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Hey EB vets :-)
Since I 'm finishing my Casse campaing and not intend to carry it on, I was thinking of a "phalanx campaign".I've read so much inside the forum about pikemen and I am intrigued to lead some phalanx armies.
My heart speaks of Macedonia but I expect an easy game with them.What do you prefer and suggest?
Could it be Seleuceia, Ptolemaioi, Epeiros, Pontos, Baktria maybe, or who else?
Please give me reasoning and motives :-P
if you´re like me you will have a hard time leading a phallanx army so my sugestion is that you pick someone who can use thorokitai that leaves macedonia out
you can always go for the reforms in the koinon hellenon and use their elite phallangitai they´ve got great archers skirmishers and decent cavalry + all the hoplitai you´ll ever need
ptolomaioi is a good choice few enemies easy riches in the south (mines) plus alot of sea trade aslong as you can get antiocheia and criple the arche seulekeia you have many places to go
makedonia is in a great position if you play the 1st 2 turns right you can imediatly take athens and sparta by using your heavy cavarly right and then move up north and remove the epirotes from the balkans thanks to the thesally hoplites you can build a nice army to replenish your losses and always keep moving taking over the balkans and their mines and basically using your forts to guard the river passages (i was able to take over all important mining centers by 267bs and by 254bs i had enough to suport 3 armies and go and take nikaia and pergamom wich makes you go to war with the seulekids if not you can just wait for the romans to take patavium and start attacking segestica )
arche seulekeia is for me the most fun campaign they have more troop selection then the getai rich lands that you can explore right if you play your cards right and you must always be pro active trying to remove the ptoleis from mikra asia 1st then try to eliminate the pontus as fast as possible and then go for the hayasdan while trying to survive in hekatompylos and marakanda against the parthians (i always use the massive spam of pantadapoi and slingers to try and survive the early stages while keeping the population under control and avoid revolts) one of the most important things you can do when dealing with the arche is to make sure you always attack 1st particulary the phalavas as not to loose too many aliances at the start and always present those who might threaten you with a strong army on their borders should they decide to "visit" your lands
economicaly you must try and secure the northern eastern mediterranean by removing ptoes from mikra asia dveloping your eastern mining sectors take nikaia and pergamom for your mikra asia mines and if you can remove the hai you´ll get fortunes from the caucasian mountains with a few forts on all major passages you can armour your western and caucasian border leaving your armies (recruited in antioch and mesoptamia) to deal with the ptoly and your eastern armies to nullify the parthian threat
eventually the baktrians will backstab you when that happens have no contemplation just eliminate them with arche seulekeia is a do or die campaign you´ll always be surrounded everyone will betray you it´s hard financially at the start (altough you can get some nice sums of cash at the start by taking peace from the kh ) and you might likely end up fighting wars against the saka phallava baktrians pontians kh makedonia hay and the always hated ptolomaioi all at once
The Seleucids are definitely a good choice; they were my first EB campaign. It's challenging with so many different enemies but on the other hand your lands are rich and you have a great variety of units: I'd advise you to build a small stack of elites in Antioch and use this to take Egypt while sending a second force to seize Tarsus and Side. If you act quickly you will find that the Ptolies are quite weak and unprepared. Once you have Alexandria, Memphis and Thebes they won't be a threat anymore and you can send withdraw your main army. Taking the rebel cities in Asia Minor should be your next step, after which you should target Pontos who usually expand slowly. In the east use Alexandria Ariana as your main base and give up erveything else until you can reconquer them. After this you should be able to beat the Parthians and Baktrians and perhaps even take India.
It depends on what you want, if you wanna have won by the year 260, go for the seleucids and do as the others have suggested.
However, I really gotta suggest either Epeiros or Macedonia. I really prefer their spots on the map more, than the seleucids. With Epeiros or Macedonia you get to fight other Phalanx nations to a greater degree, while you still get to fight various other infantry nations, (Getai, Romans, Carthage, Koinon Hellenon, and perhaps even some gauls). I find Epeiros unit selection to be more fun, than the macedonians though :)
I agree with A Dane here, Seleukids make a good starting challenge and have one of the best and widest troop selection but once you get your money sorted and defeated Hay or Pontos your quite invincible, plus you can autocalc against the Parni and Saka, tho it get's really tough when actually fighing on the battle map^^ - Pikmen kill HAs in autocalc but don't quite stand a large chance in battle mode.
Macedonians and Epirotes make a good game while Epirotes have the more unique roster and afaik are a bit more challengeing. still If I remember correctly you've played the KH already, nor?
in that case and if you feel EBized already Bakrtia would be a good choice, very varied roster the only thing they lack are elite pikemen. but it's more of a challenge imho.
Pontos can also use a lot of pikemen, they lack the pezhetairoi but thier elite pikeman is about as strong^^
I'd suggest either Bartix, or Makedonia. Makedonia ISN'T a walk in the park, although it's probably easier than holding together the Arche, it's probably a bit harder than the Ptolemies, or Epeiros. You start out in a really tight spot as Makedonia, and have to fight two pretty hard battles to keep your empire from crumbling. To your West, Pyrrhos and his large army including indian elephants (!!!) threatens your capital city of Pella, and to the South, the Koinon Hellenon is trying to push you out of Korinthos and Chalkis. You'll need to take out Pyrrhus first thing, and then book it to Korinthos and kick the Koinon out of Athens and Sparte while the Epeirotes are fighting in Italia and licking their wounds in Ambrakia.
Baktria has a difficult start too, but perhaps not quite as bad. If you can keep the Arche from attacking you in the first 5 years, you're probably fine, but if they attack you immediately, you're in for a rough time until you can take the cities along the Indus and the Gedrosian desert. Saka is always a constant annoyance, and can occasionally actually become a real threat to your capital at Baktra, and while the Pahlavans usually stay allied to you until you attack them, they can sometimes backstab you if your capital is left too lightly defended. Additionally, if you leave Pahlava alone and they manage to expand at the expense of the Arche, they can become a real pain to dislodge once you're ready to. I'd recommend taking India and Gedrosia, and then blitzing the Pahlavans so you never have to face cataphract horse archers and heavy cataphract charge cavalry. You have your own cataphract horse, but they're not quite up to snuff with the pahlavans and they're expensive enough that you probably want them soaking up Saka arrows or destroying Seleukid armies instead of being wasted on the (comparatively) minor threat of the Pahlavans.
Klerouchoi Make a pretty good medium pike unit for Pontos, and they're probably the most difficult "pike" faction, if they count.
I've always had a soft spot for Ptolomaioi due to an interest in their history, but they have a rather easier start and not quite as much variety in units as the Seleucids.
Macedonians, Epeiros, and KH (who get pikes late in the game) all have an interesting start, especially if you start off slowly for more of a challenge, but all become somewhat easier as you finish off Greece (migrating KH to Sicily can make for mroe of a challenge) and all have interesting units.
Opinions differ :-P
Well I was thinking of "phalanx spam" armies, you know those 15+ pikemen units stacks, that can be layed across whole battle map (unit size:huge), leaving you no space to manoevre, lol.
Still each nation has its own variations of support units, Macedonia good cavalry, Epirotes good light infantry, etc to take advantage of.
In terms of challenge all sound tempting, except maybe the isolated kingdom of Ptolemaioi who should have lesser and smaller fight fronts.
Concerning the battle area I like Europe better, only thing that bugs me is the high amount of dense forests that gives a LOW visibility in battles.
*KH campaing is finished yes.But I don't think they are a "pikemen nation" because they fight mostly with spearmen. :-P
I was thinking of a nation that has levy pikemen units so I can "phalanx hack" since round 1.Are all those you mentioned such (say Baktria)?
I also liked the "phalanx vs phalanx" potential scenario, still if it involves Minor Asia it might take ages for the game to progress, hehe.
Maybe "phalanx vs Romani" would be interesting (either Macedonia or Epiros) too.
Thanks for commenting, please go on help your fellow EB addict :-)
Just about all of those factions (KH being the prime exception) can recruit phalangites of some sort from day one. Even Pontos gets Pantodapoi Phalangitai, although I'm not sure if their starting settlement can already build them or not.
Macedonia and Epiros have levy pikemen, Ptolemaioi have Machimoi Phalangitai and Seleucids, Baktria, and Pontos have Pantodapoi Phalangitai.
Even Saba can recruit the latter as regionals...
If your main interest is Europe I would think Epiros or Macedonia would be the best bet, maybe Pontos. Ptolemy and Baktria are far off, although in different directions, and a Seleucid campaign is likely to be rather Asia/Egypt focused, unless you purposefully withdraw from the East.
I'll said the best is Epeiros, if you play your cards right, you can immediately take Pella with your Elephants, and then sell Taras for a healthy profit to the Romans (along with ceasefire). Conquer Greece, and make the Makedonians kick the bucket immediately, and you are nigh-unstoppable.
I just need to have it as a national unit, the building can be constructed :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zim
TBH Pontos is really tempting, as it starts in a very difficult location surrounded by AS and Ptolemaioi.I think this campaign has the potential for a really hard challenge and would offer the "phalanx vs phalanx" battles.
Another good candidate is Baktria, on the edge of the EB world, having to cover great distances and some exotic places to meet.The only drawback would be fighting HA armies, would force me to adopt and finally abandon the "phalanx spam" design :-P
Finally the "greek" phalanx nations, Macedonia for an ultimate imperialistic experience and Role Playing, or Epirotes with those beautiful Chaeonion Agemas crushing Pedite and Triarii.
I am in a dilemma I confess, hehe.
MACEDONIA
don't listen to the others in their lack of Heavy Spearmen, you will have plenty of others to guard your flanks. Thorikatai are cool and useful, but not the end all unit.
Macedonia is the originator of the Phalanx, they get to train the Deuteroi which is the best Pike unit in the game when all is factored in. You get to start the Conquests of Philip AND get to fight the Eagle Pyrrhus.
The only other army that can train Deuteroi Pikemen and Agrianne Assault infantry (these guys are awesome) is Epeiros, but Epeiros rides totally on Pyrrhus and to be honest as soon as Pyrrhus dies, i end my Epirote campaign.
Also as Macedonia i'm pretty sure you play as the ancestors of Antigonos the One-Eyed
Macedonia also gets the awesome reformed Pikeman. he wears chainmail and is awesome
If you want a challenge play Pontus. All you need is one upgrade of your factional barracks in Amaseia, while you start with about 6 units of (levy) Pandotapoi Phalangitai. I can´t agree that Macedonian ( or Epirote ) levy phalangitai are "the best". The eastern one ( those Pontus can recruit ) got axes as their secondary weapons - this guys rock even against heavily armoured units. "Classical" Deuteroi are not reliable, in my experience.
Even Hayasdan can recruit pahalngitai, though not as factional, but as regional units, but then all over the territories of Seleuceia and Ptolies.
Oh, and if you want a real challenge, then play on "vh" with Pontus, because then you´ll get a "kick" from all your neighbours ( and even the rebells in Micra Asia might teach you some funny lessons, like they did to me in my last campaign, ambushing my FL, and almost killing him, lol. ). You need H or VH campaign difficulty to allow the AI to take mercs; so, when you see a lonely Seleucid or Ptoleie FM wandering through your lands beware of the possibility beeing sieged next turn ;)
Right now i´m playing Macs, since i wan´t to avoid fighting Romans - i know myself, i´d kill them to fast ( @fomalhaut: as a rule, i´m letting Pyrrhus to end what he started - sack Rome, and destroy Romans before he dies :S ). But if you abandon Taras, as CuteWolf has suggested, you might have some chilling time in Greece etc.
I don't know why you'd quit after Pyrrhus dies. If he had been successful, his sons would have taken control of his empire, obviously. It's kind of like having everything ride on Diodotus I in Baktria, and as soon as he dies, quitting.
because Pyrrhus is really the only person who interests me in that faction, the faction itself doesn't have an endearing qualities to me in history or in game mechanics. they are another western greek faction with the exact same roster as Macedonians + Elephants
And awesome Chaonion Agema, as well. Although they just replace the Argyraspides, so they're not that unique. But they look absolutely stunning. I guess that makes sense, although to be honest no factions have interesting people after the first 50 years, everyone is dead that starts out and new ahistorical characters take the forefront. Epeiros is kind of fun because they're Barbaroi and Greek together, and so I can justify executing large cities and ambushing a lot easier than when I'm playing as say, Makedonia. They're also the only green faction besides the Gauls, if you like to see the world painted green without having your line infantry run like little girls every time they're flanked until 200 B.C. or so as happens with the Celts.
Hey Fomalhaut :-)
I don't mind of heavy infantry support since I am thinking of 'old-school' phalanx tactics, meaning cavalry and light infantry on the flanks.Macedonia fulfills that requirement as it excels in both.It is a VERY strong candidate indeed, for one more reason.It gives you the option to expand anywhere, while Pontus is basically an eastern nation and Epirus would look to strengthen its position on the Peninsula.
Vollorix - well I am quite used to RTW AI gangbanging tactics to the point of addiction ;-)
That's why Pontus is the other option, since I know I would have to put SOME effort to survive.I always play VH and now maybe I change the battles' level as most of you suggest.I imagine though a lot of "defend the bridge" battles, right? Also the most obvious would be to consolidate the Minor Asia's provinces.After that going where? Towards Caucasus or to the rich South, right in the face of AS and Ptolemaioi? :-P
Pontus has some nice mixture of units, plus those dreaded "fire and forget" Scythed chariots.
Finally I will choose one of these two :-)
I would never choose a dirty philhellene over a true blooded Macedonian dynasty and the brave men bred there
don't shame Philp with an army who imitates Macedonian ways but lacks every good quality of them
@Ksifos: Bridge battles ain´t fun ;) You allready know you will gain a heroic victory, you know that the enemy army will be annyhilated, their general won´t escape etc. etc. I´ve played so many Pontus campaigns that after a while you actually know the good places for a battle, and if you follow a predefined strategy you might get out of trouble within the first 5 years with ease. Rushing is the key, but whom and how varies;
- you can kick out the Seleucids from Asia Minor first, then tanke rebell settlements around you - there is no other power ther, Ptoleys are way to passiv, and as long as you don´t wipe out their main enemy too fast and too well, they won´t attack you at all.
- you can grab Ankira and "ally" yourself with the Galatians, quickly build up their local barracks ( costly, takes a while... ) and support your levy phalanx zerg tactics with stylish barbarians, slowly driving Seleucids, and Ptoleys aftrewards, away.
- you can rush Eleutheroi ( well, Ankira is one of those towns ), but Synope ( seetrade, Hellenic units ) and Trabzon ( mines, seetrade ), along with Ani Kmah ( mines ), are quite profitable after you build the infrastructer up.
- mines can be constructed in Mazaka, and 3 chevroned units can be cranked out of there ( slingers, caucasian archers, axemen of any kind, asiatic cavalry ) with lvl3 gouvernment and the Greek temple, and it can be taken on the first/second turn, depending on if your spy can open the doors for your army.
The choice is yours, as is the challenge in the campaign; if you are to fast and to good in battles, you can call Asia Minor yours within 10 years; if you are roleplaying a lot, well... that´s when things are going to become funny ( especially with some rigid houserules :S )
@fomalhaut: I don´t know much about Alexander, aside from general infos, but weren´t the Macs calling themselfs Greeks? At least something Pontic rulers never did, as they were proud Persians; and that´s the way i allways play my campaigns, trying to recreate the Persian Empire rather then conquering Greece - way too unrealistic, and too early in the game ( waiting for Romans to come ). Btw: the Arsakids used to call themself philhellenes too, at least in the earlier phase of their reign ;)
Fomalhaut - lol
Vollorix - if you rush and gather strength the AI will counter that with the infamous 'gangbanging'.All vs you.Have faced that situation dozen of times ;-)
In that case I use any means to defend myself and survive.
For example in my KH campaign, after almost 15 years of non stop battles with Ptolemaioi, when I grabbed Tarsus I had almost immediately AS declaring war and sending 2 to 3 "elite" full stacks" / per turn, so I had to use the bridge and fight back, or else I would be dead :-P
What you say about map stands true, but what is the difference from standing on a mountain top with slingers /archers and the enemy not having a chance to even come close? Just a little ;-)
It's nice what you suggest but not applicable when you 're getting gangbanged :-P
Yes I do roleplay but it's not my primary objective.
PS - I had almost finished my Casse campaign (only the last town of Aedui ws left, still heavily fortified) when Romani unleashed all their power towards me,lol.And now I am stuck fighting those @$*&# Pedite around the Alps.Bad fortune for them fresh british armies are coming through the channel :-P
Pontos is nice, but I wouldn't play it for the Phalanx vs Phalanx fights, as they really don't measure up. You got your levy pikemen, and you got your elite pikemen. The levy pikemen are decent, but get torn to pieces in an outright fight with any medium phalanx. Your "elites" are.. well, they're bad. In my experience (Pontos is the nation I've played the most), they're not much better than the medium pikemen the seleucids throws at you. And yes, this is even on medium.. Still an amusing campaign, I just found my self to be using other units than my pikemen :/
I'd really go for Epeiros, you can whipe out Macedon from mainland Greece, and hopefully they'll take over Asia minor, so you can get some pikemen action over there as well. If not, either the Seleucids or the Egyptians will be there to duke it out with you :)
(you could do it with Macedon too, I just find their units to be uninspirering :s)
selling taras ? the blasphemy furthermore tara is 75% of your tax income if you´re already crippled at the start as epeiros economically (and yes you can take pella and demetrias on the very 1st round if you use your elephants right and wait for the right time to charge the maks in the back and always but always when charging with the elephants make sure they are guarded by the illiryan cavarlryman they´re indepensable and one the enemt routs they mop up all the enemies before they reach the town square)
selling tara is a mistake and as i said use phyrros the elephants and whatever unit you can use to take demetrias and pella and send alexander to taras if you survive there he will be one of your 2 best generals once phyrrus dies (him and ptolomaios)
the thing with epeiros is learning proper siege strategies open 3 holes on the wall send in the kelts or some other lighter unit to gain time as you place your phallanx pull back the lighter troops let all units be fighting against the phallanx place your elephants escorted by the illiryans and then kick them in the back trunk style and they´ll rout you can also use your general for the escort and mop them up duty´s but make sure skirmishers are either engaged or eliminated don´t let them near your ellies while they can still shoot (in rebel barbaroi setlements this is more problematic since there´s no squared city´s and it can be dificult to concentrate them all against one phallanx with a hole on the wall for you to pass your ellies by)
epeiros is a fun campaign but you might take longer to take control and operationalise your balkanic mines (more economical problems then for instance kh and maks) also after you take demetrias go for peace with makedonia they´ll keep each other busy and won´t attack you (i´ve been able to keep peace with kh for 50 years because makedonia is still in control of chalkis)
in italy your main duty is to survive once you take the balkans you can start concentrating on italy by ferrying your units over to italy and trying to take as fast as possible sicily particulary syracuse who will be your main recruitment center (on huge man power is very important you will have to take akontistai around the balkans to allow your city´s to reach 2k population so you can develop your mining activities so plan head and plan well because that shifting of population around costs money that might make you loose alot of turns in mine building)
once syracuse is taken you´ll be able to reigh supreme since they should enable you to recruit thureporoi and deutoroi from turn 1 wich with taras will grant you enough manpower to face rome
as for makedonia and despite what a few people said once you´re 50 years into the campaign all the cdtc and the dificulty of winning with phallanxs will make the throkitai invaluable since you´ll want to start autoresolving batles and thats where they´re the most precious babies (altough in batles you fight they can hold the line for your agrarians and thrakians and gallothracians to flank)
i understand fully well the allure of makedonia you can take athens on turn 1 (just used a few men from chalkis to siege the city and they´ll sally out altough i prefer the hold siege it with your faction leader and the thessaloy and charge them down the hill after your akontistai and slingers have weaken them you can call you in the mediums altough i prefer to use them with your corinthian army to take take sparta the batle beteween corinth and sparte is all about proper cavarly use so all cavarly you can call in is invaluable to win that fight and once you do you can take sparte by turn 3 ) you can protect pella with the original general akontistai and a unit of deuteroi (you can also leave a unit of thessaloy there and try to hunt down and kill phyrrus from the start use the thessaloy to attack phyrrus retreat to a place where phyrrus will have his back to one of the shooting towers and use swords meanwhile leave your general in position if he tries to pull back use the general to hunt him down) another trick is to keep running around the city walls and let the epirote bg´s die by arrows but then he tens to escape another one is after weakaning just charge them in the back with your general (use the thessaloi to tire them and weaken them) and run them down tired(exausthed) epirote bg´s will be easily caught by fresh makedonian bg´s
as for the ellies just place the akontistai with shooting at will off and wait for the ellies to come into range if it works well 80% of the time the ellies run amok before they can breach the gate if not it´s a matter of how your deutoroi will fare and for how long
You know, once I started using Alexander with EB, I almost never get crashes even 100 or 200 years into the campaign. I had some issues with unofficial mods, but those are cleared up too. I recommend Alex.exe with L3z's modpack until Jirisys' is 100% stable.
Here's my way to play Epiros. Basically never fails. I'll also quantify it, by saying that you absolutely do not need to follow up taking all of Greece with the rampage through Italy. Once you have Pella, Dem, Ambrakia, Epi,Sparta, Corinth,Chalkis and Athens (as early as turn 5), you'll be rolling in cash.Quote:
Originally Posted by moonburn
You can then continue very slowly, even disbanding most of your army in Ambrakia to add quick pop.
ON TOPIC, my fave Phalanx nation is Mak. Just avoid war in the west with Rome at all costs, as they are the bulldog that won't let go...
True that. Without blitzing them the Romans are one of my top 3 most annoying factions to fight, right beneath Arche Seleukeia and Saka Rauka. I'd rather fight Sauromatae than Romani... And I DON'T like fighting Sauromatae.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewski
Really? I'd prefer fighting the romans every day. In my carthage games the iberians are always a bigger nuissance than the romans, and as anyone east of italy, the insane might of either Arche or Ptollies will eventually come to stomp on you. And if they fail once? They just stomp harder.
In essence: if they don't have pikes, I'm not really worried. (Although I'll agree, that the Sauromatae can be annoying)
I prefer Epeiros. I've always had a soft spot for Pyrrhos and they also have an interesting starting position and some great units. I like the fact that they have both Agranian Assault Infantry and Thorakitai, I don't think any other faction has access to both of them. They also have the Illyrian regionals, which may not be great units, but I do enjoy them, and the Illyrian Light Cavalry in particular are suprisingly good (they have great stamina and speed and they also have AP axes which means they can take on heavier cavalry quite well when microed correctly). Plus, Epeiros technically has the best elite phalanx in the game (Chaion Agema), although it is only true by one attack point over the Agryaspides I think.
Epeiros also makes for an interesting and fairly difficult early game if you do not solely blitz Greece and ignore Italy. I would suggest trying to hold Taras against the Romans; 1. because it is possible, and 2. because it is more fun than just giving it up. You can take Pella and Demetrias with less than the full army that you start with in Greece, so I would suggest sending some units to Italy. I usually take the Illyrian Light Cav (the Romans generally have no good counter to this fast cav early on) and the Illyrian levy spearmen for simple numbers. Then recruit Levy Hoplites in Taras to fill out your battle line, they can hold quite well from the front. Just remember that you are not trying to push back the Romans yet, just hold them in the mountain passes and make your move later once you've consolidated Greece.
Plus, Epeiros has the most epic faction intro video ever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs8wtEw77yY
How come Epeiros having the BEST elite pikemen unit in the game? Shouldnt that be Macedonia as the originators of the unit? Does this fact stands historically true? :-oQuote:
Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII
Great Vid really enjoyed it :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by WinsingtonIII
Are these supposed to play when you start each faction's campaigns? Because all I get is a marble tablet with a "Europa Barbarorum".
Pyrrhus maybe reformed it much better? who knows
Well, they're an Epeirote take on Argyraspides, the developers probably thought that they had equivalent training and equipment but maybe a little extra bit of ferocity justifying a +1 attack bonus, since they're Barbarian Greeks really. Also the Argyraspides have a huge area of recruitment, I don't think the Epeirote Chaionon Agema has the same AoR.
Chaonion agema may be the Strongest Pike unit but personally I think other factors are more important to make the BEST unit. the Makedonian Military can rely on a much greater basis of recruits(AOR as mentioned above) and also has an additional pikeman unit that makes them the faction with most pikemen ^^ meaning five opposed to one, three and four.
similar case is for the Pontic bronzeshields (good ole third place for elite pikemen^^) who may be somewhat weaker than silvershields but are much cheaper aswell and thus actually make a fairly good unit , funny enough they are actually identical to the reformed phalangites of the makedonians
ps: is it just the unit list or are Argys hardy and Chaonians not?
IMO the Chaonians are pretty ugly, they look made of plastic which is a common issue i have of many elites. way too clean for my tastes
I don't like the Hound motifs either. Macedonias reformed Phalanx is the only unit you need once you get them due to their effectiveness and just how nice and simple they look, form some silver shields to roleplay your veterans forming a corps but that's it.
Chaonian can be recruted in the capital only im pretty sure, while Makedonian Deuteroi, Pezhetairoi and Agryaspidai can be recruited in many lands.
Macedonia is just a better faction I think. And this is coming from the Eagle's biggest fan
Well the team has done a great job and I will trust them.I just think that pike-phalanx was about discipline and arms, something the "poor greco-Illyrians" probably lacked.
Fomalhaut - Chaeonion Agema is a nice design.Ok maybe it's not realistic but elites should look ...elites :-P
In fact many unit designs are great and way better than vanilla that's for sure.So no major complaints from me.
About Macedonia I tend to agree with you.I guess it should have a strong story like KH, right? Like cities wanting to join my glorious nation ,etc.I have the feeling Macedonia would be a good role-playing experience, so maybe I lower the difficulty and instead of being a maniac butcher, play as a patrician :-)
OFFTOPIC: I had some "complications" with Romani in my Casse campaign, havent' finished it yet.They gangbanged me only one city before the end, got mad with them and now I am burning and plundering their homeland.Time to pay back :-P
Btw I started the Casse campaign, just to get the grasp of a barbarian nation but now, being almost to the end, I cant believe how much FUN it is.Only when you see a "3 silver chevron" Kluddargos , charging a Pedite and hitting 15 kills on contact (Pedite routes :-D) you can feel the british might in all its glory, hehe.
I don't care about the visual distinction, i mean the silver shields were named such for a reason and i'm sure the elite of any nation would be conspicously armored in a way to show off their prestigous status. i'm just saying in particular the chaonion are a little too action figurey for my tastes
well think of the history of the Antigonid dynasty! great story. the great Antigonos the One Eyed is your grandfather and it was your dynasty that lasted all the way until it was ended by the Romans. but under your rule that won't happen ;)
plus you get to fight the usurper Pyrrhus! but to Pyrrhus you are the usurper
@Ksifos, I don't really see why Epeiros should be lacking in Discipline?
Molossians are not poor greco Illyrians you take that back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:'(
:'(
plus, at least under Pyrrhus, the Epirote kingdom were probably just as, or even more than, disciplined and trained than the Macedonians. Macedonia was pretty unstable until Gonatas, right? So any military they had weren't exactly Philip II material. And Macedonians weren't turncoating to Pyrrhus if they thought Molossians were some lower people.
they are a noble people, just not one that particularly interest me gameplay wise compared to Macedonia
A_Dane - IMHO Illyrians resemble more to the local units (like pirates, skirmishers and light cavalry) rather than having the top pikemen unit in the game.Illyria as a geographical place is a mountain area and wouldnt make sense to have such armies - ok maybe in an enlighted period of these people's history a more organized army was formed, wtih the influence of the neighbouring Macedons to whom have been vassals (?).
I need to dig more in my history books, but IIRC Illyrian were famous "guerilla tactics" troopers, rather than organized /disciplined ...agemas.
But maybe I am wrong since the team has made such an extensive research so let's just put off the history arguments :-)
Fomalhaut - Don't take me wrong.I didn't use the term the offensive way you interpreted it :-)
I just wanted to emphasize that in terms of wealth, organization and tactics, Macedons were superior traditionally .But tradition doesn't always make the difference ;-)
As you rightly state under a great leadership a nation can stand out on top.
Illyrians in general and the Kingdom of Epirus are pretty distinct though! though obviously they have their similarities
we will never know though, Macedon in it's prime never fought against Epirus due to their long standing alliance through marriage (its why if you look at a map of Alexander's conquests there's always that conspicous chunk missing in greece). And Post Alexander Epirus was under Pyrrhus who had a macedonian style army probably composed of many macedonians!
I know next to nothing on the Epirote culture though, i hope in EBII their culture can be expanded upon because i think they are more than just greco-barbarians. quisque est, after all
Just to take the thread into a whole other direction but still stay on topic:
I like Baktria a lot, when it comes to Pike nations.Yes they lack the elite phalanx but they get a levy one and two medium phalanxes that hold pretty well. They have great supporting troops, an incredibly versatile roster... Good skirmishers and archers, elephants, if you like them. Good heavy infantry, a nice royal guard, hoplite unit... and a good and versatile cavalry including everything from light skirmisher cav, to armored horse archers and heavy cataphracts :)
So you get the phalanx and every support for it you could ever ask for, other than a tank maybe ^^
elite phalanx means so much though -_-
Even more slightly off topic. Phalanx units are almost bugged in RTW. Try a custom battle, with 2 equal Phalanx units (or a line of equal units) facing off, but with one unit (or line) on very, very slightly higher ground. The higher ground unit, will take hardly any, and sometimes zero casualties, while the lower unit will eventually rout after massive losses. And I'm not talking about huge 45% slopes here. Just very small differences in elevation.
It isn't in any way EB's fault, its a broken game mechanic.
well basically it means that you won't win a phalanx pushing match against the big ones(or pontos when they get their bronzeshields(whom I fancy the best looking elite phalangites, eventho they are identical to the not elite reformed phalangites^^)), UNLESS you charge in their back with your superior and better used cavalry, but when having played KH you know that feeling ;).
I like bactria but more for it's diversity than it's phalangites.
oh and culturally epirotes are not that far off from makedonians, to some extent I'd say they are to illyrians what the Makedonians are to thracians. just that while the makedonians got their "reform" some generations ago in which they imported a lot of greek culture the Epirotes had that "reform" just some years ago and failed in their attempt to conquer "ye known world"
@Kfisos; the fact that the majority of a nation dosn't fight in a "disciplined" way, dosn't mean that the upper elites couldn't be disciplined? And considering Pyrrhus fought the romans/Macedonians/greeks for so long, there must have been some sort of disciplin in his army...
Yeah I also like Baktria for their diversity, as I stated, but they are a "phalanx nation", so I guess they apply ;)
and yeah, you don't win a pushing match against armies that field elites... in most cases that will be the Arche for you and later maybe Pontos and the Ptolies but you have superior flanking troops against almost all of them and thats both cavalry and infantry.... and elephants :P
It makes sense that the pikemen on a hill would slaughter those below them. That's a big increase in reach and it's much easier to push a pike downhill than uphill. Plus, the guys below can't bring their shields up as quickly or even as high to block incoming pike heads.
I just played a HUGE battle last night and... wow, i didn't realize that PHALANXES ARE BROKEN ON SLOPES. My units were facing probably a 25* slope upward and Sabean Bodyguards rush my KLEROUCHON AGEMA, my goddamn nobles who were probably joking about these sweet smelling desert people and how much of their land they will take, got MASSACRED. i use caps because i was in total disbelief:
The Sabeans literally just walked through (not fight through like heavy units can do) the entire pike wall on my entire front forcing my guys to engage in melee. NOT ONE of my phalangites even attempted the stabbing motion but immediately went to sword. It ruined, literally, everything.
every time i think i understand the phalanx in game mechanic terms, i learn something new.
I understand that Phalanx are at a disadvantage in real life on uneven terrain, but in real life the entire formation wouldn't just say "since i am standing on a slight slope i will not use this 12 foot pike in my hand"
expletive expletive expletive expletive Creative Assembly, you should be happy the EB team doesn't have a better engine to use their superior game on. what a PATHETIC engine. absolute trash. what were they thinking? did they not do an uneven terrain battle during their 20 minutes of testing before Sega rushed the flaming pig infested game out?
iirc correctly RTW wasn't originally published under SEGA, I might be wrong though ;)
I'm seriously not talking big slopes here. A tiny incline, almost imperceptible, will have very similar results. Maybe a 2% slope.Quote:
Originally Posted by CashMunny
I feel your pain.Quote:
Originally Posted by fomalhaut
Playing as Mak yesterday, I had the slight slope vs AS. They had a full stack plus 2 little reinforcements, I had a balanced full stack. My main line of 4 Pez and 2 Elite Phalanx, took I think 8 casualties. Their 7 Units (1694 men)were totally wiped out.
In the drips and drabs of reinforcements, they had a Hellenic Med Phalanx, which stopped, not knowing what to do. I ordered one of my Elite Phalanx to engage it, so it marched in that very slow zombie style towards it, while I occupied myself with the remaining smallish skirmish battles and chasing routers. Less than a minute (or so) later I checked back on their progress. The HMP of AS had 241/242 men, my triple bronze Elites were down to 90 men! I hadn't notice that the HMP was on a very slight upslope. Naturally, one charge from The Heteroi had them routing, but I'd lost most of a valuable unit (a Loooong way from home).
I rest my case (for now) ;)
OFFTOPIC: Just to clarify on my early comment, Epiros was of pure greek origin and tradition.In fact it was the Illyrians that were of "barbarian" (in the meaning of not greek) culture, and the ones hunted both by Macedones and later Romans.So I take back the "poor greco-Illyrians", as it is not correct ;-)
ONTOPIC: About the phalanx and rough terrains.Phalanx was designed to perform in open, flat fields.That's where it showed its full potential.Most phalanx battles both of Phillipe and later Alexander, are on such terrains strategically chosen by them.Phalanx was at a big disadvantage on sloppy, rough terrains for the simple reason it couldn not maintain its 'disciplined formation', hence gaps would occur.
A very good example of that handicap is the Battle of Cynoscephalae where the Roman general Titus Quinctius Flaminius took advantage of it and soundly defeated Philip V of the Antigonids.Please refer to that battle for details.
IMO it's not so much of an engine flaw. rather than an effort of CA to put that element inside the engine.Do not forget we speak of a game released on 2003, hence developed some years before.Let's not be harsh with it ;-)
trust me i understand the battle of dog heads but that is really giving CA the benefit of the doubt. what makes you think they were trying to be 'historically accurate' about this nuance of late hellenistic warfare and not about flaming pigs, roman ninjas, etc?
it's poor programming, nothing more.
We're not harsh... or not too harsh ;)
just talking... And, well, sure a phalanx needs to have good, stable, flat ground to deply and function properly but still, fighting an inferior unit, on a 2% slope uphill shouldn't result in losing 3/4 of your unit while killing 2-3 men, that's definitely not how it would have turned out in real life...
exactly. alexander had to fight uphill and across a river and that didn't seem to affect much. i understand phalanx warfare historically speaking, and a 10 PERCENT SLOPE SHOULD NOT = YOUR ENTIRE UNIT AND THEIR 12 FOOT SPEARS BECOMING USELESS
:(
Hehe ok.
Btw Casse campaign is finished, so it's Phalanx time baby :-P
I made up my mind and gonna start a Macedonia campaign with role playing in mind, so lower difficulty settings.What do you suggest?
M/H or maybe H/H, or H/M? What would be ideal for role playing?
The effects of terrain are exaggerated and so is the terrain itself.
Many of the slopes are such that it would be impossible to stand there not to mention fighting.
Such mountainsides should be impassable terrain imho.
Ksifos i say M/M unless you like unbalanced battles (H/H)
kill the usurper! kill the tyrant Pyrrhus! just be sure you take auto fire from your akontistai specifically for those elephants because they WILL end your career early
yeah Trax i've found the amount of hills and such to be kind dumb, i cherish the few flat fields i can find. Athens has the best battlefield
I alter between H/H or H/M. I've been arguing with my self whether or not to switch to M/M, but that means no AI mercenaries, and then I just feel like I'm cheating :/
But really, I prefer it being somewhat biased in the AI's favour statwise, without going totally overboard. (my only VH/VH campaign ended when my elite phalanx was torn to pieces by a head on charge by an Hetairoi cavalry unit -.-. (And yes I had slight elevation in my favour). I want a challenge, but I don't want it to be ridicolous :)
(Ps: Pyrrhus ftw ;))
Hmm the AI not recruiting mercs? That's something I wouldn't like since it is unrealistic.Is there a some sort of info describing what differences exist between difficulty levels?
The ai doesn't recruit Mercs on Medium. I ONLY will play medium campaign now, maybe getting older, but I got bored of fighting endless repetitive battles, and especially ones full of whatever the local merc pool is. Where's the fun in that? If I'm Mak, I want to fight AS in Phalanx wars, not full stacks of galatians/karian/cappo etc. mercs.
If you're going to blitz, then of course go hard or very hard campaign.
Plus on medium campaign, you can also even sometimes get ceasefires with a shared border ai (shockhorror), and diplomacy actually vaguely makes some kind of sense.
To doubters, Medium campaign plays very well, you just have to give the ai a chance to develop and use some roleplay/house rules yourself. If you actually enjoy the non stop battles, then I wouldn't bother. They'll come, but later in the game, when some of the ais have developed and started to dominate.
EDIT: Actually the ai does recruit Mercs on Medium, (I saw Rome doing it in a recent campaign) but rarely, and never more than the odd unit.
anything above medium on either is far too unbalanced in my opinion. stat inbalance isn't my idea of fun
I'd say it depends on what you played your KH campaign on, and how easily you could play that one - so either maintain the difficulty or go up with the campaign difficulty by one. - if you played KH on H/M now play on VH/M unless you can't handle phalangites(like myself).
as now you've got all the little tricks it needs to play a western hellenic faction in EB.^^
Along with AI mercenary recruitment, Hard campaign difficulty allows rebels to attack you as well. I've never seen the point in higher difficulty battles though, as it just gives your enemies unrealistic stat bonuses.
i prfer the infinitely rich AI to not have access to mercenaries in that way.
I have to say that I'm really split between Makedon and Baktria. Makedon I enjoy because they are essentially the classic troop roster that Alexander the Great would have used on his campaigns. Though the regional greek troops are boring as hell, some of the the Thracian and Getic troops are absolutely brutal. The Elite Thracian warriors with the romphaia are absolutely devastating once they get some experience behind them. I also adore the Agrianian assault infantry; their javelin range is insane.
Baktria on the other hand, might come out on top for me. They really are the perfect fusion of Hellenic and eastern cultures and have some of the most flexible recruiting options in the game. If you want to build a traditional Macedonian phalanx-based army you can, but if you want to create a steppe-style horse archer and cataphract-based army you can as well. The Hellenic Cataphracts are beasts on the field, and they have the some of the best horse archers in the game.
Although I enjoy the pikemen-based armies, they are the easiest to play as. They require almost no management, as you can just put them on guard mode and let the enemy come to you and then flank them with your melee infantry and cavalry. Shock and melee infantry-based armies (like the Romans and barbarian factions) often require a lot of babysitting to make sure they aren't getting the crap kicked out of them
For me the amount of micromanaging to make sure your pikes are actually working is plenty and overwhelming. remember defense mode when pike v pike attacking, but take off guard mode when you are being attacked by a pike. also beware of the slightest slopes! and lots of just wtf moments. Phalanx take lots of finesse if you ask me, both in real life and in figuring out the nuances of the game mechanics related to them. CA didn't try to make Phalanx work so we have to work around that
but yeah, Macedonia and Baktria are probably two of the best factions in the game. Macedonia is classic Philip/Alexander style army with awessssomeeeee regionals, Thracians and Agriannes? yes please!
but Baktria is the outpost of so called civilization and the fused warfare/culture is soooo cool. Indo-Greeks is a subject that greatly interests me and i only knew they existed because of EB
I'd play Baktria a lot more often if I didn't get sandwiched between 3 highly frustrating and/or powerful factions (Seleukeia, Saka Rauka, Pahlava) at the start and if they didn't take away two of Baktria's starting provinces. I know that before they took Alexandreia-Eschate and Marakanda the Baktrians were always turning into a blue death but now they're almost always stuck trying to even take over India. And If I play them I usually have to buy Alexandreia-Eschate and Marakanda to have a chance. If I don't, 99% of the time the Seleucids just run me over.
Current Mak campaign, AS have everything in the far east, all the way to the edge of the map in India. I slowly advanced through Asia minor using 2 full stacks to take each city. (One to garrison until local troops could be recruited and dissent had lessened, and one to fight when necessary, as I absolutely cannot stand full stack sally battles, they are so messy-every unit needs its formation altering, and 3000+ troops take forever to get through the gates to start with, never mind getting them into some semblance of a sensible fighting formation). I stopped at Antioch and currently have 4 full stacks guarding it and every possible approach, and still the AS is sending a full stack or two every few turns.
Medium isn't so easy if you go slowly ;)
First time I've ever seen AS take out Baktra so early on, and continue to rampage East as well...Of course, the second the AS backstabbed me, they not only ceasefired the Ptols, they also formed an Alliance with them(ho-hum). At least I've had many temporary truces with AS, the longest lasting 6 yrs or so. I have an Assassin army in Byzantion to kill any AS diplomats that try to get through and Ally with either Rome, or Getai (my longtime allies and border sharers). One got through that I somehow missed, made an Alliance with the Getai, then I saw a ragtag bunch of AS troops approaching one of my fullstacks. Knowing that they would attack just to break my alliance with Getai, I struck first and let them run away, then chased the diplomat to his death ;)
An interesting game overall. Limited peace through a huge military presence.
Baktra are really good fun, and have a great varied roster with something of everything (plus Indian Guild Warriors, who are carbon copies of Elite Thracians you can get in the East), but have it quite tough if early situations go against you. Plus the provinces are so huge that they all need a garrsion of some kind, and you never really make much money (compared to any of the western civilized factions that is).
It´s a bit off topic, but still...
@Drewski: concerning "medium" campaign difficulty i have to say i´m experiencing quite unsusual thing while playing Macs - Eleutheroi towns are building troops, quality troops, no crap skirmishers! ( Syracuse building Lonchophoroi, Syracuse Hoplites, and Peltastai, for example ) The only real difference to other campaigns: i cheated a bit ( 90k mnai given to my treasury ) to help out Romans: i bought off two small armies of Epiros who are gangbanging Romans badly ( took Capua allready... ) after i´ve driven them off from Greece. Also, i´ve been attacked by a spawned rebell force near Demetrias ( i was on the high ground, i had 2:1 men power, lol ), too. That was even before i used the money cheat. I´ve also seen AI taking mercenaries ( Epirotes got merc phalangitai, not in my current game, though ).
It´s a bit off topic, but still...
@Drewski: concerning "medium" campaign difficulty i have to say i´m experiencing quite unsusual thing while playing Macs - Eleutheroi towns are building troops, quality troops, no crap skirmishers! ( Syracuse building Lonchophoroi, Syracuse Hoplites, and Peltastai, for example ) The only real difference to other campaigns: i cheated a bit ( 90k mnai given to my treasury ) to help out Romans: i bought off two small armies of Epiros who are gangbanging Romans badly ( took Capua allready... ) after i´ve driven them off from Greece. Also, i´ve been attacked by a spawned rebell force near Demetrias ( i was on the high ground, i had 2:1 men power, lol ), too. That was even before i used the money cheat. I´ve also seen AI taking mercenaries ( Epirotes got merc phalangitai, not in my current game, though ).
Sorry for the double post.... my connections is lagging somehow ;(
I agree. Plus, no matter what faction I play, I like to hire mercenaries myself. It's expensive, but doesn't reduce your town population and thus your income.Quote:
Originally Posted by fomalhaut
KH campaign was at VH/H, while I enjoyed a lot the battles (are there bonuses in H?) I had to fight non-stop almost 15 years with Ptolemaioi, over Minor Asia.And when I beated them AS just started a new series of fights.It was fun but too much :-P
In my Casse campaign it was VH/VH but only near the end I dealt with the "endless armies" phenomenon, having Romani sending a bunch each round.
So since I intend to roleplay I will opt for medium -you say the AI recruits mercs, which I want to- and maybe hard for battles.
About Baktria.Probably you could field more "classical" army compositions, I mean closer to the Philip/Alexander's design, but what about your nearby enemies? Dont they rely on horse archers? Because if true, then it would be imperative to adapt or else you 'de be having some hard times chasing those blasted horse archers all over the map :-P
I played the other day, a custom battle for testing purposes.And utilised those elite Thracian heavy infantry with their mighty swords.These guys are the definition of "BRUTAL".In fact they were cutting through enemy lines, and took two or three enemy units to halt their "butchering" advance.They were absolutely impressive.
IIRC they can be recruited in an allied governed Tylis by the top level "MIC for locals".These would make some nasty allies if I plan to go against the Romans (die Pedite :-P)...some day. :creep:
Concerning "phalanx tactics" from the little I experienced with the KH: depending on the opposition I altered their depth (for example against heavy infantry I would go for at least 6 men deep) and just grabb them and draw a line behind the enemy.Meaning simply moving them towards the enemy and they would auto-engage.I found this the easier way to utilise the phalanx giving me time to deal with the dozens of small skirmishes that happen on the flanks.
As Baktria you get the Eastern Equivalent of the Thracian Elites; The Guild Warriors of India. they are BRUTAL. and much more exotic. i'd imagine even Elite Thracians would be scared of these people from another world.
Guild Warriors absolutely destroy Silver Shields, Hypaspists like they were still baby faced recruits.
In fact i roleplayed that my Guild Warriors wanted as payment for their services only to fight against the Hypaspists of AS. It was 120 v 120 and my entire army watched as it happened (the hypaspists were the last enemy unit), the guild warriors and Hypaspists fought a long battle, but ultimately we won :D
In fact I tried to load a custom battle to test these units against each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by fomalhaut
I didn't manage to start the battle (I am on Alex.exe) no matter what.I could set battlemap, factions, choose units but when pressing "proceed to battle" it just halted to the units screen :-s
Still comparing through cost (all gold chevrons, weapons) Thraikioi Romphaiaphoroi must be a bit better :-P
idk, i think they are about equal. Indian archers are also the equivalent of bastarnae, except with huge bows :D
with the indian units, you could take on the world.
Indian Spearmen as line
Archers -> anti armor after arrows are spent
Guild Anti everything, flankers
Elephants = hammer
Indo Iranian Horsemen = screen, harass, rout cleanup
Only thing with Baktra and the Indian units, is the huuuge distance they will be from home, if fighting the most obvious enemy, the AS, around say Persepolis. There is absolutely no chance of retraining, so I usually follow a main stack with some non fighting reserves (expensive though) to replace fallen men. And trying to get even the most energetic, cheerful General to march said distance, will reduce him to a quivering wreck, who eventually basically refuses to move...;)
@Vollorix that's interesting thoughts/observations on Medium campaign, thanks for sharing :) One of my house rules, is that all rebel spawning stacks must be dealt with immediately, whatever the circumstances. I also love Bribing armies. As Mak, Roman Massalia revolted to KH, and i spent several 100k bribing Romans who tried to take it back, until it became too expensive. But it kept the Romans occupied for several years doing basically nothing else, so served it's purpose.
Well as Baktria you would face both classic pahlanx enemies and horse archers... one from the steppe that's basically nothing else than HA (that's very easy to counter...) and Pahlava who mixes it up with other troops... so you get both and have to adapt to both which makes Baktria so much fun ;)
Well, I'm not very found of phalangites but had very nice games with Baktria and Epirus ;)
Why? Awesome skins, awesome rosters, elephants and some time before being swarmed by endless AS spamming (the main reason that I don't play more often in the east, after the 984938924 stack I usualy get bored).
Out of all the unit skins, Baktria has the best. those Peltasts are beautiful! the only ones that are prettier are the Ptolemy Squids
Unfortunately, only a couple of intro videos were made, so most factions still have the placeholder you describe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksifos
I am doing a campaign with the Ptolemaioi on VH/H. Current year is 236 BC, the Seleucids send enormous armies against Alexandria every year (currently 9th siege) and I have already lost Syria to the Seleucids. From the West the Quarthadast are threatening me with smaller raids and have already took Kyrene from me.
So if you want a great challenge, you should definiately try the Graeco-Aegyptos Ptolemaioi
Ludens - yes the one with Epirus is brilliant! Just the creator doesnt want to reveal the music theme he used :-P
In less than an hour I am giving ...some exams.It is quite an achievement, I managed to study a bit, having the "EB temptation" around my mind, lol
So I will soon be in the pleasant position to take control of the "glorious-wannabe" faction of Macedonia :-)
Still if any of you have any "pikemen" ongoing campaigns, feel free to share your experience through this thread.I might too.
Something useful could come out of it. ;-)