Obama's Afghanistan deadline gives Taliban sustenance, US general warns

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Obama's Afghanistan deadline gives Taliban sustenance, US general warns

Marine Corps commander General James Conway's comments come amid deepening US public concern at rising death toll

Marine Corps chief General James Conway is the latest US military official to question President Obama's July 2011 deadline for the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan.

President Barack Obama's decision to set a date for the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan has given the Taliban a morale boost by allowing them to believe that the end of the insurgency is already in sight, a senior US general has warned.

General James Conway, the Marine Corps commander, said the July 2011 deadline could backfire, and that he expected marines to remain in Afghanistan beyond next year.

"In some ways, we think right now it is probably giving our enemy sustenance," he said. "In fact we've intercepted communications that say, 'Hey, you know, we only need to hold out for so long.' "

Conway, who is about to retire, made his blunt assessment amid increasing criticism of Obama's war strategy and deepening public concern over the rising US death toll in the country. Earlier this month, the new commander of international forces in Afghanistan, General David Petraeus, said he would not be bound by Obama's timetable.

Supporters of Obama's plan to start withdrawing forces from Afghanistan next year — conditions permitting — say it conveys a much-needed sense of urgency to Kabul. Afghans, they argue, must quickly swell the ranks of their security forces for a gradual handover.

Critics say the strategy has backfired, signalling to the Taliban that the US is preparing to wind down the war while setting unrealistic expectations among Americans about the pace of progress.

Conway, quoting one of his commanders, told reporters: "We can either lose fast or win slow."

The general's remarks are likely to fan criticism of Obama's plans in the run-up to US congressional elections in November.

The timetable for withdrawal is also certain to come under close scrutiny in a White House strategy review in December, which Obama called for last year when he announced the July 2011 deadline and 30,000 additional troops.

"We know the president was talking to several audiences at the same time when he made his comments on July 2011," Conway told reporters at the Pentagon. "Though I certainly believe that some American units somewhere in Afghanistan will turn over responsibilities to Afghanistan security forces in 2011, I do not think they will be marines."

Violence across Afghanistan has reached record levels despite the presence of almost 150,000 US and Nato troops, who have stepped up operations after the Taliban insurgency spread from the south and east into once relatively peaceful areas of the north and west.

Conway said he believed the Taliban were in for a surprise once they realised next July that US forces would be remaining — and in large numbers. That, he said, would damage the "enemy psyche".


One of the biggest challenges facing the US military was winning US public support for the war. "I sense our country is increasingly growing tired of the war," said Conway, pointing to opinion polls showing unfavourable views of the war in Britain and the US.

"I don't think that we have done a strong enough job in convincing the American people that there are good and just reasons why we have to destroy the al-Qaida and the associated Taliban in Afghanistan."

Conway's comments are the latest acknowledgment by top US military officials of the challenges in Afghanistan, which appear to minimise the likelihood of any substantial change in the conflict by next July.

One of those challenges is training Afghan troops to take over from US forces as they withdraw. US Lieutenant General William Caldwell said this week that training of Afghan forces still faced big hurdles. Afghanistan's police and military would not be ready to take the lead in more than isolated pockets of the country until late October 2011.

The Afghan Taliban issued a statement yesterday rejecting some recent claims of US progress in the war. It said attacks were increasing around the capital and in their heartland in the south.

"Stop sacrificing your sons and daughters for a war which is unwinnable," said a spokesman in a statement emailed to media by the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, the title used by the Taliban when they ruled Afghanistan from 1996 to 2001.

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Yet another military leader has stated the obvious - that while Coalition troops are fighting and dying in Afghanistan, the President's political calculations are undermining their efforts.

This was pretty obvious when the President made his now-infamous West Point speech, but at the time it was argued that announcing a timeline for withdrawal was a super smart idea to wrangle the Afghan government into competency. While it is now patently obvious that Obama is helping the Taliban, is there any evidence that Kabul is at least acting more responsibly?

I am violently opposed to reading multi-paragraph quotes in italics. This is clearly a violation of good usage and typography; italics are meant for emphasis, not for ease and comprehension over long passages. I realize that using certain quote functions on this board create a cul-de-sac of italics, in which you can code [n] all you want and never get anywhere, but this does not excuse such a lengthy abuse of itals. Indeed, it just shows that the wrong framing element was used initially, due to a tragic lack of consideration for the reader. [ex] was available, as was [indent] and [spoil], but no, the OP resorted to [quote], despite the aid and comfort this gives to the enemies of good layout and typography.

The horror ... the horror ...

Why'd you guys invade Iraq in the first place? You should have concentrated your efforts in the 'Ghan.

Idiots.

If only we had given it another 9 years we could have won guys...

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

If only we had given it another 9 years we could have won guys...

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Or you could give it another nine years and win, couldn't you?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Or you could give it another nine years and win, couldn't you?

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Wait, what?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Wait, what?

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I think what PVC is saying, and is absent from the above Obama-bashing, is that this deadline was mostly put in place to placate the US public -whose appetite for continued war in Afghhanistan continues to thin.

The points made above regarding both forcing the Afghan gov to pull its finger out and also giving the Taliban something to aim for are also valid, but lets not forget that the will of the US public -and any political exploitation by US politicans promising to end the occupation (as it could be argued Obama did) are as crucial from a medium/long term strategic point of view.

Here's to the Afghan Army: cheers!

Best of luck, you poor bastards.

Any way, if no date would have been said, I am not sure that “you will fight until we don’t when” is really a good signal to the troops and relatives…
And another general would have come and blame the President that no time table is set and all this is due to the lack of professionalism of the Man in Charge…
As said long time ago (by Clémenceau, I think), war is a too serious business to be let to the militaries…

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I am violently opposed to reading multi-paragraph quotes in italics. This is clearly a violation of good usage and typography; italics are meant for emphasis, not for ease and comprehension over long passages. I realize that using certain quote functions on this board create a cul-de-sac of italics, in which you can code [n] all you want and never get anywhere, but this does not excuse such a lengthy abuse of itals. Indeed, it just shows that the wrong framing element was used initially, due to a tragic lack of consideration for the reader. [ex] was available, as was [indent] and [spoil], but no, the OP resorted to [quote, despite the aid and comfort this gives to the enemies of good layout and typography.

The horror ... the horror ...

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They say the eyes are the first to go with age. :shame:

Here's the article again for those who aren't up to reading italics anymore.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Obama's Afghanistan deadline gives Taliban sustenance, US general warns

Marine Corps commander General James Conway's comments come amid deepening US public concern at rising death toll

Marine Corps chief General James Conway is the latest US military official to question President Obama's July 2011 deadline for the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan.

President Barack Obama's decision to set a date for the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan has given the Taliban a morale boost by allowing them to believe that the end of the insurgency is already in sight, a senior US general has warned.

General James Conway, the Marine Corps commander, said the July 2011 deadline could backfire, and that he expected marines to remain in Afghanistan beyond next year.

"In some ways, we think right now it is probably giving our enemy sustenance," he said. "In fact we've intercepted communications that say, 'Hey, you know, we only need to hold out for so long.' "

Conway, who is about to retire, made his blunt assessment amid increasing criticism of Obama's war strategy and deepening public concern over the rising US death toll in the country. Earlier this month, the new commander of international forces in Afghanistan, General David Petraeus, said he would not be bound by Obama's timetable.

Supporters of Obama's plan to start withdrawing forces from Afghanistan next year — conditions permitting — say it conveys a much-needed sense of urgency to Kabul. Afghans, they argue, must quickly swell the ranks of their security forces for a gradual handover.

Critics say the strategy has backfired, signalling to the Taliban that the US is preparing to wind down the war while setting unrealistic expectations among Americans about the pace of progress.

Conway, quoting one of his commanders, told reporters: "We can either lose fast or win slow."

The general's remarks are likely to fan criticism of Obama's plans in the run-up to US congressional elections in November.

The timetable for withdrawal is also certain to come under close scrutiny in a White House strategy review in December, which Obama called for last year when he announced the July 2011 deadline and 30,000 additional troops.

"We know the president was talking to several audiences at the same time when he made his comments on July 2011," Conway told reporters at the Pentagon. "Though I certainly believe that some American units somewhere in Afghanistan will turn over responsibilities to Afghanistan security forces in 2011, I do not think they will be marines."

Violence across Afghanistan has reached record levels despite the presence of almost 150,000 US and Nato troops, who have stepped up operations after the Taliban insurgency spread from the south and east into once relatively peaceful areas of the north and west.

Conway said he believed the Taliban were in for a surprise once they realised next July that US forces would be remaining — and in large numbers. That, he said, would damage the "enemy psyche".


One of the biggest challenges facing the US military was winning US public support for the war. "I sense our country is increasingly growing tired of the war," said Conway, pointing to opinion polls showing unfavourable views of the war in Britain and the US.

"I don't think that we have done a strong enough job in convincing the American people that there are good and just reasons why we have to destroy the al-Qaida and the associated Taliban in Afghanistan."

Conway's comments are the latest acknowledgment by top US military officials of the challenges in Afghanistan, which appear to minimise the likelihood of any substantial change in the conflict by next July.

One of those challenges is training Afghan troops to take over from US forces as they withdraw. US Lieutenant General William Caldwell said this week that training of Afghan forces still faced big hurdles. Afghanistan's police and military would not be ready to take the lead in more than isolated pockets of the country until late October 2011.

The Afghan Taliban issued a statement yesterday rejecting some recent claims of US progress in the war. It said attacks were increasing around the capital and in their heartland in the south.

"Stop sacrificing your sons and daughters for a war which is unwinnable," said a spokesman in a statement emailed to media by the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, the title used by the Taliban when they ruled Afghanistan from 1996 to 2001.

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Originally Posted by alh_p

I think what PVC is saying, and is absent from the above Obama-bashing, is that this deadline was mostly put in place to placate the US public -whose appetite for continued war in Afghhanistan continues to thin.

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The deadline was put in place to placate the American Left, not the public at large. The dwindling support for the war is a direct result of the president's mismanagement of the conflict and his unwillingness to sell it to the people... or even focus on it at all.

I can't read the article, the words are too big and my wrist is tired from scrolling.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

The deadline was put in place to placate the American Left, not the public at large. The dwindling support for the war is a direct result of the president's mismanagement of the conflict and his unwillingness to sell it to the people... or even focus on it at all.

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Which makes you wonder how come Obama managed to win an election on the theme if the war was going so well...

... I would interpret the dwindling support for the war as being a sign that the public thinks the whole “get out of it” part of the plan isn't going fast enough.

Looks like someone is in denial...

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

The deadline was put in place to placate the American Left, not the public at large. The dwindling support for the war is a direct result of the president's mismanagement of the conflict and his unwillingness to sell it to the people... or even focus on it at all.

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Not really, since all of NATO and America's allies want out of the war as well and they were not under direct command of the President. Even then, many people did not even want to go into the war, nevermind get out of it.

It isn't placating America's left at all, because is it those on the right wanting to get out of there too. There is simply no point to the war. People are fed-up of constantly turning on the television and having loved ones dead over nothing. The populace doesn't care about some sandpit across the globe.

In interviews on the subject in the UK, vast majority say "Get our troops out of there" while the minority goes "Finish up and then get them out of there, within 5 years max". No one says "Let's continue!".

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

Looks like someone is in denial...

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How is Egypt this time of year?

:drummer:

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

How is Egypt this time of year?

:drummer:

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Hot, which is why I stay inside the air conditioned Pizza Hut closest to the Pyramids.
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/e...hotography.jpg

This is the problem with modern day democracy you cannot sustain something unpopular for too long no matter how nessecary it is. So we went in there, killed some people arrested some people blew some crap up built some other stuff, we may have improved the infrastructure of the country slighty but assuming stan falls back to its old ways all that will have happened is that voters were placated by seeing the place that their attackers trained from bombed and invaded and a nice pipeline built were negotiations weren't going so smoothly before.

I can see now that I was very wrong to support the US invasion of Afghanastan all their sweet talk of rebuilding, of country building, of womens rights was a bunch of crock to keep some of the less war happy folks quiet sure they implemented some of it whilst they were there but the real point was just to please the many people after revenge and give them something to keep the votes coming in.

Not that the blame lays solely at USA's doorstep, Britian was happy to do USA's bidding without asking for anything, no gaurentee's that we would finish the job. No USA are the superpower and apparently our special friend so were happy to help invade no questions asked and various other countrys...

There is a huge amount of blame on the Iraq war, that useless distraction of a war on a secular state in the middle of an apparent war on religious extremists, confusing and now we are paying the ultimate price for it, failure in Afghanastan. Again America isn't the only one to blame she has too many bad friends, yes men like the lawyers Mr Burns hires, She snaps her fingers and Britian, Spain, Austrailia and a whole host of 'poorer' countrys with their begging bowls out. Not that France took thier postion for America's best interests they just happened to coincide....

Anyway lesson learned, the next time America decides to invade somewhere but makes sweet promises about all the great stuff their planning don't get suckered in look for the bottom line, which in Afghanastans case was probably just revenge...

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

The deadline was put in place to placate the American Left, not the public at large. The dwindling support for the war is a direct result of the president's mismanagement of the conflict and his unwillingness to sell it to the people... or even focus on it at all.

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Based on a poll from last year (I can't be bothered getting more recent stuff, but very, very little has changed).

Republicans (70 percent say it is worth fighting) and conservatives (58 percent) remain the war's strongest backers, and the issue provides a rare point of GOP support for Obama's policies. A narrow majority of conservatives approve of the president's handling of the war (52 percent), as do more than four in 10 Republicans (43 percent).

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

How is Egypt this time of year?

:drummer:

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:love:



Other than that, I can't read any of the fonts you guys use, so no comment from me. :sweatdrop:

I'm at a point now where I could cae less if there is a timetable or not. This administration or any future administration will NEVER fight a war the way war should be fought so its a waste of resourses and blood. My country needs to face the facts that we've become a nation of government addicted pussies and would be better off pulling all our military resourses out of every corner of the world and wishing the world good luck on their future. You just have to face the fact that the people of Afganastan, Iraq, Iran, and most of the middle east belong to a death cult and its just the way it is. Just hope you don't have to do any traveling and pray that you don't get converted by the sword in your lifetime. Let the future generations worry about the coming purge of infidels. Me? I'm going to drink and watch enough porn for 5 lifetimes before I'm in a soccer stadium getting shot in the head by a Chinaman or my head cut off by a moon god worhshipper...

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

I'm at a point now where I could cae less if there is a timetable or not. This administration or any future administration will NEVER fight a war the way war should be fought so its a waste of resourses and blood. My country needs to face the facts that we've become a nation of government addicted pussies and would be better off pulling all our military resourses out of every corner of the world and wishing the world good luck on their future. You just have to face the fact that the people of Afganastan, Iraq, Iran, and most of the middle east belong to a death cult and its just the way it is. Just hope you don't have to do any traveling and pray that you don't get converted by the sword in your lifetime. Let the future generations worry about the coming purge of infidels. Me? I'm going to drink and watch enough porn for 5 lifetimes before I'm in a soccer stadium getting shot in the head by a Chinaman or my head cut off by a moon god worhshipper...

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Somebody is a bit grumpy. Want a dulce?

Maybe his Chinese girl dumped him?

Time to drink!

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

I'm at a point now where I could cae less if there is a timetable or not. This administration or any future administration will NEVER fight a war the way war should be fought so its a waste of resourses and blood. My country needs to face the facts that we've become a nation of government addicted pussies and would be better off pulling all our military resourses out of every corner of the world and wishing the world good luck on their future. You just have to face the fact that the people of Afganastan, Iraq, Iran, and most of the middle east belong to a death cult and its just the way it is. Just hope you don't have to do any traveling and pray that you don't get converted by the sword in your lifetime. Let the future generations worry about the coming purge of infidels. Me? I'm going to drink and watch enough porn for 5 lifetimes before I'm in a soccer stadium getting shot in the head by a Chinaman or my head cut off by a moon god worhshipper...

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I like the fact that somehow the military is considered non-governmental.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

I like the fact that somehow the military is considered non-governmental.

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Its the only part of the government that was originally authorised by the Constitution. Oh well, pass me my Socila Security and Obamacare....

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Its the only part of the government that was originally authorised by the Constitution.

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Riiiight ... except for the judiciary, legislative and executive branches. And the census, which is a socialist plot to ... um ... advance ... socialism ...

-edit-

And actually, looking at it, there's no mention of a standing army or permanent military in the Constitution (closest thing is "an orderly militia" in the 2nd Amendment). Which makes sense, since a number of the Founding Fathers thought that standing armies were incompatible with liberty. So your statement is wrong on every level. But we still love you.

I love socialism, you selfish bastards.

I love bean and cheese tacos

In the end, both cause a mess.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

In the end, both cause a mess.

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Not to labour (harhar) the point, but I do believe their may be outcome-critical effects wrapped-up (harhar again) in the implementation, and indeed practicalities of either case. For example, one would perhaps seek to avoid an overfull taco as much as one would an overbearing bureacracy in the other. Or are both of these outcomes suimply inherent to the items/systems they pertain to? Have you ever eaten an underfull taco?????

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Riiiight ... except for the judiciary, legislative and executive branches. And the census, which is a socialist plot to ... um ... advance ... socialism ...

-edit-

And actually, looking at it, there's no mention of a standing army or permanent military in the Constitution (closest thing is "an orderly militia" in the 2nd Amendment). Which makes sense, since a number of the Founding Fathers thought that standing armies were incompatible with liberty. So your statement is wrong on every level. But we still love you.

