Army compostion for seleucids in the west

As you can probably tell by my username im a fan of the arche. Im just curious to know what your compositon for your seleucid armies are during the game, especially when you've completed victory conditions and want to take on Rome and carthage for fun. I play on the recommended H/M settings and my late game armies are completely focused on heavy infantry and cavalry elites just because they are so beautiful. i dont really have the money to raise these armies until the victory conditions are met so i tend to test them against the western factions

1st Army
1 general
1 cataphract elephant
2 hetairoi
2 cataphracts
4 Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou
8 silver shields
2 Hypaspistai

2nd army
1 general
2 hetairoi
2 prodomoi
2 hypaspistai
2 Peltastai Makedonikoi
8 Pezhetairoi
1 mercenary galatian wild men
2 cretan archers

3rd Army (mercenary)
1 mercenary general
4 mercenary Pezhetairoi
2 massylian hoplites
4 samnite heavy infantry
2 bruttian infantry
2 cretan archers
1 thessalian cavalry
4 thracian skirmishers

My first army contains the best infantry and cavalry in the game while my second army is made up of semi elites and some mercenaries. My third army is made up of whatever i can recruit along the way. What ive found is that my first army suffers the most casualties per battle (250) and second army suffers the same casualties per battle (roughly 200) as my mercenary one so im assuming its an issue to do with the balance of my army. Im wondering if anyone has a good composition for their Seleucid armies when fighting in the west. Oh and im fighting late game carthage and roman armies btw

You need some ranged units in the first army. AI units tend to run and tire themselves out once a proper pelting from stones and arrows commences. Also your first army lacks flexible infantry and cavalry. What I tend to do at such a stage in game is take 18 "royal" units and reserve two slots for mercenaries which can handle siege assaults and act as lighter infantry to flank and such.

Then again, if you base an armies success purely on units lost, just take 19 units of Dahae Horsearchers and 1 cataphract elephant and I think you will be set. :p

why not add some syrian Archers they blend in nicely with the Cantanks and Can-man-tanks.

i think syrian archers have less arrows and range than cretans so i went with those. also it takes 2 years for me to send reinfocements from syria :(. Can you guys post up what kind of army you use against the carthage elite pikemen spam. and those elite libyans with the green shields. or just post up what you use agaisnt western armies. I made another savegame file and tested my first army against the lusitanian. WOW those guys are brutal. I never expected to lose 1/3 of my best infantry and cavalry to an army with half professional soldiers and half regional levies. Luckily im good with logistics and economy so after i conquered sicily italy and the alps i sent 4 armies into north africa and carthage is down to 3 cities in numdia. However they have 2 leftover full stacks of these elites. any tips on fighting lusitanians??? im pplannign to go into spain soon. what armies did you guys use? ( if u went to spain)

and also Rome has marian reforms and theyve pulled their shit together so now im actually facing stacks of post marian re-enlisted legions

and they have scattered cities surrounding the alps so i have to fend off attacks from different directions to hold onto italy

Ah the Greenshields are quite tough, shield armor, valor, AP axe and a spear to push Hetairoi from their horsies. I had my problem with them aswell, but I found it's best to use cheap AP troops against them. as they counter most Elite troops, exept those with ap-Weapons on their own. The Elite Pikemen, well Pin them down and cheap Ap-troops + Cav in the back, nothing else you can do about those.

The Lusitanians call for missile fire and swordsmen, shields are good aswell, but Armor is mostly dead weight as most of them have AP weapons :/ save up your elites for their spearmen ;)
I normally use a solid line of standard troops(pezos for the AS, I normally hae more hoplitesque troops) with 3+ shield and attack them with arrows and flanking swordsmen. Works most of the time. If you want you can also import Horse archers :D

The Suggestion of Syrians was of purely sylistic nature, I know that Kretan archers are much better I just think syrians fitt in much better, Cretans look like Experienced rough mercenaries(duh) syrians look like "proffessional" soldiers.

but arche doesnt really have ap units so they have to be mercenaries which i cant replace in time and my only swords men are the hypaspistai and Peltastai Makedonikoi which i use as flank guards. i cant really use them to flank cause for some reason the AI always deploys a longer line than me unless i outnumber them by alot. if i get more archers then my line will be even shorter. how many pezos do you use in an army?? my standard phalanxe line is 8 units

8 phalanxes is a lot. The AI just tends to enjoy lining up all their units in one line instead of creating multiple lines. Arche actually gets loads of AP units, they just tend to be very light, like Eastern Axes, Cappadocian or Anatolian Hillmen, or Hyrkanians. They may get Galathraikes or Triballi if you have expanded to the proper Thracian regions or the Galatian heavies and these may be a better solution as high lethality units. Alternatively, you can import your own AP elites in Guild Warriors all the way from India but thats a true hassle and not worth it imo. The whole point of light units is that they are replaceable, just use whatever is available at hand. Your army can leave Antioch with Eastern Axes but after a few battles in Iberia can be using Iberian swordsmen.

im interested in how you manage to get reinforcements sir robin. Im quite good at logistics and always plan my campaigns ahead and recruit units in pella every few turns to maintain a constant stream of reinforcements for the western front. However lately ive favoured using 100% mercenary armies to take cities and my royal armies to fight field battles. what do you do when your fighting far from the homeland but still want to maintain a successor style army

Well generally you don't need more than 2-4 units to take any towns because the AI doesn't reinforce them very well. And of course you can just maintain a siege until an attacking army turns your siege into a field battle. If you need to storm town centers use cheap expendable units with high lethality or ap. Gallic swords are perfect for this.

As far as field battles, phalangites generally take very few casualties and don't need to be replaced often. Heavy cavalry I keep in reserve. Light cavalry gets the brunt of the work along with missile units and the mercenaries or local recruits. Since I don't care about replenishing mercs I use them as liberally as I'd like. Light cav will get beat up but cavalry moves much quicker on the strat map than infantry reinforcements. And of course, missiles aren't that big a deal as they shouldn't take many casualties either, especially in the West. Therefore, light cavalry are really the only reinforcements I need regularly and I try to use mostly Prodromoi as AS. Also try to avoid attacking enemy armies, let them come to you and only push the issue by sieging cities. That way the enemy tires themselves out coming to you and allow themselves to get beat up by archers and slingers. Recruit Rhodian Slingers and Bosporan or Kretan Archers if you can.

Why not use the Ancient highway: the Mediterranean? If the Situation allows it I usually send Reinforcements per boat. It's much faster and allows for some sneaky amphibious attacks^^. most of the time I have at least one boat with reinforcements on the sea or rather a safe harbor.

haha yeh i like to roleplay though. If im sending armies via the sea i always use a fleet of 400 ships (so 8 units). i think sending a large army on a small boat is a bit dodge lol. i actually did that for the mercenary stack in italy and sne them on a boat to north africa but the royal armies i marched them from syria and egypt. and yeh i send reinforcment units of hypapastai by boat but the carthage in my game actually has a freaking powerful navy. its lead by a 5 star admiral and has 5 tier 4 ships

Oh and also the reason im asking this is I want to make an AAR of seleucids conquering the world. I already have several justiifications for war with various factions and i want to make it epic. Also can someone tell me how tl take those videos or pictures while in game?

Fraps can take video's and screenshots, but it costs a few bucks. For the screenshots, another alternative is the PRINT SCREEN button. I'm a noob at that button though. There should be some AAR guides on this forum somewhere...

There's a free version of FRAPS that can do both screenshots and videos, although it has limited functionality. I used Howie's screen capture for a while because it produced .jpg's (IIRC the freeware FRAPS only does .bmp), but it would sometimes go unstable, so use it at your own risk.

I haven't quite made it into the West in my current AS campaign, but here are some ideas for army composition :)

This is the core of usually all my armies (minus the slinger and the archers, these are just for garrison purposes), it works pretty well against anything they have encountered so far and leave room for a number of regional units. This stack has fought the Ptolies through all of Egypt and might soon be deployed against Carthage:
https://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1691/coreg.jpg

Here's a "regional" variety of that army, to counter the ongoing Macedon and Getai onslaught:
https://img819.imageshack.us/img819/...pirecore02.jpg

I'm trying new compositions as well, these are supposed to be flexible and able to defeat armies of the Getai and Sarmatians, so far they have worked well in the Crimean and might get some Bosporans and more Scythians in the future:
https://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6638/exp01.jpg

This is one another experiment that is supposed to wreak havoc in Greece, a Roman style Celtic/Galatian army, I can't wait to use it in a real field battle, should be good fun:
https://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4528/exp02c.jpg

My royal army that's finishing campaigning in India right now, there's still room for a unit of elephants:
https://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4751/royalx.jpg

A variety that has worked well against the Saka and might be useful to employ in the west as well:
https://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2117/easta.jpg

Those look like solid set-ups but I don't quite get what the akontistai and the Pelt-maks do in your Bosphoran set up? no Bosphoran archers? no Lonchophoroi?

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

Those look like solid set-ups but I don't quite get what the akontistai and the Pelt-maks do in your Bosphoran set up? no Bosphoran archers? no Lonchophoroi?

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Good point. I can't recruit Bosphorans yet, but they will be added to that army and replace the Caucasian archers. As far as the Akontistai go - I actually tend to use them sometimes, in this case they were the first troops I could recruit on the Crimean so I used them as garrison and to have cheap cannon fodder, they won't be part of a field army though. Right now, I'm undecided about cavalry. I have the Catas for punch and if needed the Scythians can be used as light middle cavalry (after all, they have a pretty decent charge bonus), fighting with the stack in the field will show if I want another unit of cavalry.

i notice you use pelt maks more a lot and almost have no hypaspistai. is there any reason for that? Ive always found pelt maks to perform quite poorly especially in field battles. They seem to be more vulnerable to missiles than hypaspists and dont move quickly enough to flank. Also they cant hold cav charges and have massive casualties compared to hypaspistai. even western medium infantry seems to do a lot of damage to them due to their small numbers. I only really put them in my army for variety

and you guys are right about my first army. ive defeated the Carthaginians and had a a bitch of a time trying to defeat the numdian rebels. my army was too heavy and the numdians wouldn't engage even when attacking me. i ended up having a series of battles with 100 casualties on both sides which was basically a waste of my time

Ah, that explains it. But as soon as you leave your walls you're better off with pantodapoi or Caucasians on loose formation to divert HA fire. But the Pelt maks still puzzle me, they may be good against infantry and the best thing for you to choose when assaulting walls, but in the steppe they are largely useless - no spears, javelins don't do much against HAs(well they do if you hit them but they seldom come in range) just Hardy(not very hardy) and not as impenetrable as TAB.
For cavalry I'd suggest Lonchophoroi as they have the largest shield or when they field cataphracts: Aspidophoroi. Anyway there is nothing wrong with skythian riders, afterall the most usefull unit type in the open.

You could add 1-2 units of mercenary horse archers or generally invest more in archers as they eat numidians for breakfast. Afterall the Numidians will avoid the phalangites as they'd get slaughtered if they engage them^^

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

Ah, that explains it. But as soon as you leave your walls you're better off with pantodapoi or Caucasians on loose formation to divert HA fire. But the Pelt maks still puzzle me, they may be good against infantry and the best thing for you to choose when assaulting walls, but in the steppe they are largely useless - no spears, javelins don't do much against HAs(well they do if you hit them but they seldom come in range) just Hardy(not very hardy) and not as impenetrable as TAB.
For cavalry I'd suggest Lonchophoroi as they have the largest shield or when they field cataphracts: Aspidophoroi. Anyway there is nothing wrong with skythian riders, afterall the most usefull unit type in the open.

You could add 1-2 units of mercenary horse archers or generally invest more in archers as they eat numidians for breakfast. Afterall the Numidians will avoid the phalangites as they'd get slaughtered if they engage them^^

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I know, Akontistai die like flies, but it is always useful to have a spear or more to throw at the enemy, that's why I prefer them over Spearmen. And for garrison duties: cheaper is better :D
You are right about the Pelt Maks. In fact, I just like the unit despite their often lacking performance and I heavily use them during sieges, I guess that's why I have some of them - the four units are the only ones throughout my empire though. There's no reason not to have some Aspidophoroi - I love heavy Skirmisher cavalry, might add unit or two as they are fine addition to raining arrow death.

War with Carthage is thankfully still a mile away (we have a neutral zone between our empires) and if it breaks out, there will be alot more Cretans and Skirmisher cavalry in my armies. In any case, thanks for the tips, I'll try them out as soon as I get back to that campaign :)

i think you should get a few more units of hypaspistai when you conquer pella. they are very versatile and a life saver when fighting romans. they are more versatile than TABs for me. ive only found one use for TABs and thats to guard flanks against cavalry when your other cavalry is tied up. they are like flexible phalanxs for me. i never use them as flanking force, only to guard my own flanks. But they are soo good at that

oh and btw your first priority i think should be to conquer a ring around the black sea before you begin attacking makedon and getai. if you conquer the entire black sea and build some ports the black sea will add around 10, 000 to your income. what difficulty are you playing on btw?

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Originally Posted by Ca Putt

The Lusitanians call for missile fire and swordsmen, shields are good aswell, but Armor is mostly dead weight as most of them have AP weapons :/ save up your elites for their spearmen ;)
I normally use a solid line of standard troops(pezos for the AS, I normally hae more hoplitesque troops) with 3+ shield and attack them with arrows and flanking swordsmen. Works most of the time. If you want you can also import Horse archers :D
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hey don't their spearmen have ap as well? they have solid metal spears or something dont they?

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Originally Posted by seleucid empire

hey don't their spearmen have ap as well? they have solid metal spears or something dont they?

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That's the soliferrum, so most Luso and Iberian units' javelins are AP...

BTW about your armies, they are too elite and not as heterogeneous for my tastes :P

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Originally Posted by Arjos

That's the soliferrum, so most Luso and Iberian units' javelins are AP...

BTW about your armies, they are too elite and not as heterogeneous for my tastes :P

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haha yeh my armies are so ineffective. but dont the scrutarii also have an ap spear like a real spear not a javelin?

I think their spear has the piercing trait in the edu, but they don't have the AP bonus afaik...

i mite just stay away from spain until ic an reform my armies those guys are too though. Ive finished conquering north Africa now and sent my second army to spain where it got ripped

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Originally Posted by seleucid empire

i mite just stay away from spain until ic an reform my armies those guys are too though. Ive finished conquering north Africa now and sent my second army to spain where it got ripped

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Hispania is to be taken by swift units and missiles units, not by armour and melee ^^

havent had much experience fighting iberians lol. btw has anyone ever used a single army to conquer a rich civilized faction which is very far away from your capital and has large distances between cities, for example a single greek army conquering eygpt and ethiopia or a pontic army conquering carthage/.

Not in Rome or EB, but I have done that in medieval 2. I took the Holy Land and some cities surrounding it as France, but my coffers emptied as I couldn't get any trade from those regions. That's why I usually don't do any naval invasions.

As for the armies, why would you need them if you know the tactics to utilize against a faction. Remember, the bigger an army gets the more difficult it is to control. All those elite units are very expensive and if you would need to maintain those armies + all your garrisons you might go bankrupt. I had to take out the Seleucids as Bactria with one army consisting of a FM, 5-6 klerchoupikes and some regionaries and that worked. Notice I started with 4 provinces.

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Originally Posted by seleucid empire

oh and btw your first priority i think should be to conquer a ring around the black sea before you begin attacking makedon and getai. if you conquer the entire black sea and build some ports the black sea will add around 10, 000 to your income. what difficulty are you playing on btw?

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I play on VH/M. So far I own pretty much all of the Black Sea already, except Kallatis (which is infested with the Getai, so no going there atm) I make around 30.000mnai a turn and unfortunately I can't cut spending as much as I would want to since I need loads of troops to control the Steppe regions and keep the Saka in check. I don't want to march into Greece before I have finished my campaign in India and secured my borders in Arabia. Fighting the Getai and Macedon will be challenging, and I'd rather have my royal army around and maybe a stack in reserve.

i think the getai stacks around the black sea wont be too hard to handle, their elite stacks usually go west onto pannonia so the stack in kallatis and oblia should be filled with thracian levies. in my seleucis campaigns india has just been a big drain on money cause i have to build loads of happiness buildings. send a spy to oblia and kallatis and check out their situations. if they are filled with levies i think you should just besiege them. your playing medium battles so it should be ok

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Originally Posted by seleucid empire

i think the getai stacks around the black sea wont be too hard to handle, their elite stacks usually go west onto pannonia so the stack in kallatis and oblia should be filled with thracian levies. in my seleucis campaigns india has just been a big drain on money cause i have to build loads of happiness buildings. send a spy to oblia and kallatis and check out their situations. if they are filled with levies i think you should just besiege them. your playing medium battles so it should be ok

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Oh, I'm not afraid of the battles, I'm just a bit reluctant to open up my empire and create more points of possible conflict. I know it's just the AI, but I prefer to attack from a strong defensive position, and right now I have two chokepoints that are easily defendable and reinforcable: the Crimean and Byzantion. I guess I don't want to give up these positions just yet as it would also mean to wreak factional havoc in Greece. Although I have around four full stacks in the area, I want to add a bit more military power to have a quick and decicive campaign. When I eliminated Hayasdan I went in with three full stacks eliminated all resistance in one turn and had them completely annihalted one year after that. I have a prolonged war with the Saba, Saka, and Baktria due to the remoteness of the regions.

For Greece I have all the logistics I need and the recruitment centers around the corner - I will have fun with that and not drag it out like other campaigns :)

hahah make it more more interesting if you can. see if you can move a Roman stack into greece using cheats or something start a Roman war. Then send another stack into Asia minor and you can have a battle of magnesia i think your campaign is 188?? thats only like 1 year after the real battle of magnesia

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Originally Posted by seleucid empire

hahah make it more more interesting if you can. see if you can move a Roman stack into greece using cheats or something start a Roman war. Then send another stack into Asia minor and you can have a battle of magnesia i think your campaign is 188?? thats only like 1 year after the real battle of magnesia

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Sounds like a great idea. Unfortunately, the Romans in my campaign are battling it out with the Lusos right now and have suffered some setbacks, so I don't want to further weaken them :/

Besides, I'm currently having a blast with my Roman campaign and I'm campaining against the Arche - bad for them, but some sort of Magnesia has already happened, and there are more full stacks on the way so I'll have some more fun battles :D

i remember ages ago when i was still playing M/M. in those campaigns Rome always dominates the west and KH always takes all of greece before being steamrolled by Rome so in that game I actually had a battle of Magnesia where they invaded Asia Minor near Sardis. I wont that battle but it was still epic

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Originally Posted by rickinator9

As for the armies, why would you need them if you know the tactics to utilize against a faction. Remember, the bigger an army gets the more difficult it is to control. All those elite units are very expensive and if you would need to maintain those armies + all your garrisons you might go bankrupt.

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i have never had financial problems with seleucids even from beginning of the game they are earning as much as carthage dispite having a bigger army. although i play on H diff not VH so i dont know what its like there. oh those two royal armies were kinda like experiments. usually when i conquer away from homeland regions i use a lot of merc armies or resilient units such as horse archers which i import from the black sea or even as far as parthia if they managed to conquer the north intact

Financially the difference is not that big between Hard and Very Hard campaign difficulties. If I recall correctly, trade gets multiplied by:

Easy: a factor 1.2
Medium: a factor of 1.00
Hard: a factor of 0.92
Very Hard: a factor of 0.85

The difficulty with the Seleucids is not so much the economy, but the management of the troops, and the vast expanses of their empire.