Suggestions to improve the org

1.) Create content.

There are a number of cool content features here at the org, from the social groups to the front page and blogs. Most users have access to these features in some form or another, but it'd be very nice to see a steady stream of content from those who actually maintain the site. No. I don't mean dumping it all on Tosa either, or expecting him to conjure up things on his own. The org has an entire team of moderators. One of them has spare time I assure you.

Example: The CMS (front page) has been a weak spot here for years and almost never gets updates. When i left last year I was happy that it at least appeared someone was going forward in my stead with those updates. Sadly I can see that's not the case. Some real opportunities were missed here with the lead up to S2. I still have access to the Sega PR site and every single day exclusive trailers and screenshots were landing in my inbox. Sometimes weeks before they were hitting most major news sites. I never saw those mentioned here at the .Org either in a thread about S2 or on the front page. The reason I didn't bother to post them here is simple: I didn't care. :no:

2) Have moderators who actually post in their assigned sections.

I dunno. Seems pretty straight forward. A mod team interested in things other than the Tavern would be great. I know how it is, its easy to get stuck in the hum-drum of moderating. You clean up spam and deal with reported posts then you just browse and take off. Still. Would be nice to see the moderators acting like forum leaders instead of just invisible custodians. There's some on the green team who actually do what I'm asking, others not at all.

Example: The Arena has two assigned moderators but it is effectively a dead forum.

3.) Give people a reason to register

Why should anyone join the Org at all? I'll wait while you think of something. No, you're not allowed to say "community".

4.) Update things. For god's sake.

There are things around the site, things like lists of moderators or rule threads, that are just old and outdated. One still lists barocca as an administrator. Having these things go untouched for so long is.. well. It gives off an atmosphere of apathy. Which is furthest from the truth, I know you greens and reds work hard. The entire site has that old feeling to it like it's not been updated in ages.


That's all I can think of really, and its a pretty straight forward list. No, I don't care if I should post this in public or private because quite honestly I know what will happen if I post it privately. Maybe putting it in public will strike a nerve suffecient enough to get something to happen. Or maybe not. :juggle2: Either way ball's in your court folks, let's see what you do with it.

Originally Posted by Monk:
1.) Create content.

There are a number of cool content features here at the org, from the social groups to the front page and blogs. Most users have access to these features in some form or another, but it'd be very nice to see a steady stream of content from those who actually maintain the site. No. I don't mean dumping it all on Tosa either, or expecting him to conjure up things on his own. The org has an entire team of moderators. One of them has spare time I assure you.

Example: The CMS (front page) has been a weak spot here for years and almost never gets updates. When i left last year I was happy that it at least appeared someone was going forward in my stead with those updates. Sadly I can see that's not the case. Some real opportunities were missed here with the lead up to S2. I still have access to the Sega PR site and every single day exclusive trailers and screenshots were landing in my inbox. Sometimes weeks before they were hitting most major news sites. I never saw those mentioned here at the .Org either in a thread about S2 or on the front page. The reason I didn't bother to post them here is simple: I didn't care. :no:

I think this is a chicken before egg scenario. Content will appear once more people come through the turnstiles and start getting actively involved - at present that is not the case, so asking people to just get off their arses and create content won't cut it. I appreciate what you're saying and in the ideal world I would agree with you, but this is not the ideal world.

Originally Posted by Monk:
2) Have moderators who actually post in their assigned sections.

I dunno. Seems pretty straight forward. A mod team interested in things other than the Tavern would be great. I know how it is, its easy to get stuck in the hum-drum of moderating. You clean up spam and deal with reported posts then you just browse and take off. Still. Would be nice to see the moderators acting like forum leaders instead of just invisible custodians. There's some on the green team who actually do what I'm asking, others not at all.

Example: The Arena has two assigned moderators but it is effectively a dead forum.

It needs to be said that there are simply far too many moderators on this board. Recently there seems to have been a recruitment drive and now the frontroom has 4 moderators?! What on earth are these people going to do? There is just no need for that level of moderation on an offtopic forum.

People wonder why the frontroom is dead - it's because it's being stifled by staff that seem to be on a crusade to clean it up. Clean up what exactly? It's dead, there's nothing to do there, nothing to clean up. The reason you see problem threads, is because there are no other threads in there - so the problem threads stick out. When you post something and a moderator jumps on you and edits or send you a PM, that puts people off posting at all. If the board was a lot busier the mods would not have the time to "micro-moderate" every post.

The sword dojo now has two mods... there have only been a handful of posts this month so far in there. It's obvious to me and to others that I've spoken with as to what needs to be done - assign one or two moderators over the whole STW/MTW section and be done with it. At least that will give those involved a decent workload. At the moment it doesn't warrant one moderator let alone two.

Originally Posted by Monk:
3.) Give people a reason to register

Why should anyone join the Org at all? I'll wait while you think of something. No, you're not allowed to say "community".

I can think of no reason to join the .org or stay at the .org these days. I stay here to stay in contact with a few old friends, but that's it. There is no good reason for a new person to sign up here.

Originally Posted by Monk:
4.) Update things. For god's sake.

There are things around the site, things like lists of moderators or rule threads, that are just old and outdated. One still lists barocca as an administrator. Having these things go untouched for so long is.. well. It gives off an atmosphere of apathy. Which is furthest from the truth, I know you greens and reds work hard. The entire site has that old feeling to it like it's not been updated in ages.


That's all I can think of really, and its a pretty straight forward list. No, I don't care if I should post this in public or private because quite honestly I know what will happen if I post it privately. Maybe putting it in public will strike a nerve suffecient enough to get something to happen. Or maybe not. :juggle2: Either way ball's in your court folks, let's see what you do with it.

Yes. The reason there is an atmosphere of apathy, is because there is apathy and complacency here.

Originally Posted by Monk:
Example: The Arena has two assigned moderators but it is effectively a dead forum.

Pfffff! :snobby:

You have no idea, first of all I'm having an exam phase so I'm also not playing a lot, so I don't have a lot to post about lately.
Secondly I've personally encouraged the posting of a thread AND sent people from the Gameroom there because they were discussing the game in the middle of a mafia thread. The problem isn't that people don't play games or don't want to discuss about them, it's that they either feel others don't want to discuss them or that they start talking about them everywhere but in The Arena for reasons I haven't yet studied.
For example quite a few people in the chat are Playing Fallout:NV but none of them have posted in the Arena about it because they just lost interest in posting here for some reason long before people complained about the forum being dead.

Now the beauty of having two moderators is that neither I nor CR are awake/online 24/7 and people have already complained about the response times to reported posts in other sections.
You can't have your cake and eat it, too! :furious3:

Originally Posted by Husar:
people have already complained about the response times to reported posts in other sections.

Easily solved by having what they have on other boards and which were temporarily introduced that .org, very successfully, during my time: Global Moderators. Failing that, existing moderators could be given larger chunks of the .org to cover, instead of taking on more and more moderators. This would remove the need for having specific moderators assigned to every single forum - especially relevant to "dead" or low activity fora.

