themselves, as to what aspects of the coding would be most useful to them (perhaps with some input from the community). CA woyuld then release limited coding to members in the team who could then alter the coding. Or, they request certain alterations in the specific codes. This is where it gets tricky. They then give that altered coding back to CA and recognise their rights to it. In order to download EB2 one would need this altered coding, which they could sell (for a reasonable fee) as a download. Thus, they see a direct profit.

There would be, of course, questions about the status of the mod (it wouldn't, in effect, any longer be free). It rather depends upon how much the EB community are willing to fork out, and whether the modding team are willing to give up the independence of their work... just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

So, no-one is interested in trying?

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To the best of my knowledge during my lurking on various TW related forums, the TW community (might be the EB team itself) approached CA at some point on such matter and got a legal threat in response.

TW games are lackluster titles developped for quick money-making.
I didnt play the vanilla campaigns more than once or twice before being bored. Whereas i've played dozens of EB campaigns and i still want more.

CA simply doesn't need the net to buzz about how bad their titles are, while people working for free beat them square in content-making.

Biggest con:

GFX aside, most game mechanics are relatively simple implementations from a coding standpoint.
If this happens, once the community gets well acquainted with the code it would take less than one year to code in M2:TW-like features and in a couple year it would reach a good enough gameplay that it would represent a serious menace to commercial sequels.

Two examples: Descent: Freespace 2 and Jagged Alliance 2.
Try the open source versions of the games and tell me square that the level of refinement reached in the gameplay can be matched by a company on a budget

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Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

So, no-one is interested in trying?

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Well, I'm distantly familiar with an attempt to make Atari/Firaxis release the source code for their Civilization III (which, btw. is three years older than RTW). I think the people who spearheaded that attempt have put quite some effort in it and ended with a lot of disappointment and frustration. So, maybe it isn't worth it, especially considering how forthcoming CA has been toward their modding community in the latest titles.

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Originally Posted by Zarax

Biggest con:

GFX aside, most game mechanics are relatively simple implementations from a coding standpoint.
If this happens, once the community gets well acquainted with the code it would take less than one year to code in M2:TW-like features and in a couple year it would reach a good enough gameplay that it would represent a serious menace to commercial sequels.

Two examples: Descent: Freespace 2 and Jagged Alliance 2.
Try the open source versions of the games and tell me square that the level of refinement reached in the gameplay can be matched by a company on a budget

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This is true. For every company, there is a point where more effort doesn't equal more sales and at that point they usually have to stop. Dedicated Fans don't have that limit and thus may be able to achieve something greater than any company would be willing to.

CA won't even release the source for STW/MTW, so I don't think you have much hope.

Good luck anyway.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by Asai Nagamasa

CA won't even release the source for STW/MTW, so I don't think you have much hope.

Good luck anyway.

:bow:

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Thank you

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Originally Posted by Lysimachos

Well, I'm distantly familiar with an attempt to make Atari/Firaxis release the source code for their Civilization III (which, btw. is three years older than RTW). I think the people who spearheaded that attempt have put quite some effort in it and ended with a lot of disappointment and frustration. So, maybe it isn't worth it, especially considering how forthcoming CA has been toward their modding community in the latest titles.



This is true. For every company, there is a point where more effort doesn't equal more sales and at that point they usually have to stop. Dedicated Fans don't have that limit and thus may be able to achieve something greater than any company would be willing to.

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So yes, this will only increase CA's popularity.

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Originally Posted by Zarax

Biggest con:

GFX aside, most game mechanics are relatively simple implementations from a coding standpoint.
If this happens, once the community gets well acquainted with the code it would take less than one year to code in M2:TW-like features and in a couple year it would reach a good enough gameplay that it would represent a serious menace to commercial sequels.

Two examples: Descent: Freespace 2 and Jagged Alliance 2.
Try the open source versions of the games and tell me square that the level of refinement reached in the gameplay can be matched by a company on a budget

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This will make it even better when this succeeds, and it will boost sales for R:TW.

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Originally Posted by siegfriedfr

To the best of my knowledge during my lurking on various TW related forums, the TW community (might be the EB team itself) approached CA at some point on such matter and got a legal threat in response.

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Can someone provide me with a link/confirm this? This sounds unbelievable!

The problem with all this is that, as it may rise their selling rate of RTW an M2TW games, it will also, and unfortunately, raise the illegal download of the games... One solution is, as stated previously, to make the mod not free... but then, those like me who do not posess any credit card (and who don't have the intention of getting one neither) would find themselve deprived of a wonderful mod that was, at the base, ment to be free of access... (minus the cost of the vanilla game, of corse)

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Originally Posted by Duguntz

The problem with all this is that, as it may rise their selling rate of RTW an M2TW games, it will also, and unfortunately, raise the illegal download of the games... One solution is, as stated previously, to make the mod not free... but then, those like me who do not posess any credit card (and who don't have the intention of getting one neither) would find themselve deprived of a wonderful mod that was, at the base, ment to be free of access... (minus the cost of the vanilla game, of corse)

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Of course, when a game gets popular the sales and the pirated copies will rise, that's just something of modern times, but that doesn't take away that there will be more sales. And poeple who download games sometimes buy the game because they like it, like a full demo. And making the mod(s) not free, that wont take away the fact that RTW will be downloaded more, it just means that the mods will be pirated with it.

The fact remains that sales would rise, and that's a positive, and of course the mods should be free.

This will never ever happen. I know its sad and everything but, with the utmost respect here, all your reasons 'pro' are quite childish and very self centred. The game itself is still being sold either individually or in packs; the extremely small proportion of people who haven't bought M2TW and are waiting for EB2 to come out do not represent a worthwhile investment to simply give their game code away.

Furthermore, without trying to portray them as a big evil megacorporation (they are not evil or mega) they quite simply do not care about you. I can imagine there would be a greater care factor if you wrote to China and told them to stop industrilising coz the high arsenic content of their coal that they burn for power is starting to negatively affect the health of people living in California and increase the rate of vicious cancers from the massive pollution dustcloud that is spreading across the ocean.

Ok, that was a bit off topic but it states my point well. The care factor is zero. Not becasue they are evil but because you mean nothing to them. For that matter, I mean nothing to them as well and I own 2 copies of rome, 2 of MTW and 1 copy of every other of thier games as well as all expansions and DLC. We are just a drop in the ocean.:shame:

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Originally Posted by Blxz

This will never ever happen. I know its sad and everything but, with the utmost respect here, all your reasons 'pro' are quite childish and very self centred. The game itself is still being sold either individually or in packs; the extremely small proportion of people who haven't bought M2TW and are waiting for EB2 to come out do not represent a worthwhile investment to simply give their game code away.

Furthermore, without trying to portray them as a big evil megacorporation (they are not evil or mega) they quite simply do not care about you. I can imagine there would be a greater care factor if you wrote to China and told them to stop industrilising coz the high arsenic content of their coal that they burn for power is starting to negatively affect the health of people living in California and increase the rate of vicious cancers from the massive pollution dustcloud that is spreading across the ocean.

Ok, that was a bit off topic but it states my point well. The care factor is zero. Not becasue they are evil but because you mean nothing to them. For that matter, I mean nothing to them as well and I own 2 copies of rome, 2 of MTW and 1 copy of every other of thier games as well as all expansions and DLC. We are just a drop in the ocean.:shame:

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So, CA doesn't care about their customers, is that what you're saying? And how are my arguments 'selfish and childish'?

No, it just means that CA will only care if they see a large enough target, which means enough to move at least $50000 to cover development costs.

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Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

So, CA doesn't care about their customers, is that what you're saying? And how are my arguments 'selfish and childish'?

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Don't be defensive about this. I enjoy your postings and generally they are both interesting and informative but I simply said it as it is. We are but a drop in the ocean when it comes to how they see the world.

I live and work in an environment where I get to see the top echalons of a business that is disconnected (not in a bad way just in a size way) from its customers and understand the situation more or less. What would happen is your letter would be sent to a secretary or something that would take a single look at it and then delete or bin it. If by some small chance it ever made it to the 'boss' it would not even be considered, most likely. If they did decide to call a board meeting, or get the interested parties together or whatever large scale discussion would be required to consider a request such as this they would immediately jump on all your 'pro's and cons' and would be much more harsh than I was. Even if they DID somehow decide that yes your points are valid it then comes down to the point of who would they make the owner of their new free game? You? Me? The 'EB team' as a whole? Maybe Foot? Unlikely. Having the source code means you OWN the game and all the information nehind it. And if you did own everything what would you do with it?

I could continue all night but the important thing to remember here is that your letter would NEVER get past the first hurdle anyway so all the rest I put down is just my brain being buggered up by my drug of choice.

Once again, i meant no disrespect to you I am just being as direct as possible.

A manager doesn't ask your motives, only how much money it's worth to you.

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Originally Posted by Blxz

Even if they DID somehow decide that yes your points are valid it then comes down to the point of who would they make the owner of their new free game? You? Me? The 'EB team' as a whole? Maybe Foot? Unlikely. Having the source code means you OWN the game and all the information nehind it. And if you did own everything what would you do with it?

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Not quite true - releasing source code means making it publicly available under the GPL as ID Software have done with their older game engines up to the Quake3 engine. You don't have to give anything to an individual - it's just a matter of licencing and making the code available.

:bow:

I don't give myself a high succes-percentage either, but at least I want to try it. We have a Dutch proverb: 'Niet geschoten, altijd mis' which means : "Never shot is always missed". Maybe I have 1-2% but if I don't send it I have 0%.

And to blzx, I didn't mean to get attention, just to get more arguments from you, which succeeded ;)

I wish you luck, Herr skullhead, and I admire your passion. Perhaps even share it.

My guess is there is more at stake for both SEGA and CA in their driver design than they are willing to simply part with for nothing. Software is proprietary, and they may have some trade secrets they still want to protect even though the game is several years old. They may be using some driver engine features in their newer games that were originally created for the older ones. There are some fundamental similarities in performance and character in all their games regardless of how improved the animation which lends me to think they're still using some basic core engine design that is unchanged from their very first product release. But that's just my opinion. Creating competitors by giving away proprietary product design is not a recipe for continued business success. To us RTW is great fun and a full time hobby/obsession - to SEGA and CA it's their bread and butter. It puts food on their table, pays their rent, etc.

Personally I would love it if they kept the current game with just a few minor upgrades to unit 'skins,' Spartans for example; maybe add a unit of heavy infantry to Parthia similar to what Armenia has, give the Greek cities a heavy cavalry unit upgrade, etc. I admire the work the XGM people did on their expanded map, their historical research and their unit designs. I would love to see an expanded map in RTW with more cities, more of Africa and more of Asia; redevelop Macedonia, Thrace and Pontus as full-fledged factions. And maybe even insert some of the historic figures of the era as faction members much as they did for M2TW Kingdoms.

Alas, the whole point may be moot in a couple years as I've heard a rumor that they're considering an R2TW. They appear to be ready to release an S2TW. And in spite of the fact that the British have discontinued the traditional study of the classics as de rigueur in their public education system, there is still a passion for the classical era in the culture. They will release a new version of some ancient warfare game eventually.

I do love this game!

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Originally Posted by Guyus Germanicus

I wish you luck, Herr skullhead, and I admire your passion. Perhaps even share it.

My guess is there is more at stake for both SEGA and CA in their driver design than they are willing to simply part with for nothing. Software is proprietary, and they may have some trade secrets they still want to protect even though the game is several years old. They may be using some driver engine features in their newer games that were originally created for the older ones. There are some fundamental similarities in performance and character in all their games regardless of how improved the animation which lends me to think they're still using some basic core engine design that is unchanged from their very first product release. But that's just my opinion. Creating competitors by giving away proprietary product design is not a recipe for continued business success. To us RTW is great fun and a full time hobby/obsession - to SEGA and CA it's their bread and butter. It puts food on their table, pays their rent, etc.

Personally I would love it if they kept the current game with just a few minor upgrades to unit 'skins,' Spartans for example; maybe add a unit of heavy infantry to Parthia similar to what Armenia has, give the Greek cities a heavy cavalry unit upgrade, etc. I admire the work the XGM people did on their expanded map, their historical research and their unit designs. I would love to see an expanded map in RTW with more cities, more of Africa and more of Asia; redevelop Macedonia, Thrace and Pontus as full-fledged factions. And maybe even insert some of the historic figures of the era as faction members much as they did for M2TW Kingdoms.

Alas, the whole point may be moot in a couple years as I've heard a rumor that they're considering an R2TW. They appear to be ready to release an S2TW. And in spite of the fact that the British have discontinued the traditional study of the classics as de rigueur in their public education system, there is still a passion for the classical era in the culture. They will release a new version of some ancient warfare game eventually.

I do love this game!

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Thank you for your support :bow:
You should check 'Europa Barbarorum' (europabarbarorum.com) it has exactly what you want.

I do support you skull, but if they relase the source code there is 2 biggest impact that either one could happened (but not both)
1. The modding community for RTW grows, and that made CA extremely honoured with that, but at the cost that nobody won't even look for their Rome2TW... because EB is far - far - far better than this, and to "solve" this, they wrote a letter of invitation to every EB members to work as their official staffs with payments of $1000 per month... well... quite costly isn't it?
2. The modding community for RTW grows, but unfortunely, one of their biggest rival, with a little better reputation, just copypaste the code, make it simplet game, better graphics, and appaling to modders (but appealing to larger sections of noob gamers like one that play ******** or *********... and heck.... the Total war series got exact noobish carbon copy that have anime like legionaries and phalangitai instead of proper one.... sega knows that very well, because one of their rival is such pointless company that do any dirty trick to made their game gather more noobs and appals expericenced one... well, you know who I meant... another Japanese video game maker that was really ridiculous but rich

But if they do that, that must bring a great honour to CA themself.... welll, and maybe we can exchange that by making CA honouring title such as "world Total War" or something (when they lift the map and faction limitations problem)

I, too, wish you luck but these companies are a lot like dragons.......they don't like to part with anything from their hoards, even if they are just sitting on them like a bunch of 'shinies'.

I believe there is a CA employee on the .ORG who is frequently online, I want to know what he thinks about this.

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Originally Posted by Skullheadhq

I believe there is a CA employee on the .ORG who is frequently online, I want to know what he thinks about this.

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if you can find him, ask him. :shrug: