I have Never Read An article with which I have so Vehemently Disagreed

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth...579533291.html

A 4000 word strawman complete with another strawman wrapped within the larger strawman narrative.

Is their a section of Isreali society that sees this as a zero sum game? (Every Arab child is one more brick in the wall so to speak) of course. However there is also a section of Plaestinian society...A much larger, much more politcaly active, and much better armed section that think the exact same thing.

Of course this is how the author feels as well. Any show of sympathy toward Jewish children is sympathy that is taken away from Arab children. Couple that with a nice dose of good ol fashion Arab victim "everything is black and white" mentallity and you get a diatrbae of how we demonize children and it's institutionilized.

Then to try an extrapolate the arguement into somekind of reflection of US race relations is a trip into bizzarro world. As if the phrase tough neighborhood is execlusivly used in such narrow terms. I have never heard the Isreali-Palistine conflict framed in such a way. An utter trash paragraph that serves only to give faux ammunition to the authors rediculous claims.

And of course when you use words like "Jewish Settler colony" you lose all credibilty with me. Such phrases are best left in a 1000 level polysci course.

Do I agree with allowing Jewish kids writing death messages on artillery peices? No. Do I agree with a Plaistenian Mickey Mouse spreading Jew hate? No. See how that works, I can simultaneously acknoweldge two wrongs are happening at once and I manage to do it without de-humanizing anyone!

The writer doesn't seem to acknowledge that whilst comments about how the conflict is affecting Palestine apply to all Palestinians, any comments about how it is affecting Israel usually only apply to the most vulnerable i.e. the elderly and children, so of course there is going to be a bias towards comments about Israeli children and not so many about Palestinian children.

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And of course when you use words like "Jewish Settler colony" you lose all credibilty with me.

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I gave up at "Arabopaedophobia"

Also, did anyone get the impression that the author thought that Israel was responsible for that Gazan boy selling vegetables in the rain?

Generally speaking, I find that AJE is somwehat like Fox News, only in some other part of some spectrum (I read both from time to time, I should say).

My hopes weren't high after "Although Palestinian children endure lives of suffering, Obama's love for their Israeli counterparts knows no limit.", but they sank still lower in the first paragraph. Kind of funny, though, the intellectual effort that went into this is reminiscent of that Glenn Beck clip about the Arab Spring where it was the Turks wot done it.

Even though the article itself is biased and written more like a propaganda piece, no one acknowledged that Palestinian children are indeed living in worse conditions than Israeli (their parents likewise), that Israelis are indeed colonizing the land so they can later claim it and that US supports all that (even though Obama toned it down somewhat).

...Do I even want to look at that artical?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth...579533291.html

A 4000 word strawman complete with another strawman wrapped within the larger strawman narrative.

Is their a section of Isreali society that sees this as a zero sum game? (Every Arab child is one more brick in the wall so to speak) of course. However there is also a section of Plaestinian society...A much larger, much more politcaly active, and much better armed section that think the exact same thing.

Of course this is how the author feels as well. Any show of sympathy toward Jewish children is sympathy that is taken away from Arab children. Couple that with a nice dose of good ol fashion Arab victim "everything is black and white" mentallity and you get a diatrbae of how we demonize children and it's institutionilized.

Then to try an extrapolate the arguement into somekind of reflection of US race relations is a trip into bizzarro world. As if the phrase tough neighborhood is execlusivly used in such narrow terms. I have never heard the Isreali-Palistine conflict framed in such a way. An utter trash paragraph that serves only to give faux ammunition to the authors rediculous claims.

And of course when you use words like "Jewish Settler colony" you lose all credibilty with me. Such phrases are best left in a 1000 level polysci course.

Do I agree with allowing Jewish kids writing death messages on artillery peices? No. Do I agree with a Plaistenian Mickey Mouse spreading Jew hate? No. See how that works, I can simultaneously acknoweldge two wrongs are happening at once and I manage to do it without de-humanizing anyone!

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Bollox, Strike.

That article is a very fine examination of US discourse about Israel.

You have my attention

Yes, I was afraid you'd say that.

Courtesy now obliges me to expand on my stated opinion. What was I thinking? :wall:



Hmmm...maybe I can put you off guard with a quick tribesie, and get away with it: Now then, Strike, has it never occurred to you in your judeogerontophilia that there is a noticable difference in the treatment of Jews and Arabs in the mainstream American press, notably, that this press writes from a complete internalisation of the Israeli point of view?
Owing to the strength of the Jewish lobby, the overrepresentation in American media, movie and media finance of people who identify with the Israeli side, and to a general acceptance of the post-1945/8 theological-cultural invention of a 'common Judeo-Christian culture'?

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Hmmm...maybe I can put you off guard with a quick tribesie, and get away with it: Now then, Strike, has it never occurred to you in your judeogerontophilia that there is a noticable difference in the treatment of Jews and Arabs in the mainstream American press, notably, that this press writes from a complete internalisation of the Israeli point of view?
Owing to the strength of the Jewish lobby, the overrepresentation in American media, movie and media finance of people who identify with the Israeli side, and to a general acceptance of the post-1945/8 theological-cultural invention of a 'common Judeo-Christian culture'?

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:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

No laughing smileys means Tribesy-fail. :

Must be movies I haven't seen, know only the excellent Waltz with Bashir. But is a jewish kid worth more than a Palestinian one, of course, the people who make monsters out of them certainly think so. And than they get shot oh dear. They are raised to be murderous bastards and they will die as murderous bastards BLAM make another one she isn't going anywhere anyway pump her up

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

No laughing smileys means Tribesy-fail. :

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Arthur Foxache, how could I forget about them!? :wall:

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Yes, I was afraid you'd say that.

Courtesy now obliges me to expand on my stated opinion. What was I thinking? :wall:



Hmmm...maybe I can put you off guard with a quick tribesie, and get away with it: Now then, Strike, has it never occurred to you in your judeogerontophilia that there is a noticable difference in the treatment of Jews and Arabs in the mainstream American press, notably, that this press writes from a complete internalisation of the Israeli point of view?
Owing to the strength of the Jewish lobby, the overrepresentation in American media, movie and media finance of people who identify with the Israeli side, and to a general acceptance of the post-1945/8 theological-cultural invention of a 'common Judeo-Christian culture'?

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Meh, Israleis have the better PR firm no doubt but the average American will have just as much sympathy for any child. I also think Amercia frames the conflict in its own terms but not in the conflated way this peice propagates. Isreal is a functioning democracy with all the trappings of a modern state. Palestine is 3rd world. Now some of that is Isreals fault but at the end of the day Americans will generally side with the like group of people, in this case the one with a PM, congress, and shopping malls.

The most vocal Palestinian supporters in America do themselves no favors either. Basically pumping propaganda for the PLO, they earn themselves no followers. Of course most propaganda from the Arab world looks like it comes from a 3 year old autistic child but I guess that sort of thing is to be expected when you don't have elections

The mans article is so grating on common sense it's rediculous

At the end of the day it comes down to this. Isreal could keep their crazies in check, I don't think Palestine can do the same, mostly due to the countries around Palestine

So yea

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

At the end of the day it comes down to this. Isreal could keep their crazies in check,

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Remains to be seen. An effort to do that would be a start.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

No laughing smileys means Tribesy-fail. :

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Ah the "good" ole days.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Meh, Israleis have the better PR firm no doubt but the average American will have just as much sympathy for any child. I also think Amercia frames the conflict in its own terms but not in the conflated way this peice propagates. Isreal is a functioning democracy with all the trappings of a modern state. Palestine is 3rd world. Now some of that is Isreals fault but at the end of the day Americans will generally side with the like group of people, in this case the one with a PM, congress, and shopping malls.

The most vocal Palestinian supporters in America do themselves no favors either. Basically pumping propaganda for the PLO, they earn themselves no followers. Of course most propaganda from the Arab world looks like it comes from a 3 year old autistic child but I guess that sort of thing is to be expected when you don't have elections

The mans article is so grating on common sense it's rediculous

At the end of the day it comes down to this. Isreal could keep their crazies in check, I don't think Palestine can do the same, mostly due to the countries around Palestine

So yea

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Israel's PR firm is the vast majority of the Western media, so yeah, they clearly have the advantage there. They also have the advantage of vast amounts of American arms and money, which they use in fun ways, like shooting angry rock armed people from behind the safety of wire fences, or arming crazy maronite militias in order for said militias to go about slaughtering lots of dirty arab refugees. The fun really doesn't stop in Israel, for they also allow mass murderers to run their governments, far from keeping these crazies in check they let them have the run of the place.

Now about those settler colonies, sure it is not a phrase which rolls off the tongue, so I'm open to suggestions as to how one should describe those vast concrete forts built atop the remains of a "3rd world" community.
I suppose you are right in that America see's some of itself in Israel, the rank hypocrisy, the support of the semi-fascist militias and politicians which they fund to dog the societies of their unyielding neighbours, and of course the unflinching belief that they both somehow stand as beacon's of liberty against all the evidence of history.

U mad brah?

Apoplectic

That'll kill ya

Just know those same Palestinians who sneak into Jewish homes in the west bank and cut 7 year old throats do not hold such moral indignation

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

That'll kill ya

Just know those same Palestinians who sneak into Jewish homes in the west bank and cut 7 year old throats do not hold such moral indignation

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Well slap me silly with a leek, is that so? You know, I always thought murderers, just so long as they were Palestinians, were actually really nice people.

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Originally Posted by bopa the Magyar

Well slap me silly with a leek, is that so? You know, I always thought murderers, just so long as they were Palestinians, were actually really nice people.

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Well thank God you stumbled upon this thread!

Jews controlling the media is always a riot as no other country is followed with such rabid contempt. Almost all MSM is anti-Israel. Got to make sense somehow but I'm really bad at leftist logic.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Jews controlling the media is always a riot as no other country is followed with such rabid contempt. Almost all MSM is anti-Israel. Got to make sense somehow but I'm really bad at leftist logic.

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You know it isn't leftist logic, right?

You do know it was Hitler and the far-right up came up with the whole "Jew World Conspiracy" and his anti-semantic forerunners ?

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Originally Posted by Beskar

You know it isn't leftist logic, right?

You do know it was Hitler and the far-right up came up with the whole "Jew World Conspiracy" and his anti-semantic forerunners ?

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Hitler was not "Far-Right" in any real sense, but in any case anti-Semitism is just as much, if not more, a feature left-wing Communism and anarchism as it is any right wing agenda.

Right does not = More prejudiced.

It is not an acceptable shorthand, it is a smear which the left likes to cultivate. Fact is, in current mainstream politics racism and class prejudice, as well as sectarianism, are more evident on the Left than the Right.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

That'll kill ya

Just know those same Palestinians who sneak into Jewish homes in the west bank and cut 7 year old throats do not hold such moral indignation

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Did they ever prove that was actually Palastinians?

Who are Palestinians?

EDIT: Not trolling here, but seriously, what makes someone Palestinian?

Until both sides decide they really love their children more than they hate each other the situation will continue.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

You know it isn't leftist logic, right?

You do know it was Hitler and the far-right up came up with the whole "Jew World Conspiracy" and his anti-semantic forerunners ?

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Anti-semitism has a far longer and deeper history than that. The Nazi insanity was merely the "flowering" of such insipidity.

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Originally Posted by Ice

Ah the "good" ole days.

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Amen

When both parties jump all over each other to show just how enthusiastically they support the same cause - in this case, their support of a tiny, virtually meaningless nation - something is definitely going on behind the curtain. What that something is, I will not venture to say... :lipsrsealed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BaMLlnb_KI

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Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito

Until both sides decide they really love their children more than they hate each other the situation will continue.

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I don't see Israeli's turning their children into suicide bombers, it will stop when it stops

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Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger

When both parties jump all over each other to show just how enthusiastically they support the same cause - in this case, their support of a tiny, virtually meaningless nation - something is definitely going on behind the curtain. What that something is, I will not venture to say... :lipsrsealed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BaMLlnb_KI

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If Netanyahu were from any other country, he'd be denied entry to America for being a war criminal akin to the likes of Milošević.

Instead, his being the Israeli PM, the entire Congress gives him a standing ovation at the beginning of his speech. One so servile that it bears a painful resemblance to the ovations of the former Soviet party congresses.


This video indeed is what it feels like when a lobby owns your government, then plays with your balls for pleasure.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

I don't see Israeli's turning their children into suicide bombers, it will stop when it stops

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I do not get the aversion people have with suicide bombing.

The US and Israel has the same thing, just more expensive and less clever - called "smart bombs/missiles". Only difference is that one side has better financial means whereas the other has more staunch support.

Way more "innocents" have been killed by collateral damage than in suicide attacks, so who can say one is worse than the other?

Ok so some people in Palestine will turn their children into suicide bombers, just like some Israeli parents will turn their kids into mindless drones who do not mind bombing rural areas with the push of a button.

I can not really say what is worse, main point however should be that it should come to and end.

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

I do not get the aversion people have with suicide bombing.

The US and Israel has the same thing, just more expensive and less clever - called "smart bombs/missiles". Only difference is that one side has better financial means whereas the other has more staunch support.

Way more "innocents" have been killed by collateral damage than in suicide attacks, so who can say one is worse than the other?

Ok so some people in Palestine will turn their children into suicide bombers, just like some Israeli parents will turn their kids into mindless drones who do not mind bombing rural areas with the push of a button.

I can not really say what is worse, main point however should be that it should come to and end.

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Many people consider suicide itself vile under such purposes, and grooming others to commit it even more so.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Many people consider suicide itself vile under such purposes,

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Me, I think Shibumi actually hit this one on the head. And if the choice is between some “smart bomb made in America” or terrorist 1.0, I take 1.0. There's a good possibility 1.0 fails to detonate, decides not to or whatever, and there is a lot less mess even if he does explode (there's only so much explosives you can fit on a terrorist, compared to what you can drop from a plane).

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and grooming others to commit it even more so.

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But I admit that I'm not a fan of this part, either.

Yes... except for all that sectarian violence going on in Iraq-- suicide bombers have been doing a waaay better job at killing each other than American Bombs.

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

I do not get the aversion people have with suicide bombing.

The US and Israel has the same thing, just more expensive and less clever - called "smart bombs/missiles". Only difference is that one side has better financial means whereas the other has more staunch support.

Way more "innocents" have been killed by collateral damage than in suicide attacks, so who can say one is worse than the other?

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I think the reason is three-fold.

1. Most people are a little scared of death (the great unknown) and rather enjoy their existence here and now. The concept of someone seeking self-destruction when not in agonizing pain or the like is quite foreign and off-putting.

2. Most people are also angered at the covert nature of it. For all their stealthy qualities, the smart weapons et al used by US forces and some of our allies are used in more or less overt fashion -- in declared bombing campaigns and the like. You are not doomed simply because you got on bus X rather than the bus following 10 minutes later. Which is not to say that ending up dead because the bomb missed or blew up too near where you were is truly expected, but that you don't wander around always wondering if the smart bomb is coming.

3. The idea of deliberately targeting the unarmed/innocent angers many people. "Collateral damage" is so titled because those victims, while no less dead or injured, were not the intended target.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Me, I think Shibumi actually hit this one on the head. And if the choice is between some “smart bomb made in America” or terrorist 1.0, I take 1.0. There's a good possibility 1.0 fails to detonate, decides not to or whatever, and there is a lot less mess even if he does explode (there's only so much explosives you can fit on a terrorist, compared to what you can drop from a plane).



But I admit that I'm not a fan of this part, either.

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I've always found the IRA much scarier, their terrorists are able to commit multiple operations, and they came within a hair's bredth of killing Margaret Thatcher. They did this after decades of using the same tactics, the best Al-Quaida have EVER done is 9/11 and that only worked because it was a complete blindside.

Smart bombs weren't so smart in the first war with Iraq... as proven by the US auditors.

And even now plenty of occassions have these smart bombs blowing up markets, weddings and other groups of people. So quite frankly you can be killed for just having fun, being yourself and partaking in life, be it by a poorly trained brainwashed kid with a bomb vest, or by a highly trained one with a game controller and a predator drone.

Collateral damage.

I love that term. It seems to imply that the deaths; while real enough for the people who are part of the "toll"; were not intended. You drop bombs, they explode, ppl die; it is impossible to claim that the actor did not "intend" for ppl to die.

As to the article, it is slanted, biased and patently one sided. Like most journalism it's written for a target audience. Best read side by side with a similar article from the local paper of your choice.

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

Way more "innocents" have been killed by collateral damage than in suicide attacks, so who can say one is worse than the other?

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Don't shoot rockets from urban area's if collateral damage makes you a sad panda, I couldn't care less

the heart of the problem;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu6Ond1ESq8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLKk...eature=related from 10:00

^ perfectly normal tv

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They did this after decades of using the same tactics, the best Al-Quaida have EVER done is 9/11 and that only worked because it was a complete blindside.

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Dar es-Salaam?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Many people consider suicide itself vile under such purposes, and grooming others to commit it even more so.

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And here I thought - it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country.

Your post lack taste.

@Shibumi: Although, in all fairness, you might argue there is a difference between going to war with the possibility of dying (regardless of its actual chance), and going to war with the sole purpose of dying. Perhaps.

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Originally Posted by Samurai Waki

Yes... except for all that sectarian violence going on in Iraq-- suicide bombers have been doing a waaay better job at killing each other than American Bombs.

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But then, American bombs has killed more people than suicide bombers.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

I think the reason is three-fold.

1. Most people are a little scared of death (the great unknown) and rather enjoy their existence here and now. The concept of someone seeking self-destruction when not in agonizing pain or the like is quite foreign and off-putting.

2. Most people are also angered at the covert nature of it. For all their stealthy qualities, the smart weapons et al used by US forces and some of our allies are used in more or less overt fashion -- in declared bombing campaigns and the like. You are not doomed simply because you got on bus X rather than the bus following 10 minutes later. Which is not to say that ending up dead because the bomb missed or blew up too near where you were is truly expected, but that you don't wander around always wondering if the smart bomb is coming.

3. The idea of deliberately targeting the unarmed/innocent angers many people. "Collateral damage" is so titled because those victims, while no less dead or injured, were not the intended target.

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1. If people understand the value of life, they should really endevour to understand what make people strap on bombs even more.

2. That point is laughable at best. A suicide bomber is more covert than a bomb out of a blue sky?

3. Ah, see, here you are very very wrong. A US bomb killing someone in a dictatorship is killing an innocent. Whereas a terrorist striking someone in a democracy is targeting the power base, the voter. Get the difference?

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Smart bombs weren't so smart in the first war with Iraq... as proven by the US auditors.

And even now plenty of occassions have these smart bombs blowing up markets, weddings and other groups of people. So quite frankly you can be killed for just having fun, being yourself and partaking in life, be it by a poorly trained brainwashed kid with a bomb vest, or by a highly trained one with a game controller and a predator drone.

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Agreed, those "smart" bombs have gone all over the place.

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Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny

Collateral damage.

I love that term. It seems to imply that the deaths; while real enough for the people who are part of the "toll"; were not intended. You drop bombs, they explode, ppl die; it is impossible to claim that the actor did not "intend" for ppl to die.

As to the article, it is slanted, biased and patently one sided. Like most journalism it's written for a target audience. Best read side by side with a similar article from the local paper of your choice.

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agreed.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Don't shoot rockets from urban area's if collateral damage makes you a sad panda, I couldn't care less

the heart of the problem;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu6Ond1ESq8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLKk...eature=related from 10:00

^ perfectly normal tv

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The thing I dislike about your posts, is that you so often are well informed, whereas at the same time so often are not. At times you are spot on, at other times not.

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Originally Posted by Hax

@Shibumi: Although, in all fairness, you might argue there is a difference between going to war with the possibility of dying (regardless of its actual chance), and going to war with the sole purpose of dying. Perhaps.

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Absolutely, it would be way more noble (not to mention stupid) to go to war with the intent of dying. However, I just fail to see the difference between an American child having his parents urging him to join the ROTC, who then join the marine corps, sit in a helicopter and spray bullets in urban areas - to a child who grows up to strap on a bomb and decide to die for his country.

I do not support either. Would you?

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Absolutely, it would be way more noble (not to mention stupid) to go to war with the intent of dying. However, I just fail to see the difference between an American child having his parents urging him to join the ROTC, who then join the marine corps, sit in a helicopter and spray bullets in urban areas - to a child who grows up to strap on a bomb and decide to die for his country.

I do not support either. Would you?

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Any form of glorification of violence, and indeed murder, is to be shunned as far as I'm concerned.

And on todays episode of critical thinking 101

It's not about the damage the suicide bomber does, it's the pshycology behind the act itself

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

And here I thought - it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country.

Your post lack taste.

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My post lacks taste, or my posts lack taste?

Regardless, going to war is risking death, blowing yourself up is suicide. While the point has been somewhat obscurred in modern warfare - war is not about dying, or killing the enemy, it is about winning. That can be done without a single injury, though it is very difficult.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Dar es-Salaam?

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...has not been repeated, which is my point. Meanwhile, Gerry Adams, terrorist par excellence is Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, they've never been able to pin anything on him - including being at Bloody Sunday.

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...has not been repeated, which is my point. Meanwhile, Gerry Adams, terrorist par excellence is Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, they've never been able to pin anything on him - including being at Bloody Sunday.

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But you said that al-Qaeda has not been able to repeatedly do terrorist stuff?

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Originally Posted by Shibumi

Absolutely, it would be way more noble (not to mention stupid) to go to war with the intent of dying. However, I just fail to see the difference between an American child having his parents urging him to join the ROTC, who then join the marine corps, sit in a helicopter and spray bullets in urban areas - to a child who grows up to strap on a bomb and decide to die for his country.

I do not support either. Would you?

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That's not the point. To not protect yourself against the wolves is foolish, I submit to go out looking for the wolves is equally as foolish but it is what my country choose to do.

The people you are talking about are animals. A USMC private who did the most tame things these terrorists do to their OWN people would be shamed and sent to prison. And that would happen had he done it to the enemy.

That is the difference.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

That's not the point. To not protect yourself against the wolves is foolish, I submit to go out looking for the wolves is equally as foolish but it is what my country choose to do.

The people you are talking about are animals. A USMC private who did the most tame things these terrorists do to their OWN people would be shamed and sent to prison. And that would happen had he done it to the enemy.

That is the difference.

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He will never understand the difference nor does he wish to understand the difference because he is so blinded by his own hatred and naivete.

This hatred leads to his defense of a reprehensible and vile act. How about we look at intent. Smart bombs going off and killing civilians is collateral damage. Collateral damage is unintended. Walking into a busy Baghdad bazaar with three american soldiers and a hundred Iraqi citizens and blowing up some c4 strapped to your chest is not the same.

Violence is on a scale of depravity and evil just like any other human act and intention means a hell of a lot. Not to mention the fact that most of those suicide bombers are not dying for their country they die for a misguided and twisted view of their own faith.