Originally Posted by Caravel:
Easily solved by having what they have on other boards and which were temporarily introduced that .org, very successfully, during my time: Global Moderators. Failing that, existing moderators could be given larger chunks of the .org to cover, instead of taking on more and more moderators. This would remove the need for having specific moderators assigned to every single forum - especially relevant to "dead" or low activity fora.

Will the global moderators also get complaints about not creating any content in all of these "dead fora" they reside over?

It's not for the staff to "create content"... This is a discussion forum, a "community", not a blog and not a news site - it's continued survival depends on members interacting here freely, not within rigid and artificial constraints. It's for every member here to "create content", by their own free will. Not through coercion, not through being told to get off their arses and post.

If the staff can get off the members' backs and let them be themselves this place may start to recover. The current climate of staff playing social worker and aggressively moderating every single word, spat, debate or issue, is what's killing this forum slowly but surely.

Originally Posted by Husar:
Pfffff! :snobby:

You have no idea, first of all I'm having an exam phase so I'm also not playing a lot, so I don't have a lot to post about lately.

You say that like I don't know what it is to have a life or haven't been moderator before. But I have, twice as an AM and twice as green. I know exactly what it's like to balance the Org and your life. I also know that this place gets shoved on the back burner for a lot of the staff. General perception browsing the forums is that there isn't much going on behind the scenes since there seems to be little effort in the foreground.

Originally Posted by :
For example quite a few people in the chat are Playing Fallout:NV but none of them have posted in the Arena about it because they just lost interest in posting here for some reason long before people complained about the forum being dead..

That's one hell of a perception problem, and with the appeared neglect that the arena receives from the top down I can see why it continues to perpetuate. Ain't meaning to insult you Husar or put you on the defensive. I'm telling you what I see.

Originally Posted by :
You can't have your cake and eat it, too!

I always thought the purpose of having cake was to, in fact, eat it. If i was wrong maybe I should re-examine my life's priorities - and maybe the Org should too. Why exist if you're not going to attempt to grow or improve?

Originally Posted by Caravel :
I think this is a chicken before egg scenario. Content will appear once more people come through the turnstiles and start getting actively involved - at present that is not the case, so asking people to just get off their arses and create content won't cut it. I appreciate what you're saying and in the ideal world I would agree with you, but this is not the ideal world.

We've disagreed before over this and I'll be happy to do so again. :laugh4: I'm of the exact opposite thinking. I'm not asking for huge blow-outs but having a regularly updated frontpage (for example) would go a long way to making this place feel alive. When i was writing articles for it, maybe it was bias, but it feel like this place got just a little more lively.

Originally Posted by Caravel:
If the staff can get off the members' backs and let them be themselves this place may start to recover. The current climate of staff playing social worker and aggressively moderating every single word, spat, debate or issue, is what's killing this forum slowly but surely.

The moderators do a great job of oppressing the members and suppressing free will making sure the ORG is respectful and decent place and not a clone of 4chan. I can't really fault the moderators for the work they have done, because when they "get on my back", I have pretty much deserved their ire in the first place.

If you have been naughty, don't get in a grump about it, be grown up about it and move on. I doubt there is anyone out there to get you.

Originally Posted by Beskar:
The moderators do a great job of oppressing the members and suppressing free will making sure the ORG is respectful and decent place and not a clone of 4chan. I can't really fault the moderators for the work they have done, because when they "get on my back", I have pretty much deserved their ire in the first place.

So without the moderators reading over our shoulders, all the idiots here, excluding yourself of course, will simply run riot and turn the place into a flamefest? Nonsense.

Originally Posted by Beskar:
If you have been naughty, don't get in a grump about it, be grown up about it and move on. I doubt there is anyone out there to get you.

Do you honestly believe I need a lesson on this from you?

Originally Posted by Caravel:
So without the moderators reading over our shoulders, all the idiots here, excluding yourself of course, will simply run riot and turn the place into a flamefest? Nonsense.


Do you honestly believe I need a lesson on this from you?

Ease up on them guns Caravel. :sweetheart:

Purpose of this thread was not to throw mud in the eye of the moderators or start a fight. The original purpose was to offer real suggestions to real problems. I'm not so alarmist as to say the org will collapse tomorrow if no one listens to or agrees with this thread, but these are all (imo) real problems the site faces and could do well to address them.

This whole thing with moderators is a fuss about nothing since:

a. why does it matter if we have more mods than we really need?
b. they are not even that strict imo anyway

tbh, I know that I've posted probably some of the most offensive stuff in the Backroom, and often post very, very un-Frontroomish things (heck, you would not expect it in the Backroom) in the Frontroom, and nobody really cares.

Obviously it is because I am part of the "in-club" from posting in the girl threads. :smug:

Interesting thread.

Originally Posted by Monk:
1.) Create content.

There are a number of cool content features here at the org, from the social groups to the front page and blogs. Most users have access to these features in some form or another, but it'd be very nice to see a steady stream of content from those who actually maintain the site. No. I don't mean dumping it all on Tosa either, or expecting him to conjure up things on his own. The org has an entire team of moderators. One of them has spare time I assure you.

Example: The CMS (front page) has been a weak spot here for years and almost never gets updates. When i left last year I was happy that it at least appeared someone was going forward in my stead with those updates. Sadly I can see that's not the case. Some real opportunities were missed here with the lead up to S2. I still have access to the Sega PR site and every single day exclusive trailers and screenshots were landing in my inbox. Sometimes weeks before they were hitting most major news sites. I never saw those mentioned here at the .Org either in a thread about S2 or on the front page. The reason I didn't bother to post them here is simple: I didn't care. :no:

Going off the front page example, is that something that people would like? Serious question, I've been here for years and I have to admit barely ever glancing at the front page. I always went straight to the forums

Originally Posted by :
2) Have moderators who actually post in their assigned sections.

I do. Somewhat to my chagrin I post almost exclusively in my section, although I've tried to make more forays elsewhere since becoming a moderator.

Originally Posted by :
3.) Give people a reason to register

Why should anyone join the Org at all? I'll wait while you think of something. No, you're not allowed to say "community".

For me that's easy. The main reason I joined and stayed at the Org would fall under the "community" answer, but there is one other thing. In addition to a healthy hotseat community that I could probably find elsewhere we have the TW Rpgs. I'd never seen anything like them when I joined KotR years ago and I'm not aware of similar games being done elsewhere. I know that might not be what you're looking for but it is something I find here at the Org and not anywhere else. A strong runner up after that would be that the EB team makes their home here, whose mod has provided the vast bulk of my single player tw playing for years.

Originally Posted by :
4.) Update things. For god's sake.

Good point, I should take another look at the stickies in the Throne Room...

Originally Posted by Zim:
Interesting thread.



Going off the front page example, is that something that people would like? Serious question, I've been here for years and I have to admit barely ever glancing at the front page. I always went straight to the forums

Since the front page has lingered unused for years, with only the occasional post once every few months, of course that's the attitude to be expected. I'm of the opinion that unused as it is, it gives a poor image of the site that is perpetuated elsewhere. That there's not a lot going on. Either do something with it or tie totalwar.org to redirect to forums.totalwar.org and be done with it.

And even if ignored, it doesn't change the fact there was significant lack of any attempts to spread the media given freely by Sega about Shogun 2. Like CA or not, the Org is a fansite and as I stated above I was getting new stuff on a near daily basis. Not only screenshots, but trailers, dev diaries and gameplay footage. There was a real opportunity to spread that media and by proxy, spread the image that this site actually gives a damn. But alas.

Originally Posted by :
For me that's easy. The main reason I joined and stayed at the Org would fall under the "community" answer, but there is one other thing. In addition to a healthy hotseat community that I could probably find elsewhere we have the TW Rpgs. I'd never seen anything like them when I joined KotR years ago and I'm not aware of similar games being done elsewhere. I know that might not be what you're looking for but it is something I find here at the Org and not anywhere else. A strong runner up after that would be that the EB team makes their home here, whose mod has provided the vast bulk of my single player tw playing for years.

Absolutely that's what I mean. Something to offer that you can't get elsewhere. Ie. A reason to stop lurking in guest mode and actually create an account. Things like that should be held up, touted from every corner and advertised heavily. People should know from a glance at the Org things they can do here, activities and games they can take part in. As it stands that simply isn't the case.

I know exactly what you are saying Monk. I used to come here a long while back before a heavy break. I have only signed up again to feel a sense of nostalgia. I can't quite put my finger on what is "different" it just feels so. I can however remember a lot more activity so something must have gone a little pear-shaped. I am talking about the RTW/ MTW2 forums which obviously have become older titles but compared to say TWC they are absolute graveyards. More so the likes of the Mead Hall and Frontroom are very quiet, I remember fine pieces of literature being produced by different people most weeks. The likes of Fall of Constantinople are still going strong thankfully. I do see that the authors are having to double post their works on TWC to gain views and feedback!

I think The Org was and still is in a very good position to offer something different to the whining and kindergarten of the official forums but in terms of activity and popularity they must be doing something The Org is not. I just don't know what that is!

Whining and kindergarten as you put it? What the ORG definitely lacks in comparison with TWC is interest in modding M2TW on the one hand and ETW/NTW and by extension TWS2 on the other. So if you want modding tools, tutorials, guidance and by extension mods that are not prefixed with “Europa Barbarorum” the TWC is where you go.

(Funny thing: recently the internal EB forums where the magic happens passed its 200K post mark, so I checked: EB 1 with both public and private forums included accounts for 94.5% of the RTW mods section on the ORG.)

Undoubtedly they have a great community Tellos and the modding foums are one aspect of that. You just don't get the same community feel, quality of posting etc. TWC seems to excell with members constantly trying to out do each other which thankfully doesn't happen here often.

If we could attract such an array of modding projects here than that would be great. You know how popular EB is! I would actually like you to broaden your stats to encompass even the 'vanilla' RTW posts, maybe even th older Medieval/ Shogun forums.

Other forums which work well are the writing forums. Lots of monthly competitions too which could be something to look into.

I posted this in a similar thread on this topic a while back (it can be seen a little further down the forum)

I think it speaks to Monk's points 2) and 3). It's a bit easier for those of us who are involved in games however as there's a definite reason for us to be here checking the forum and posting on a daily basis. Without the Throne Room I confess I would long have drifted away from the org as I'm not that interested in off-topic chat and my capacity to post on a particular game is limited.

By the way, and with regard to 1), Zim and I will be looking to provide a regular update on Throne Room games on the front page. Hopefully that will increase the level of interest in our forum as well as giving the general impression that stuff is happening at the Org.

Having said all that I've seen a revival of activity since TWS2 came out and many of the old names are back (for now) and posting in the Tea House and Multiplayer forums for that game. When I get my copy I'll be active there too.

There seems to have been a fair few threads like this lately... Of the them, I was most saddened to read Caravel's. Not because I agreed with every point he made, indeed one or two points I strongly disagreed with, it was more that some of his experiences with the staff mirrored many of my own and I'd rather hoped things had improved over years since I've been more or less inactive.

It was certainly my experience that, with some very notable exceptions, that getting many staff members to do anything to help with things outwith their immediate fiefdoms was very difficult. A prime example is the two (still pinned) EH threads I wrote on behalf of the staff 6 years ago now, both of which are now ridiculously out of date (I would guess that these are two of the threads Monk mentions in his opening post). I got essentially no help from most other forum leaders, and wrote most of the forum descriptions in the Synopsis myself as few responded to either the organisation thread or my PMs (all I asked was a sentence or two describing their forums :shrug:). This, along with the general lack of staff support for, or enthusiasm in, a number of other initiatives (both mine and those of others) was rather demoralising and very much led to my own resignation. I asked a number of staff members to take these threads over when I resigned, although no one would agree to do so. In that time, only Monk has done any updates to the forum synopsis. To be fair to him, he did so off his own bat as I'd long since given up on anyone doing anything with them. :bow:

I put an awful lot of effort into The Guild FAQ in particular and feel it's a real shame no one has taken it over (it's been 4 years since the last update, and frankly it was probably at least a year out of date then). It's been a long time since I've known enough about the various parts of the forum to reliably update the FAQ. :embarassed:

Anyway, with that aside, I'll say that 1) is the key: there's no question that people sign up for content and the Org needs to do far more to engender an atmosphere that members will believe that the staff will actively support initiatives. Concerning the CMS though, I very much agree that it needs to be more active, but it's still an enormous improvement over the old front page.

Not sure having active moderators is essential, although I agree it would help. Personally, given the level of posting here, I think the Org should probably have a half dozen or so Super Moderators with full mod powers over all forums, with a larger cadre of Forum Assistants who are there to help organise and participate in the forums, who come and go more frequently as their time motivation fluctuates, but who have no moderation responsibilities except post/thread organisation powers.

As for 4), I'd be very happy if someone would take over The Guild FAQ and/or the Synopsis...

The only reason I didn't continue to further expand on your threads is because, at the time, the Guides section for ETW was going up and I was planning a few starter faction guides. I was shifted in mod duty from the EH to the guides and lost rights to edit your threads, otherwise I would have done much more in my first go than just a quick touch up.

The org has certain aspects that by virtue of being a bastion for RTW/M2TW fans and modders TWC does not have. This is basically the mp association and sections, as well as the STW/MTW sections, that of course get less and less traffic. There are people in the org that know TW very very well, especially in battle gameplay terms, far better than any SPer/modder in twc ever will. Neither its absolutely necessary for the org to have the same levels of participation of the twc or the .com.

It also has interesting OT parts (monastery, arena, frontroom, gameroom, backroom), speaking of which judging by the backroom's infamy it can really benefit as well as benefit the site by being made visible to all.

All is needed for the org is for the forum at large to be more open and hence eventually more lively relative to the strengths of its membership and then to all other areas it can do so too.

I disagree with Monk's suggestions of frequent frontpage entries and up to date FAQs. If it was up to me, i would simply make FAQs as short and simple and general (1000-1500 words max) as they could possibly be, and also make the frontpage similarly simple and easy to manipulate, so they would need as less up to dating as possible as well as needing as less reading as possible. The emphasis should be in putting time to where the action is at and that is the forum proper.
I am also uncertain if creating content per duty from the staff is the answer, although initiatives will certainly help. I think that Caravel has a point and that if the forum gets more participation content will be naturally created.

I would also make the presentation structure of the forum relative to the (each time) current traffic/membership/needs/forum strengths, and steps in that direction have been done, as for example compressing the guides section that is a very welcoming move. If i'm not mistaken compressing the MTW and STW section was also tried and rejected, correctly as the MTW section still has traffic and teh org is unmatched in it.

I can't comment on internal staff structures as i don't know first hand how that works. As a general rule though, a certain distribution of responsibilities would/should make a team act more effectively and more flexibly raising the amount of things that can be done at any one time while decreasing teh time it takes to do them.

Two things i can see as an external observer are;

a) New moderators/ass.mods for TW subfora take too long to be promoted/demoted. It is unrealistic to wait too long to promote/demote people with the fluid membership participation of people on net forums and also hurts very much the said fora as they remain for large periods leaderless.
A prime example is teh Citadel. There is still traffic for M2, but the Citadel has been for ages now leaderless. Having people at all tmes (that is probably not constantly the same people) that can answer questions about the game and spun/provoke by reply some discussion in teh respective TW subfora is crucial to creating core communities in the subfora, that can then grow.

b) Moderation is in many cases somewhat too proactive. I appreciate the intent but it often kills posting flow and even hurts traffic. A bit of a heated debate (not flame wars etc) or accepting the immaturity of certain members (especially when clearly too young) to a certain degree is ok and even desirable. Being less controlling of threads and members would result in a more fluid lively debate and freeer and better post flow in threads. It would also paradoxically result in the members behaving naturally better as they will have less things to react to against the staff, while now they can have apparently lots.

The alternative is having a very "clean" forum, but that runs the danger of being clean to teh point of having much less traffic than it otherwise would have.

There are certain things that have been done recently and are very positive, as for example scrapping the junior membership. This is already paying off and we have many new members and not just for S2.

Another thing that is new and i really like is the personalised profile pictures.
However, relative to that, as it has been said by others some time ago, there are now 2 different systems in place - the old TW avatars that are visible from the outside and the profile pictures that are visible from within (logged in) only. This is somewhat confusing, and also if you choose to see profile pictures, you see for the most part the "default" profile picture because not all people have set such. It would be imo best to have only one system, and people can choose still from teh TW avatars in that or their custom profile pictures. Also the option of setting neither does not really work if i'm not mistaken. I tried to set it thus and i would still see the default ETW avatar on my posts. I don;t know how much work these changes would entail, but i am pretty certain that they would make the forum look better both when logged in and for guests as well as make new and existing members more "attached" to their profile which is a good thing for participation.

Originally Posted by Monk:
1.) Create content.

There are a number of cool content features here at the org, from the social groups to the front page and blogs. Most users have access to these features in some form or another, but it'd be very nice to see a steady stream of content from those who actually maintain the site. No. I don't mean dumping it all on Tosa either, or expecting him to conjure up things on his own. The org has an entire team of moderators. One of them has spare time I assure you.

Example: The CMS (front page) has been a weak spot here for years and almost never gets updates. When i left last year I was happy that it at least appeared someone was going forward in my stead with those updates. Sadly I can see that's not the case. Some real opportunities were missed here with the lead up to S2. I still have access to the Sega PR site and every single day exclusive trailers and screenshots were landing in my inbox. Sometimes weeks before they were hitting most major news sites. I never saw those mentioned here at the .Org either in a thread about S2 or on the front page. The reason I didn't bother to post them here is simple: I didn't care. :no:

I don't necessarily agree that you have to look at staff to create content.

What I do agree with is that staff should always be there to help people who are creating content, e.g. sticky threads, edit posts, organise different threads in one single thread or split a thread in two threads if there's a very interesting off topic discussion in one thread, advertise community events, etc etc.

I do fully agree that there should always be one person designated to keep the frontpage updated. You, my dearest Monk, we're doing one hell of a job there. Yes, I'm looking at you with begging puppy eyes in an attempt to convince you to join the staff again or at least ask Tosa to get the priviledges of updating that FP. I'll say it again: you did a wonderful job there and it was with much sadness that I saw you leaving.

Even if you don't want to pick up that thread again, I'd like to say I'm very happy you're back :bow:

Originally Posted by Monk:
2) Have moderators who actually post in their assigned sections.

I dunno. Seems pretty straight forward. A mod team interested in things other than the Tavern would be great. I know how it is, its easy to get stuck in the hum-drum of moderating. You clean up spam and deal with reported posts then you just browse and take off. Still. Would be nice to see the moderators acting like forum leaders instead of just invisible custodians. There's some on the green team who actually do what I'm asking, others not at all.

I agree. Mods should be active in their own subfora. Seems like a no-brainer to me. I'm going to do a mea culpa here. While I was very active as a moderator in the GR, I wasn't in the MP section. Not playing MP myself, shouldn't have been an excuse; I could have done more to promote activity in that subforum. I, myself, helped in chasing away the MP community. It think today it's clear to all that many of the MP players are a good, be it a bit rougher, bunch.

Therefore, I'd like to apologise to the community at large and to the MP community in specific for not doing the best I could as a moderator in the ETW MP subforum :bow:

Originally Posted by Monk:
3.) Give people a reason to register

Why should anyone join the Org at all? I'll wait while you think of something. No, you're not allowed to say "community".

The Gameroom and the Throne Room.

Yes yes, mafia games shouldn't be the "core business" of a TW fansite, but the quality of the .Org's mafia games and players is high and it should be more promoted. Idem dito for the Throne Room. Just look at all those complicated PBM's and other TW based RPG's that are being played and have been played over there. The hard work of the likes of Zim, TinCow, econ21, Overknight, Ibn-Khaldun, and many, many more, deserve a lot of recognition and that place should get more attention than it now gets. The Throne Room is something special.

Originally Posted by Monk:
4.) Update things. For god's sake.

There are things around the site, things like lists of moderators or rule threads, that are just old and outdated. One still lists barocca as an administrator. Having these things go untouched for so long is.. well. It gives off an atmosphere of apathy. Which is furthest from the truth, I know you greens and reds work hard. The entire site has that old feeling to it like it's not been updated in ages.

Many things have been updated, but there's still much work to do. You're saying yourself that things have been untouched for a long time, so it'll probably take a while before everything is updated.

Originally Posted by Monk:
Either way ball's in your court folks, let's see what you do with it.

As for other suggestions to improve the site...

Maybe the membership could help staff updating outdated info? Whenever one of us notices something that's hopelessly outdated, we could report it to a few of our staff members by pm'ing them and telling them what needs to be changed?

There's a lot we, the membership, can do for this site using the tools we have at our disposal: the capacity of opening threads, posting and sending PM's. It's ok to suggest things and to say what staff should do, but creating content and generating activity ourselves, wouldn't hurt either. This goes far easier if you simply enjoy the place or if you're having fun in one of the subfora; if a member enjoys the place and has fun, posting will come automatically. Many of you who are so concerned about the .Org should try it: simply seeking a subforum you like, post and have fun.

Some people here are very negative; I personally think that negativity is part of the problem too and may eventually lead to a self-fullfilling prophecy. Maybe the people posting in these threads with an outspoken negative attitude should take a hard look at themselves in the mirror, to make sure their own negativity isn't part of the problem as well.

:bow:

Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios:
Whining and kindergarten as you put it? What the ORG definitely lacks in comparison with TWC is interest in modding M2TW on the one hand and ETW/NTW and by extension TWS2 on the other. So if you want modding tools, tutorials, guidance and by extension mods that are not prefixed with “Europa Barbarorum” the TWC is where you go.

(Funny thing: recently the internal EB forums where the magic happens passed its 200K post mark, so I checked: EB 1 with both public and private forums included accounts for 94.5% of the RTW mods section on the ORG.)

He was referring to the "official forums" - I take that as meaning the .commie

You have to remember that modding is a "by-product" of main TW releases. Without the strong community already in existence, modding forums will suffer as well, as most people don't come here just for mods - indeed, as I'm sure we're all aware, it's through forums like the .org and TWC that people discover the mods. EB is clearly the exception... and the .org cannot consider itself successful in attracting and supporting modders based on looking at the EB forum alone. It's one of the most popular mods, is mainly based here and has a large community here and has been here a long time. There are plenty of other mods that uprooted and left for the TWC. For modders, exposure for their work is very important, so they relocate to the forum with the most traffic.

Originally Posted by :
Originally posted by Andres
Some people here are very negative; I personally think that negativity is part of the problem too and may eventually lead to a self-fullfilling prophecy. Maybe the people posting in these threads with an outspoken negative attitude should take a hard look at themselves in the mirror, to make sure their own negativity isn't part of the problem as well.

Well, since nearly all people in this thread are long standing members and even ex-staff with considerable contributions to the org over the years, i'm really having a bit of a hard time as to whom you may mean.

Could you be a bit more specific?

Originally Posted by gollum:
Well, since nearly all people in this thread are long standing members and even ex-staff with considerable contributions to the org over the years, i'm really having a bit of a hard time as to whom you may mean.

Could you be a bit more specific?

It's up to you if want to interprete that as a cheap shot aimed at somebody/some people in specific, as a "generally speaking" or as advice given with the best intentions :shrug:

I intended it to be the latter.

Before it came to me interpreting it, it was up to you to writing it though.

"Generally speaking" points don't need to be addressed to members in specific and advice with "the best intentions" is hardly ever anonymous. Which probably means you avoid the question altogether :)

Ok, i see - thanks.

It would be nice if this debate could stick to the topic, rather than heading off on a tangent. It's obvious as to whom the comment was directed, but to be honest my give-a-crap'ometer is registering near 0. So let's just leave it at that.

Random thoughts:

I believe the lack of Org modding interest in the recent versions of the TW games has hurt the forum overall. There is a proactive mindset to modding, digging into files, discovering mechanics, and in the end, modding is creation of content. Many modders get an intricate understanding of how the engine works, this knowledge increases the value of their contributions in the non-mod game sections. Searchers not askers, so to speak.

On staff posting in their forums, I'm somewhat guilty here. I do post in the Main Hall and try to respond when questions come up, but I have not been very proactive about trying to get conversation flowing. I'm at a loss how to do it really, MTW is a great game but just about everything has been said in the previous years.

Browsing the Tea House, member impressions on Shogun 2 seem pretty good. Can we use this interest to get some good content going? Guides, modding, whatever. To me, this seems like the best way to get things going again. I came to the Org because of the guides, I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Also, Org wiki. Any member can contribute, you don't have to plan out a novel, just help out where you can. A lot of work has been done in the past month getting the base pages in place for Med 2 and Shogun 2 and organizing the existing content, but there are still plenty of holes. Hints on how to use certain units, advantages/disadvantages on the economics of building X, full actuarial tables on farm income and assassin chances, etc. The wiki can also be a good place to put important stuff that shouldn't be lost as the threads cycle down the fora, like tech support info. And the best part, you won't have to look at a creepy picture of Jimmy Wales...

Originally Posted by drone:
Random thoughts:

I believe the lack of Org modding interest in the recent versions of the TW games has hurt the forum overall. There is a proactive mindset to modding, digging into files, discovering mechanics, and in the end, modding is creation of content. Many modders get an intricate understanding of how the engine works, this knowledge increases the value of their contributions in the non-mod game sections. Searchers not askers, so to speak.

Very true indeed.

Originally Posted by drone:
On staff posting in their forums, I'm somewhat guilty here. I do post in the Main Hall and try to respond when questions come up, but I have not been very proactive about trying to get conversation flowing. I'm at a loss how to do it really, MTW is a great game but just about everything has been said in the previous years.

I don't think you can make a difference just through being excessively "proactive" - it's up to members as a whole (mods and members alike) to keep the forum going. Specific action by just the staff won't help. Speaking from experience, the Main Hall needs very little moderation - just sit back and let those old men get on with it and you will be amazed at the results. If a thread turns into a 5 page history discussion, leave it. What's the worst that could happen? If another thread turns to modding - let them get on with it -moving the thread to the backwater modding sections will kill it. With as little staff intervention as possible I think it will start to recover in time. Staff in general can do much more good by posting about the subject they know about, instead of "moderating" that which doesn't need it.

There are several of us old main hall dwellers still around like a bad cold - our numbers our now few, but once rallied from under the bedsheets we will answer the call and help out by posting utter nonsense about camels in the threads in that forum.

:bow:

Yes, what Caravel says is true for teh MainHall as well as for other TW subfora. Basically there are waves of fans coming in them. Most of them as they come in know little about the game, and their questions liven up discussion as they drag in the more seniors that know but find little reason to post anymore what they know.

If there is someone(s) answering at the right time, other new and old members that lurk join the discussion and a small community again forms. Over time outsiders read their discussions, AARs etc and they aso get into it, because once you see/read about the game you want to play too - its contagious.

The critical bit is to have a member that can start answering in the first place at all times if possible. Hence why i said that its important to quickly promote demote ass.mods and mods in order to have active leaders present in subfora at all times. Its not that proactively they can create content but that they help reverberate and eventually snowball discussion by attracting new members due to their being able to answer about teh game.

Originally Posted by :
You have to remember that modding is a "by-product" of main TW releases. Without the strong community already in existence, modding forums will suffer as well, as most people don't come here just for mods - indeed, as I'm sure we're all aware, it's through forums like the .org and TWC that people discover the mods.

Absolutely. M2TW came, the modders definitely had some fun (some of the fundamental tools/tutorials for M2TW modding are in fact ORG tutorials) and then those modders went; the ORG M2TW section practically died. I don't see any interest in modding ETW/NTW (which certainly is the case on TWC) and given how very similar modding TWS2 and NTW apparently are you will need to visit the TWC for your TWS2 modding help/tools too.