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This makes up for you giving me those 2 infraction points and subsequent 3 day ban.

I like how 9+ years (the longest war in American history) is considered to be nothing to conservatives. Obviously America's democracy can no longer sustain "doing the necessary thing" for very long when it is unpopular.

I was born in 1992 and on 9/11 I was 9. My earliest memory is 9/11, (well scratch that, thats my second earliest memory, earliest was 2000 New Years). I'm now 18. For half of my life and for (almost) as long as I can remember from my life, Americans have been dying somewhere, fighting someone always at war. Half my life and 99% of all my memories has been in an era of war. To me, the idea of "not enough time was given" or "looks like democracy cant sustain necessary war for long periods anymore" is almost really insulting to me. Every kid who was born since 9/11 has lived their entire lives surrounded by war, and that partly concerns me since these kids are not toddlers, they are in third and fourth grade now.

Now that I can vote, I'm voting for Obama and the Democrats partly because I just want to know whats its like not being in war and not hearing casualties in my news feed every week.

9 years is nothing. Eradicating an enemy, rebuilding a nation and trying to gain backdoor liberation for its women and minorities is not something that happens overnight, particularly when to wars are going on. Everyone wants things quickly in the age of cell phones and the internet.

We can go round and round about what and who is to blame for getting us where we are today. The mismanagement that continues here today is shocking.

But to abandon the people here will result in a fallout I care not to witness. Boo hoo at kids in the US growing up during a war. The last few generation of Afghans have had to live it. We are closer now than ever to returning this place to its economical and social level pre-1975. "Not my problem" stopped applying the second we got involved here, drew lines in the sand and started making promises. We are here. Get used to it. Better yet, send me some toys, jerks.

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

9 years is nothing. Eradicating an enemy, rebuilding a nation and trying to gain backdoor liberation for its women and minorities is not something that happens overnight, particularly when to wars are going on. Everyone wants things quickly in the age of cell phones and the internet.

We can go round and round about what and who is to blame for getting us where we are today. The mismanagement that continues here today is shocking.

But to abandon the people here will result in a fallout I care not to witness. Boo hoo at kids in the US growing up during a war. The last few generation of Afghans have had to live it. We are closer now than ever to returning this place to its economical and social level pre-1975. "Not my problem" stopped applying the second we got involved here, drew lines in the sand and started making promises. We are here. Get used to it. Better yet, send me some toys, jerks.

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Are we closer to returning it to its economical and social level pre-1975? Because if we are closer then I would continue to support it. GLADLY! If we were that close to having a fully functional and socially free democratically based country in the heart of Central Asia, I would definitely support the war still. COMPLETELY! I vastly respect you for your service but please don't disrespect me for giving my view in the position I'm in. All I hear is how many Americans die in Iraq and Afghanistan while I see best friends of mine join up. I hear all about how Hamid Karzai is completely corrupt and enjoying wasting millions if not billions of American funds. I hear about resurgences in the strength of the Taliban and increases in the anti-American sentiment/pro-Islamic extremist sentiment in the mountains of Pakistan.

I supported the war until recently. I understand rebuilding a country takes time, the Marshal Plan was active from 1947-1951 and the US occupation of Japan was from 1945 until 1952 after which the rebuilding was enough to have Japan build upon itself to become one of the biggest economies in the world.

So even with Japan, the occupation and nation building was 8 years before we left. Ok, so with this situation we have insurgents causing trouble which wasn't a problem in occupied Japan so I can give credence to staying in a bit longer. That is if I heard of progress in the region. Japan didnt stay in rubble for 7 years then shot up in a year before the US left.

Since you are there, tell me:
1. Are there major roads connecting to all the major cities and at least tracks connecting to all the villages and towns?
2. What percentage of those in school are women?
3. How qualified are the Afghan security forces/army that the US is training?

I'm not a "cut and run" person, I'm not one of my stupid classmates wanting everything right now this instant, I'm not declaring these wars to "not be my problem", like I said until about mid 2008 I was fully behind the wars. I'm a "it's been almost a decade what have we done right and what have we done wrong? Have we gone forward, backward or stagnant since 2001? If we have made progress, how much longer until the projected moment of self sustainability for the country?" kind of person, who's questions have been all answered in the negative by the news I am bombarded with.

Give me good news, tell me stories of progress please, I want to continue to support the war effort if I can tell that equality for women and minorities and political freedom for millions is within reach.

RC East, the US-led region in Pakistan contains 14 provinces and 9.9 million people, with 450 miles of shared border with Pakistan. Here are some details for this region alone:

Under the Taliban, this region had only 31 miles of paved road. It now has 1900 miles of paved roads, with 2-4 lane highways going between major population centers. The KG Pass and the GG Pass are two of the most extraordinary as they have increased inter-city trucking by about 1000%.

Under the Taliban, there were @ 1000 schools with less than a million students. Now there are 9000 schools with 6.2 million students. We have also gone from 20,000 teachers to 160,000.

Under the Taliban there were no females in schools. Read that as zero. As in none. Zilch. Now there are 2.2 million. There would be many more if their fathers would stop being retards and let them go to school,

Under the Taliban, there were no women in government. Now there are 68 females in parliament, representing 23%. Unfortunately, the ones in parliament are there by mandate, sort of like affirmative action, and the process to fill those seats is very seedy

There was one mobile phone company under the Taliban. Now there are 4, with almost 7 million subscribers.

Under the Taliban there were no television or radio stations. Read that as none. Zero. Now there are 14 television stations and 104 radio stations. These do not include the mini-stations aired out of Coalition FOBS, which would easily bring the total of radio station to 200.

Under the Taliban, 8% of the population had access to a medical facility. Now the number is 85%, which does not include military care, which is routinely given to the population when we go out and see a sick kid and bring him or her back to the base.

Under the Taliban this country had the highest infant mortality rate in the world. It still does, but it is estimated that we have lowered the rate by @22% because current tally of babies lives saved through simple preventative medical checks is currently at 89,000. This does not include lives saved through education. The people here were bombed into ignorance, and education on simple hygiene and nutritional practices has certainly saved countless lives. We still have a long way to go. Just the other day I found a mother bathing her kids in a water reservoir people defecate in, the water looked like a Baby Ruth factory.

The average life expectancy was 36-38 under the Taliban. Now it is 44-46, although women have a lower expectancy than men, unlike most countries. It is hard to gauge the literacy rate, however, more children than adults can now read, something that has solid potential to turn this country around as these kids grow older.


You don’t hear the good news because good news does not sell newspapers.
Anyone hear about the attack last week on FOB Salerno? Probably not. It was a fantastic, complex, highly coordinated attack by almost 40 guys in suicide vest and US uniforms. I won’t go too much into detail, but we (and by “we” I man I was there and later got great photos of stupid dead Haqqani operatives) killed every last one of them with no US Forces or Afghan Army getting so much as wounded. None of their vests got the chance to be blown, and their catastrophic VBIED never made into the gate. Meanwhile, the only 2 western stories I saw on it called the assault a “bold” attack by an “invigorated” enemy. Bold? Please, keep it coming.

Half of the Taliban and Haqqani operatives we capture are not Afghans. They are Pakistani, Saudi, Chechnya, Yemeni.

Of the remaining Taliban and Haqqani, roughly 20% of them are simple guns for hire. Many of those are poor people from rural areas, who are convinced to make a suicide attack against the coalition except they are not told it will be a suicide attack. A couple of guys with RPGs and AKs don’t have a chance against a convoy of MRAPS, but they try anyway, and they die, and the Taliban never pays their family like they said they would. Movies are common here. A few of the farm boys we have captured gave details about how the Taliban had them watch hours and hours of Hollywood action movies so they could better understand how to fight and win, which explains why they fight so badly. I have video of one insurgent doing "gansta grip" on his pistol. Many of the families we talk to after killing one of their boys had no idea they had been recruited, but they all have one thing in common: poor and uneducated by even Afghan standards

There is also a significant element of criminals, not unlike the Sicilian mafia or common Detroit street thugs, who rob and murder people to suit their needs. When they finally get some westerners or someone who was a cop, they claim they were doing the work of the Taliban. The team of western Doctors that were murdered last month by “Taliban” were simply killed by thugs, with the Taliban later claiming credit for a job well done.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...p1PyCw&cad=rja

Hmmm. So that leaves about 20-25% of the Taliban and Haqqani who are actual Afghans fighting for some sort of ideal.

I have been trying to save it for my journal thread when I return home, but the level of education here among the population is ridiculous. Common sense stuff. They are a country of farmers who suck at farming. The merchants suck at selling things. Boys still have far more access to education than girls, but a high school “graduate” has the education of probably a 2nd grader in the US. The smaller universities graduate people who have the equivalent of a 6th grade education. The work ethic here sucks, part of which was caused by 30 years of sustenance and survival mode with no hope for tomorrow, then complicated by the fact that we are handing people a free tit to suck on. I had a college professor laugh at me when I chided him for using pesticide without putting gloves on his cut up hands. He laughed and said “I know many old men who have never used gloves and they are fine.” By old he means 40. Oh, and since no one does autopsies here, I bet they aren’t fine, what with their 44 year life span.

Yes, the government is corrupt. And while a lot of the ANP and ANA are very well trained and equipped, they are still corrupt, too. How do we solve it? We have to follow rules and guidelines. We can’t just yank Karzai out of office without an election or trial, because then we revert back to the Soviet style of governing. We can’t just purge the police and army, because many of them are straight and good. The ones trained by US and French forces are usually better soldiers and fighters than the ones trained by private contractors. A lot of the shake-down and racketeering tactics they use were learned from living under the Taliban, because that is how the Taliban got revenue.

The paranoia of the government is so deeply ingrained that people call foul for anything. The parliamentary election about to come up has seen hundreds of polling stations be closed because we simply cannot secure all of them. Well, if a village has a candidate running for office, and that polling station gets closed, guess who cries corruption? That village could have offered militia, but they did not, and no they cry that the poll is closed and scream corruption.

The US is taking a hands off approach to security at polling stations and will not be present at any of them (although we will be nearby) because we do not want to be accused of voter intimidation, which we have already been accused of while doing simple opinion polls of potential voters where we asked such corrupt questions as “do you know where to vote?”, “do you think the poll site will be safe?” and “Do you know when the election is?”

Karzai wants to ban all private security companies, which on the surface sounds like a great idea because it gets the Blackwater and Dyncorp thugs out of the country. But doing so will mean that all Non-government agencies and charities will no longer be able to use their own security teams, and will have to hire local nationals to protect them. This could easily backfire, because if the NGOs are in danger they will not get any work done. To keep roads and development from happening, all the Taliban has to do now is keep an area so dangerous that NGOs and charities won’t visit. Without private security details for NGOs and charities, the danger threshold will go way down because a lot of the Afghans simply cannot be trusted due to various factors. Although there is fraud and some are getting overpaid, NGOs complete the vast majority of humanitarian and infrastructure and education projects because they are not subject to the bureaucratic garbage that PRTs and ADTs are subject to.

Right now, the largest Afghan private security company is called ASG, and they provide security for a lot of convoys that get attacked and FOBs that get infiltrated. They are a joke. You think rent-a-cops in the US are bad, you should see these guys. They sleep in the towers, they smoke hash at the checkpoints and they steal water and fuel from the FOBS. They get fired constantly. It is the company that recently had a huge scandal because they were paying a portion of their profits to the Taliban in exchange for various favors. With foreign security companies gone, the ASG will be in control of even more ground. I would rather trust my life with the Arbaki or an old man with a gun than the ASG.

The fact of the matter is the Taliban are by large terrible fighters. They are buffoons. Half of all potential suicide bombers only get the suicide part right because their bombs blow prematurely. Their tactics are base and primitive. They have to resort to old-fashioned threats and muscle against uneducated, paranoid, distrustful people. There is a reason that most of the Taliban power is wielded in rural areas, because that is where the people are the most ignorant.

The Taliban has taken advantage of the high illiteracy rate, the short term memory, the young average age of the men, and the lack of communication by engaging in information operations of the following ilk:
- There were no roads or infrastructure under the Taliban because we never got the chance.
- Democracy brings freedom to women, and free women become whores and prostitutes.
- The Taliban never educated girls because there were no female teachers. We needed more time.
- US Forces want to enslave the Afghan women to use as sex slaves


These are actual preach-and-run sermons given by masked imams and night letters that get posted by the Taliban. Meanwhile, my two Afghani DJs who work in the mini radio station on this FOB get around 100 calls and 30 letters a day from Afghans asking for more international news, more music, more government news and, in a lot of cases, asking my DJs to marry them. When we do a live call-in show for agriculture and health questions, we average about 600 calls in 3 hours. This is for one district alone.

Basically, our strict ROE to limit civilian casualties has been taken to such an extreme that soldiers are put in more danger. The giant VBIED in Khost a couple of months ago that killed the US and Canadian troops (including a Candian colonel) ould never have happened 3 years ago, because the street ould have been cordoned off.

This results in mid level commanders having their troops “commute to work.” We go out and tell people to work with us, trust us, side with us and that we will protect them…then by 1700 we are back on our bases enjoying a hot meal and playing XBOX. No commander wants to go through the ensuing inquisition that occurs after taking a casualty, so we hide on FOBS. The weather restrictions here are ridiculous. I don’t even know why I brought rain gear. I envy the units that actually get to live in villages and towns. According to the old man, these things are about to change drastically.

Do I want to go back to the early days of Iraq and Stan where we shot first and asked question later? Absolutely not. The early ROE in Iraq were atrocious when IEDs first started appearing. I still remember being trained that after an IED anyone on a cell phone was fair game. I still remember the early IEDs being mistaken for RPGs and soldiers firing in the direction of the explosion and killing carloads of people. I still remember all of the fake intel – probably fed from the Taliban – in Afghanistan and Iraq that the US would act on…..go to homes and raid, arrest and kill people who will fight home invaders to the death, and then it turns out the informants were full of crap and we have now turned an entire village against us. Basically, the US was so ecstatic that anyone was cooperating with them, that they would take the bait and bite. We are still reeling from those early mistakes. Hell, they still happen to an early extent. While I cannot go into too much detail (yet), one of the maneuver elements in this province has a problem with their foot patrols shooting “aggressive” dogs. The problem with shooting dogs is that bystanders can get hurt or killed. I have lots of dog stories, but dogs here are like dogs anywhere and are territorial against strangers. This has happened several times in one village where my ADT was making huge progress, resulting in 2 injuries and one death. Later, they basically said that any US Forces other than us that came to that village would be attacked, but that they would not attack us because we actually cared about them and helped them. Since we are a Division asset, we continued to go there much to the chagrin of the battalion maneuver elements

There are a lot of elements in and out of Afghanistan that want the military out but the financial aid to continue. There are even a few women’s groups who want this, because they call the US Forces rapists and murderers, despite more than 65% of the civilian casualties being caused by the Taliban, most of those on purpose, and 25% being caused by NATO, most of those on accident. These women’s groups seem to think that they will be able to fight for their liberation over time and the longer the US stays the harder that fight will be (???), but the leadership of these groups typically come from elements where there is a concentrated, constitutionally-mandated section of women in power, and they are, to be quite honest, delusional and spoiled because they are safe in Kabul. People here, even the women, have an incredible inability to understand consequences, long term planning and effects, and the idea that some people are just downright evil and no god in the world is going to be able to stop them when your number is up.

The one thing everyone seems to forget is that even though we have done a piss poor job at stopping corruption and financial waste, it will get worse with us gone, and I can assure you if we leave there will still be US money poured into this place, which will be used even more inefficiently. Many of the military units focused on rebuilding (like mine) judge success by amount of money spent, which is completely wrongheaded. However, the simple fact is that Afghanistan has no tax code. They have no source of revenue as a country. Many in the country are opposed to centralized government until the government can prove it can take care of them (which came first, the chicken or the egg?), and that isn’t even taking into the consideration all of the flipping NOMADS, which I am too tired to write about. There are nomads in this country who just go and live on people’s property, right next to their home, and use their water and graze their crops. They are like the northern Native Americans, except they have no respect for anyone elses property unless you literally run them off with guns and men. These people are everywhere. Good luck taxing them. People here can have progress all around them, but until it affects them personally and financially and they hold it in their hand they will say “nope, no progress.”

I remember talking to a guy in a community where we built a water conservation and filtration system, taught the nurseries better tree management and provided them with modern tools and education, provided cool storage facilities to the major vegetable producers, dug multiple wells for public use and delivered an assload of books, toys and hygiene stuff to the babies. All of these things made water more available to everyone, lowered the price of fruit and vegetables, allowed perishables to be stored longer so they could be used in the winter, and created knowledge that was then shared with everyone else. The village went from a mediocre apple and vegetable producer (sustenance) to an organized, market-competitive, healthier community that could now export food to other communities for sale and trade. All of these things benefited this man I talked to. But he was pissed because we didn’t build the well on his property(they were community wells), plant the trees on his property (they were foliage trees to fight erosion and flooding not fruit trees), give him any money or training, or do anything directly for him, although we helped many of his neighbors and made his village a better place. He said “That’s why I hate this government, they never do anything for me.”

This is the same reason we try to "put an Afghan face" on so much of what we do. That is another reason the good stories from US troops are sometimes scarce: although we are doing the funding, the planning, the work and the fighting, we give credit to the Afghan government and "hard working" civilians where credit is not due. This is a policy I have huge issues with, and it has caused me problems with my superiors when it comes to passing out humanitarian aid, school supplies and toys, because I refuse to give this stuff to the local authorities to distribute because they ill distribute it straight to their homes or the pawn shop.

Another reason progress could be deemed as slow is because of what we like to call Money as a weapon.

Let me ask you this: What is better, to pay one guy with a bulldozer license a bunch of money to doze some dirt and be done in 2 days, or pay 40 uneducated, unemployed men a living wage for a months worth of work. Does it take longer? Yes. Does it provide employment for the men and their afghan security detail during the summer months when the Taliban goes on a recruiting drive, thus making them less likely to be tempted as a gun-for-hire and more likely to be doing productive work, getting job experience, making friends and networking? Yes. Which would you rather have?

Hands are getting tired and I promised I would not go off on this stuff until I got home. I am ranting uncontrollably, thanks to a mission being canceled due to bad weather, and by bad weather I mean clear skies, 80 degrees and a 5% chance of a cloud blocking the medevac pass.

Sorry for the unorganized rant

Here are a couple of sites with some pretty good information:

www.zonesofconflict.org -- Janet Killeen is level headed and understands the undertones of this war. She embedded with us for a while, although our story has not been published because she is saving our material for a book.

www.freerangeinternational.com -- This guy is awesome because he understands how our current ROE is actually causing us to lose ground and that the Taliban are buffoons. I don’t agree with everything he says. Be sure and check out the epic story on the large suicide attack on the governors compound, it reads like a keystone cop saga.


http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16...100809,00.html I hope this gives you nightmares. Here are some photo and story collections about the plight of women in Afghanistan. However, to suggest that atrocities like this are unique only to the Taliban is a bit false. Married people who cheat are tortured and executed, many without proof, on a fairly frequent basis here, and it has nothing to do with the Taliban. Usually the man gets away because he has the means and network, and the woman goes down with the ship. Dirty old village elders routinely give teenage girls “virginity examinations” if their morals are called into question, something which they probably take much personal joy in. When these “experts” determine the girl is not pure, she is either killed or sold into slavery. What is most shocking is that many times it is the girl’s mother who turns her in to the authorities, knowing full well what could come of it. Women and girls are often used to settle financial disputes and feuds caused by dishonoring another group. Based on the lies, work ethic and sliminess of many of the men here, it would not surprise me if some of these “blood feuds” and “dishonoring” were fabricated or staged in order to get a fresh young wife to compensate for the “dishonored” sister etc. In fact, I would be willing to put money on it.

Thank you for the long reply. I hope that you might be able to answer a few more follow up questions (because I would like as much info as possible to spread to other Americans who like me sit in the dark except for what we hear on the news).

So when did the ROE change from shoot first ask questions later to a more productive manner? I would like to know when this current style of rebuilding has been around. From what you are telling me, kids are now in school but the level of education is still way behind what it should be. Well that's a good start imo. How do we improve this if there are very little qualified teachers? 6th grade level of education isn't satisfactory to build a modern country, high school education here isn't even enough for keep some people from being incredibly stupid in America.

I was very excited to hear about the progress of radio and tv stations being built and broadcasting in the country, however, the key component is that you have acknowledged that the rural people are very poor and uneducated, how widespread are radios in Afghanistan? How widespread are tv's? Are these tools for progress simply focused on the urban areas, the only areas people can afford to own a radio or tv?

Overall your post has satisfied my skepticism about if the US can physically build up the country successfully. For which I thank you, and I apologize for my earlier ignorance. But I am still hesitant about the war effort for this reason:

You mention in your donation thread about young males already abusing the young women at a young age. And you have acknowledged that many girls are still not allowed into school and that some woman's rights groups want US troops to leave. You acknowledge the spread of lies among the poor rural by the Taliban. All this seems to be a systematic problem within the culture of Afghanistan which is deeply ingrained. How are we supposed to "enlighten" a culture as backwards as this to be a fully functioning free country? Even if (once?) we build up the country to an appropriate standard physically with infrastructure and security and tv's and all the stuff they need, what's to stop the public from retaining their oppressive culture? A bigot won't stop hating blacks once you inform him "Hey, blacks are not inferior to whites in any way." how do we get a nation with a large population of sexists to treat females right? Are we to prevent the bigotry from infesting the children and wait for the bigots to die out?

Also, you have said that no one wants to give credit to the government except when they have something tangible in their hands and that we have very little to do to counter the corruption in their government since it's a hands off approach (I understand that it would get much worse if we were to leave though). This seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy of stagnation. Is the only way to break this cycle is to spend billions of American dollars to satisfy every governmental skeptic in Afghanistan from which a demand for more accountability (stemming from a new connection and dependency on the government due to our dollars paying for stuff) and less corruption be sparked?

Overall, the impression I am getting is that reconstruction is going well (from which I absolutely commend you and the rest of the forces), but culturally the country is barely above barbaric. Well that is, if you discount the "virginity examinations" you mentioned. Rural poor believing lies from the enemy, widespread oppression of women from adults to kids alike, and a complete lack of a "we can do this attitude" fused with selfishness from civilians and government alike and most of all this statement, "People here, even the women, have an incredible inability to understand consequences, long term planning and effects, and the idea that some people are just downright evil and no god in the world is going to be able to stop them when your number is up." make me ask one big question: Is Afghanistan even willing to be a modern nation?

Again, thank you, thank you, thank you for your post. I know you want to save this stuff for your report when you come back, but the faster people can see your perspective on things, the easier and faster the country as a whole can go about handling the situation in a much more efficient and productive manner.

EDIT: Also, once again sorry for my ignorance on the subject. You know what crap we are fed here (that "bold" attack being a bunch of idiots who can't even kill themselves correctly) but we don't.

However you sell it, to use a medical analogy Afghanistan as a country is on life support. It's brain dead, but is being supported by a variety of external measures which if withdrawn would mean it died. I mean, come on - no taxation system - not a bad one or even one that is evaded, but no grasp of a nation taxing; corruption that means it's viewed as state sanctioned thievery. You can prop the corpse up as long as America has the means, but I've not seen anything yet that indicates that Afghanistan as a country exists except on a map.

It serves a purpose in giving the religious nutters (at this point in time, generally under the umbrella of Islam) to come and to die thus preventing them doing anything to anyone else but Afghanistan is a very large country to use as killing field. The vast majority have no skills to serve as a threat to the west; those that do most likely aren't there.

~:smoking:

The kind of systemic "sea-change" to which MRD alludes is not to be accomplished in a decade or less -- and the best that can be said of it is that it constitutes a good beginning. It is a change that will take a generation or more. This is as true of Afghanistan as it is of Iraq. Most elements of society will derive significant benefits from this change, though it will be a long time before they themselves invest fully in it -- and only then can it be judged a success.

We are drawing down in Iraq. Violence has increased. Will it come apart at the seams? An un-answered question.

Afghanistan is on a similar vector, though it's start-point was far lower as MRD notes.

R2K is one of our resident curmudgeons, but I hope history proves him overly cynical in both instances.

I dislike the idea writing off part of humanity as "perpetual craphole, doomed to warlordism/dictatorial thuggery forever" as Rory's cynicism seems to suggest.

The rest of humanity rose form these beginnings. Not all at the same rate, and not with the same ending. Afghanistan should find its own path.

Personally I think that one main problem (and one that affects most of Africa) is the borders themselves. Split the country up into areas that are in sync with each other and they will start to function. Afghanistan is far too big to be one country. By propping it up as is we are prolonging it.

~:smoking:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

The rest of humanity rose form these beginnings. Not all at the same rate, and not with the same ending. Afghanistan should find its own path.

Personally I think that one main problem (and one that affects most of Africa) is the borders themselves. Split the country up into areas that are in sync with each other and they will start to function. Afghanistan is far too big to be one country. By propping it up as is we are prolonging it.

~:smoking:

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A better argument. Not sure that I agree that it makes Afghanistan as is impossible, but you make a good point here. The more arbitrary the "lines on the map" the more problems it creates.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

The rest of humanity rose form these beginnings. Not all at the same rate, and not with the same ending. Afghanistan should find its own path.

Personally I think that one main problem (and one that affects most of Africa) is the borders themselves. Split the country up into areas that are in sync with each other and they will start to function. Afghanistan is far too big to be one country. By propping it up as is we are prolonging it.

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The borders thing is interesting, the West (principaly Britain and France) did a singularily good job (consicously, in some ciscumstances) of dismantling many sorts of ethnic states -it made the principles of divide and rule easier. The most celebrated example being the Kurds, who were shared out between Iraq, (nascent)Turkey and Iran.

I think your earlier medical analogy, as an example of why to "drop" Afghanistan is interesting but rather too facile. Its flaw is to assume Afghanistan is (as medicine assumes) a single body primarily responsible only for itself, where other people (states) are capable of dealing with it "not being there".

There are two argument for "sorting Afghanistan out" that I am aware of, and support:

On the one hand, unless Afghanistan can appropriately govern itself, it will continue to cause its neighbours -and other countries (the West) problems. So the international community needs to help create and establish that "appropriate" governance in order to ensure the threats the country could pose are headed off and contained at source.

Secondly, in contrast to your medical example, where a person is regarded as an individual sufferer, allowing the Afghan state to collapse/implode (again) would cause further untold misery for generations of its 28 million inhabitants.

If ISAF and Donors were to withdraw without setting up something reasonable, Afghanistan would rapidly slide back into its Somalia-like state of complete breakdown.

These kinds of murderous cretins must make your job inifitely harder MRD:

US soldiers 'killed Afghan civilians for sport and collected fingers as trophies'

Twelve American soldiers face charges over a secret "kill team" that allegedly blew up and shot Afghan civilians at random and collected their fingers as trophies.

Five of the soldiers are charged with murdering three Afghan men who were allegedly killed for sport in separate attacks this year. Seven others are accused of covering up the killings and assaulting a recruit who exposed the murders when he reported other abuses, including members of the unit smoking hashish stolen from civilians.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...ilians-fingers

While it is somewhat old news for us here, the details are finally starting to emerge in the free press. The jury is still out, so to speak, but the majority of deployed soldiers I can assure you feel that these guys should be hung if they are in fact guilty. Crap like this comes full circle, and gets more soldiers killed. Unfortunately, stories like this get far more press than the civilians killed each day bt the taliban, and they overshadow positive.

Abu gharib got more soldiers killed. The guys who raped the girl and then murdered her family not only got their comrades abducted and killed due to a revenge assault on their ECP by people who in some cases were not even Al Quida, but for the remainder of the war people who wore the same patch as the rapists were targets. A unit could be getting along very well in a district, but as soon as some 101st patches appeared, the local mullah would tell the unit that the "chicken heads" were fair game.

If these charges turn out to be true, short of a public execution the best course of action will be to move the entire Brigade to a far away province. Needless to say, all the work done in their respective villages by ADTs, PRTs and NGOs will be irrelevant and undone.

“The most celebrated example being the Kurds, who were shared out between Iraq, (nascent) Turkey and Iran.”
Err, this example is a wrong one. A Kurdistan was supposed to be created but after the WW1 (Treaty of Sevres, 1920), but Kamal Ataturk put an end to it. And the Treaty of Lausannes abolished the Treaty of Sevres in 1923.

In fact, contrary of most of the legend, borders inherited from the colonial past were not artificial nor without sense.
To drawn a line in a desert (sand or Rain Forest) as border do make sense, as it has little influence of populations life. Sure, nomadic tribes were ignored but this happened everywhere (see debate on Roma).
In fact, the borders the most contested were/are in Europe… See the actual problem with Kosovo/a and Bosnia. Or the Oder/Neisse one…