The March of Time - A Stainless Steel 6.4 hotseat

https://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6986/asdezk.jpg
(graphics by Myth)

Welcome to The March of Time, a hotseat campaign in the Stainless Steel 6.4 early campaign, using Savage AI and with real recruitment disabled.

Public diplomacy can be conducted in the courtroom thread.

The game will be played with 15 human players as follows:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. Venice - slysnake
2. Sicily - Myth
3. Genoa - Ignoramus RIP turn 7
4. Denmark - RexLegend
5. Fatimid Caliphate - phonicsmonkey
6. Cumans - Rougeman
AI. France (formerly LooseCannon1)
7. England - Zim
8. Poland - Gaius Octavius Caesar
AI. Byzantine Empire (formerly Ezilkannan) RIP - turn 9
9. Moors - Nightbringer
10. Lithuania - Nigel
11. Kievan Rus - Mithridate
AI. Norway (formerly deguerra) RIP - turn 6
AI (but skipped). Khwarezm (formerly Silvershield)

Players should observe the following rules while playing the game:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Battles may be fought or auto-resolved at the players' discretion.

No reloading the save to create a different outcome.

Each player has 48 hours to complete his turn, post the save game to this thread and alert the next player in line by private message. If the deadline is missed the Admin may skip his faction or he can be subbed by an ally. Extensions will be granted on reasonable request.

Do not recruit General's Bodyguard units. These may only be created by adoption, marriage, natural birth or man of the hour.

Do not attack ships in ports.

Armies boarding ships in ports can't stay there for more than one turn.

Don't leave blockaded ports without beating the blockading ships first.

Do not exploit the naval movement bug (to avoid this always select your navy by clicking on the ship on the campaign map and not by selecting the unit cards.)

Don't stack merchants in armies or forts to get more than one to stand on the same resource (Merchant Fort)

No surrounding armies or agents to destroy them, either by occupying the tiles around the army or agent or by deliberately blocking all exit routes from the province in question. An escape route must always be left for a retreating army, except where that army has arrived by boat and has no contiguous friendly territory to escape into. (Surround & Destroy)

Don't use repeated offers for bribe to increase your faction leader's dread.

Enable "Unlimited men on battlefield" in order to not abuse when leading battles vs the AI.

Armies that are defeated in battle by a player that comes after them in the turn list may not move the following turn. This is to make it fair for people who are defeated by players that come before them in the turn list, and thus lose all their movement points

Armies that are defeated in battle may not be attacked on the following turn, as they are banned from moving, either by the game mechanics or by the rule above. They must be allowed to move first, or must be reinforced. If the defeated army retreats to a settlement or fort, this rule does not apply.

In order to assist with the observance of these rules, please post the list of defeated armies in the game thread when uploading the save for the next player.

Ballistas can't open anything, catapults can open wooden walls, trebuchets or better can open anything.

Assassins are allowed to target anyone except family members but players are limited to one assassination or sabotage attempt per turn. It must be the first action they do, before they spend money or do anything else. If a successful assassination or sabotage is questioned by a player the game admin will load the relevant save and attempt the assassination. If the results are different there will be penalties for cheating.

Spies may infiltrate cities to open the gates as well as perform other spying actions but players are limited to one attempt per turn. It must be the first action they do, before they spend money or do anything else, OR the second action if they are also attempting an assassination / sabotage in the same turn. If a successful spying attempt is questioned by a player the game admin will load the relevant save and attempt the action. If the results are different there will be penalties for cheating.

No crusades or jihads to be called or joined.

No buildings to be destroyed for cash under any circumstances.

No trading of provinces solely to receive free troops. If you trade provinces, make sure they have no garrison prior to the exchange.

No deliberate deals that would put you in debt above -10,000 florins

No making vassals of AI-controlled factions.

Due to the Kwaz player leaving the game there are now special rules concerning that faction:

It is forbidden to interact with the Kwaz in any way - they should be considered to be not a part of the game at all and their territories are not part of the map.

So, no-one can take any of their lands or attack any of their armies or agents. No diplomatic deals are allowed with the Kwaz including trade rights and map swaps.

Exceptions:

- if their armies and agents are in your lands you may attack and destroy them.
- if your victory conditions include territories currently held by the Kwaz you may take them and any territories along the way, but only if your other victory conditions have already been satisfied.

If there are any questions about the rules please ask the admin before playing the turn. In addition to the rules players are requested to abide by the spirit of the game and avoid exploiting the game mechanics on the campaign map to gain an unfair advantage. If a particular action is not specifically banned but is suspected to be an exploit please raise the issue in the thread before proceeding to play the turn. An extension will always be granted in this circumstance.

Please note that there are considered to be no exploits on the battle map. Any and all actions on the battle map are permissible.

Grace period:

The first turn will be a grace period in order to give players the chance to organise their troops, cancel AI recruitment and construction and prepare for the battle ahead.

During the grace period, which will last one turn:

- Do not recruit troops, agents or hire mercenaries.
- Do not take any aggressive actions towards any human controlled faction, including agent actions.

The first save, for Venice, is attached to this thread.

Enjoy the game!

The problem with not taking aggressive actions vs the Ai is that some AI nations have stacks right next to or actually besieging human towns. The AI under such circumstances will never accept a ceasefire (and if it does, it will just break it when it gets to play its turn). For example, If I skip now the ERE will take one of my towns and possibly wipe out a full stack near it as well since it has siege equipment. The grace period IMO should apply to players only.

I would be agreeable to this as I have similar situations. If others are seriously opposed to this I will now force the issue though.

maybe a.i. armies can be attacked if its in a threatening position? like if its in range to attack a settlement or fort etc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rougeman

maybe a.i. armies can be attacked if its in a threatening position?

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Ok, let's make the grace period apply just to human factions.

Myth, the ERE is human controlled (Ezilkannan has them)! That means during the grace period he can't assault you but I think he should be able to maintain the siege if he wants to. After all you are first in the turn order so you'll have the drop on him once the grace period expires.

Anyone have a problem like this where the besieging human faction is before them in the turn order? Let me know and I'll make a ruling.

Agreed, this sounds reasonable.

Sicily Attachment 2805

i exchanged some words with Phonics. kinda made me thinking about the whole thing again. tho the way im thinking about all that remains i lastly am just punishing myself if i wasnt playing the game because of that so im back for kwarz. horse power all the way


i just checked the rules. the thing with just having one spy action per turn lastly makes opening gates kinda impossible. the chances for one spy opening the gates of anything are pretty slim. even two are seldom doing the trick already but two is better than one. so imo we are doing better if we limited it to two spy actions a turn at least

Welcome back Silver! I'll make the Kwaz playable when it comes to my turn.

As for the agent rules, they are intended to make reloading to create a different outcome impossible.

It's because of the way that random actions work in this game - the random seed is generated at the start of the turn NOT when you try the action, but before, which means if you perform an action, then reload and perform the exact same action it will have exactly the same outcome time and time again because it is using the same random seed which is not reset by reloading.

Then once you have performed that action a new random seed is created which determines the chance of the next action succeeding or failing.

So if you fail an action, then reload and try a different action first it will reset the seed and then you can try the original action again. In this way it's possible to, through trial and error, keep reloading and trying different actions in different combinations until you get the result you want.

Hence in my rules you have to do the assassination first and the spying action second at the very start of the turn, to ensure that reloading won't help you and that it can be independently verified. You are only allowed one of each to stop you from trying different ones in combination over and over.

Test it yourself if you like, to prove it works.

As for the spies opening the gates, this rule doesn't stop you putting more than one spy in a settlement, but it's going to take you at least one turn per spy to do it.

Which will slow the game down and make it difficult to break through defensive lines without siege equipment. This is exactly the outcome I'm looking for.

Everyone's castles and cities are developed enough to produce siege equipment, so I think this is ok.

Let me know if anyone disagrees but to be honest the only other way I would have it is to ban spies from opening the gates at all, because they are overpowered in the game and it's impossible to tell if someone is cheating by reloading or just very very lucky.

Nup, agree with the rule 100% phonics. Also thanks for the random seed explanation. I'd long suspected something similar was the case, but was never quite sure how it worked.

so do battles use a separate random seed. I have known agents work this way, but never been sure if their seed is separate from that for battles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nightbringer

so do battles use a separate random seed. I have known agents work this way, but never been sure if their seed is separate from that for battles.

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I'm not sure but it's easy to test. Just save, AR a battle, note the results. Then reload, try an agent action, the AR the same battle and see if the results are different.

Ya, that would work, if I were less lazy :) I was hoping someone else had already done that. I'll give it a try sometime in a SP game and post the results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nightbringer

Ya, that would work, if I were less lazy :) I was hoping someone else had already done that. I'll give it a try sometime in a SP game and post the results.

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Based on the reloading discussion over at TWC I would say it does work that way.

I should be clear too that if you have already infiltrated several cities or forts taking one turn at a time to do so, then you can definitely open all those gates in the same turn if the game will let you. The rule doesn't restrict that. Those odds are set for the particular turn and don't use the random seed in the same way as the spying attempts do.

1. Spies can open the gate on the same turn and it's happened about 30% of the time for me when I used to do that in SP. They are not that relevant now that we all have Trebuchets anyway.

2. There is much less leeway for the AR calculator, though it does vary as well. AR battles are linked with the random seed, it's one random seed for everything. However, the outcome for each action changes based on other actions done. So, for example, if you attempt to assasinate a character and fail, you can move another agent or an army, or fight a battle, and then try it, and this time the result will be different. It is possible for one to load many times untill they find a "winning" sequence of acitons that will let them succeed on a given random check.

I've had battles be close defeats, but then i've loaded and the only thing i've changed was I won another battle first, and then did the problematic one and presto - clear victory. This happens very rarely though. What I've noticed however, is that if your attacking general has Night Fighter, the odds of you winning the battle are much greater if you "flash" (select and deselect the NB icon) the night battle option. Don't ask me why, I have no idea. Overall though it's not possible to severly influence the autoreseolve results with loading - a stack of archers will never beat a stack of Dism. Chivalric Knights.

nvm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myth

the odds of you winning the battle are much greater if you "flash" (select and deselect the NB icon) the night battle option..

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This game is so weird and buggy, I have no idea why I spend so much time on it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myth

The problem with not taking aggressive actions vs the Ai is that some AI nations have stacks right next to or actually besieging human towns. The AI under such circumstances will never accept a ceasefire (and if it does, it will just break it when it gets to play its turn). For example, If I skip now the ERE will take one of my towns and possibly wipe out a full stack near it as well since it has siege equipment. The grace period IMO should apply to players only.

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You got a full stack right next to that settlement and you are before me in turn order. Like phonics said, I think you would be able to hit first and probably beat them back. I won't be assaulting the settlement since its against the rules, but I may continue the siege, since even if i drop it i wouldn't be able to move my stack away I think, as they are caught up near the settlement. :wall: :wall:

I have to assess the situation and then I'll approach ceratin players for diplomacy. You're welcome to do it as well. I usually cover my diplomacy prior to the start of the game but I have not had the time for this one.

I think at the present situation, I should be making deals with a lot of players (since I seem to be the only person at war with almost every single nation out there). I will be sending out diplomats and pms to some players, but I will keep it at war with some factions, just for fun :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ezilkannan

I think at the present situation, I should be making deals with a lot of players (since I seem to be the only person at war with almost every single nation out there). I will be sending out diplomats and pms to some players, but I will keep it at war with some factions, just for fun :P

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You should have seen what it was like taking on the Holy Romans in the 1200's for Wrath of Khan, I think my only allies when I started were the Moors and the only factions I were not at war with were the Russian factions to the far east and England I think lol..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slysnake

You should have seen what it was like taking on the Holy Romans in the 1200's for Wrath of Khan, I think my only allies when I started were the Moors and the only factions I were not at war with were the Russian factions to the far east and England I think lol..

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You mean WotK2? I play the moors in that :P

I took a rebel settlement - first blood for me! :clown: (though there was no actual fighting involved, it was empty)

Denmark up.

Fought with small army of HRE on Stettin region. Second(?) blood for me >:P

Fatimid Caliphate up.

Any chance we can get a diplomacy thread phonics?

sure thing, be right with you...

Cumans are up

im not really getting this whole "seed" thing. so every spy action changes the entire game? its pretty blown then

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey

Welcome back Silver! I'll make the Kwaz playable when it comes to my turn.

As for the agent rules, they are intended to make reloading to create a different outcome impossible.

It's because of the way that random actions work in this game - the random seed is generated at the start of the turn NOT when you try the action, but before, which means if you perform an action, then reload and perform the exact same action it will have exactly the same outcome time and time again because it is using the same random seed which is not reset by reloading.

Then once you have performed that action a new random seed is created which determines the chance of the next action succeeding or failing.

So if you fail an action, then reload and try a different action first it will reset the seed and then you can try the original action again. In this way it's possible to, through trial and error, keep reloading and trying different actions in different combinations until you get the result you want.

Hence in my rules you have to do the assassination first and the spying action second at the very start of the turn, to ensure that reloading won't help you and that it can be independently verified. You are only allowed one of each to stop you from trying different ones in combination over and over.

Test it yourself if you like, to prove it works.

As for the spies opening the gates, this rule doesn't stop you putting more than one spy in a settlement, but it's going to take you at least one turn per spy to do it.

Which will slow the game down and make it difficult to break through defensive lines without siege equipment. This is exactly the outcome I'm looking for.

Everyone's castles and cities are developed enough to produce siege equipment, so I think this is ok.

Let me know if anyone disagrees but to be honest the only other way I would have it is to ban spies from opening the gates at all, because they are overpowered in the game and it's impossible to tell if someone is cheating by reloading or just very very lucky.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by SilverShield

im not really getting this whole "seed" thing. so every spy action changes the entire game? its pretty blown then

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Yes. In theory, any spy/assassination action can change the 'randomness' of the turn to follow. Kinda weird, yes. Not the weirdest thing about Medieval 2 though.

In hotseat games, we therefore require that turns be done in a specific order: Assassination - Spy - Everything else (are we switching to Spy - Assassination - Everything else phonics?). This is not to somehow change the outcome of the game (though potentially it does, but seeing as we'll never know, it doesn't matter) but so that the outcome can be replicated. That is, if someone attempts to cheat, but follows the same order, the result will be the same (thus defeating the point of cheating). And anyone else can replicate the exact results by following the order (thus catching cheating if someone does not follow the order).

It is all a bit convoluted and technical, but you don't really have to worry about it. Just follow the simple order and otherwise play as normally.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deguerra

(are we switching to Spy - Assassination - Everything else phonics

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Yes, I'll update the rules when I get a chance - I'm crazy busy with work this week

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deguerra

Just follow the simple order and otherwise play as normally.

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Yesssss, trust the monkey....

Attachment 2832

England's up

Eastern Romans up

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...id=205&id=9619

i have completed the turn but i need some time to put it up. so give me an extension of 1 day.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1334/asdnh.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myth

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1334/asdnh.jpg

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wow, that is awesome!
did you make it Myth?

Yes, I did it in about 40 minutes while in the office. I have been away and the only thing left to add was the text, as per Monkey's request. I made the WOTK2 image as well.

Wicked!

Looks great Myth, thanks! It's now gracing the OP

And now a version that spells it "hotseat" and not "hotseast" :)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6986/asdezk.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myth

And now a version that spells it "hotseat" and not "hotseast" :)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6986/asdezk.jpg

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Even better!

Moors

lithuania!
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...id=205&id=9627

Hi guys,

I am still having problems with getting the patch 1.05 installed (I only purchased the game recently).
Will open a separate thread in the technical section and hope to get it fixed eventually.
In the meantime, perhaps Phonicsmonkey or the player coming after me can do my turn and play a "conservative" round - just build some economic buildings and put the army in a defensive position.

I hope to be able to make it to the next turn, but dont want to hold up the progress.

I'm trying to help Nigel but I'm not very techie so if anyone else has any advice please do chime in.

In the meantime I'll play the first turn for him some time over the weekend, unless someone else wants to have a go. Remember the grace period and the fact that I'm going to be disbanding the TO armies when it comes to their turn.

@Nigel-after reading your other thread and the 1.05 patch readme you appear to have the right version for you game. Did you un-rar the patch into the Med2TW file? If I remember correctly that's where it has to be to recognize the kingdoms.exe and for its setup.exe file to work properly. The patch's readme does not tell you how to install it-fabulous CA quality control.

Norway is up

This is going to be wacky fun. Several of you have received choice in-game message. I hope they give you as much pleasure to read as they gave me to write (I am thinking here particularly of France and Denmark).

Khwarezmian Shadom is up.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...id=205&id=9635

looking good there. thats becoming a good game

also i hired a mercenary ship. withdrew my army from constantinople. this army was totally stuck and given that im having my turn the very last that was okay

swabia? up
http://depositfiles.com/files/gerwzqwky

who the heck is swabia? is that venice? if i got it right it was the venice emblem but im kinda unsure there. im sending a pm to slysnake who is playing venice

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SilverShield

who the heck is swabia? is that venice?

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yep

My kingdom seems to occupy southern Germany, which is where Swabia historically once was; thought a name-change would be nice :)

EDIT: Sicily Attachment 2912

All of the ERE forces that were besieging Naples have been defeated. Most have been slaughtered, the rest cannot move next turn. Denmark up.

With only one assassination attempt per turn don't you think it feasible to allow the targeting of FMs?

bump

Rex?

Myth, we can do that if no-one objects

Sorry guys for not replying before - I got swamped with end of semester uni stuff. Is there any chance I could sneak in? (if not that's fine.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ignoramus

Sorry guys for not replying before - I got swamped with end of semester uni stuff. Is there any chance I could sneak in? (if not that's fine.)

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I'm sure we could accomodate you - which faction did you want?

Right, Rex is away on holiday until saturday morning. Whilst I COULD sub him, he hasn't given me precise instructions, so it would be good if Rex could play his turn himself. Are you guys alright waiting till then? If not I'm alright with subbing him...

I'd prefer if you could sub him as it's been a few days already. It's early in the game so unlikely to be a crucial turn for him.

You have his pw?

Rex told me that he is going to try and play his turn on his laptop tonight.

I'm very sorry to keep you guys waiting for long time. Turn will be done within hours.

Hold up guys. Phonics just informed me that I built units and recruited mercs during my first turn, which I wasn't supposed to do. I had realized that myself and redid my turn...but obviously submitted the wrong save game. I'm very sorry for the holdup, but I'll have to go again.

wait up, I'm going to see if we can resolve it without replaying since so many others have had their turn since.

Everyone, did anyone else forget about the grace period? Pipe up now please if so.

Well I'm certainly happy to disband anyone I recruited, so long as you trust me to do so. It does create another financial issue for me though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deguerra

It does create another financial issue for me though.

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It's amazing what you can do with the console

Hi phonics, is the HRE available, or Genoa?

both are - which would you like? have you looked at the save with the starting position?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey

wait up, I'm going to see if we can resolve it without replaying since so many others have had their turn since.

Everyone, did anyone else forget about the grace period? Pipe up now please if so.

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wait, oops, I completely forgot about not recruiting troops on the first turn. I played as though it was only not attacking other players. I can easily disband those troops I did recruit as it wasn't that many, but I am very sorry for this. I have been really busy lately and just wasn't thinking.

Ok, I think I'd like to take Genoa if I may.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nightbringer

wait, oops, I completely forgot about not recruiting troops on the first turn. I played as though it was only not attacking other players. I can easily disband those troops I did recruit as it wasn't that many, but I am very sorry for this. I have been really busy lately and just wasn't thinking.

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If this is going to cause a problem for anyone please pm me and I'll see what I can do to sort it out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ignoramus

Ok, I think I'd like to take Genoa if I may.

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Your inbox is full :)

Having recruited units on the first turn creates problems. Even if such are now disbanded and the players refunded via admin console, they will loose their recruitment pools. RR/RC even when turned off in the SS launcher, still sets built-in limits to the unit pools. Basically those factions that did this would be weaker.

In regards to Genoa being human controlled - i picked Sicilly hecaused i expected the ERE and Genoa to be AI lead. Changing the balance in my region post-factum is something i'd like to avoid if possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myth

Basically those factions that did this would be weaker.

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A price they pay for having ignored the grace period - doesn't seem too unreasonable does it? Unless you have a better idea as to how to straighten this out?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Myth

In regards to Genoa being human controlled - i picked Sicilly hecaused i expected the ERE and Genoa to be AI lead. Changing the balance in my region post-factum is something i'd like to avoid if possible.

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I'm sorry Myth but I said all along that Igno could join any time. Also you sent me your top three preferences and you didn't know at that point which faction you would get or which Igno would pick, so it's not quite accurate to say you picked Sicily on that basis.

In fact I always make it a rule that players can join at any time, it makes the game more interesting and for the Throne Room to be successful we must be inclusive and involve people if they are interested in playing.

Actually I picked the Fatimids thinking the Kwarezm were going to be AI-controlled and I would be able to gobble up all their lands, but it didn't stop me from letting Silver join the game.

Ok fair enough. Btw check the productiin charts for last turn to see if anyone made units. We can' check for agents but the armiea show up in the faction rankings charts for both production and military strength.

I have an idea for the recruitment pools but it requires you custom spawning armies via console, complete with the armour and chevrons they would get at that settlement, and then charging the player for the recruitment cost. However you'd have to keep track of every unit that has been creared on turn 1. That's a lot of work...

Hi Myth, sorry if I've spoiled any plans. But I think Genoa will be the weakest controlled human faction, so don't feel too threatened - you're a good player!

No worries Igno i welcome having you in another game and I was expecting you to join CoG! as well. Thank you for the compliment but it is because you are good yourself that i tried to get you further away from my starting lands ;) However Monkey has it far worse than me now that he mentioned it... Btw the beauty of fought battles is tyat even a seemingly weak faction can turn a war around with good skill on the battle l map.

Btw i apologize for any mistakes but i'm logging on via my Galaxy S and the tiny virtual keyboard is rather small for my sausage fingers :)

Everyone, if anyone finds they have accidentally recruited troops or agents during the grace period, please do not move them in this coming turn. They will be free to move in the next turn, the one in which they would legally have arrived if they were recruited on turn two.

Unless they are likely to be directly involved in a battle on turn two in which case please pm me and I'll arrange something. This goes for opposing players who notice illegal troops of factions they were planning to attack on turn two - pm me and let me know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey

Everyone, if anyone finds they have accidentally recruited troops or agents during the grace period, please do not move them in this coming turn. They will be free to move in the next turn, the one in which they would legally have arrived if they were recruited on turn two.

Unless they are likely to be directly involved in a battle on turn two in which case please pm me and I'll arrange something. This goes for opposing players who notice illegal troops of factions they were planning to attack on turn two - pm me and let me know.

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Sounds like a good solution :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slysnake

Sounds like a good solution :)

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Yes it does, I am just want to apologize again to everyone for blanking out on that.

And me.

I imagine I will have to disband a number of troops: def. Oslo with Denmark knocking at the door, and potentially Antwerp and whatever the Frisian town is called, depending on what France and Denmark are doing in that area. Let me know, you two, how we can best work that out.

And again, sorry for the hassle.

Fatimid's turn

Fought bloody siege of Stettin and conquered it. Oslo is also taken. This is going to be indeed wacky fun!

Can anyone let me know who I'm at war with, so I can do some diplomacy before my turn?

Man it's fun being thrown into the midst of it like this...two massive battles fought so far and more to come...

Igno I made genoa human-controlled and added some cash so you'll have ~30k in the treasury like everyone else - take a look at the starting position in the save I uploaded to the recruitment thread, you'll see your diplomatic position there.

You're allied to me (Sicilly) and you have some Crusading stacks in Africa.