But there's the thing: people find the mods through forums yet they sign up for discussing the mods if they think the effort worthwhile. People lurk the forums using it purely as a go-to source for help (troubleshooting) and goodies before they sign up to be part of the whole thing. This is something that is very real: back in the frenzy of EB 1 activity people would post threads containing little more than “Great mod, I signed up for the forums just to say this” and more veteran members would nod and say “Me, I came for $mod then I found EB 1, if it weren't for the mods I'd not be playing this game anymore.”.

And the same probably applies to other mods as well (in fact, I signed up because of XGM which was before I knew of EB). Which is why a decrepit modding forum doesn't do the ORG any favours. People wanting to mod the games go to TWC so that is where the mods go as you noted and hence that is where the players of those mods go, too.

Originally Posted by :
EB is clearly the exception... and the .org cannot consider itself successful in attracting and supporting modders based on looking at the EB forum alone. It's one of the most popular mods, is mainly based here and has a large community here and has been here a long time. There are plenty of other mods that uprooted and left for the TWC. For modders, exposure for their work is very important, so they relocate to the forum with the most traffic.

Obviously. But I guess it comes down to what Andres says: it's not really viable for staff to suddenly discover their alter-ego as modding gods and singlehandedly redefine the ORG as we know it. It's got to come from the forumgoers themselves. :shrug:

Well, does the Org need more visitors? I think thats the main issues of this tread.

If you want to reach this, than push it on google, as most people google Totalwar and see TWC in a better spot than the org.
I personal dont mind, how many people are here, especially as more doesnt mean better.

There are many sections here at the org, some im looking into, other not. Right now i read and write in the S2 sections, mostly in the MP part and a little bit in the Tea House.
What I would like to see, and thats what Im trying, is more valuable content. There are many treads with very little information concerning the game.
You would expect to read more about online gameplay, units, problems, what to do in the MP section.

Im not sure, but I got the impression that there are very little MPlayer actual taking real part in this treads. We got a lot of old vets, who dont play at all online and we have also some good amount who play online, but never post here anything. Thats the current situation as far i can see.

Now, my intention isnt to come here and get me something i didnt know before, its mostly the other way around and me posting new things.
Im here because I like to see old people from the start of TW, some I play with online, with other i just speak here and there.


My suggestion to make the Org a little bit better are simple.

- host tourneys
- get one big and easy to enter page online, where you can see tons of youtube videos.
- im not a programer, but i saw other CMS systems, where they had one big page, where endless videos was implemented.
Right now i upload (i got some terrible slow connection) battles on my own youtube channel. Im sure many would like to see other people playing.
The mob runs with the best, its always like this. Right now Magy and me rules the 2v2 ladder, so people surely want to see how we get it done.
There are also other real good player/teams, we could get those people to upload their videos/replays.

People who lose online vs a rush (just an example) get to the com instantly and start crying about its being too strong (actual rushs are in favor of the engine).
They want a solution, they ask CA to nerf it, while we could give them a solution to outplay the rusher.
You can see one example in my MP-guide, im adding a video once i get a rusher on my feeds. ;)

The question for content is correct till a certain degree.
The normal hosting is working very stable, where is the first ORG-tourney? Who is in charge of it?
I did organize tourneys with hundreds of people involved, Im fully aware of the amount of work. I made a post about what we need here, to get a tourney done quick, without too much online-chat communication (with the problem, that the chat/foyer is divided by countries).

If you need help or advice, make a tread and let people help you or at least spread some information what your planning.

See, just 2 suggestion from me, a good video-section and some tourneys. Not too much to ask for!

With the org's tradition with the mp community hosting tournaments here as Kocmoc suggest's would be a very good idea.

Originally Posted by Andres:
The Throne Room is something special.

Indeed it is and thanks for the free publicity!

Just to add a shameless plug we are always in need of new players should anyone feel like dusting off their M2TW (or RTW) disk and playing campaigns against (or with) other humans. In fact there's a new hotseat game in the works right now...

Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey:
Indeed it is and thanks for the free publicity!

Just to add a shameless plug we are always in need of new players should anyone feel like dusting off their M2TW (or RTW) disk and playing campaigns against (or with) other humans. In fact there's a new hotseat game in the works right now...

Advertise! It works, really.

I'd recommend putting ads in the GR; lots of mafia games are complicated and have roles and factions. I'm sure plenty of mafia players would love to try out a TW based RPG.

And why don't you advertise in the Tea Room as well? It's probably too early to start a S2 PBM or hotseat game, but some might try out one using M2TW or could take a look, read and then create a S2 PBM themselves!

Advertise! It works. And you're only doing it good when people start complaining about seeing advertisements everywhere and start to call it "spam" :laugh4:

Originally Posted by Andres:
Advertise! It works, really.

I'd recommend putting ads in the GR; lots of mafia games are complicated and have roles and factions. I'm sure plenty of mafia players would love to try out a TW based RPG.

And why don't you advertise in the Tea Room as well? It's probably too early to start a S2 PBM or hotseat game, but some might try out one using M2TW or could take a look, read and then create a S2 PBM themselves!

Advertise! It works. And you're only doing it good when people start complaining about seeing advertisements everywhere and start to call it "spam" :laugh4:

You are quite right - In fact my previous post was a tacit advert in itself...plus I advertise in my sig and try to post around the org a bit.

We have a sticky in the Citadel but maybe we should have one in the Tea House too, good idea!

well, I dont know what the org/mods are planning behind the scene, but I started to work on the first S2 tourney by now.
I PMed Tosa this morning and asked, if the org can help with some stuff i need. Today it can be organized much better as in the old days.

Here you can see how much work it was 7-8 years ago www.kocmoc.de , we had to deal with tons of txt-files and endless chatrooms to get something working.
Today I will use a tool i thought of many years already. If the org will support, we gladly can call it the first ORG-tournament.

Anyway, words are words and work is work. Lets get something done!

Another positive step would be stop locking threads in the frontroom on the pretext that there may be trouble or on the basis that they're somehow worthless in the eyes of the powers that be.

Ok so someone posted a stupid immature thread? The thread has been locked to prevent it "turning sour"... what will this achieve? Not a lot.

As staff, I don't think the maturity of members is any of your concern. TW games are played by kids - they're "games", so you need to get over it. If the "kids" have a fall out and start slinging mud, then that's the moderators turn to jump in - not before. It's damnably easy to moderate if you're just going to close every thread "just in case". Following such a policy, moderating can only get easier, in the long term anyway...

In the thread in question, members were being civil and no trouble had started. Closing was completely unnecessary...

If discussing anything except fluffy animals is now off limits then the frontroom obviously needs new posting guidelines...

The problem with seeing locked threads and a lot of moderator activity in every thread, is that it puts people off from posting at all.

Sorry, but you just come across as a bunch of overzealous, nannying, jobsworth, kill joys... I know this is not your intention, but perceptions count - especially to new members and lurkers that are thinking about signing up. There is no need for that level of moderation in an offtopic section.

:2cents:

And you come across as a bitter, petulant, cynical, and extraordinarily hypocritical former staffer who quit in a huff and now enjoys slinging mud at your former team mates every chance you get. I disagree 100%. Frankly, your skewed opinion no longer carries weight (with me). It may put you and others like you off, but plenty of others see it otherwise. And frankly, we are not obliged to explain it to you or to try and convince you. You're certainly not going to convince me on these points. If you don't like it, you don't have to put up with it. Hang elsewhere. Personally, I would be grateful if you did. But I have no illusions; you're having too much fun being disruptive and hypercritical.

...

Getting it all off your chest eh?

Originally Posted by Caravel:
Sorry, but you just come across as a bunch of overzealous, nannying, jobsworth, kill joys...

Originally Posted by Caravel:
Getting it all off your chest eh?

Aren't we all? ~:pat:

Big difference between my post and his though... however you try to spin it... mine was not laced with anger, bitterness, resentment and downright hatred... if I hated you chaps, or if I was only here to shit on you, I would not be wasting my time here... it's a pity some people only see in black and white and have adopted the fortress mentality...

But you know what - forget it... I'm finally done with the .org. When a staff member posts something like that, you know your time is up and that the .org is beyond hope.

No hard feelings on my part Togakure-san.

I'll leave the rest of you to it.

:bow:

Originally Posted by Togakure:
And you come across as a bitter, petulant, cynical, and extraordinarily hypocritical former staffer who quit in a huff and now enjoys slinging mud at your former team mates every chance you get. I disagree 100%. Frankly, your skewed opinion no longer carries weight (with me). It may put you and others like you off, but plenty of others see it otherwise. And frankly, we are not obliged to explain it to you or to try and convince you. You're certainly not going to convince me on these points. If you don't like it, you don't have to put up with it. Hang elsewhere. Personally, I would be grateful if you did. But I have no illusions; you're having too much fun being disruptive and hypercritical.

I've done my best to stay out of the public Moderator arguments since I resigned several months ago, but I feel obliged to comment on this post. Whether Caravel's posts are out of line or not, your response is incredibly inappropriate. Moderators are supposed to treat all members fairly and with respect and to present a united public front about Org policy. It's no secret that opinion in the Keep is divided; always has been, always will be. But when you are posting as a Moderator on the public, visible forums, you have a responsibility to put your prejudices aside and do your job as an impartial observer. If you disagree with something a member posts, particularly regarding Org policy in a place like the Watchtower, you need to engage in civil, constructive conversation.

If you want to start muck-slinging at specific people, turn in your robes. When you're blue, you can rant all you want about whoever you want, so long as you don't break the rules. While you're green, you need to live up to a higher standard. You have failed to do that here.

[edit]Based on the 'Guest' under Caravel's name, I'm assuming he's been banned. If that ban was for the things posted here in the Watchtower, I strongly urge the Moderator(s) who did it to re-examine the basis for the ban. Questioning Org policy was not against the rules last I checked.

Originally Posted by :
Originally posted by TinCow
I've done my best to stay out of the public Moderator arguments since I resigned several months ago, but I feel obliged to comment on this post. Whether Caravel's posts are out of line or not, your response is incredibly inappropriate. Moderators are supposed to treat all members fairly and with respect and to present a united public front about Org policy. It's no secret that opinion in the Keep is divided; always has been, always will be. But when you are posting as a Moderator on the public, visible forums, you have a responsibility to put your prejudices aside and do your job as an impartial observer. If you disagree with something a member posts, particularly regarding Org policy in a place like the Watchtower, you need to engage in civil, constructive conversation.

If you want to start muck-slinging at specific people, turn in your robes. When you're blue, you can rant all you want about whoever you want, so long as you don't break the rules. While you're green, you need to live up to a higher standard. You have failed to do that here.

There was indeed no need for so much charged a reply. The same things could have been said without all the negative sentiments.

Originally Posted by :
Based on the 'Guest' under Caravel's name, I'm assuming he's been banned. If that ban was for the things posted here in the Watchtower, I strongly urge the Moderator(s) who did it to re-examine the basis for the ban. Questioning Org policy was not against the rules last I checked.

I could be wrong, but i doubt that he has been banned from the staff. He most probably asked for his account to be disabled.

Caravel was beyond questioning though. Questioning is effectively asking for an internal examination within the psyche in order to correct errors. Caravel is simply causing trouble because he has a 10ft chip in his shoulder and he wants to rub everyone the wrong way for kicks. I am not even a moderator or even an ex-moderator, or even know what goes on behind the walls of the fabled keep, but it is as clear as day to me as a member of this forum what is going on, and it is a very sad sight to see an ex-moderator ruin their own reputation in such a way.

As a member, I can probably see why Togakure would probably want to say his statements, and being honest, they are not undeserved. Sure, you could argue about higher standards, but some people are getting their paint brushes out to paint the kettle black. Being honest, I could also see Togakure apologising for being so charged with his statements anyway, so no need for an inquisition just yet.

If you want my honest opinion, purge this thread and the others with holy fire. All it is doing is causing more bad blood between people who on the normal day would be drinking in a pub with a nice cold Belgium beer, enjoying each others company.

Originally Posted by :
so no need for an inquisition just yet

You mean no need for a certain kind of inquisition, because you surely seem very enthusiastic of others:

Originally Posted by :
purge this thread and the others with holy fire

Having biases is unavoidable for some people, but if you can't admit them, at least it pays better off if you make an effort to conceal them.

Originally Posted by gollum:
Having biases is unavoidable for some people, but if you can't admit them, at least it pays better off if you make an effort to conceal them.

Indeed. Lets say for example there was bad blood between me and you. What are the choices? Sure we could cry and whinge at eachother all over the place, but it is far more mature just to bury it in the sand and simply have a stiff upper lip. If I deliberately kept going around obviously provoking you, I think you would agree that I was being a [naughty word here] and it is pretty much what applies here. Might as well just bury it all, put it in the trash and move on with our lives. Nothing good would ever come out of it.

Originally Posted by TinCow:
[edit]Based on the 'Guest' under Caravel's name, I'm assuming he's been banned. If that ban was for the things posted here in the Watchtower, I strongly urge the Moderator(s) who did it to re-examine the basis for the ban. Questioning Org policy was not against the rules last I checked.

He expressed a desire to get away from the org to me in a recent PM, was thinking about asking to have his account deleted. In all probability that is what happened.

Moderators are human too, TinCow; we are not perfect, and I am probably the farthest from perfect of anyone here. Indeed, you are correct in chastising me, but: show me a "man" "who hath not sinned." I knew what I was doing, and am prepared to pay the price. There come times when you have to stand up for yourself and those who stand with you, and sometimes, you have to do it in a manner that will not be popular. I don't have a problem with this.

I've been biting my tongue in regard to the above for some time now, and felt the time had come to state--publicly and directly in response to yet another public criticism from him--how I felt about the matter. Caravel and others occupy a gray area, formerly staff, currently not (by their own choice), and this complicates matters in my view: particularly when their criticisms start leaning towards the personal in tone as his did towards the end there. I don't think I would have chosen to act in this way if it hadn't been a former staffer. As I see it, consistently behaving this way after being staff for so long--well, let's just say that I find it especially "inappropriate" as you put it.

Questioning Org policy is not against the rules; neither is defending it. The real issue is how one questions or defends, neh? I think I've made that abundantly clear ....

FYI: I tendered my resignation to TosaInu privately last Thursday. In his magic way, without trying to convince me to continue, he convinced me to continue. But you are right, TinCow. I have been privately encouraged to apologize. This, out of conscience and the strength of my convictions on the matter, I will not do. But because of this choice, I cannot in good faith continue to serve in the capacity of moderator.

Originally Posted by Togakure:
I've been biting my tongue in regard to the above for some time now, and felt the time had come to state--publicly and directly in response to yet another public criticism from him--how I felt about the matter. Caravel and others occupy a gray area, formerly staff, currently not (by their own choice), and this complicates matters in my view: particularly when their criticisms start leaning towards the personal in tone as his did towards the end there. I don't think I would have chosen to act in this way if it hadn't been a former staffer. As I see it, consistently behaving this way after being staff for so long--well, let's just say that I find it especially "inappropriate" as you put it.


Questioning Org policy is not against the rules; neither is defending it. The real issue is how one questions or defends, neh? I think I've made that abundantly clear ....

This is a legitimate point and one that I have thought about before. Former moderators will never truly be 'normal' members again. I agree with you that some aspects of being a Moderator stay with you after you depart, and I do think a former-Moderator member has a higher standard to live up to than a normal member. As far as that is concerned, I am not defending Caravel at all.

Originally Posted by Togakure:
There come times when you have to stand up for yourself and those who stand with you, and sometimes, you have to do it in a manner that will not be popular. I don't have a problem with this.

I respect such a stance, but the same exact lines I just quoted here could be changed to insert Caravel's name instead of yours, and they would fit precisely.

When you are green, you have a specific place where you can rant and rave to your heart's content without worrying about how it will look in public. When you resign, you no longer have access to that place. Yet you retain the knowledge of how the Org works and you retain the passion that got you to be green in the first place. So, you have two choices: (1) Keep your mouth shut regardless of how you feel or (2) make your points in the Watchtower. Some of us choose (1) and some of us choose (2), but both choices in themselves come from the passion and love for this place that made us candidates for the green in the first place. Either we keep quiet out of respect, or we speak up because we care what happens. There are certainly appropriate and inappropriate ways to do both, but the basic motivator remains the same.

Originally Posted by Togakure:
FYI: I tendered my resignation to TosaInu privately last Thursday. In his magic way, without trying to convince me to continue, he convinced me to continue. But you are right, TinCow. I have been privately encouraged to apologize. This, out of conscience and the strength of my convictions on the matter, I will not do. But because of this choice, I cannot in good faith continue to serve in the capacity of moderator.

I offer my commiserations on having to make that kind of decision, I know it can be agonizing. Take my word for it, it gets a lot easier after you've been away for a few months. It was the best decision I've ever made at the Org, hopefully it will be for you too.

Originally Posted by :
originally posted by Togakure
This, out of conscience and the strength of my convictions on the matter, I will not do.

Apologies are not offered because one agrees with a rival in the end. They are offered because one realises that he has crossed a line that he shouldn't have crossed, and by doing that he has been inconsiderate to a fellow human being not all that different from him at the bottom.

You might have said that "the real issue at stake for an apology, is one of how" - of manner rather than of content. It sounds like your strength of conviction is using your conscience rather then the two going hand in hand.

As an old Orgah nearing his six years spent on these wonderful forums, I find it incredibly disheartening to see such posts. :no:

I completely disapprove of what happened here, but that won't do any good, since Caravel is now goodbye and Togakure is now thinking to resign from the Org. It's disappointing because we've always been a tight knit community and now everything just collapses with more or less a handful of people left from the good ol' times.

So much bad vibe involving good people. Sad. Anyone for a "do-over" today? :shame:

Edit: edyz beat me to the punch. :bow:

Every Moderator's emotions has been raw today... We all woke up to sad news. I think you will all understand.

Ja mata Tosa.

Do you mean that Tosa has stepped down from admin?

Originally Posted by gollum:
Do you mean that Tosa has stepped down from admin?

Worse, check out the stickies here in the Watchtower...

Thanks Husar...

All this aruging isn't going to help this forum, I hope the Admin staff and members realize this.

Now we have a tragic new problem on our hands now.

I said it many times the last 11 years now, boards like this needs the game and the people involved. If less and less people who really play the game (MP or SP), take part of the discussions here, the board will suffer.

Right now, I miss content and input, i miss people who are good player and coming along to share their ideas. I see a few active, but i miss a lot.
I cant check, how many play it solo, but i see how many play it online. We simply have lost the contact to the MP-base.
Almost no new player or new clan is active here. I have no idea, how many mods are playing online, its hard with all these names....

But i can ensure you, that only some old player, who now play again, are active at the org. The majority of the online-player isnt here.
There are many new clans out, they are not here, I see tons of new player, they never heard about this place.

As I wrote in my first post, what is the goal of this place? Do we want to see the org used by many people?
If yes, than we have to create content, which is worth to move here.
I like the org, its a good place, here are many nice people, some i know from the early days...
Still, I have the impression, that this place isnt up to date, we didnt move with the time and we didnt move with the people.

Its like a second market somewhere, where we dont take part in the action.

I look at the com, there are tons of new people (logical), they get there, ask their questions, get help, share their opinions. These people i miss here.
Maybe a handful are here, but thats nothing compared to what is going on out there.

How much real content we got done here? Where are the tourneys?
Where is the org-clan ruling the clancampaign?
The mods in these sections, does they help or just moving treads and make some sticky?

Im not sure, how the job of a good moderator is defined, maybe thats the way a mod has to act.

KocMoc's focus is correct. It would honor Tosa to focus on continuing to make his legacy here the great place that it has been for all of us for so many years. Emulating him, honors him.

Sincerely, I apologize to the Org for my outburst in this thread. I expressed my feelings, but in a manner that was neither kind, nor constructive. Tosa would have been disappointed, and those of you who have expressed concern are right to do so. Know that I have apologized to Caravel also, and that too was sincere.

Let's focus on making the Org even better, and remember to express ourselves in a manner becoming gentle-persons. We all have the finest example of how to do that.

There was no need for you to step down Togakure-san - the fault was mine. I ask only that you resume your role as soon as possible. There is no shame in going back so please reconsider.

:bow:

No fault, my friend. It was what it was. As I mentioned, Tosa and I had discussed my stepping down for several days just prior to his passing. I will share his last PM to me, as I don't think he would mind:

Originally Posted by TosaInu:
Staying low for a while may be a good thing and please don't feel a misfit. You aren't. Take care of yourself and give everything a part in your life that needs to be part (according to you). Shall I release you from duties while still having you moderator? No worries about anything. The forums will do fine, the wiki wil do fine.

I need to take care of myself better. This will require release from formal responsibilities here, as more of my attention is required elsewhere.

"... No worries about anything. The forums will do fine ...."

:bow: