The continuation of my Israel experience thread

Ok so I know this is wierd, but my institution has Net Nanny on its computers, which I find is an inadequate and paranoid program. So I went to look at the latest post, which was Hax's, but I couldnt because it was blocked for gambling. What the :daisy:????
So if a mod could shut down the other thread because I wont be able to access it from now on. Yeah, I know, this place blows.

Though I did subscribe to the thread so I was able to read Hax's post:

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Last night, I attended a lecture about the Gaza strip. I won't say too much about exactly what kind of people there were, but let me tell you, I felt a Zionist in comparison. Death glares when I dared mention Hamas' manifest that contains anti-Jewish slurs.

The speaker (dr. Sara Roy, from Harvard) had some interesting things to say though; with the embargos on exports and imports that have gradually been put in place since the 1990's up until the siege of 2006, along with the dismemberment of the Palestinian state, in essence severing the Gaza strip from the West Bank economically, have ground the Gazan economy to a near-halt; 30 to 35% of all people are unemployed, with unemployment amongst the youth hovering around 49%. The private sectors is nearly completely gone, only the public sector has grown, with about 14%.

Of course, the problem is that once people have nothing to live for, they're not afraid of doing anything. In my opinion, the siege and blockade of Gaza is more a threat to Israel itself than to anyone else.

She also noted that the issue of Israel being a Jewish state is something the Israelis themselves should decide.

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Quite valid. People with nowhere to turn to will turn to drastic measures. Though the blockade arguably does have an effect, for weapons shipments have been intercepted because of it, I think it does overall more harm than good, since weapons are coming in anyways through the Egypt side, but I guess the blockade is slowing the rate in which weapons are coming into Gaza.

Also my friend was reading the book "World War Z" where it has a chapter where there is a civil war in Israel between the Haredi and the rest of the country. I honestly wouldnt be suprised if that happened.

Interesting opinion. It reminds me of what was said about Iraq: We invaded a subsidized welfare state with a poor work ethic and told them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Naturally, they objected.

Gaza is a welfare state. I don't buy the "unemployment" numbers because a lot of money flows into the country. People who work in the black market still make money but are also counted as unemployed. If they wanted to, they could turn their prime strip of real estate into the next Monte Carlo but their culture won't allow it and they'd loose their sources of free money.

The comment earlier about pride is important because their pride won't let them move on.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

The comment earlier about pride is important because their pride won't let them move on.

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Yeah, well unfortunately thats seems to be a cornerstone of religious Muslims.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Yeah, well unfortunately thats seems to be a cornerstone of religious Muslims.

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I think it's more of a cultural than religious phenomenon. A certain Italian captain comes to mind.

It is what it is and nothing more than that, islam sucks

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Originally Posted by Fragony

It is what it is and nothing more than that, islam sucks

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No. Islam's great. It tells you exactly what to do and how to live your life in exquisite detail with little room for doubt.

As does scientology and the hypno toad.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

No. Islam's great. It tells you exactly what to do and how to live your life in exquisite detail with little room for doubt.

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Sarcasm! That's not 100% absolutely superduper-yoooheyyyy, not at all.

You sir are a facist

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Sarcasm! That's not 100% absolutely superduper-yoooheyyyy, not at all.

You sir are a facist

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And a freedom hater. :laugh4:

Hypno Toad is all I need to find contentment.

Pride is indeed an important in communities all over the Middle-East. Not to spin off towards a meaningless tangent, but you'll find a major difference in attitude between Muslim Kurds living in an isolated mountain village in Turkey and a cosmopolitan Muslim living in Cairo.

The first thing people need to realise is that this is not a war of Jews versus Muslims or Muslims versus America.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Pride is indeed an important in communities all over the Middle-East...

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And that's a huge problem because in and of itself pride is stupid. Pride in its every incarnation is a detriment, be it a proud American, proud Arab or proud Israeli.

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=Gelatinous Cube;2053415013...Like any powerful emotion, it can be misused...

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That's the problem: pride is an emotion and emotion is an enemy of rational thinking.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

...To really be a rational thinker, you have to understand why you are having a particular emotion, and acknowledge that there are good and bad ways to express it...

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That's rationalizing. And you can rationalize about pride just fine. The problem is when you're trying to rationalize about your pride WHILE you're beaming with pride. I would argue that being under influence of any emotion impairs your ability to rationalize.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Truly? I bet you felt emotions while writing that. A sense of accomplishment at having written something you believe to be worthwhile, at the very least.

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Oh sure. It's not the presence of emotions but rather their intensity. Which is why they say that revenge is the dish best served cold. If somebody managed to really piss you off right now and you got really, REALLY mad at them, there's a chance that if you were to immediately respond to them you might say/do something you might regret. On the other hand, if you had a chance to sleep on it and give yourself time to cool off, your response would likely be different, more calculated.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

There is far more to be gained, from a rational perspective, in understanding and embracing your emotions (and thus being more able to avoid situations you don't want to be in) than from supressing them.

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And what I'm saying is that emotions can only be properly understood and embraced after they have subsided.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Well, yes. If that's what you were trying to say all along then I've been rambling for no reason and I'm sorry. :bow:

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Nothing to be sorry for :)

Can I still call you the Lion of Zion? :P

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Originally Posted by Hax

Pride is indeed an important in communities all over the Middle-East. Not to spin off towards a meaningless tangent, but you'll find a major difference in attitude between Muslim Kurds living in an isolated mountain village in Turkey and a cosmopolitan Muslim living in Cairo.

The first thing people need to realise is that this is not a war of Jews versus Muslims or Muslims versus America.

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Who cares, it's way too complicated for us to understand. How did you enjoy pointing out that Hamas actually is antisemit in the heart of the leeftist church, universities. They all know it's true but you are not supposed to point that out BAD HAX NEINNEINNEINNNEIN. They aren't going to talk to you in the same way anymore, no religion is as rigid as the leftist church, 100% OK or facist/zionist, no other flavour exists. Meet the leftist church, naturally become secular

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Originally Posted by rvg

That's the problem: pride is an emotion and emotion is an enemy of rational thinking.

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Pride is fine. It's hubris you have to watch out for. Emotions are there to align our body to our sensory input, from both senses and mind.

Rational thought is excellent. But it isn't the top tier. Acting on thought, imagination and wisdom all trump rational thought.

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Originally Posted by hoah in the other thread

As Shaka Khan said, I think its important that Jews feel they have a place to go if threatened. While I personally think that modern America fulfils that purpose, not everyone might think so.
Jews need a place to be proud of, a country that can stand up there with other great countries like the US and Britain, and say "I am a first world country. I represent democracy and freedom, and a home for Jews and anyone else who would like to live here."
Unfortunately that has been corrupted by the ultra-orthodox in the name of religion.
Unfortunately the crimes on both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are very serious, and while we wish there to be peace, I dont think its coming any time soon.

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Isn't also in a way the more orthodox who feel need for this state and thus not a logical step?

I am sorry to read that you are having such a bad time, Hooah. At least when you return you will have a renewed appreciation for your homeland and the ability to recognize and stand up to the theocrats over here. As bad as your experience in Israel has been, it will ultimately make you a better American. Stay safe over there.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Who cares, it's way too complicated for us to understand. How did you enjoy pointing out that Hamas actually is antisemit in the heart of the leeftist church, universities. They all know it's true but you are not supposed to point that out BAD HAX NEINNEINNEINNNEIN. They aren't going to talk to you in the same way anymore, no religion is as rigid as the leftist church, 100% OK or facist/zionist, no other flavour exists. Meet the leftist church, naturally become secular

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Oh Frag, your anti-intellectualism amuses me so.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Gaza is a welfare state. I don't buy the "unemployment" numbers because a lot of money flows into the country.

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As it does in Zimbabwe, etc.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

People who work in the black market still make money but are also counted as unemployed.

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Those who work in a black market job (I am guessing) largely do so because there is nowhere else to work. It would be a dangerous and illegal career and as such the people should still count towards unemployment statistics. Unless you mean those at the top of the black market trade, in which case they would make up such an insignificant fraction of the unemployment statistics so as to be neglible.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Pride is fine. It's hubris you have to watch out for. Emotions are there to align our body to our sensory input, from both senses and mind.

Rational thought is excellent. But it isn't the top tier. Acting on thought, imagination and wisdom all trump rational thought.

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Pride my foot, it's hate and resentment, wherever you go relgious muslims hate jews. It's in their book. And not living the book makes you a bad muslim. So you must hate jews to be a good one.It's that simple sometimes, unless you are that odd person who knows a muslim that doesn't hate the jews, raise your hand ('yes but' doesn't count that's so moderate). It is what it is

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Pride my foot, it's hate and resentment, wherever you go relgious muslims hate jews. It's in their book. And not living the book makes you a bad muslim. So you must hate jews to be a good one.It's that simple sometimes, unless you are that odd person who knows a muslim that doesn't hate the jews, raise your hand ('yes but' doesn't count that's so moderate). It is what it is

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*Raises hand*

@CA, glad I amuse you, but did your intelect even consider that someoone will one day refuse to accept the Nobel-peace price because he can't stand rhe hypocrcacy. Intellecualism is a small self-congratulating world that is rapidly losing it's shine

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Originally Posted by CountArach

*Raises hand*

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And I don't believe you, it would mean that 99% of my dealings with mmuslims were just a state of mind. You are lying, put that hand back

No, you are the one who's lying.

I deal with Muslims on a daily basis. I attend classes , I discuss religion and I talk with Muslims on a daily basis in an academic environment. We have a Jewish girl in our class as well. There has never beenany kind of anti-Jewish sentinment express by anyone, and we have the most diverse kind of Muslims there; Shi‘ites, Sunni converts, Ahmadiyya, Sufis, Turkish supporters of Milli Görüs, Kemalists, etc.

You are not going to tell me who is a "proper" Muslim and that a real Muslim should hate Jews, because in that case, you are severely disconnected from reality. And I mean severely. You're not in any kind of position to pass out any judgement concerning this issue. Unless you believe that the only kind of real Muslims are those in Hamas, well boy, have I got news for you:

Hamas doesn't care about people. They're politicians in the worst sense of the word; my father (a Muslim) has personally talked to members of Hamas and he was less than stellar about them, in fact, he outright despises them for their consistent betrayal of the Palestinian people. Hamas is not interested in helping anyone, they only care about themselves.

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How did you enjoy pointing out that Hamas actually is antisemit in the heart of the leeftist church, universities. They all know it's true but you are not supposed to point that out BAD HAX NEINNEINNEINNNEIN.

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There are idiots everywhere; I bet that more than half of the people there don't have a basic understanding of Arabic or studied Islamic fundamentalism in the 20th century. I despise people like Gretta Duijsenberg for their betrayal of the legacy of what happened in Europe between 1939 and 1945, in my opinion, they're possibly the worst kind of political scum; to leech off and to abuse the Holocaust while simultaneously expressing support for a self-proclaimed (!) fundamentalist, terrorist organisation. They cannot be condemned hard enough.

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Gaza is a welfare state. I don't buy the "unemployment" numbers because a lot of money flows into the country. People who work in the black market still make money but are also counted as unemployed. If they wanted to, they could turn their prime strip of real estate into the next Monte Carlo but their culture won't allow it and they'd loose their sources of free money.

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I think I'm going to try to explain this as kindly as I can, but this is one of the worst things I've heard so far. There was an Israeli journalist who said exactly the same thing; "If they wanted to, they can turn Gaza into the next Dubai"; this is basically on the same level of discourse as "Palestine already exists, it's called Jordan" and "The Jews can live in Madagascar".

As an interesting note, after the lecture I went for drinks with the same Jewish girl I mentioned earlier and some of her friends (all of them Israelis themselves). Of course, after a couple of beers people got more loose-tongued and spoke more freely. The proposition that Gaza would magically turn into some kind of wonderland is an idea that has consistently been spread by right-wing Israeli media to justify the siege and blockade of the Gaza strip.

Economic sustainability of the Gaza strip would be a most excellent development. However, Israeli policy is currently directed towards denying any kind of economic self-sustainability or independence. The dismemberment of the Palestinian provinces I mentioned earlier had the goal of severely diminishing the Palestinian economy to the degree that they became completely dependent on humanitarian assistance. As to why? Well, don't forget that Gaza was the stronghold of Arab resistance against the Israelis, and there is a theory that this is just a way for punishment. I don't know. However, there is an undeniable fact, whether you like it or not, and that is that Israel's blockade and siege of Gaza have ground the economy to a near-halt.

In a sense, you're definitely correct. Gaza is a welfare state. Gaza has never been given the opportunity, neither by Israel nor by Hamas (and I can't stress this last point enough) to have their own functioning economy.

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Yeah, well unfortunately thats seems to be a cornerstone of religious Muslims.

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Ultra-orthodox. Salafis. Jihadis.

My grandfather was a member of the Sufi Rahmaniya movement (who incidentally, also led the Turkish resistance against the French in Algeria). From what I've heard (I've never known him personally), he was one of the most humble people my parents ever knew.

This is just my personal opinion; from what I've personally experienced with Muslims here (there's just one guy, a Dutch convert whom I very much dislike) and abroad that they are helpful, humble and very hospitable.

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Interesting opinion. It reminds me of what was said about Iraq: We invaded a subsidized welfare state with a poor work ethic and told them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Naturally, they objected.

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So the presence of foreign troops on their soil and the fact that a pro-western Shi‘ite-majority government was appointed had totally nothing to do with it.

Those damn Ay-rabs and their laziness.

Oh Gretta, she's kinda family of mine, her dad married my grandma, and she was my mom's nanny. Trust me on this one, what was ugly 60 years ago is just as ugly now,

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Pride my foot, it's hate and resentment, wherever you go relgious muslims hate jews. It's in their book. And not living the book makes you a bad muslim. So you must hate jews to be a good one.It's that simple sometimes, unless you are that odd person who knows a muslim that doesn't hate the jews, raise your hand ('yes but' doesn't count that's so moderate). It is what it is

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*raises hand* Muslim clerics, even.

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Oh Gretta, she's kinda family of mine, her dad married my grandma, and she was my mom's nanny. Trust me on this one, what was ugly 60 years ago is just as ugly now,

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Did you even read my post? I actually expressed my disgust for her; my father talked to her a couple of years back and he, too, thinks she's really misguided.

I've heard this type of thing before. From a Jewish Canadian journalist who did the same sort of thing. And his experience included working in a restaurant where the Palestinian kitchen workers had to hide from the Israeli customers. Otherwise their business would evaporate.

I wouldnt even be able to recognize a Palestinian except if they are wearing a keffiyeh, they look so similar to many non-religious Israelis.

Also what really grinds my gears is how early everything shuts down where I live. I just got back from an outing to Jerusalem to see some friends. I got off the bus near the local pizza store near my institution at 10:45. Everything was shut down. I was really hungry so I was hoping that I could grab a slice, but nope, it was shut down too.
What the :daisy: is wrong with this place?

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

I wouldnt even be able to recognize a Palestinian except if they are wearing a keffiyeh, they look so similar to many non-religious Israelis.

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I make no claims to it's truthiness. Only that he related the anecdote in his article on being part of the second Gaza blockade flotilla. And that he claimed the Israeli customers of the shop would be able to recognize a Palestinian. Even if it was by how they spoke Arabic, and not some visual cue.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Also what really grinds my gears is how early everything shuts down where I live. I just got back from an outing to Jerusalem to see some friends. I got off the bus near the local pizza store near my institution at 10:45. Everything was shut down. I was really hungry so I was hoping that I could grab a slice, but nope, it was shut down too.
What the :daisy: is wrong with this place?

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It's under the sway of religious nut bags?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Pride my foot, it's hate and resentment, wherever you go relgious muslims hate jews. It's in their book. And not living the book makes you a bad muslim. So you must hate jews to be a good one.It's that simple sometimes, unless you are that odd person who knows a muslim that doesn't hate the jews, raise your hand ('yes but' doesn't count that's so moderate). It is what it is

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Raises hand.

Waleed Aly is an example of a typical smart Aussie.

Not necessarily. For example, long opening times is as much a sign of economic need as anything else. Take for example the “supermarkets” that they have in semi-rural south east England. You know, where Sainsbury's is advertising with how it keeps the villages alive by providing a single extremely shy and probably not very well paid employee to man the counter of the local supermarket...

That's just (relative) poverty. Not religious freedom, per se. Those shops would otherwise not net enough revenue to keep going, so they have little choice but to accept very long opening times.

Similar shops in the Netherlands just don't bother with 06:00 - 23:00 opening hours, as they can afford not to. :shrug:

EDIT: I als raise my hand for the knowing muslims who don't object to Jews scoreboard.

Raises both hands. Sorry frags, but the ones I know don't hate jews.

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Even if it was by how they spoke Arabic, and not some visual cue.

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Probably by the way they speak Hebrew. Of course, I think that they'd just try to avoid any contact, because at the moment they'd actually have to speak to Israelis, their Arabic accent would come through. I noticed this when talking to one of my Israeli friends, he kept saying "Chamas" while I pronounce it "Hamas" with as a voiceless pharyngeal fricative (I'd had to look that one up, hah).

Ha all you raising your hand must have been asking the wrong questions, scratch the surface a little and things might just look less good. Try asking why the muslim world is such a mess for example. Want to make a bet on what the answer will be? Try pointing out that Hamas isn't very nice, Antisemitism is rabid among muslims, if you deny that I really got to question your judgement.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Ha all you raising your hand must have been asking the wrong questions, scratch the surface a little and things might just look less good. Try asking why the muslim world is such a mess for example. Want to make a bet on what the answer will be? Try pointing out that Hamas isn't very nice, Antisemitism is rabid among muslims, if you deny that I really got to question your judgement.

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Might have something to do with semites charging into muslim lands, blowing people up and then re-establishing a state from 2000BC that they illegally grow further and further while thinking violence and threats are the best way to go forward? Just too bad that they ran into a bunch of similarly-minded people. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Might have something to do with semites charging into muslim lands, blowing people up and then re-establishing a state from 2000BC that they illegally grow further and further while thinking violence and threats are the best way to go forward? Just too bad that they ran into a bunch of similarly-minded people. :shrug:

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And maybe it doesn't, the only thing that makes the difference is that Israel is a jewish state. A very small one I might add where jews have lived since forever

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Originally Posted by Husar

Might have something to do with semites

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Is semites really the best word? Considering the fact that the vast majority of immigrants to Israel in 1948 were from outside of the Middle East.

Also Im not really sure what to make of all this. On one hand, one cannot say that the UN vote to establish Israel was invalid. It wasnt muslim land. It was British land. Muslims owned tracts of it, but it was not a Muslim land. Plus there were Jewish communities there. And one cannot say that it was ok for the Arab league to attack the new state. On the other hand, it is wrong for Israel to be bombing Gaza plus the Arab discrimination. And one cannot say that bombing a pizza shop is ok either, as Ive heard one member here say before. And then one cannot deny the fact how Arab leaders are using the Palestinian refugee crisis for their own gain. If the Arab leaders really cared about the Palestinians, then they would do something. But on the other hand, the Israeli government isnt helping either.

What a quagmire.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Is semites really the best word? Considering the fact that the vast majority of immigrants to Israel in 1948 were from outside of the Middle East.

Also Im not really sure what to make of all this. On one hand, one cannot say that the UN vote to establish Israel was invalid. It wasnt muslim land. It was British land. Muslims owned tracts of it, but it was not a Muslim land. Plus there were Jewish communities there. And one cannot say that it was ok for the Arab league to attack the new state. On the other hand, it is wrong for Israel to be bombing Gaza plus the Arab discrimination. And one cannot say that bombing a pizza shop is ok either, as Ive heard one member here say before. And then one cannot deny the fact how Arab leaders are using the Palestinian refugee crisis for their own gain. If the Arab leaders really cared about the Palestinians, then they would do something. But on the other hand, the Israeli government isnt helping either.

What a quagmire.

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Well, Jews (like Arabs, mind you) are part of the Semite language-cultural group (The other major players were the Indo-Europeans and the Berber language-cultural groups).

Well, the major problem isn't the UN vote on a Jewish homeland. It's the hypocrisy that is behind it. Obviously the Jewish only got to vote on it thanks to the economical and political weight that they had in Western countries. If one's cultural group gets a chance to get a vote in the UN to recreate a State in antiquity when most of the Jews by then lived in the diaspora, what about the 1001 other cultural groups with different languages and cultures from the political elites that ruled them from another land? What about the Kurds? What about the Tamils? What about the Tibetans? What about the Kosovars, the Abkhazs, the Punjabis, the Baluchis? A whole different ranges of peoples living under a "different" country, that had their own political entity throughout history, and which, even contrary to the Jews themselves, never left their ancestral lands. Where is their vote?

Besides, it wasn't British land. It was a British Mandate. It was a land with international jurisdiction which had been delegated to Britain on behalf of the international authorities. Britain had recieved the mandate under international law to ensure the transition of the administration until the locals were ready to rule by themselves. It is necessary to point out that when Britain made these commitments, the report of the League of Nations (Old UN, which did grant the Mandate to Britain), showed that 80% of the total population of Palestine was Muslim. In the last Ottoman census, shortly before they entered World War I, the province even had more Christian families than Jewish ones.

What happened was that since the British got the Mandate, they closed their eyes to Jewish migration, which was absolutely huge and that by itself was a violation of their own commitments to the International Law.

As you said, Arab leaders did kind of care for the Palestinian people. That is why they attacked Israel. Repeatedly. If Israel had been established in a chunk of Turkish territory instead, I doubt Arab leaders would have cared that much. Mustafa Kemal, on the other hand, would have done his best to drive whatever waves of Jewish immigrants that were arriving, into the sea.

As to shops closing early, I do admit I don't quite understand why it happens. Here in the North of Portugal, bars and shop stay open until 9 PM. In the South of Portugal, by 8 PM, everything is closed. It's weird.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Is semites really the best word? Considering the fact that the vast majority of immigrants to Israel in 1948 were from outside of the Middle East.

Also Im not really sure what to make of all this. On one hand, one cannot say that the UN vote to establish Israel was invalid. It wasnt muslim land. It was British land. Muslims owned tracts of it, but it was not a Muslim land. Plus there were Jewish communities there. And one cannot say that it was ok for the Arab league to attack the new state. On the other hand, it is wrong for Israel to be bombing Gaza plus the Arab discrimination. And one cannot say that bombing a pizza shop is ok either, as Ive heard one member here say before. And then one cannot deny the fact how Arab leaders are using the Palestinian refugee crisis for their own gain. If the Arab leaders really cared about the Palestinians, then they would do something. But on the other hand, the Israeli government isnt helping either.

What a quagmire.

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That's as good an argument for the legal establishment of Israel as I've seen. Enough Palestinian Jews made enough of a nuisance of themselves, backed by outside support, that the current rulers packed up and left it to an outside agency to sort out. The problem is that this doesn't make the Palestinian Arab side any less legitimate, only less successful. And of course, there is still the problem of ongoing land grabs in the West Bank, which have historically been the most legitimate justification for war. If the PLO declare formal war based on the Israeli annexation of the West Bank, Israel would have no justification left except the right of conquest.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Is semites really the best word?

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I just derived that from anti-semite, if being against israeli actions is being anti-semite then surely israelis have to be semite or else that argument doesn't make sense in the first place. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

What a quagmire.

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Yup. As for it being British land, so was a lot of land, doesn't mean that the locals always liked or desired that either.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I just derived that from anti-semite, if being against israeli actions is being anti-semite then surely israelis have to be semite or else that argument doesn't make sense in the first place. ~;)

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Oh please, only overly zealous zionists (or, as I like to call them, OZZists) call people who disagree with Israeli actions anti-semites.
:book2:

Abuse of the word anti-semitism is just a Zionist conspiracy.

Seriously though, anti-Israeli would make more sense; Arabs themselves are Semites, so yeah.

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Originally Posted by Hax

Abuse of the word anti-semitism is just a Zionist conspiracy.

Seriously though, anti-Israeli would make more sense; Arabs themselves are Semites, so yeah.

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Actually, anti-semitism has become the modern synonym of the word "Blasphemy". Blasphemy in it's meaning, is an action which is so utterly against God that is should in no way try to do the said action or even argue for it. "Anti-Semitism" has become the near comparison for the word. Calling something/someone Anti-Semitic invokes the very same social sanctions of the Blasphemic words. If someone says anything against Israel or Jews, they go: "Oh! Anti-Semitism! Look!"

Just replace Anti-Semitism with Blasphemy, and you have exactly the same purpose for the word.

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Originally Posted by Jolt

If someone says anything against Israel or Jews, they go: "Oh! Anti-Semitism! Look!"

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Well, if you do say something against Jews it is Anti-semitism. Just like saying something against black people is racist.

Anyhow, Im going to tell my dad the truth today and tell him that I do not like it here and Id like to come home. Wish me luck.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Oh please, only overly zealous zionists (or, as I like to call them, OZZists) call people who disagree with Israeli actions anti-semites.
:book2:

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Nah. Where are all the muslims and gutmensch when it's not about Israel? Gutmensch absolutely adores Palestinians at least if they not be simply anti-semites, maybe they can explain it to me one day. Will always solemny declare he has always rejected all violene, but thing is they never do that; 'yes but' is really the highest you can reach for.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

Well, if you do say something against Jews it is Anti-semitism. Just like saying something against black people is racist.

Anyhow, Im going to tell my dad the truth today and tell him that I do not like it here and Id like to come home. Wish me luck.

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Good luck and congratz on sincerity.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Nah. Where are all the muslims and gutmensch when it's not about Israel? Gutmensch absolutely adores Palestinians at least if they not be simply anti-semites, maybe they can explain it to me one day. Will always solemny declare he has always rejected all violene, but thing is they never do that; 'yes but' is really the highest you can reach for.

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If by Gutmensch you mean those who disapprove of Israel's actions, I don't particularly like Palestine either. My preference would be to just fence the area off and leave them to deal with themselves however they like, with anyone from the EU who ventures into there stripped of their EU citizenship. If the people there aren't inclined to listen to us, I don't see why we should be saddled with their disaffection.

So I called my mom and dad. My dad was in a meeting and has yet to call me back, though he didnt get really mad when he heard I wanted to come home. My mom asked me why I wanted to come home but I found it hard to explain why since I cant tell them that I do not want to be religious since they would probably disown me.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

So I called my mom and dad. My dad was in a meeting and has yet to call me back, though he didnt get really mad when he heard I wanted to come home. My mom asked me why I wanted to come home but I found it hard to explain why since I cant tell them that I do not want to be religious since they would probably disown me.

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Tell them that the people there weren't religious enough for your taste and you can not stand their impious behavior.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

So I called my mom and dad. My dad was in a meeting and has yet to call me back, though he didnt get really mad when he heard I wanted to come home. My mom asked me why I wanted to come home but I found it hard to explain why since I cant tell them that I do not want to be religious since they would probably disown me.

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Charming. Well, your opposition is mainly on how they express themself if I got you correctly. You can be a religious Christian without being a steriotypical religous right-winger, so you can probably be a religious Jew without being a mosque burning, US hating bigot.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Charming. Well, your opposition is mainly on how they express themself if I got you correctly. You can be a religious Christian without being a steriotypical religous right-winger, so you can probably be a religious Jew without being a mosque burning, US hating bigot.

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Simetrical, a former admin at TWC, is a strict Orthodox Jew in his personal ethics, but he's very liberal/libertarian in how he views others. In terms of how they carry themselves, I doubt many would be more strictly orthodox than him, but outward bigotry or anything other than tolerance is alien to him. All religious people should be like him.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Charming. Well, your opposition is mainly on how they express themself if I got you correctly. You can be a religious Christian without being a steriotypical religous right-winger, so you can probably be a religious Jew without being a mosque burning, US hating bigot.

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Well they are pretty good people. I mean, they dont hate the US, and they have no plans on moving to Israel anytime soon. Plus they are pretty tolerant- I even heard my dad say once that Israel should at least reduce the number of airstrikes on Gaza.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

I even heard my dad say once that Israel should at least reduce the number of airstrikes on Gaza.

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:laugh3:

What are your parents opinions on settlements (Arguably one of the continued and reiterated deepest violations of International Law in the 21th Century)?

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

If by Gutmensch you mean those who disapprove of Israel's actions, I don't particularly like Palestine either. My preference would be to just fence the area off and leave them to deal with themselves however they like, with anyone from the EU who ventures into there stripped of their EU citizenship. If the people there aren't inclined to listen to us, I don't see why we should be saddled with their disaffection.

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Sounds fair enough. But I will remain suspicious of anyone who's superior morals are only triggered when it concerns Israel and who are united in silence when it's raining rockets. They can say it has nothing to do with Israel being a jewish state all they want, I don't believe them. 99.9999% of the world isn't Israel but gutmensch isn't interested in 99.9999% of the world

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Originally Posted by Jolt

:laugh3:

What are your parents opinions on settlements (Arguably one of the continued and reiterated deepest violations of International Law in the 21th Century)?

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No idea, never mentioned it.

So I talked with my dad, and I told him everything. Then he said that he will think it over and talk to people where I am, and if he decides that it would be best to come home, then I will come home ASAP.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Sounds fair enough. But I will remain suspicious of anyone who's superior morals are only triggered when it concerns Israel and who are united in silence when it's raining rockets. They can say it has nothing to do with Israel being a jewish state all they want, I don't believe them. 99.9999% of the world isn't Israel but gutmensch isn't interested in 99.9999% of the world

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What do you think of Palestinian violence against Israeli border settlements in the West Bank?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

And maybe it doesn't, the only thing that makes the difference is that Israel is a jewish state. A very small one I might add where jews have lived since forever

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1948 is forever?
Or are you talking about the state from about 1200 BC to about 750BC?
A "State" that hasn't existed for 2700 years and was occupied by other longer that it existed.
I sure as hell hope some Eburonii suddenly aren't going to kick my ass over the rhine again... Or worse kick my Indo-European ass all back to Uzbekistan or something, they surely were here longer than we.

If a distant past is a good validation for the present, I'd like the Spanish Inquisition to be reinstated and send to your protestant land. :mad:


"The past is a foreign country..." Please let it remain so.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

What do you think of Palestinian violence against Israeli border settlements in the West Bank?

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Don't start any wars and cry over territory if you lose. Would be one hell if a job if we did so here in Europe, or anywhere really. Of course a lot of these settlers are every bit as much scum mind you

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Don't start any wars and cry over territory if you lose. Would be one hell if a job if we did so here in Europe, or anywhere really. Of course a lot of these settlers are every bit as much scum mind you

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The encroachment isn't exactly the result of territorial adjustments following war though. Israel are AFAIK maintaining that they are at a state of peace with the Fatah regime at least, which is the governing power in the Palestinian West Bank, yet they are taking more and more land under Israeli power. Maybe Banquo and Redleg can correct me, but aren't the Palestinians thus entitled to any and all violent resistance within the area internationally recognised as the Palestinian West Bank?

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

The encroachment isn't exactly the result of territorial adjustments following war though. Israel are AFAIK maintaining that they are at a state of peace with the Fatah regime at least, which is the governing power in the Palestinian West Bank, yet they are taking more and more land under Israeli power. Maybe Banquo and Redleg can correct me, but aren't the Palestinians thus entitled to any and all violent resistance within the area internationally recognised as the Palestinian West Bank?

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Can answer that for you, not untill there is a Palestinian state, which Hamas & co don't even want in the first place as they would be the ones that are the target first. But anyway what good are laws really, if Hamas and western sympathisers had their way it would mean mass-murder. Like this it's occasionally someone getting hurt and mostly they are the scum of the earth. It doesn't get any better than that. Israel build a wall and it mostly works,

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Can answer that for you, not untill there is a Palestinian state, which Hamas & co don't even want in the first place as they would be the ones that are the target first. But anyway what good are laws really, if Hamas and western sympathisers had their way it would mean mass-murder. Like this it's occasionally someone getting hurt and mostly they are the scum of the earth. It doesn't get any better than that. Israel build a wall and it mostly works,

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Your denial of any Palestinian rights seems to rest on the idea that the Palestinian state does not exist. If the Palestinian state doesn't exist, then its jurisdiction cannot be abused by any and all Israeli encroachment. The problem is, Israeli mostly has a problem with Hamas, who are the governing power in Gaza, while they at least tacitly recognise the Fatah government enough to have held talks with them in the past. If your argument were valid, Israel should be building settlements in the Gaza strip, where Hamas are. With the Gaza strip and the West Bank separated as they are, and with Fatah not having control of the Gaza strip, how does Hamas's behaviour justify the annexation of the West Bank, as per the argument you are advancing?

This is what happens when you deny people beer, bacon, and low cut tops

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

Your denial of any Palestinian rights seems to rest on the idea that the Palestinian state does not exist. If the Palestinian state doesn't exist, then its jurisdiction cannot be abused by any and all Israeli encroachment. The problem is, Israeli mostly has a problem with Hamas, who are the governing power in Gaza, while they at least tacitly recognise the Fatah government enough to have held talks with them in the past. If your argument were valid, Israel should be building settlements in the Gaza strip, where Hamas are. With the Gaza strip and the West Bank separated as they are, and with Fatah not having control of the Gaza strip, how does Hamas's behaviour justify the annexation of the West Bank, as per the argument you are advancing?

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Said Hamas & co, does it really makes such a difference if also kill eachother? Fatah that much, well.. different? Fatah is in charge where Hamas isn't

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Said Hamas & co, does it really makes such a difference if also kill eachother? Fatah that much, well.. different? Fatah is in charge where Hamas isn't

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I'm not sure what your argument is here, other than there is no difference between the Pallies, so punishing one group for the actions of the other is perfectly valid. The Palestinian pseudo-state, or to use your language the bit which isn't Israel, is split into two separate areas, the West Bank and the Gaza strip. Fatah, which AFAIK recognises the state of Israel, controls the West Bank. Hamas, which doesn't recognise the state of Israel, controls the Gaza strip. You've used Hamas as the argument for why the Palestinians deserve to have their land taken away. But Israel isn't taking land in the Gaza strip, but the West Bank. Your argument is that there is no difference between them, so punishing one for the actions of the other is perfectly legitimate.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

This is what happens when you deny people beer, bacon, and low cut tops

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I sure there is some boffin out there who could figure out a way we can have all three in the one package.

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Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy

I sure there is some boffin out there who could figure out a way we can have all three in the one package.

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Ever been to an IHOP at 3 in the morning?

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Ever been to an IHOP at 3 in the morning?

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I was in one in Iowa but not a 3 in the morning unfortunately, I nearly calfed on it twas like eating pure sugar and salt.

It's not like we dont all sorts of bad mind rotting cereals or greasy food here mind it just seemed like they didnt even make an effort to pretend.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

I'm not sure what your argument is here, other than there is no difference between the Pallies, so punishing one group for the actions of the other is perfectly valid. The Palestinian pseudo-state, or to use your language the bit which isn't Israel, is split into two separate areas, the West Bank and the Gaza strip. Fatah, which AFAIK recognises the state of Israel, controls the West Bank. Hamas, which doesn't recognise the state of Israel, controls the Gaza strip. You've used Hamas as the argument for why the Palestinians deserve to have their land taken away. But Israel isn't taking land in the Gaza strip, but the West Bank. Your argument is that there is no difference between them, so punishing one for the actions of the other is perfectly legitimate.

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Nah, as my argument is that it is simply islam, and lefties who will adore anything islam because it's islam-related.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Nah, as my argument is that it is simply islam, and lefties who will adore anything islam because it's islam-related.

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How do the lefties explain their adoration of islam? As a doctrine it is pretty far from the leftist ideals.

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Originally Posted by rvg

How do the lefties explain their adoration of islam? As a doctrine it is pretty far from the leftist ideals.

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Ask them, I really don't understand why lefties absolutely adore anything Islam.It's odd. But I have always been bad at leftiet logic , just don't see it

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Nah, as my argument is that it is simply islam, and lefties who will adore anything islam because it's islam-related.

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I can't say I like anything about modern Islam, so can you explain to me how my lack of appreciation of your and Israel's argument on this matter relates to my adoration of Islam?

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

I can't say I like anything about modern Islam, so can you explain to me how my lack of appreciation of your and Israel's argument on this matter relates to my adoration of Islam?

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Did I ever accuse you? You are reasonable, you have even made me reconsider some things in the past. Maybe our own semi-arab Hax can fill you in on the kind of people that I'm talking about now that he has met them, not so reasonable, we call it the leftist church with good reason. Rebels without a clue

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Originally Posted by rvg

How do the lefties explain their adoration of islam? As a doctrine it is pretty far from the leftist ideals.

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it's because it's the "anti-US" position.
In Portugal I see it showing up a lot in the communist and left-bloc parties.

"Islamophilia", which to be honest, carries as much connotations as "Islamophobia" and in my opinion are thus terms that shouldn't be used in civil discourse, is a matter that hasn't had much attention in the media, let alone in academia. Still, assuming that Fragony's assumptions about the pandering of politicians, academicians and political activists to Islam is true, it would make for an interesting subject to research. Good idea for an essay or paper (thanks, Frags).


So assuming that all of Fragony's assumptions about “leftist Islamophilia” are correct, we can move on: why (and from here, I'm going to assume that Fragony's complaints are right) would politicians pander to Islam? In light of the waves of immigration of people from mostly non-western immigration, particularly of Moroccan and Turkish descent in the Netherlands (hovering around 5% as of now), it's somewhat understandable: they (Muslim) immigrants represent a portion of the population that is eligible for voting. That's politics.


On the subject of academics or scholars. I think that there has been much attention and adoration for Islam, especially from historians in the light of the scientific prowess made in the Islamic world between 750 and 1250, in a time commonly defined as the “Islamic Golden Age”. Whether this movement was “Islamic” in nature is debatable; however, the position that Muslim scholars simply copied everything from Greek, Chinese, Indian or Persian sources is absolutely incorrect.


On the subject of political activists. I think that absolute cultural relativism and anti-American sentiments play a large role in this. I for one admire the U.S. (or at least, how it was before WWII, but let's not discuss that here), however many of the students I take courses with, both Muslim and non-Muslim (and particularly non-Muslims!) have expressed their severe dislike or hatred of the U.S. For me personally, it's relatively clear; I don't dislike the United States (a quick glance at my favourite music would confirm that) and I don't think they dislike the U.S. either, it's purely a matter of United States foreign policy.


On that subject, I think I can begin the understand why people sympathise with Islamist, even extremist Islamist movements; they're opposed to the United States. They're underdogs, and people have a tendency to sympathise with underdogs. Simple critical analysis of radical Islamist movements would automatically dispell the idea that they (Muslim radicals) accept or even tolerate the “disbelief” of western, non-Muslim pro-Palestinian political activists; they're a tool to be used today, an enemy to be fought tomorrow. And the ignorance or denial of this simple fact is what, in my opinion, is one of the worst possible hypocricies; to be so extreme in your dislike of U.S. interventionism or foreign policy to willingly sympathise with violent and radical organisations and voice anti-Jewish sentiment while people who survived the Holocaust are still alive is unacceptable.


I would like to say two things about this matter: the first being that the issues I wrote about don't necessarily reflect my point of view. I think the entire situation is more complicated as there are many factors we have to calculate; the Israeli lobby in the United States, internal Israeli policies, the effects of the Arab Spring, the popular support for Islamist movements in the Middle East, the Iranian nuclear program, etc, etc.


As a second note, I would like to point out that the issue with political activists is exactly what makes this conflict so difficult: it's become so polarised to the degree that it's become virtally impossible to support both sides. The other problem is that the idea is propogated that this is a conflict of Jews versus Muslims; support for Israel makes you a Judaeophile, support for Palestine makes you a Islamophile. As I said earlier, I think this is the first position to be thrown out the window, as it's not making things easier for anyone. Yes, you can be Muslim and support Israel. You can also be Jewish and support Palestine without being a self-hating Jew.


I would like everyone to stop thinking about this as a religious issue (and I blame Hamas and the Christian neo-conservative pro-Palestinian lobby equally in this case), but as an issue concerning people. Edward Said, probably the greatest supporter of Palestinian rights in the 20th century, was a Christian. The Druze who fight in the IDF and have supported Israel since 1948 are a Shi‘ite splinter group (but you shouldn't mention that to them, they'll kill you).


It's not as easy as Muslims vs non-Muslims, although that would make things a lot easier. The thing is that this isn't a simple issue. So once again, let's stop the idea that this is religious. It's political.


*not all western, non-Muslim pro-Palestinian activists, I believe there are many people who support Palestine that do not support or sympathise with any kind of violence towards Israel(is), but I'm not talking about those people.

"Good idea for an essay or paper"

I really wouldn't do that.

Great post by the way. I'll go into what I think it's at the core: islam is simply proving multiculturalism wrong. Dutch muslims aren't interested in Dutch culture. Fine with me why should they just don't bother me. But these leftist idiots will never cease to see society as their personal testlab, they have a theory and they want to prove it. No worse a narcist than an idealist.

most dutch ppl dont even care about dutch culture... apart from licorice and waffles.