Thrace - An Interesting Faction

We all know that Thrace will be an interesting faction to play as in Historical Rome Total War.. But in 280 B.C. Thrace was going through a chaotic time..

I have done some quick skim research on Thrace during our time period.. Just one year before our game begins Lysimachus was killed in the battle of Corupedium.. Now his Kingdom went briefly to Ptolemy II Ceraunus.. However before he was able to gain control of the kingdom he was killed when the Celts invaded..

Ok, how are we going to set this up?

First, I want to apologize for proposing that Thrace should be a "Barbarian Faction", I now realize they were a Hellenic Kingdom with many Thracian Tribes Surrounding it..

So, now on to business..

Who is the Leader of Thrace in our game?
What is their starting position when we release beta?

Also I believe some of you have proposed this but I will bring it up again..

The Army should be composed mainly of Phalangites for heavy infantry.. lots of light skirmishers, for instance they skirmish but can also hold their own in melee.. light infantry similar to Bastarnae (even though they should have a different name than that) some warband troops.. and here is my propsal.. there were many tribes in the area so why not have Getai Spearmen etc. give a unit for each major tribe and use it for AOR.. I can add some cavalry in there as well maybe archers.. but im not a military historian (want to be) im just a guy who knows some basic stuff on each faction..

Please, give your thoughts because every faction is equally important in our mod:)

***UPDATED 1/14/11***
Once again Thrace is a question. I read through many books and came up with a solid answer..

Lysimachus was killed in 281 BC, Ptolemy Ceraunus took over. Lysimachus' title of his Kingdom was "The Kingdom of Thrace-Macedonia" as he controlled both Kingdoms.

So Ptolemy Ceraunus is essentially the Faction Leader.
They would own
Pella
Thessalonica
Lysimachia
Smyrna
Seutopolis
and some others

They would be a Hellenic Kingdom. However, what about the Thracians? Meaning the various tribes? Should we combine them with the Dacians or not? This will be one tough faction to deal with

Well we should make them start the game with some really and stuff, like low public order

Bastarnae wasn't light infantry. It was heavy Shock infantry, made up from the Bastarnae tribe, Germanic guys with lots of foreign influences.
For a base of the Thracian faction, i propose this unit pack: http://rtw.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/f...9&tn=7976&st=9
Altough i can create them more detailed and propably more historical accurate. But Subrosa did a very good job tough.

Thracians are my favorit faction in vannila,mainly becouse the barbarico-civilized type of roster
I think that Valkar is right and that we shoud use Subrosa's pack for alpha,but later I coud play around with thrace a bit....:yes:
Also,I think we shoud give them companion cavalry.

I would be glad to help you with Thrace. Actually, Thrace was one of my favo vanilla faction, after Germania :D
But we shouldn't give Thrace Hetairoi. The Hetairoi was a elite cavalry corpse composed of only macedonians. The Thracians must have Prodromoi, their own elite Light cavalry.
For now:

Falxmen
Phalanx Pikeman (Pezhetairos)
Levy pikeman
Light Skimishers
Elite (Arganian) Skirmishers
Rompaioros (Thracian Shock Infantry)
Prodromoi (Elite Light cavalry)
Thracian Skirmish Cavalry)
Thracian nobles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valkar

I would be glad to help you with Thrace. Actually, Thrace was one of my favo vanilla faction, after Germania :D
But we shouldn't give Thrace Hetairoi. The Hetairoi was a elite cavalry corpse composed of only macedonians. The Thracians must have Prodromoi, their own elite Light cavalry.
For now:

Falxmen
Phalanx Pikeman (Pezhetairos)
Levy pikeman
Light Skimishers
Elite (Arganian) Skirmishers
Rompaioros (Thracian Shock Infantry)
Prodromoi (Elite Light cavalry)
Thracian Skirmish Cavalry)
Thracian nobles.

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Good list,maybe we coud use my thracian peltast skin?

I agree in using Subrosa's pack and giving them Prodromoi (the Macedonians need to use them too)... And I think that Thracian Skirmishers, Bastarnae, Agrianians should be in the AOR.

Well were missing one thing, should we give them militia hoplites or warbands or some barboi-hoplite-milita?

good work valkar.. we will definitely use it in beta for sure.. ive tried to get a hold of Private Clark, Sub Rosa, and Andalus but they have been gone for some time.. I'm really impessed by thier skins.. we really only have two things left.. finish the reskins and change cultures..

I can make those skins to if u want.

well if they are downloadable its easier that way.. by the way I PMd you on TWC the other day.. did you get it?

UPDATED OP

What can i say...

1. The celtic invasion STARTED in 280 BC! So, the thracians have a really hard time! Don't know how exactly are you thinking to make the invasions, it may just be a big gaul army in there made with a script.
2. They came in a hard moment for the thracians - they just made it out of being Macedonian protectorate, they didn't had much of an army.
3. If you want me to make the units then find me a single evidence that thracians used pikes. The ONLY real problem for the thracians was the constant lack of heavy infantry. They had heavy cavalry, they wore THE skirmishers on the Balkans - no one was that good. They had scithian influence, celtic influence and even somewhat german influence. They rocked. Why did they never made it to the top you'll ask? Easy answer - internal conflicts, and bad neighbors - first the macedonian kingdom, then the celts and in the end - the romans. One after another in less then 20 years between them. No one could stand against that!
4. Thracian nobles wore strongly hellenized by the beginning of the 3rd century BC. But their population was still somewhat barbaric. If we keep the bosporians and don't add an new culture by that time, i personally will create a helenic/barbarian culture if i have to. (since we have two culture slots free i think i may start the research from now :D)

that is it in a nutshell, i think. Oh, yeah, the King in that moment is: Raizdos. Who died (or was killed) 10 years after and Cotys III gained the throne.

Should we make Thrace a Hellenic Kingdom but also can recruit native Thracian skirmishers? Meaning Macedonian units to represent the kingdom and skirmishers and cavalry to represent the later thracians? maybe we script in a reform or something? or give the player the option to stay hellenic or become more barbarian.. Bosporans and Thrace could share same culture slot

Man, what can i say, that you understand at last. THEY HAD NO MACEDONIAN UNITS!
Only the nobility, and mostly the high nobility was hellenized. They adopted GREEK equipment, meaning mostly leg protection, helmets, the hoplite spear (i have forgotten it's name), even muscular breastplate and lien armor. But again only the rich could afford that and there wasn't many rich thracians. That is the reson why they didn't have heavy infantry, excluding MAYBE some noble infantry regiments. And they fought in normal phalanx if they even used a trained formation.

Yes, they had the fearsome romphaia-men (romphaia is the southern sister of the flax. the only real difference is that the romphaia is not curved) but they wore shock troops with no real protection. Just as vanilla flaxmen. Honestly thracians somewhat resembled the middle age europe in that way - everyone that had money was riding. You run away more easy on a horse. As i said - i haven't read a single piece of research that suggested that thracians had heavy infantry that they could amass. And certainly NO PHALANGITES!

I do understand that, but what about the Hellenic Kingdom of Thrace??? What are we going to do with them? Rebels or what? It was still around after Lysimachus died. Ptolemy Ceraunus was in charge.. I'm talking about what we should do with them.. I know the Thracians didnt use phalangites :)

No such thing in my books. Only the odrissy kingdom, that was a THRACIAN kingdom with HELENIZED nobility. Where the hell did you read about the thracians?
PS: If you ask about the Greek Colonies - they wore more insignificant than the 20+ minor thracian tribes that we know of. They wore there just to give people excuse to do war. (that last one is a joke. But in truth they didn't had any military strength and wore influenced by athens, macedon, thrace, or whoever had the upper hand in the constant struggle.

Ah ok!! Well I give the break down as simply as I can. After Alexander died the Diadochi took over right? Well we all know about Ptolemy, and Seleucus, and Antigonus. But there was another, Lysimachus. When the empire was divided up, Lysimachus received Thrace. Anyways he minded his own business, allying with Ptolemy and Seleucus to defeat Usurpers to the Macedonian Throne, such as Demetrius. Around 285 BC he allied his "Hellenic Kingdom of Thrace" with Pyrrhus of Epirus, and went with a joint invasion of Demetrius and Macedon. Pyrrhus recieved some troops and western territories out of the deal, and Lysimachus received all of Macedon to add on to his current hellenistic kingdom, which included the majority of Thrace, except the northern more stubborn tribes, and some vital cities in Asia Minor.

Well it gets complicated but he married Arsinoe 30 years before and they had 3 children. Arsinoe was the daughter of Ptolemy and the half sister of PTOLEMY CERAUNUS. He was a very sneaky man. Arsinoe wanted her sons to gain the throne after Lysimachu's death and teamed with Ceraunus (which means thunderbolt). They convince the old man Lysimachus that his oldest son, a Military genius and the faction heir named Agathocles was planning to take the throne. Lysimachus killed him. They then go to Seleucus and tell him that Lysimachus has gone mad, killing his own son. Seleucus then goes to face Lysimachus at the battle of Corupedium. There Seleucus killed Lysimachus face to face. Later that night (Ceraunus had was in Seleucus camp as an ally) Ceraunus kills Seleucus before he could cross over and take Macedon. Ptolemy Ceraunus then rushes like mad hell over to Lysimachea and crowns himself the King of the Kingdom of Thrace and Macedon. His realm included: All of Macedon, most of Thrace, and some key cities along te coast of Asia Minor. The date was 281 BC

So hameleona, there you have it. This is what is keeping me from going forward. Thrace at the time of our mod was a Hellenic Kingdom that recruited Phalangites and other Macedonian troops. The Thracians were around, but they were only independent in their northern most holdings.

HOWEVER, this Kingdom was short lived. Ptolemy Ceraunus was killed and beheaded by the Invading Celtic hordes (later Galatians and Tylis founders) so his Kingdom was lost, and the native Thracians regained their homeland from the Macedonians. (279 BC)

I suggest we begin the game as Thrace being a hellenic kingdom, Ptolemy Ceraunus as the faction leader, but they have a horde of celts by Pella and Thessalonica.. A battle is inevitable. THE PLAYER would control Thraces destiny, and they should have the option to stay hellenic, or go back to Thracian roots. This is where the religion feature will come into effect! We can go into details later, and if you need sources for what i listed, I have tons of books supporting my statements and I'll gladly type out wor for word what they say

First o all, that is NOT Hellenic Kingdom of Thrace, this is Lysimachus Kingdom. Two totally different things. And he is dead in 280BC anyway. Why bother. Odrisse declared independence quickly after his death... only to be overrun by the celts, that droved them out for a while, and 60 years of wars later - thracians wore the sole rulers of thrace. And then the romans came...

And further to kill the slightest theory, that such thing as hellenic kingdom of thrace existed - odryssian kings wore something of a vassals to Philip, Alexander and all the other after them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seuthes_III
Subjected... as strongly as the romans subjected the iberians. Hell, killing macedonians, greeks and... well, any other that may have some coins was the national sport of thrace.

So what do we do with Ptolemy Ceraunus and his kingdom?

he ruled macedonia and ptolemic kingdom or just macedon? Anyway - He did not rule thrace.

But you know what? The period that you chose for starting date is great! In the middle of the wars. Good luck with getting it all done as it should be. That is what you get when you go for historical fanaticism.

I rather do that though. If I didn't want to I would leave RTW the way it was.
And it is a great date, so many things can come of it.

I understand the whole thing about wanting game play. But this is Historical Rome Total War. It's based off history. Yeah I'm a history fanatic and I'm proud that I am. I want this mod to be about history. If it affects the game play, I really don't care. I know in my own mind that game will not just take forever to play. I think Europa Barborum did a great job with their history, but just added so much realism that many people didn't like it. However EB is a huge mod! Look how many people love playing it? Same goes for RTR. I want HRTW to be similar to that but with it's own unique taste and by keeoing the vanilla feel. So yeah, with Thrace? I want it to come down to every historical detail, to show whoever plays this mod, what was happening at that time, and how would they alter the course of history? So yeah, History over game play. If I can't have both, I must choose one, and I choose History.

Good Luck then. And farewell :)

Thank you. I'm sorry that we never agree on anything.
Anyways, back to business. Did some quick research and found this:
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingLi...eeceThrace.htm

The Lysimachean Empire and Odrysian Kingdom co-existed with the Lysimachean Empire having authority.

So this is what we should do for Thrace in a nutshell in 280 BC:
Name: Thrace
Culture:Helleno-Barbaric

Essentially it would be a mixture of Macedonian and Thracian troops, the player could have two alternative routes to choose from. Whether it be a more hellenic path, or native Thracian path. It would be up to the player to decide. So there we have it, we can get into details later when we start making factions.

Why don't we just call it -"The Odrysian Kingdom of Thrace "...That sound good and it is historicaly acurrate...

Culture is ok and so are the troops.

A come on hameleona,don't give up on us ?

The problem with that, is it takes away from the hellenic aspect. That's why I propose Thrace. Unless we make two separate factions..

OR we make Ptolemy Ceraunus and the hellenic Thracians, rebels and make a faction called The Odrysian Kingdom.. that wiould probably be easiest

Would actually make more sense, since he was doomed. And since such thing as hellenic thracians (in the way you understand it) does not exist.

PS: @Asgaroth - yes, i do. I'm done working on meaningless stuff, just cuz "it's historical!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!".

The confusion here is simply that you're using Thrace to mean two different things. ahowl11 has it right when he says that basically we have to decide which Thrace to represent.

Predictably, I support the barbarian Thracians. :P I do not know the history of this area at all, but from what I've read here, it seems that they might be a more interesting faction. Plus, they more or less represent Bulgaria, which is in my opinion a plus. Why? Because then we appeal more to Bulgarian players! I'm pretty sure most Bulgarians would rather play as free barbarians than as slaves to the Greeks. The same argument goes for the Gauls, Germans, Britons, Dacians - rather than just having one tribe which stands for one or two regions, represent the whole people, and thereby appeal to more players from those areas today, wherever possible, since we could never accurately represent these peoples with a single tribe anyway.

Well, the truth is, that ahowl, is just blindly following what the greek historians wrote for the time. Anyone, who have read a single text from greeks about thracians knows that they hated them. An yes, Lysimachus probably had them as a vassal state. But, well in one point of Bulgarian history, Simeon I called the great titeled himself as ruler of bulgarians and greeks. That does not meant that there was Bulgarian state of Byzantium. That is what i hate in the diadochi wars - everything we know is written by GREEKS!!! Some times we find evidence, that they wore not that much of something, and their rule was limited and with constant rebellions. That they didn't really ruled the territories they claimed. But no, "if its written it is true". And that is how "historical" mods are born.

Predictably, I support the barbarian Thracians. :P I do not know the history of this area at all, but from what I've read here, it seems that they might be a more interesting faction. Plus, they more or less represent Bulgaria, which is in my opinion a plus. Why? Because then we appeal more to Bulgarian players! I'm pretty sure most Bulgarians would rather play as free barbarians than as slaves to the Greeks. The same argument goes for the Gauls, Germans, Britons, Dacians - rather than just having one tribe which stands for one or two regions, represent the whole people, and thereby appeal to more players from those areas today, wherever possible, since we could never accurately represent these peoples with a single tribe anyway.

It is true...Hey but no Illyrians ?,who will be on the lands of Croatia ?

EVERYONE!
GO to the faction list thread and I believe most of you will be happy.

I will simply say this. Britons are in, Dacians are out,
Illyrians are in!
Thrace? Will be known as the Odrysian Kingdom... YA THAT"S RIGHT. I WAS WRONG. The kingdom actually co-existed and was really only allied with the Lysimachean Empire. They were basically independent. So yes we have an actual Thracian faction.

I hope everyone is finally happy with the factions.

One thing though. No Nabataeans. They simply were only herders and shepherds at this time

Can't stop myself telling you:

Told ya :p

No Nabateans?In 1.0 or 2.0?

And the Thracian Phalanks was unhistorical?
Too bad...:(

Sorry Skull but yes you are right on both

We shoud reconsider the Nabatean thingy...
They make the game much more intresting...coud be hoarding somewhere...?
We shuod start a new thread about that...:)

Well, i figured, if i do the units for my Barbarian mod, why not give them to you?
We will start with the thracian peltasts. Other possible name is Tribal Peltast.

Attachment 3444

(ps. see? They have grass :lol:)

Good work hameleona...Me and you will start doing units soon.We just need to see what greek faction are we going to use.

wait a minute. i'm going to give you a little piece of important info on the difference between the Thracian Peltast and Javelinmen. Firstly Peltasts were Light MELEE Infantry that threw javelins before charging. Most peltasts were armed with spears as a weapon for melee, but Elite and Mercenary Peltasts used swords (mostly machaira). Javelinmen were missile troops, they entered the fray rarely. A little later I'm going to post a lot more info on the Thracian armies, but not now as homework is calling me. :(

Well, i'm here just to help with this and that. Mostly, cuz it will help my own mod idea. I am a game-play guy - i don't see the meaning in making things 100% historical (should i say they CAN NOT BE 100%... maybe one can achieve 60 at best) and forgetting about game-play. So, i wont do the units as i did - quick and classy. I'm just the type of guy, that can not work on something that he does not like. And a mod with so many similar factions is not for me.

PS: TwoKnifes, Thracians INVENTED the peltast unit. I believe that i know my thracians, thanks. Have some quite good books by Fol (if you know the name) and once you go trough the tons of terms they give a lot of information. 10x anyway.

Ok, i didn't had much work tonight, so the first line of infantry - the tribal axemen.

Attachment 3447

Historical background about the two units till now:


Thracians are famous for many things, and not all of them pretty. Althou the Odrissy did got their ruling class hellenized quickly, the normal thracian did not adopt much of the greek ways. Most of the armies of the kingdom wore recruited from the subjected/allied tribes, that kept their way of life. And the most common way of fighting for them was the skirmish. Thracian peltast (both light and heavy, not that the ancients made a big difference between them) wore prized as the best on the Balkans, and (since we are talking about the greek sources) even in the whole world. With the development of the warfare, the tribal peltast lost part of their valor - heavier troops wore more efficient as skirmishers, and their low-tech spears had problems with the increasing armor of their more civilized enemies. Some tribes evolved, but most continued the old way of fighting - the pelta shield, several javelins and a knife or crude axe for melee fighting, and the typical cape of hard wool (that remained in use from the mountain (and not only) people in these lands until 18yh century AD) that kept them safe from low-velocity projectiles. Cheep troops with few good points - they had decent morale and wore masters of ambushes and hiding.

The huge amount of axes found in their lands speaks of wide military use of the weapon. So it is logical, that there was some sort of Axe-welding unit. And that is why i made the thracian axeman.

Quote:

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Well, i'm here just to help with this and that. Mostly, cuz it will help my own mod idea.

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ok.

Quote:

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the tribal axemen.

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Great unit.

Sorry hameleona, I didn't make myself clear enough. What I meant is that IN Thracian armies the javelinmen and peltasts were different units. Thracians used both. Also i do not doubt you knowledge about Thrace, so don't worry about that. However I shall post here all my knowledge about Thracian armies.

Infantry:

The main infantry in Thracian armies was the peltast. Before the fourth century BC, they were very lightly armored thus, looking almost the same as javeinmen. Back then they were different from the javelinmen only because they fought in melee. However in the fourth century BC Greeks and Macedonians started hiring them as mercenaries, because of their awesome fighting skills. Like that they were getting richer and richer, and they could buy better equipment. In the third century BC there were two "types" of peltasts; the heavy ones, which were the Elite Peltasts and the light ones, which were more common.

Heavy/Elite Peltasts :

They wore a mail shirt, had an oval light shield, were armed with two or three javelins, a shortsword, mostly with a machaira, or a long sword, a rhomphaia (similar to the falx, but a little bit shorter and less curved)

Light/Common Peltasts:

They looked like the one posted by hameleona. They used a spear in melee.


The other infantrymen of the Thracian armies, were warriors form the Bastarnae tribes. On how they looked like, I got no idea, unless if vanilla represents them correctly, which i highly doubt.

Missiles:

Javelinmen:

The main missile troops in Thracian armies were the javelinmen. Lightly armored, they wore a peltarion shield for protection. they were poor and couldn't afford quality equipment. For melee they used a knife. However when it came to javelin throwing they were very skilled, thus a needed component in Thracian armies. They look like the https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/im...a_vHkqkOSEjfWA the guy in the link

Slingers:

Yes, slingers were in Thracian armies. They were the poorest members though, and not used often. They did not carry a shield, but wore clothes made of the skin of a fox. Basically they look like velites with slings. They used daggers for melee.

Archers:

Archers were not very common in Thracian armies. They were usually of Scythian/Sarmanitan origins. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/image?
img=Perseus:image:1992.11.0057 They looked like the ones in the image. Not very clear so I'll give you a short description. They used a composite bow, and a knife for melee. Their armor was made by leather and was typical Sarmantian armor. Sometimes made by humans skin, as it was a Sarmantian custom to get the skins of the dead enemies and use them as clothing.

Cavalry:

Cavalry made up 40% (!) of the Thracian army. Most of the cavalry was light. Light cavalry before the 4th century BC had no shield, and had only two javelins and a spear for melee combat. However by the 4th century, they were hired as mercenaries by Alexander, and they became richer and could get better equipment. By the third century BC they had an oval shield, the two javelins, they used a long sword and sometimes a Sarissa. Light cavalry of the northern regions had bows, due to the influence of the Sarmantians. They look like Light Lancers/ Prodmoi with a shield and javelins.

Heavy cavalry was not common. The king and his bodyguard were heavy cavalry and were armored in Greek fashion before the 3rd century BC. However by the 3rd century BC they dressed up in more of a Thracian fashion. While they kept the Greek-like breast plates, they wore a Thracian helmet and used the peltarion shield or sometimes an oval shield. They used the kopis and a spear for melee.

That's all my information. It is not complete, and I'm sure that hameleona could complete it, but better safe than sorry.

Well almost the same thing as i know. We just had a difference with the peltast. So, sorry, for my arrogance.

Actually, since we make the odryssian kingdom, they did have a lot of hellenic influence - even had small amounts of hoplites. Also the Romphaia units, and the swordsmen. And since they had a lot of skirmishing units - there will be a lot of javelin infantry. Also, with the March of Time, they will get a cohort unit (they did adopt roman equipment quickly - probably cuz it suited their way of combat nicely). Also, the peltast i have posted above is the tribal peltast, so an lightly armored one (helmet and leg protection) will be made soon (tomorrow, i'm home from a birthday party now :lol:), also they did use slings A LOT! Weren't the best slingers, but a decent ones.

They had heavy cavalry too, but i don't really know, how ahowl will go with the odrissy. Getai are famost for their Scythian influence, probably even kinship, and the odrissy did take over the south Getic tribes in some point (quite probably even over the north ones) so i'll be doing an horse archer too. And heavy cavalry. I don't know if i should make another unit of javrlin cavalry - the greek one suits them fine, but no one knows.

Ok, i may lose a little of the flow of words, so, i'll just post what i'll do:

Barracks:
Tire 0: Tribal Peltast
Tire 1: Tribal Axemen.
Tire 2: Thracian Swordsmen (mahaira, shield and some armor)/Thracian Cohort (legionaries. Replaces the Swordsmen after the Marian reforms)
Tire 3: Romphaia Welders (flax men, but maybe with some basic armor)
Tire 4: Nobles (basically a hoplite unit)
Tire 5: nothing

Ranged:
Tire 1: Thracian peltast (the one from TwoKnifes picture)
Tire 2: Thracian slingers (vanilla, reskined), Thracian Archers
Tire 3: Heavy peltasts (vanilla)
Tire 4: Still considering. Maybe another peltast or archer unit.

Cavalry:
Tire 1: Greek Cavalry (vanilla)
Tire 2: Thracian cavalry (medium skirmishing cavalry)
Tire 3: Getic Cavalry (horse archers)
Tire 4: Noble Cavalry (heavy cavalry)

I accept ideas and stuff so - go ahead ;)

It's ok hameleona and happy birthday!! Now let's go with the roster:

Infantry:

Tier 0: Light/Tribal Peltast (Tribal sounds cooler) Weakest unit, looks like the one hameleona made, has a spear, so it is good against cavalry, it was so even in real life as they were combined with cavalry often to defeat the enemy cavalry, but weak vs infantry especially the heavy ones. Good ambushers, so they get a bonus in woods. Lightly armored so missiles will slaughter them, unless they are attacked by the shield side or the front. They throw the javelins before charging.

Tier 1: Tribal Axemen Stronger unit, but weak vs cavalry, average vs infantry. They are good ambushers too (most light infantryman are so is it really needed to point it out) so they get bonus in woods. Missiles have the same effect on them like with the Tribal Peltast.

Tier 2: Rhomphaia wielders/ Rhomphaiamen Basically similar to the falxmen, but don't have a very big bonus vs cavalry as the rhomphaia was shorter. Still average vs cavalry average vs infantry. Missiles cut these down though since they don't even have a shield

Tier 3: Heavy Peltasts Armored with a mail shirt, peltarion or oval shield (add whichever to them, it will be accurate in both cases) machaira and two javelins which they throw before the charge. They are average vs cavalry (due to the lack of spear) and strong vs infantry. Due to their heavy armor missiles have a harder time on killing them.

Tier 4: Foot Nobles/Hoplites and Legionary like Thracian unit after reforms if any

Tier 5: nothing

Missiles:

Tier 1 : Slingers this was a hard decision. Although javelinmen were richer, they were more common than slingers thus easier to recruit. However I decided to make slingers tier 1 since it would shame the reputation of the javelinman among the Thracians. Oh and slinger projectiles should be armor piercing. I have made a sling myself (which is not a very good one) and it can make a hole in a piece of wood or rock that is like 50-100 meters away. Rome used auxiliary slingers to fight cataphracts because there was no other way to kill them in long range distances (except artillery which slowed armies down and was expensive). However their accuracy is horrible.

Tier 2: Javelinmen Now if we do not include the fact that javelinmen were short range, their spears hurt a lot more than arrows. Also they should be better than archers in melee because since they threw their missiles from a shorter distance they got in melee fights more often. Their accuracy is not that good though.

Tier 3: Archers Although as i pointed out earlier in some ways slingers and javelinmen, overall they were still better. So tier 3 for them.

Tier 4: Nothing


Cavalry:

Tier 1: Greek Cavalry

Tier 2: Thracian Cavalry Basically Light Lancers with shields and and javelins.

Tier 3: Getic Cavalry Horse archers

Tier 4: Noble Cavalry Heavy Cavalry

to save some work for hameleona, we can use these units as well.
http://rtw.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/f...9&tn=7976&st=9
Thracian Peltasts
Thracian Infantry
Bastarnae
Thracian Noble Cavalry

We can change their names up as well, but I want to use these units

We can use them, but read my post about the difference between the peltast and javeliman.

I did and I feel like we need both units

that was the point :). Now I can't wait to play as Thrace!

Well, ahowl, why use them, when i can make better? (yeah, i'm a show-off, i know)
TwoKnifes - Romphaia is shorter, mostly cuzz of the shorter grip. Or that is what historians in my country think. But we have not a single grip that survived the time, so - it can be shorter.

Some things, tho:

Vanilla treats peltast and javelinmen the same way, so they should be in the Ranged MIC. That is why i have made Thracian Swodsmen. ;)
Thracians quickly adopted roman arms and armor and even fighting stile. Not to mention, that by that time, the odrissy kingdom was much more of a kingdom, than of a tribal league. So i think they should be in the middle, not in the top of the units. :)

PS: Peltast by a definition is a skirmishing unit, that throws spears and is able to fight in melee. First peltast in the Balkans wore the thracians and they used spears, yes. (reminder - to remove the knife of the tribal peltast and to add spear). The problem with classifying them is from the moment (around Alexanders time and after), when Greeks started calling every mercenary unit "peltast".

Thracian Horse Archers...:-O

Macedonians are FINISHED!

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Originally Posted by TwoKnives

Now I can't wait to play as Thrace!

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If you can make better units be my guest

Well not ELITE horse archers Skull, simple horse archers. They won't be very good once they run out of arrows.

Tribal Peltast v1.2

Attachment 3453

Hope you like it ;)

@hameleona Nice unit. It looks pretty cool. But, for the sake of game-play (and a little bit of the historical accuracy) i say we put the peltasts in the infantry category. You may ask why did i add the "historical accuracy part". Because although when peltasts were hired by the Greeks they main role was skirmishing until the 2nd century BC, in their own armies they played the role of melee infantry. So to represent them correctly we should make them work like the legionaries:

Start Running--->Stop--->Throw Javelins--->Charge

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Originally Posted by TwoKnives

Well not ELITE horse archers Skull, simple horse archers. They won't be very good once they run out of arrows.

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Yes,I know.

@hameleona - Fantastic!

started making the thracian swordsmen unit. Actually, i think that this will be a great base for the thracian noble cavalry too.

https://img252.imageshack.us/img252/...nswordsmen.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

It looks excellent hameleona...

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Actually, i think that this will be a great base for the thracian noble cavalry too.

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I think that also.Just with a little different helmet.

:fainting: