What would an authentic Bosphoran Kingdom army look like?

I'm considering a third migrated faction game (Epeiros as the Bosphoran Kingdom), but I've no idea how the Bosphorans fought. It'll surprise no one when I say that I like the Hellenic troop roster, especially when mixed with regional troops to flavour and vary things.

I'm guessing from the troops available that it's a mixture of Hellenic and steppe units, though I'm struggling a little to imagine how horse archers would work together with infantry. What would be in a 14-unit stack?

How would you deal with Sauromatae horse archer armies? I've avoided them up to this point, opponents who you can't catch sound like an exercise in frustration. There's some foot archers with even longer range who'd integrate well into a regular army, but would they be the target of every enemy horse archer?

I'd say your horse archers would perform a similiar task to Hippakontistai light skirmisher cavalry (but a lot better, obviously.)

Epirote units that should be useful on the steppe:

Hoplitai Haploi - cheap, effective garrison units - town square defenders.
Sphendonetai (Hellenic Slingers) - cheap AP missile unit to counter armoured Sauro FM's at long range, and as front-line arrow fodder.
Peltastai (Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers) - fast moving skirmisher to target armoured Sauro FM's at short range, with decent melee capability against foot archers as well. Armour helps them resist arrow fire.
Thureophoroi - fast-moving medium infantry with both javelins and spears to fight off enemy cavalry. Good for guarding archers and slingers with.
Prodromoi (Successor Medium Cavalry) - fast-moving melee cavalry with good chance of catching enemy horse archers if used well.

I've just started such a campaign, although I use Pontos instead :)

What I've found usefull, is to avoid open combat like the plague. Get some archers, (prefferably the Bosphoran heavy archers), and something like Thuerepois, or classical hoplites. Now let them come to you, the only heavy units they got, are their cav, and if you can deny the cav access to your cities, you don't have to worry. Yesterday, i managed to repel 2.2k with just 700 men, simply because my 1 unit of thurepoi, 2 units of bosphoran heavy archers, and a unite of hellenic native spearmen, slaughtered anything that got close :) If they had gained entrance to the city, I'd have been dead. Those bodyguards they got are nasty, and they had 2 groups of noble horse archers and roxoliani riders. Thankfully those got picked off by the machine gun towers... would of completely trashed me :)

(sadly, the game crashed on me)

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

Epirote units that should be useful on the steppe:

Peltastai (Hellenic Heavy Skirmishers) - fast moving skirmisher to target armoured Sauro FM's at short range, with decent melee capability against foot archers as well. Armour helps them resist arrow fire.
Prodromoi (Successor Medium Cavalry) - fast-moving melee cavalry with good chance of catching enemy horse archers if used well.

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These would be in the cathegory of " not to be used " . peltastai are dead against steppe with no2 shield & sword. Prodromoi...dead...fast...money wasted. Get foot archers and make a spearmen line in front of them to protect them and most problems go away.

Also , it is well in your power to create a HA army of yourself and destroy Sauromatae with their own weapons but more money.

There is a serious death of sources concerning the Bosphoran kingdom, so I doubt we know what kind of armies they fielded. Given their position at the edge of the steppe, I'd say it would be similar to the Bactrians: emphasis on cavalry (heavier and more disciplined than their steppe opponents) supplemented by hired or allied horse and foot archers.

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These would be in the cathegory of " not to be used " . peltastai are dead against steppe with no2 shield & sword. Prodromoi...dead...fast...money wasted. Get foot archers and make a spearmen line in front of them to protect them and most problems go away.

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agree on pletastai, probably the least usefull unit in the steppes, not a bad unit altogether but terrible in the steppes, use Bosphoran archers or, if you have to, thureophoroi instead they are much more usefull.
Prodromoi are not that bad against steppe troops, they are just that half of your army that should avoid being hit by arrows^^ actually the idea of a light-medium lancer in the steppes is not bad at all(see saka/bactrian medium cav) still I think "european" alternatives like getic cav, leuche epos and Illyrians are more cost efficient here, tho, sadly not availible so Lonchophoroi should be a good idea as they have a large shield.
personally I'd go for a core of Hellens and max the same amount of Nomadic troops. wheras the Hellens would include a rather large amout of archers and Cavalry, for a hellenic army that is ;)
oh not to forget HAs with spears and Scythian cav both quite usefull against AI HAs.

that's just my idea of a bosphoran army, EB2 will reveal what the EB thinks of them

The citizens of the Bosporas were very rich; in early times the citizens, when they went to war, fought in full bronze hoplite regalia; later they would be an effective medium-heavy cavalry force, equipped much like Sarmatian nobles, though their equipment would be of higher quality.

Scythians would be employed as mercenaries, and an elite force of 'picked' Scythian cavalry is mentioned in at least one battle. They had a good amount of professional thureos-equipped infantry and cavalry, with Thorakites-style infantry become more prominent with Roman influence.

In essence, what Ludens said - cavalry was very important to their armies, with a substantial force of thureos-armed infantry and cavalry.

EDIT:
Awww, after posting I noticed I'm completly offtopic...

Several months ago I did a KH as Bosphorans campaign. I didn't use historical armies since I started with such things in later campaigns. To beat the sauros go for siege or bridge battles. I mainly used armies with a small spearman core, many foot- and some horse-archers and changed bodyguards - Lonchophoroi with better stats. I wanted a relative fast cavalry with good defence against arrows. They have 10 armour and 4 shield, are too slow for light horse archers but faster then armoured ones so I used them to kill the noble cavalry and it worked very well. I killed 2 or 3 big armies of the sauros mainly by defending bridges and then attacked all neighbouring settlements, enslaved them, destroyed everything and left them. The Sauros came and asked for peace, a rare thing on very hard, but even if they don't do that at your campaign my method should weaken them enough that they wont by dangerous for many years. Also since the Hayasdan attack them every time it shouldn't be to hard.
Against greeks or barbarians you really can't lose with a bosphoran army, you have good infantry and superior ranged troops it's very easy.
Oh and the bosphoran heavy archers are probably the best thing against enemy archer armies. Place them in loose formation in the first line and they will take very low casualties while decemating the enemy troops.

as said above against steppe armies use missiles the bosphoran archers are your best defence against HA´s even if they aren´t in the steppes 3-4 hoptlite units in defensive mode guarded by 2 units of thuroporai on the flanks defending 3-5 units of bosphoran heavy archers and you got your core army had it up with 1-2 units of horse archers or scythian raiders to lure the sauro into shooting range and ofc your Fm unit combined with 1-2 units of heavy cavalry to help kill off the sauro family members

Yeah, Really be carefull with those Sauro FM's, they're seriously deadly. I sent 2 Fms with 60 and 50 man bodyguard units, to deal with a 70 men strong FM bodyguard... My guys got decimated, had to send in hoplites to pin them, and then make a new charge s:

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

I'm guessing from the troops available that it's a mixture of Hellenic and steppe units, though I'm struggling a little to imagine how horse archers would work together with infantry. What would be in a 14-unit stack?

How would you deal with Sauromatae horse archer armies? I've avoided them up to this point, opponents who you can't catch sound like an exercise in frustration. There's some foot archers with even longer range who'd integrate well into a regular army, but would they be the target of every enemy horse archer?

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I've been thinking about this for a bit. My impression is that steppe armies relied on harassment rather than direct fire-power. Even in set-piece battles they used a cycle of high-speed attacks and retreat. I doubt that they were able to score many hits (and casualties), but their targets would suffer a continuous barrage of arrows while being unable to strike back. This is terrifying even for experienced warriors, so the end result is that the target is goaded either into attacking or retreating. If the attack is coordinated, the horse archers simply fall back. If the attack is uncoordinated, they surround and cut down any groups that get separated from the main army.

In other words: to fight a steppe army you need to stop thinking in terms of "holding the field". The nomads don't care about the "field": the steppe is huge and they do not rely on agriculture. For a nomad, the most important thing is survival. He is not fighting for land, or glory, but to ensure that he, his family and his tribe make it through the next winter. The harassment tactics are part of that: they rely on persistence rather than damage and minimize exposure to enemy weapons. Countering these by recruiting foot archers or employing horse-archers of your own is quite likely to make steppe armies back down. They are not in it to demonstrate their superiority. Even moderate causalities can severely affect a tribe's ability to protect their land, and survive the winter, so they simply avoid risky targets.

So that explains how horse archers were integrated into settled armies: they were used as a screen to protect the heavy cavalry and (if present) infantry from being constantly harassed by hit-and-run tactics. None of these concepts translate very well to the TW engine though, so attempting to simulate history here will be very difficult.

Another element that cannot be simulated well is logistics. Steppe armies do not use supply lines or bases: their camps and herds travel with the army. (Or should I say that they are the army? Nomad society does not have a distinction between military and civilian.) In this, they can outlast and outmanoeuvre settled armies. However, this bare-bones approach to logistics brings its own problems: if they herds are threatened, the nomads have to back down since their survival depends on it. Also, they derive their superior mobility and endurance from their horses (every steppe warrior worth his salt has several to serve as remounts during battle), but these do require large amounts of grass. The nomads themselves may have very basic needs, but their herds and horses require them to move constantly. Again, this is not something that can be simulated properly in TW.

Well, I'll give it a shot, based on what the above people have said and the limitations of the game.

2 family members, also serving as your meh-grade heavy cavalry
1 Hippeis
2 scythian horse archers
4 foot archers (mix of locals and hellenes, no elites)
1 Sphendonetai
2 ekdromoi hoplitai
2 hoplitai haploi
1 epilektoi hoplitai
1 hoplitai (classic)

I don't really know how the Bosphoran greeks mixed their armies, but it seems reasonable to suggest that they'd use a combination of local tactics and good old greek hoplite stuff. The ekdromoi seem appropriate imo because they are one of the few hoplite types that have a prayer of cornering horse archers (with help).

As you can see, no akontistai/hippokontistai. Two reasons: 1. I don't like them and 2. they'd be utterly useless in the steppes, at least hoplites have shields and helmets that protect them well against arrows. And why offer arrow fodder when you don't need to?

edit: maybe skip the haploi if they were so rich, make it 3 ekdromoi and 2 classics instead.

so you go for the more traditional way without any thuro-users? definately a way to get a consistent army :)

tho I doubt the nobles of the krim would fight on foot rather than on horseback so imho epilektoi could be replaced with hippeis, Lonchophoroi, Xystophoroi, prodromoi, aspidophoroi(this is getting boring) or even a unit of scythian nobles.
for a rich poleis like yours 1 hoplitai seems a bit few I'd replace at least one of the haploi with them,
BUT as Haploi are not the worst thing to have when ... well actually all the time... you could use them in secondary armies or garrisons

Everything with the armor under 10 is cannon fodder for HA, in my experience. The only "hoplite like" infantry unit really capable of resisting them is, aside from Classical Hoplites", Thorakitai - normally i only manage to kill them from uphill shooting at their backs. The large shield doesn´t really help you, since it´s the tactics of the HA to surround you, and even AI seems to know that quite well. Once the enemy HA are out of ammunition, and tired, you can send your Prodromoi to finish them off.
But in any case: if you´d be a Lord of a Bosporian Kingdom, would you try to fight a mobile and swift mounted enemy with some infantry, or would you adjust and fight fire with fire? ;)

Not only that, levy hoplites are garrison troops, not for actual field armies.

I wouldn't use Koinon Hellenon, they serve an actual purpose in Greece. It's Epeiros who are disposable and thus the easiest to migrate.

Good points; I should've known ekdromoi get destroyed by flanking HA's:embarassed:

and since this is the field army, not garrison, of a wealthy polis:

2 family members, also serving as your meh-grade heavy cavalry
1 Hippeis
2 scythian horse archers
1 scythian riders
4 foot archers (mix of locals and hellenes, no elites)
1 Bosphoran heavy archers (how could I forget?)
3 hoplitai (classic)

Note that prodromoi are not available in the Crimea (according to the recruitment viewer). I've also ditched the slingers for the bosphoran heavy archers, can't believe I missed them!

As for heavy cavalry, one might replace a FM with some variety of Hetairoi, but having more than 2 heavy cavalry units, even in the main stack, seems a bit extravagant. Until you're very, very rich.

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Originally Posted by vollorix

Everything with the armor under 10 is cannon fodder for HA, in my experience. The only "hoplite like" infantry unit really capable of resisting them is, aside from Classical Hoplites", Thorakitai - normally i only manage to kill them from uphill shooting at their backs. The large shield doesn´t really help you, since it´s the tactics of the HA to surround you, and even AI seems to know that quite well.

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Indeed, Thorakitai are the bane of all horse units. They combine the advantages of Classical Hoplites with those of barbarian spearmen. I really hate to fight them, but I love to field them myself.

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Originally Posted by rotten

Good points; I should've known ekdromoi get destroyed by flanking HA's:embarassed:

and since this is the field army, not garrison, of a wealthy polis:

2 family members, also serving as your meh-grade heavy cavalry
1 Hippeis
2 scythian horse archers
1 scythian riders
4 foot archers (mix of locals and hellenes, no elites)
1 Bosphoran heavy archers (how could I forget?)
3 hoplitai (classic)

Note that prodromoi are not available in the Crimea (according to the recruitment viewer). I've also ditched the slingers for the bosphoran heavy archers, can't believe I missed them!

As for heavy cavalry, one might replace a FM with some variety of Hetairoi, but having more than 2 heavy cavalry units, even in the main stack, seems a bit extravagant. Until you're very, very rich.

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Given what's been said, I think the hippeis should be replaced with the heavy skirmisher cavalry (who I think are armoured enough to resist arrows) or dropped altogether. FMs are your heavy cavalry.

The four foot archers are arrow-fodder. Replace with:
2 Thureophoroi (later Thorakitai) - to cover the hoplites flanks
1-2 Bosphoran heavy archers
0-1 Peltastai

foot archers are arrow fodder? They work well enough for me. They're questionable on the attack versus sauros, but superb in defense and they own all forms of skirmisher except peltasts (still beat them though).
If you find them lacking, feel free to replace them, and some skirmisher cavalry would be nice if, unlike me, you can use them.
I'll take your word on the thorakitai, although used by the Sele AI they were only a nuisance to my hai archer army.
Also, hippeis are not heavy cavalry. They have 20 def and a +25 charge, which is... fine, but not heavy. The only proper heavy cavalry to have a lower charge than that are the Iberi Lanceari (23), and... nope, it says 43 in the file. I remember buffing their armor but not that.

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Originally Posted by rotten

foot archers are arrow fodder? They work well enough for me. They're questionable on the attack versus sauros, but superb in defense and they own all forms of skirmisher except peltasts (still beat them though).
If you find them lacking, feel free to replace them, and some skirmisher cavalry would be nice if, unlike me, you can use them.

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Well, toxotai (the "Hellene" archers - unless you were thinking Kretan mercs) are unarmoured and wouldn't last long. Are the Scythian foot archers better armoured?

I thought Bosphoran heavies would be the entirety of the foot archer contingent.

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Originally Posted by rotten

I'll take your word on the thorakitai, although used by the Sele AI they were only a nuisance to my hai archer army.
Also, hippeis are not heavy cavalry. They have 20 def and a +25 charge, which is... fine, but not heavy. The only proper heavy cavalry to have a lower charge than that are the Iberi Lanceari (23), and... nope, it says 43 in the file. I remember buffing their armor but not that.

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I figured thorakitai later (not straight away because they're supposed to be a later development), but thureophoroi in the meantime. Well-armoured and a bit more mobile than the hoplites.

Hippeis are just not very good mediums. Don't have the stamina of skirmishers, don't have the charge of heavier ones.

Too many heavy archers imo. Effective, yes, they will own almost every low level unit in the game, but not authentic. If we're going only for effective, then you don't need anything other than heavy foot archers (for cities), horse archers, mounted skirmishers and heavy cavalry, really.

Toxotai are unarmored, so are all other low grade foot archers, but, apart from their historicity, I take them because they win arrow duels vs all basic horse archers (on account of having more firepower and range - this might not be true for any unit without composite bows, though), because they're dirt cheap and if used correctly and in enough numbers their fire power is devastating. I once stopped a heavy seleukid phalanx and peltast army cold, and slaughtered them with an archer and horse archer only army. Most horse archer types aren't that well armored either and you have hoplitai, thureoporoi/thorakitai and heavy cavalry for that.

As for hippeis, they are inferior indeed, but if you want a local-dominated army you might as well play Sauromatae to begin with. The greeks would be a little too proud to let that army fight for them (and a little too afraid it might betray them, which it would) and if they got to the point of fielding heavy cavalry they would have some greek medium cavalry as well (and prodromoi are unavailable). A lot of people, myself included, complain that the AI's armies, apart from being misused, are poorly composed. Well, if we always use only the most effective units (which is not historical), that is exactly what will happen. Using hippeis is like a pre-Marian Roman player using the checkerboard formation instead of better tactics. It worked well enough irl (or not? they did change it after all) but the game engine doesn't work that way. Also, Roman equites, I'm told, are bad; but people still take them if they want to be historically correct, otherwise why not just take the better mercenaries available around them?

Anyway, it'd be almost impossible to fully agree on this; I'm aware that my model is severely lacking in javelin troops for example.

Maybe like this:
2 FM or 1 FM 1 heavy cavalry
1 Hippeis (or an extra horse archer or hippokontistai unit if you really mean to ditch them)
1 Scythian horse archers, or any simple horse archer
1 Hippokontistai
1 Bosphoran heavy archers
1 toxotai
1 local foot archers
1 peltastai
3 hoplitai (or mix them with pezhetairoi if you can get those as well)
2 thureophoroi into thorakitai

The benefit of this army is that it is not a gimmick army, and it won't autowin against any remotely reasonable composition without skill. Your spear line is good, but not really to the standards of other greek armies; your missile firepower is good, but not as good as what the nomads and armenians will have in a 14-stack. You'd have to really mix things up and use your diverse units together well to get the better of an even battle.

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Originally Posted by rotten

Too many heavy archers imo. Effective, yes, they will own almost every low level unit in the game, but not authentic. If we're going only for effective, then you don't need anything other than heavy foot archers (for cities), horse archers, mounted skirmishers and heavy cavalry, really.

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You think the Bosphorans qualify as elites? If so then I'd agree one unit is probably enough of them. We're not only going for effective, it's just that toxotai don't make a lot of sense for a rich kingdom who can draw on better local archers than them.

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Originally Posted by rotten

Toxotai are unarmored, so are all other low grade foot archers, but, apart from their historicity, I take them because they win arrow duels vs all basic horse archers (on account of having more firepower and range - this might not be true for any unit without composite bows, though), because they're dirt cheap and if used correctly and in enough numbers their fire power is devastating. I once stopped a heavy seleukid phalanx and peltast army cold, and slaughtered them with an archer and horse archer only army. Most horse archer types aren't that well armored either and you have hoplitai, thureoporoi/thorakitai and heavy cavalry for that.

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Toxotai have a shorter range than all the horse archers - they have the underpowered western European bow, not a composite one. Not only will they not win duels with horse archers, they'll be annihilated by them. Their firepower is decidedly paltry against anything that has armour (or even a decent shield). Compare with sphendenotai, who will devastate unarmoured units, and even take a heavy toll on armoured units from the front.

My point about their armour is this; why would AI horse archers waste ammo on the armoured units when there are these soft targets around? I certainly never use archers on armoured units when there are skirmishers around to be butchered. Again I don't think it makes a lot of sense that a rich kingdom would field pauper units (which is what toxotai, akontistai and hippokontistai are) that aren't locals.

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Originally Posted by rotten

As for hippeis, they are inferior indeed, but if you want a local-dominated army you might as well play Sauromatae to begin with. The greeks would be a little too proud to let that army fight for them (and a little too afraid it might betray them, which it would) and if they got to the point of fielding heavy cavalry they would have some greek medium cavalry as well (and prodromoi are unavailable). A lot of people, myself included, complain that the AI's armies, apart from being misused, are poorly composed. Well, if we always use only the most effective units (which is not historical), that is exactly what will happen. Using hippeis is like a pre-Marian Roman player using the checkerboard formation instead of better tactics. It worked well enough irl (or not? they did change it after all) but the game engine doesn't work that way. Also, Roman equites, I'm told, are bad; but people still take them if they want to be historically correct, otherwise why not just take the better mercenaries available around them?

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You've got FMs for your "Hellene cavalry". That's exactly what I do when playing Romans, no need to recruit equites when your FMs are surrounded by them. Hippeis are just an extra cavalry unit that doesn't really serve a purpose. Those heavy skirmishers on the other hand would work if you want a genuinely separate Hellenic cavalry unit.

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Originally Posted by rotten

Anyway, it'd be almost impossible to fully agree on this; I'm aware that my model is severely lacking in javelin troops for example.

Maybe like this:
2 FM or 1 FM 1 heavy cavalry
1 Hippeis (or an extra horse archer or hippokontistai unit if you really mean to ditch them)
1 Scythian horse archers, or any simple horse archer
1 Hippokontistai
1 Bosphoran heavy archers
1 toxotai
1 local foot archers
1 peltastai
3 hoplitai (or mix them with pezhetairoi if you can get those as well)
2 thureophoroi into thorakitai

The benefit of this army is that it is not a gimmick army, and it won't autowin against any remotely reasonable composition without skill. Your spear line is good, but not really to the standards of other greek armies; your missile firepower is good, but not as good as what the nomads and armenians will have in a 14-stack. You'd have to really mix things up and use your diverse units together well to get the better of an even battle.

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I mostly agree with the above, though I'd ditch the hippeis for heavy skirmisher cavalry, not use the hippokontistai, and have two or three horse archers (so total six cavalry). Then change the toxotai for another local foot archer. Total fifteen units, removing the peltastai and/or the heavy skirmisher cavalry if I wanted to reduce stack size.

Hippakontistai are not paupers, they may be called levy or militia but not paupers. they are abit like the Merchant cav in M2TW.
they may not be welltrained but they are composed of upper middleclass and lower nonlemen's sons, thus even above the Hoplitai in social status. plus, as Horses are probably easier to attain on the Crim than the Peleponnes I'd guess that they'd be pretty common, at least in times of need that is ;) Hippakontistai are (contrary to their use in EB as first cav recruitable for KH) a sign for a rich but threatened state, at least when combined with real cavalry to represent the real nobles ;)

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

Hippakontistai are not paupers, they may be called levy or militia but not paupers. they are abit like the Merchant cav in M2TW.
they may not be welltrained but they are composed of upper middleclass and lower nonlemen's sons, thus even above the Hoplitai in social status. plus, as Horses are probably easier to attain on the Crim than the Peleponnes I'd guess that they'd be pretty common, at least in times of need that is ;) Hippakontistai are (contrary to their use in EB as first cav recruitable for KH) a sign for a rich but threatened state, at least when combined with real cavalry to represent the real nobles ;)

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Which could justify them being part of a garrison (representing bodies of troops existing amongst the population), but not really in field armies except in an emergency. Same as levy hoplites or levy skirmishers, both of whom I use in garrisons for this reason. I think they do a more feasible job of working with the mechanics of the game without having unrealistic levels of militarisation in your settlements. I should note I station my armies in forts outside the settlements, rather than in them.

Well, i'm not that familiar with javelin cavalry, that's why I put hippokontistai. Any hellenes, locals and other bastard varieties will do. You're probably right about toxotai, the bosphorans probably used them once, they got raped by composite bow archers and they never looked back anyway.

With heavy archers, I've encountered the Persian variety and they win archery duels vs light archers with composite bows easily. I generally had to chase them with cavalry, and they even put up a good fight against scythian horse archers in melee. If they're anything to go by, don't bring too many units of bosphoran heavy archers to a fight or you'll win too easily and with no satisfaction.

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Originally Posted by rotten

With heavy archers, I've encountered the Persian variety and they win archery duels vs light archers with composite bows easily. I generally had to chase them with cavalry, and they even put up a good fight against scythian horse archers in melee. If they're anything to go by, don't bring too many units of bosphoran heavy archers to a fight or you'll win too easily and with no satisfaction.

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Heavy Persians have better range than Bosphorans, but the latter are better armoured with a shield to boot. Plus they carry a sword that is twice as lethal as anything normal archers get.
For light archers, you should use Skythian Foot Archers. They are unarmoured but sport a very good range, similar to the heavy Persian dudes.

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Which could justify them being part of a garrison (representing bodies of troops existing amongst the population), but not really in field armies except in an emergency. Same as levy hoplites or levy skirmishers, both of whom I use in garrisons for this reason. I think they do a more feasible job of working with the mechanics of the game without having unrealistic levels of militarisation in your settlements. I should note I station my armies in forts outside the settlements, rather than in them.

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I agree with this, I just wanted to "get ridd of" the word Pauper. they're not the thing for a main army.
tho Arkontistai could be well viewed as appropriate for a main army as Hellens always had a contingent of psiloi with them and this includes Toxotai Sphendotai AND Arkontistai. on the other side there are "emergency units" like Haploi and Hippakontistai who are only called apon when you are at the verge of extingtion.
Hippakontistai also make a good(roleplaywise) captains unit when a settlement rebels to you. in my "current" KH campaign Sinope(or trapezous not sure) rebelled to me(what supprise) with some(5) mixed levy infantry and a unit of Hippakontistai as "command unit" so I roleplayed that after the nobles got striped of their properties the Greek Merchants spured an uprising against the pontic oppression and animated the lower classes to join their rebellion.
sadly they all died before my relief force arrived ^^

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Originally Posted by rotten

Well, i'm not that familiar with javelin cavalry, that's why I put hippokontistai. Any hellenes, locals and other bastard varieties will do.

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I found out what they're called, they're Hetairoi Aspidophoroi.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...pidophoroi.gif

Like Thureophoroi, they're a way of demonstrating that the Bosphorans are keeping up with military developments in the Hellenistic world.

If you're going to use any medium cavalry, the Lonchophoroi Hippeis are better and again more "modern":

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/u...nchophoroi.gif

They're also the bodyguard Hellenistic Mercenary Generals use.

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Originally Posted by rotten

You're probably right about toxotai, the bosphorans probably used them once, they got raped by composite bow archers and they never looked back anyway.

With heavy archers, I've encountered the Persian variety and they win archery duels vs light archers with composite bows easily. I generally had to chase them with cavalry, and they even put up a good fight against scythian horse archers in melee. If they're anything to go by, don't bring too many units of bosphoran heavy archers to a fight or you'll win too easily and with no satisfaction.

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I agree on both fronts, too many heavy archers and it stops being both challenging and realistic. Though they're archer-swordsmen, rather than archer-spearmen (which I believe the Persians are), which would make them less durable against cavalry.

I think six cavalry (including FMs, max three horse archers) and nine infantry (max three archers) gives a good mix that is distinctively non-nomadic and interesting. It's the Greek-regional fusion that makes all these migrated factions interesting to me.

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

I agree with this, I just wanted to "get ridd of" the word Pauper. they're not the thing for a main army.
tho Arkontistai could be well viewed as appropriate for a main army as Hellens always had a contingent of psiloi with them and this includes Toxotai Sphendotai AND Arkontistai. on the other side there are "emergency units" like Haploi and Hippakontistai who are only called apon when you are at the verge of extingtion.
Hippakontistai also make a good(roleplaywise) captains unit when a settlement rebels to you. in my "current" KH campaign Sinope(or trapezous not sure) rebelled to me(what supprise) with some(5) mixed levy infantry and a unit of Hippakontistai as "command unit" so I roleplayed that after the nobles got striped of their properties the Greek Merchants spured an uprising against the pontic oppression and animated the lower classes to join their rebellion.
sadly they all died before my relief force arrived ^^

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Fair enough, I take your point.

Comparing the Lonchophoroi and the Aspidophoroi doesn't make sense - the two play separate roles.

Now, javelin cavalry are rather underpowered in EB when compared with lancers, which are at a relatively fair power level, and we intend to fix this in NOM by the melee power of non-lance cavalry weapons, and decreasing the cost of non-lance cavalry (except horse archers).

When I played EB Online, before my Hamachi screwed up (finally got it running again but homework is getting the better of me these days) I favored the Sauromatae - the weakest of the steppe factions in terms of armour, etc. and probably not favored against other Steppe factions, but they enjoy some key advantages:

-Access to Bastarnae. While crap against missiles, your HAs will take the brunt of enemy missile attacks. Keep these away from missiles and they're golden shock infantry.
-Scythian Nobles - Very cost-efficient, superior lancers; better than Lonchophoroi and significantly cheaper
-Aorsi/Scythian Riders - much less expensive than Dahae and much more effective than Saka Riders (since overhand cav spears are so bad in EB). Much better than horse archers, since they pack a charge that will actually put the smackdown on wavering enemies or flanks/rear

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Originally Posted by gamegeek2

Comparing the Lonchophoroi and the Aspidophoroi doesn't make sense - the two play separate roles.

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I think he meant that both are the best things the KH factional barrack has against sauros, In which I agree. he just compared lonchophoroi to hippeis.

yep @ sauromatae are real good at getting effective light-medium troops rather fast without too many heavy troops availible.

Gotta voice in again: There's no way, that I'd ever use toxotoi unless it was for a cheap garrison unit/I was in dire need. Especially not, when you got access to the very cheap skythian foot archers too. As others have said, why would a rich city/kingdom, use one of the worst archers in the game, when they have access to other cheap, and alot more efficient, archers?

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Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

I agree on both fronts, too many heavy archers and it stops being both challenging and realistic. Though they're archer-swordsmen, rather than archer-spearmen (which I believe the Persians are), which would make them less durable against cavalry.

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Heavy Persians carry swords.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units...anvare_pay.gifThese have knives. (0.04)
https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units...h_eransahr.gifSpears. (0.13)
https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units...tithanvare.gifSwords. (0.1)

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Originally Posted by gamegeek2

Comparing the Lonchophoroi and the Aspidophoroi doesn't make sense - the two play separate roles.

Now, javelin cavalry are rather underpowered in EB when compared with lancers, which are at a relatively fair power level, and we intend to fix this in NOM by the melee power of non-lance cavalry weapons, and decreasing the cost of non-lance cavalry (except horse archers).

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I was comparing Aspidophoroi to Hippokontistai, and Lonchophoroi to regular Hippeis. Comparing two kinds of skirmisher cavalry and two kinds of medium cavalry.

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Originally Posted by gamegeek2

When I played EB Online, before my Hamachi screwed up (finally got it running again but homework is getting the better of me these days) I favored the Sauromatae - the weakest of the steppe factions in terms of armour, etc. and probably not favored against other Steppe factions, but they enjoy some key advantages:

-Access to Bastarnae. While crap against missiles, your HAs will take the brunt of enemy missile attacks. Keep these away from missiles and they're golden shock infantry.
-Scythian Nobles - Very cost-efficient, superior lancers; better than Lonchophoroi and significantly cheaper
-Aorsi/Scythian Riders - much less expensive than Dahae and much more effective than Saka Riders (since overhand cav spears are so bad in EB). Much better than horse archers, since they pack a charge that will actually put the smackdown on wavering enemies or flanks/rear

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Meh, not interested in a genuine steppe faction. The fun here is playing a (migrated) Hellenic-regional fusion. Just like playing Massilia with Greek and Celtic units.

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

I think he meant that both are the best things the KH factional barrack has against sauros, In which I agree. he just compared lonchophoroi to hippeis.

yep @ sauromatae are real good at getting effective light-medium troops rather fast without too many heavy troops availible.

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Epirote, but yes.

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Originally Posted by A_Dane

Gotta voice in again: There's no way, that I'd ever use toxotoi unless it was for a cheap garrison unit/I was in dire need. Especially not, when you got access to the very cheap skythian foot archers too. As others have said, why would a rich city/kingdom, use one of the worst archers in the game, when they have access to other cheap, and alot more efficient, archers?

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Heavy Persians carry swords.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units...anvare_pay.gifThese have knives. (0.04)
https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units...h_eransahr.gifSpears. (0.13)
https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units...tithanvare.gifSwords. (0.1)

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Ah, I stand corrected. In which case the two are fairly comparable.

Here's my starting position, with two likely targets scoped:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...271BCstart.jpg

Both settlements have identical garrisons, as you can see money is a bit of a problem right now and I don't have an army.

Hmm, bit harsh with those two eleutheroi stacks near your cities. They'll probably screw it up royally though. Is that a full stack in Tanaris and an almost full stack near it?

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Originally Posted by athanaric

Heavy Persians carry swords.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units...anvare_pay.gifThese have knives. (0.04)
https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units...h_eransahr.gifSpears. (0.13)
https://europabarbarorum.com/i/units...tithanvare.gifSwords. (0.1)

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But the Bosporan Heavy Archers carry longswords with 0.225 lethality, they are a lot more powerful.

Regarding Toxotai, I'd say they are a definite no no for the steppe, they have crappy range (143m) and a very poor amount of arrows (15).

As others have pointed out, it would be pretty illogical for the Bosporans to use inferior troops such as the Toxotai when they have abundant access to the best archers in Europe.

I had to conqueror Olbia first, from the Sauros in my game. There was no way in hell, I could aquire Pantikapaion because of the that Eleutheroi stack next to it.

Strangely enough, the Sauros agreed to peace afterwards... even though I killed their FM.

Gave me enough time, to build up my barracks & get a steady cash flow, to when they finally did attack again :D

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Originally Posted by rotten

Hmm, bit harsh with those two eleutheroi stacks near your cities. They'll probably screw it up royally though. Is that a full stack in Tanaris and an almost full stack near it?

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No, Tanais is empty, probably just a FM there. Not interested in going in that direction besides Tanais; the region is resource-poor, spread out and vulnerable to the Sauromatae. Kallatis and Sinope on the other hand are nice, fat targets. Though might be difficult to defend later on. Kallatis may be easier if I have a nomad client ruler and horse archer force to defend it from the Getai and Makedonians.

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Originally Posted by A_Dane

I had to conqueror Olbia first, from the Sauros in my game. There was no way in hell, I could aquire Pantikapaion because of the that Eleutheroi stack next to it.

Strangely enough, the Sauros agreed to peace afterwards... even though I killed their FM.

Gave me enough time, to build up my barracks & get a steady cash flow, to when they finally did attack again :D

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I'm looking at Kallatis and Sinope as more urgent targets than Olbia. I think both will provide more money.

I just realised my earlier commentary about cavalry is kind of moot; I can't recruit Lonchophoroi or Aspidophoroi in either settlement, I'm too far outside the Epirote core.

My main problem was this: A) I had to fight the Eleutheroi army near Chersenessos too (it attacked me), so didn't have enough money/men, to actually go take Sinope, It got a pretty large garrison.
b) I'll need a cavalry wing later in the game, and Skythian nobles would be perfect for that, Olbia would make a great place to build up, as a place to recruit those guys.
c) the seleucids took my capital right after I got chersenessos, so If i took sinope, I'd be in war with them much sooner than i wanted to, and the Sauros would attack eventually.
Hence my choice fell on the weakly garrisoned, but rather large, city of Olbia :) Your game might be evolving differently, just throwing it out there :)

I'm just realising, I should probably have taken Tanais, rather than Chersonesus as my other starting settlement, since it's the other half of the Bosphorous. Either way, all the lands on the Black Sea coast are my targets eventually, though they may prove difficult to defend unless I use a navy to transport my main army(ies) about.

I'm looking at this idea again, as my second game now things are a bit more settled in my new Pergamon game. Taking the "anyone with less than 10 armour is a pincushion" principle, the units I need to build a field army (rather than garrison) with are thus:

Classical Hoplites
Thuerophoroi (and later Thorakitai)
Thrakian Peltastai
Bosporan Heavy Archers
Thrakian Prodromoi

Then perhaps a couple of local foot archers (Scythian, not Greek) who'll get murdered, but are cheap to replace. Once again I'm trying to avoid just fielding my own horse archers, though I may have one unit in the stack.

Hmmm, I'm being reminded why this experiment failed last time: money. I've got Pantikapaion and Tanais, and even with some rapid development with add_money and process_cq, I can't pull in enough to maintain their garrisons of two levy hoplites and two levy skirmishers each. Though Tanais currently has a Client Ruler, which isn't helping. Even so, lacking the plentiful mines of Asia Minor that my Pergamon game has, I don't think the Bosporan Kingdom can be self-sustaining.

EDIT: Lost the client ruler and shrunk the garrison of Tanais a little and I'm now making a (small) profit every season. Assuming the harvest is good (in which case it's a loss). No idea how I'm going to recruit an army from this economic base!

in eb2 the garrisoned units don´t cost upkeep up to a point so you can keep your elite units kind of saved

as for the army formation it seems wierd that you would use cavalry thraikioi units and not the greek light medium or noble equivalents
also slingers and archers particulary should be in a fair amount in any bosphoran army since they must fight the heavy lancers slingers from the sides or back shooting at them is a must or use slingers to target them specifically forcing them to come to you and then use the peltastai to flank crossfire them and finally engulf them on multiple fronts

horse archers you can just deplet them with classics and hoploi on defensive move turning towards them and they´ll run out of arrows and after that you just have to make sure a unit isn´t trampled down (massive horse units envolving 1 single unit at a time is a tactic i use particulary with the german cavalary and it breaks them easy and with so many horses you can do it 5 to 6 times before the horses get tired and you must rest those units behinde your general and foot troops )

against a steppe army deplet their horse archers with the hoplitais force their armoured unit to engage the phallanx line flank them with thureporoi or peltastai cross fire them and engulf them meanwhile your cavalary units should be busy either chasing their foot archers or preventing their horse archers from providing suport to their armoured units already engaged

So after nearly 15 years (60 turns!) of building up my economy in Pantikapaion and Tanais and hoping no one took notice of me (having stone walls around both settlements helped - I think that deterred the Sauromatae better than the puny garrisons did), I'm finally in a position to recruit my well-armoured force and strike out at Chersonesos. It has a large garrison of variable quality, but it's also got stone walls and has virtually everything I need development-wise, so it's an instant boost and recruitment centre.

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Originally Posted by moonburn

in eb2 the garrisoned units don´t cost upkeep up to a point so you can keep your elite units kind of saved

as for the army formation it seems wierd that you would use cavalry thraikioi units and not the greek light medium or noble equivalents
also slingers and archers particulary should be in a fair amount in any bosphoran army since they must fight the heavy lancers slingers from the sides or back shooting at them is a must or use slingers to target them specifically forcing them to come to you and then use the peltastai to flank crossfire them and finally engulf them on multiple fronts

horse archers you can just deplet them with classics and hoploi on defensive move turning towards them and they´ll run out of arrows and after that you just have to make sure a unit isn´t trampled down (massive horse units envolving 1 single unit at a time is a tactic i use particulary with the german cavalary and it breaks them easy and with so many horses you can do it 5 to 6 times before the horses get tired and you must rest those units behinde your general and foot troops )

against a steppe army deplet their horse archers with the hoplitais force their armoured unit to engage the phallanx line flank them with thureporoi or peltastai cross fire them and engulf them meanwhile your cavalary units should be busy either chasing their foot archers or preventing their horse archers from providing suport to their armoured units already engaged

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I don't really need elite units; after all I'm playing with migrated Epeiros outside of its core zone, I can only build a type III in the settlements I have. Bosporan Heavy Archers are about as elite as it gets in these parts.

Greek light cavalry are worthless here; they're too slow to catch horse archers and too lightly armoured not to get pincushioned. Essentially any unit with less than 10 armour is a waste of money (levy hoplites are only good for garrison duty, only classical are heavy enough for the battle line). Thus regular archers and slingers are pointless; they'll be dead long before they get many shots off. Even regular (non-Thrakioi) peltastai aren't armoured enough, though they might do in a pinch.

As to Greek noble cavalry (or even Thessalians or others), I can't recruit them and in any case I've got Family Members to spare as my heavies (up to four non-governor FMs now - it'll be three once I've installed one in Chersonesos). I've found Molosson Agema much better than proper heavy cavalry, because they don't tire so fast. You shouldn't be hanging around in melee, which is the only reason really heavy armour is useful.

I've just queued up the bulk of this force, so we'll see how effective it is soon.

My heavy force proved up to the job of taking Chersonesos, with only 25% losses, which isn't bad for an assault on a stone-walled city with a garrison the same size as the assaulting force. My royal army is currently:
3 Hoplitai
2 Thureophoroi
1 Thrakian Peltastai
1 Bosporan Heavy Archer
1 Scythian Foot Archer
4 Family Members (Molosson Agema)

I also had a unit of Sphendonetai to keep the defender's heads down, but disbanded them once the city was taken, since they're useless in the field against horse archers. Those were all the "spare" FMs I had and I can't afford cavalry of my own.

My economic situation has gone from dicey (I was losing a small amount of money every turn as a result of those troops) to healthily positive again. Three settlements seems to be the right number to maintain a separate army in this part of the world. Next: Olbia, though I need to consolidate some first, that has a near-full stack inside.

At the risk of turning this into a sort of AAR, I'm now poised to take Olbia, after several failed Sauromatae sieges significantly reduced the garrison. I'll be building stone walls as a priority; several times now puny Sauromatae stacks have sniffed around, found stone-walled settlements and wandered off. They didn't like the look of my royal army, either, though I'm sure once I've got Olbia and border them in a number of places and bar any southwestward advancement they'll decide it's worth a go.

My dominion in 239BC - just about to liberate the Greeks of Sinope from the Pontic yoke:

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/...53862641_n.jpg

Also the world map zoomed a bit - you can tell how extensively I've been messing with AI advancement by the amount of still-independent areas:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...ac1f95cb2a9472