No Gun Shogun: A Self-Proclaimed Suicidal Campaign in Futility

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attac...9&d=1335096646
A self-proclaimed suicidal campaign in futility
Title image created by Voigtkampf. Thanks!

As you may have gathered from the title and sub-title, this is a handicap campaign and I expect to die horrifically.

When FotS was first announced my reaction was to mutter something about "Don't like guns and pre-modern stuff. Boring. Would much prefer to have another game with swords and melee." Shortly before FotS was released, I saw a few screenshots with samurai in snazzy black and gold traditional armour fighting some modern infantry. "Ah ha!" thought I. "I wonder if it's possible to refuse modernisation? What if I place my destiny where my crazed mutterings are, and stand against the tide in full King Canute fashion? I'll go down in a hail of bullets, but at least I shall be wearing some seriously nice armour when I do!" Then I realised that "No Gun Shogun" is a catchy title for an AAR, and there we go.

The rules are as follows:

• Absolutely no fancy modern guns allowed! This means nothing above the muskets units used in the Sengoku campaign. That means levy infantry and matchlock kachi will be my only gun units. No artillery, no line infantry, no snipers - nothing. Not even the Shinsengumi police force!
• Because FotS campaigns feel very long, I will play on 'Short' campaign mode. I will use hard difficulty for the campaign map, and normal difficulty for battles. Because they are geared towards traditionalism and have cool armour, I will play as the Aizu and support the Shogun because he is the traditional ruler. However, because he has betrayed traditional culture by throwing open the gates to foreigners, it is understood that the Tokugawa will not remain in power for long after my victory. An Aizu Shogunate will rise to replace them, and once again close the borders. Thus, I should attempt to establish a powerful position instead of merely scraping past the line for victory.
• Whilst my original intention was to avoid anything which stank of modernisation, the gameplay design does not make this possible. I must modernise to a certain degree in order to get an economy. Certain buildings and tech will be off-limits, however.
• I can research the following military tech: shih, school of shinobi, improved defences, gatling gun towers (purely economic if you don't build the towers), militarised society, and shipyard research. If it's not on that list, it's not allowed.
• All economic tech is permitted except for: foreign affairs, western agenda.
• All agents are permitted, except for the foreign veteran.
• No castle tower upgrades permitted beyond matchlock towers. No castle upgrades permitted beyond citadel. No foreign trade districts or dry docks. I will only build factories if my economy cannot scrape by without them. I will attempt to choose the more traditional upgrades instead of the more modern ones wherever feasible.
• I will not use railways. Nor will I build them.
• There are no traditional ships, and sadly the naval aspect of the game is impossible to ignore. Thus, I can use any of the ships which do not require fancy ports to recruit. No ironclads, torpedo boats, or anything else overly modern.
• Traditional units have two limitations placed on them by the game: they are very expensive, and they are slow to recruit. Because of this I am permitted to build the first level of the modern military buildings in my recruitment provinces - each building provides one extra recruitment slot. Without them, I'll never be able to field an army large enough to survive past the opening.

That's the premise. I'll set the scene and report the starting position in another post later today.

I can hardly wait :laugh4:

This sounds interesting =p

I have, without wanting to, done a complete opposite of this and have abandoned all melee units from my armies xD

Looking forward to this. I can already see some heroic cavalry charges against gatling positions. :bow:

Don't you need an American advisor named Tom Cruise? *ducks*

I always call the foreign veterans Tom Cruises xD

New rule: If I see a foreign veteran and assassination is feasible, it must be attempted. Feasible is defined as: above a 35% success rating, a suitable agent of my own within range to strike on that turn or the next, enough money that it won't get in the way of very important plans. Tom Cruise must die!

I started writing, and decided to change direction a little. Back to the beginning. I think the new idea works better. You'll see ...

Did you know that the Samurai actually appreciated the whole modernisation thing? =p

Of course. This is purely a frog-thing. I lose all interest in history once guns become the common weapon. Somehow everything gets boring then, from warfare to fashion, politics to society, artwork, aesthetics, architecture, even the famous people are IMO boring. Ugh! Give me pre-gunpowder history and warfare! Love that history.

My original hope was to play a game rejecting everything I dislike (basically stay Sengoku-level the entire time) but thanks to the economy and navy, that's not possible. I've had to bend a little else I wouldn't have the money to do anything.

Well, the game certainly has a lot of really useless units in it and the more firepower they add to the game, the more useless units there will be, until all we are doing is move carrier groups around and launch nukes.

Historically, I really like the industrial age and anything that comes after that the most but yeah..

For the whole gameplay thing, anything before mass use of gunpowder is more interesting than what is happening "atm" =p

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

... Tom Cruise must die! ...

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Well here's a campaign concept I can get behind.

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

....even the famous people are IMO boring. Ugh!

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Hey now! Saigo Takamori is pretty interesting!

In my opinion (as a diverted history academic) I think part of the appeal of pre-industrial history is it is less familiar to us; if history is another country then the further back, the more exotic it is.

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Originally Posted by Peasant Phill

Well here's a campaign concept I can get behind.

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I actually describe this game to non-enthusiasts as "machine-gunning Tom Cruise" since that is most people's common idea about this period. ;)

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Originally Posted by Trithemius

Hey now! Saigo Takamori is pretty interesting!

In my opinion (as a diverted history academic) I think part of the appeal of pre-industrial history is it is less familiar to us; if history is another country then the further back, the more exotic it is.

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Yeah some of the stuff they have in the vanilla Shogun 2 is pretty mind boggling... Climbing walls instead of ladders? Carving castles into rocks instead of building them somewhere convenient... Cannons made from wood... total lack of shields xD This is almost like watching some aliens.

"All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved." Sun Tzu.
"Which is a good thing - I'd lose whatever reputation I have for strategic know-how!" froggy.
(with zero pretenses at historical or cultural accuracy, Eastern or Western)


https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attac...8&d=1335183962
Mr Aizu thumbs his nose at Westerners mocking his need for comfortable trousers.

The situation is intolerable!

A state of emergency must be declared!

The gods of our forefathers will surely abandon us!

Foreigners are once again on Japanese soil, bringing rifles, long-range artillery, steam ships, railways, factories.

Worse, they laugh at us.

It cannot be borne. It will not be borne! Here, now, with one brave clan, we will draw the line and make our stand!

Suicidal some may call it. Necessary, we call it. A few brave men may start a revolution. A few strong soldiers may hold back an army. Some ideals are worth dying for, as living without them is not living at all.

And besides, they keep saying Aizu sounds like someone sneezing!

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attac...0&d=1335187140
In the shade of pleasant trees, let us plan ...

And so, seated in the palatial surrounds of his home, our heroic leader began to plan. That's what my biographers will say one day. Personally, I've always found it a bit pretentious to speak of myself in the third person.

I am Matsudaira Katamori, leader of the mighty Aizu, the people of the black and gold armour.

The foreign ships came, shattering our tranquillity as they forced moorage at our ports. Ignoring our requests that they leave, they threatened our officials until they accepted letters intended for the bakufu - for our government, as they insisted on calling it. Rid of one nation, another arrived. The same demands, thought politer in delivery. We knew our isolation was at an end.

What could we do? In three hundred years of peace, our swords had grown blunt, our samurai soft. We, who prided ourselves on our warrior traditions, found ourselves too weak to fight. The shame! The humiliation!

We could not prevent the ships from landing. We could not deny their impudent demands. When they came again, we accepted their technology, let them dress us in their fashions, let them advise us on how to fight, work, speak, think, live.

As we did this, they laughed. They mocked my new clothes, said I did not wear them correctly and that I was not fit company for polite ladies. They laughed, saying the proud name of Aizu sounded like a sneeze. They laughed, calling my armour quaint. They asked to buy a sword such as mine to "Send to the folks back home." because "It'll look neat on the mantlepiece."

He who laughs last, laughs the longest. So says one of the foreign proverbs. So it shall be. You laughed, and now so shall we. If need be, we shall laugh until our final breath is spent and our blood nourishes the soil.

I will don my armour and take up my yari. I will rediscover the warrior spirit which lies beneath the forms of martial arts learned in the name of readiness for conflict I knew would never come. Brave samurai will join me. The peasants will be called to arms, as were the ashigaru of the past. With the weapons of our forefathers we will fight. We will prevail, or die as true samurai!

We will take from the foreigners so far as suits us. What we wish to have, not what they wish to give.

The shogun is weak. Had his line not allowed our nation to sink into feebleness, we might have challenged the foreigners when they arrived! We cast them from our shores once, why not again? Because the Tokugawa wished us soft and feeble for the comfort of their own rule. Once harmony is restored to our land, we will replace them. A stern shogunate capable of ruling a nation fit for war. Nonetheless, we shall fight under his banner for now. The alternative - aiding those fighting to place the emperor at our head - is worse. We will not permit a return to the civil wars caused by an Imperial family left free to engage its ambitions!

When I am quoted by future generations, I would have them say this: I'm gonna take my sword and shove it through your face!

An Empire in Black and Gold: The Beginning.

I bet no one can say where that title comes from without google ...

You may find this map useful to check province and clan names.

As the game opens, the Aizu clan's goal of traditionalist traditionalism gets off to a fantastic start: a pop-up instructs us to raise our modernisation level by 1, ASAP. Gah! Fine. We won't get far without some economic tech and buildings anyway. Grumble, grumble. We'll aim to reach the next level via economic means, and maybe a single cadet school to open up another recruitment slot. After we strip out the interior we can use it for a fitting purpose, like as a storage dump for muddy sandals. That will put us in a better position to raise sizable amounts of samurai when our income is better than 3 grains of rice and a bent button. For now, though, austerity is the name of the game (is it? I thought it was 'Fall of the Samurai? (Shhh! That's not a very encouraging name!)) and we will mostly field levies. As muskets were good enough for Oda Nobunaga and his contemporaries, they are just barely good enough for us despite their nasty "Pwoof!!" noise and gouts of smoke. We will field a small number of levy infantry: no more than six per army.

Our starting army does need a bit of an overhaul. It's a motley collection of random units. I wouldn't want to clean a barn with them, let alone seek out cut-price fertiliser for my farms. That means it's going to be several turns before we're in a position to attack anyone. That's good - if we tried to attack now we'd get spanked by the defensive force the enemy build up in the meantime.

The Aizu start at war with the Utsunomiya. We hate them! Problem: they are a very long walk away. That makes us hate them more! We have a shinsengumi nearby, and he may be able to carry out some action against them. Does that make us hate them less? No! Not until they are fertilising our rice fields with their rotting corpses!

But wait! That resource map linked up above? It has some useful information. Namely, this:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attac...9&d=1335184330
Circled, riches beyond our wildest dreams.

The green areas are fertile or very fertile farmland. That means a minimum of triple income from whatever farm building is present in the province. That means crazy money! Fertile farms are one of the best sources of income in this campaign, and considering how much samurai cost we'll need as much cash as we can possible grab. Look at how much greenery we are surrounded by - we could be rich, filthy stinking rich! Rich enough to afford an entire stack of samurai, even! There's just one teeny, tiny problem. Those provinces are mostly occupied by our friends. The Utsunomiya have a crappy 'meagre' farming province, and it's infested with the smelly railway special. Blergh!

Do we need friends? Hmm, I don't know. We don't need a bad reputation. But we do need money. And friends sometimes get in the way, squishing us all up into a little ball until we go sailing off to conquer the far side of the world. Perhaps we could try to make revolts everywhere? Then we could move in without looking bad. Or perhaps we should play it straight-up and not go after anyone sharing our allegiance to the Shogunate? We could gather up Utsunomiya-land and the neighbouring Imperialist fertile province, clear up anything else which is opportunistic, then try to do a naval invasion of central Japan to grab the fertile provinces there.

The decision, dear readers, is in your hands. Try not to get me killed on turn 3 or this is going to be a very short AAR.

Did I mention that we should probably try to be quick? The longer we hang around, the more likely it is that the AI will field large numbers of bullet-making devices, thus turning us into black and gold Swiss cheese. But not too fast! Mass rebellions, bankruptcy, and over-stretched armies are a terribly ugly sight. Remember: traditionalism. It's all about pretty calligraphy and stuff. We don't do ugly in this campaign.

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Originally Posted by Trithemius

In my opinion (as a diverted history academic) I think part of the appeal of pre-industrial history is it is less familiar to us; if history is another country then the further back, the more exotic it is.

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In my case, it's the shift in the social landscape which makes the difference between interesting and not. In earlier periods, the set-up is very personal. A king needed to know his vassals and be known by them. Their personalities influenced a lot. Internal and external politics were all about the people involved. Same with warfare, and everything else. Melee and bow combat takes different training and personality traits to gunpowder combat. I find it interesting to see the training of the dedicated warriors, and to see how that then influenced their lives, and the lives of those around them. For example, the knight trained to fight in his particular style, and needing a fief of land to support his costs as well as a lord to grant it, and then the lives of those who lived on his fief working towards the sole end of supporting him in that lifestyle.

In the later periods politics and society at that point become less personal. The stage is larger, the rulers less absolute, the ideology changed. It all loses that close human element.

Any of your neighbours diplomatically isolated? I'd go for a neighbour with the 'ambitious' trait if possible, but otherwise, the early turns should be about aggressive opportunism, I think.

This sounds like fun.
Those northern provinces look tempting, but they're so far away from everything, and I think half of them are telegraph provinces.
Since you're playing a short campaign, you might want to consider attacking south and west - you'll be closer to Yamashiro and Musashi when Realm Divide hits.
I played a short Aizu campaign last week and Realm divide came pretty quickly. My early army was half spear, half levi infantry and it worked pretty well. Also, I was pretty surprised at how slowly my modernization increased. I researched all the Level 1 techs but couldn't research level 2 techs until I built some buildings.
Musashi might be a good place to have a forward base of operations. Hitachi has that copper mine that will give you some money.
You may want to have provinces on the South and East coastline only to limit the area of your naval operations.

I don't see how ironclads with seam engines and explosive shells are incomparable with a traditional campaign. They're warriors in armor shooting fire arrows.

You motivated me to start a traditional campaign on VH. I'm sure it can be done.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

I don't see how ironclads with seam engines and explosive shells are incomparable with a traditional campaign. They're warriors in armor shooting fire arrows.

You motivated me to start a traditional campaign on VH. I'm sure it can be done.

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Okay, I lost. An ally turned on me.

I hate that this game is such a resource hog. WTH?

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Originally Posted by Sp4

Yeah some of the stuff they have in the vanilla Shogun 2 is pretty mind boggling... Climbing walls instead of ladders? Carving castles into rocks instead of building them somewhere convenient... Cannons made from wood... total lack of shields xD This is almost like watching some aliens.

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Actually Japanese fortress construction is really fascinating! They independently developed a lot of the same principles of fortress design as Early Modern Europeans did.
(One of my big gripes with Empire was the lack of amazing forts, especially since it was such a feature of post-Military Revolution warfare.)

I would first deal with the Utsunomiya. After a short consolidation period try to take Hitachi province. It is fertile and has copper. Then expand south and west with a goal of North Shinano for the silk. Those two trade goods should help with cash flow. If you manage to get Koga (clay) that would help in the long run.

I concur with that advice! Kazusa which is fairly nearby has Iron which is probably handy for Traditionalists - and if you are going for North Shinano's Silk then consider South Shinano's Tea too!
The only really hard-to-get resource is Coal, and you probably don't need it as an anti-industrialist anyway.

There are also a couple of Smithing centres around, but the value of armour might be less if everyone is shooting guns at you? It might also be annoying to have to march armies from remote recruitment centres if you don't use railways too.

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I will use hard difficulty for the campaign map, and normal difficulty for battles.

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How does this work? I thought you can only change both at the same time?

Also one other thing. What determines wether you will have a general with a unit of revolver cav as their bodyguard or traditional, kata wielding, armour clad warriors?

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Originally Posted by Sp4

Also one other thing. What determines wether you will have a general with a unit of revolver cav as their bodyguard or traditional, kata wielding, armour clad warriors?

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I'm pretty sure it switches when you get to the third level of modernization.

I shall test that xD

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Originally Posted by ForzaFiori

I'm pretty sure it switches when you get to the third level of modernization.

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I can confirm that.
Keep your modernisation under level 3 and your general and his friends will still prance around in traditional armour.

It looks like we have a general consensus on how the opening stages of our war should be fought. I'll play through them and report back, ready to plan phase 2. It might take me a couple of days.

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Originally Posted by Sp4

How does this work? I thought you can only change both at the same time?

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On the new campaign screen, select hard difficulty. Then, when you land on the campaign map, press escape to bring up the menu. Slect 'game options' and look for a setting with a name like 'battle difficulty'. Sorry, I can't recall the specific names and I'm not on my desktop so I can't check.

Well, the computer found a way to defeat me: the game will not load after this week's hotfixes. It doesn't give an error message, it doesn't get labelled as not responding by task manager, it just sits there loading forever. Usually takes a little under 2 minutes to load at the start; I've left it for as long as 10 minutes without any change. I've verified the game's files, no joy. Gah!

I suppose this is one way to play a low-tech campaign. Now, who's got a set of samurai wargame miniatures? :tongueg:

Leave it loading for longer.. can take about 20 minutes. It's something to do with stuff they did not tell us about in the patch =p It will do it once and then go back to normal loading time.

I admire your idea, but if you try this on brutal difficulty, you will be erased in few turns.
I play this since good old STW, I even played and finished the first buggy version. But I have never finished a campaign in S2tw :no:

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

New rule: If I see a foreign veteran and assassination is feasible, it must be attempted. Feasible is defined as: above a 35% success rating, a suitable agent of my own within range to strike on that turn or the next, enough money that it won't get in the way of very important plans. Tom Cruise must die!

I started writing, and decided to change direction a little. Back to the beginning. I think the new idea works better. You'll see ...

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I object! You should try to assasinate any Foreign Veteran, unless its name is Nathan Algren.
If you find Nathan Algren, send your Daimyo's Geisha sister to convert him :laugh4:

Phew! Yesterday's patch has fixed the game. I've got an hour or so today, I'll see how far I can get.

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Originally Posted by Yesugey

I admire your idea, but if you try this on brutal difficulty, you will be erased in few turns.
I play this since good old STW, I even played and finished the first buggy version. But I have never finished a campaign in S2tw :no:

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If I played on legendary I'd probably die before the mid-game. The save limitations on that mode always make me nervous about losing the save file to an accident, and I end up playing poorly because I'm not concentrating. I should be able to give a good showing on hard though; I've already won several campaigns on that level, one of which was in FotS. The handicaps will make this game quite a bit harder than a normal FotS game though. If I die, I hope it's entertaining for people to watch.

If you want to see a real Shogun genius in action, take a look at Maltz's legendary difficulty Mori game report. He's scarily good at the game, and he gives a lot of advice in-between the story sections. It's very educational reading. I've learned a lot from him myself.

I played a few turns, made some progress. We've already reached our first hiccough: the Jozai.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attac...9&d=1335981268
That's the current situation. It's turn ... 9? 10? Something like that.

I have allied with Nagaoka and Sendai in order to keep them off my back. The Jozai have sprawled across three provinces, sprinting out the gate very aggressively across territories we wanted. They are currently rated very friendly and are shogunate in loyalty. That prompts two questions: how badly do we want those provinces, and do we trust them not to flip sides? I could ally with them and head in a different direction, or proceed with the original plan and risk getting ganged up on.

The pink people in Kozuke are Imperialist pig-dog-chicken-scum! War is only a matter of time. That province is not so appealing; it's poor and it will stretch our puny army far too thin. Fighting them gains us very little. However they are well positioned to dogpile us in the flank if we pursue the Jozai. I could attempt to cause a revolt in the province, get it to fall into rebel hands. The odds of success are very low however, and money is tight. The Yonezawa in Uzen are a little perilous too. Whilst still Shogunate in loyalty, they refuse to trade with me and are becoming increasingly unfriendly. War is an increasing possibility. I currently have no army to cover that border! Uzen is quite a nice province, excellent farmlands and a special which grants bonuses to traditional units.

I'm currently making a shade over 1,200 koku per turn. A level 3 farm is 3 turns from completion in our capital, and a cottage industry is 2 turns from completion in our new province. Both will boost our income significantly. I have also researched the first economic tech, and and almost done with the one which grants a 10% boost to farming income.

Army replenishment rates are punitive. Our precious starting samurai units can only replace 5 men per turn. Including them in the heaviest areas of combat is critical to our success, so this slowness makes our situation quite fragile. We need access to a dojo ASAP. My original thought was to place the dojo in Hitachi as that will make it easy to load new units onto ships ... but it might be nice to have a dojo prior to taking on the Jozai. Our starting province still has a semi-useless police station; I'm tempted to demolish it and replace it with either a dojo or an income building.

So, generals, how should we react to the situation which has evolved?

I would turtle in Shimotsuke, build a decent stronghold and station some troops there. Create two stacks of army and go north, taking Miyagi, Uzen, Iwate and Ugo. Eventually Aomori, to secure borders from Matsumae, not sure how much of a stink they will put up. If Jozai attack, you can lure them to your stronghold and kill them off, but in manual battles. Once you got the four above mentioned provinces (all fertile provinces, mind you!) you should have a substantial financial backing to continue your conquest towards south. However, this all depends on the strength of armies in the said provinces.

Slightly off topic, but how do you determine how many units per turn you can train in one province? I started of with Jozai in my last campaign, and I could train three units simultaneously. Several turns later, I could train only two at the same time. What factors are in that equation, except the size of the city (or was it the fort)?

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Originally Posted by Voigtkampf

Slightly off topic, but how do you determine how many units per turn you can train in one province? I started of with Jozai in my last campaign, and I could train three units simultaneously. Several turns later, I could train only two at the same time. What factors are in that equation, except the size of the city (or was it the fort)?

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It's based on the troop recruitment buildings. The castle provides the 1 slot every province has. A cadet school, dojo, and cannon range will all add 1 more slot as soon as they are constructed. Upgrading buildings does not increase the slots available. The capital always has one extra slot. I think there's one event which provides a temporary extra slot.

I think you should scout Jozai with your agent and take them out if you have the better army. You don't want them expanding to the West and taking YOUR rightful provinces (esp. Musashi). :)

Is Uzen the purple province? As a troop production province, it would only be useful if you were using your navy to take provinces on the the North coast. Walking troops from Uzen will take a long time and this is a short campaign. Those northern provinces are so far away from everything without a railroad. As a money making province it's a good idea, as long as your neighbors stay friendly.

I still like the idea of attacking South and West and creating a troop production province near Musashi.
I really like the idea of having the clump of provinces around Musashi and Hitachi as your core because they are fairly small and it will take fewer turns to move troops around.

edit - ultimately, I think you should first expand into the area where you want your core production facilities.

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

If you want to see a real Shogun genius in action, take a look at Maltz's legendary difficulty Mori game report. He's scarily good at the game, and he gives a lot of advice in-between the story sections. It's very educational reading. I've learned a lot from him myself.

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Thanks for the link, I will definitely check that. I think I know my problem, Im blitzing like I did in the old TW series. We'll see.

Two very different strategies! I'll give it another day to see if a third general arrives to break the deadlock.

This is half the fun - I know what I'd do, but that's not necessarily what others would do. Playing with occasional reader input means I cannot stick to my comfortable old strategies.

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Originally Posted by phred

Is Uzen the purple province?

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Yes, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Yesugey

Thanks for the link, I will definitely check that. I think I know my problem, Im blitzing like I did in the old TW series. We'll see.

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Blitizing is still possible, but it's harder now. You need to hit the right notes with your research, unit production, and expansion rates. Fail to do so, and your empire will collpase or the AI will roll over you because you lack the resources to resist. The Oda clan are the kings of the blitz - their superior ashigaru let them shred the opposition until the AI begins fielding pure samurai armies. The last patch introduced 40v40 battles, and that made the Oda ashigaru rush even more powerful. Jarmam has written a good breakdown of that, if you're interested. Rushing with other clans is harder.

I'm a slow, steady player by nature. I couldn't rush if my life depended upon it! :gring:



I wanted to include a few other pictures in the report post. Technical problems with the org's image hosting service made it impossible for me to upload them. Now that the problem is solved, here's the picture which sets the flavour for the campaign:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attac...4&d=1336239450
Beauty and destruction ...

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Originally Posted by frogbeastegg

here's the picture which sets the flavour for the campaign:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/attac...4&d=1336239450
Beauty and destruction ...

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Is this good or bad for the Aizu?
Either way the following report will be eventful.

Apologies. I started a new job on the 8th and the amount of things I've needed to sort out has been rather insane. If I don't get chance to post an update before the weekend, I'll definitely post one during.

Hi, just thought I'd share some thoughts I had while playing my own No-Gun campaign (just on hard difficulty, not Legendary I'm not as courageous as you haha):

• I think it is possible to beat the campaign without ever going up a modernization level (At least, that's what I'm trying). The traditional dojo provides recruitment slots, and the traditionalists have an economic building, the Inn. Add to that farm upgrades, plus income from various copper mines, iron mines, etc and you have the makings of a respectable economy.
• In the early game I mostly built Yari Kachi, with a few Matchlock Kachi to back them up. The Yari Kachi have good enough morale to survive a few gunfire volleys and if they get into melee with early-game infantry they usually prevail. Spear Levys are pretty terrible in my opinion, their morale value means they'll probably run before they reach the enemy and their melee attack is only a little bit better than Levy Infantry.
• Bows have both a longer range than guns and can arc over obstacles unlike guns, which gives you a good advantage in sieges. On the attack you can simply snipe the enemy without fear of retaliation, and on the defence you can hit the enemy long before they can hit back.
• Kisho ninjas are great for evening out a fight by taking out artillery and Gatling guns.
• In the mid game at least, in an open battle, you can't go wrong by massing Katana Kachis and just charging at the enemy! Like Yari Kachi, they have good enough morale to keep going forward into gunfire and even if only half makes it to the enemy they will devastate them.

Well, enough rambling, hope you find this useful. Good luck!

Welcome @telas.

It seems your entire tactics revolve around 'the glorius charge'. So I assume defensive battles are a problem.
Also can a traditional army of the same size/value prevail against a modern one?
Artillery are incredibly important in FotS. How do you minimize the damage from enemy artillery?

A Tom Cruise campaign? :D

Welcome, telas, and thanks for sharing your experience. :bow:

I'm sorry about the delay in progressing this game. :embarassed: The commute for my new job is proving to be insane - I'm reliant on public transport and the bus service is so useless that I'm now looking for a safe route to walk the 4 miles home! I've only really got time to play games at the weekend, and the last couple of weekends have been busy.

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Originally Posted by Peasant Phill

Welcome @telas.

It seems your entire tactics revolve around 'the glorius charge'. So I assume defensive battles are a problem.
Also can a traditional army of the same size/value prevail against a modern one?
Artillery are incredibly important in FotS. How do you minimize the damage from enemy artillery?

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The artillery can be taken out quickly, providing you have "kisho ninja" units. They can be deployed at the start of the battle, outside (white borders will appear) the usual battle prep area (yellow box). And use their stealth ability to run behind artillery units, and hack through them. In an attack, you will have to do this with precision, as the artillery will be close to the main army and your ninja's will be vulnerable, so a massed charge with your main melee army, while ninjas creeping behind the artys might reduce your casualties and save your ninjas getting overwhelmed by the main enemy army, while they try to eliminate the arty units.

p.s: presently playing as the Republic of Satsuma, N/N (I'm not an elite player), but heavily depend on samurai and ninja units for Castle siege attacks. I kinda like the mixed army of 4-6 Katana/yari + 1-2 Kisho Ninja + 1-2 Bow kachi + 4-6 Rep. Infant + 2 Armstrong + 1-2 Gatling and rest Yari Ki :)

I would give this scenario a shot too very soon.

I am not sure if I would use the same rules of @frogbeastegg though. Shogunate never abandoned guns and technologies. And Spear Levy is totally useless even against Levy infantry. So I might not be using all-nontech units.

But I might always try to be under Development Research Level 1, for example. I think it's impossible because you advance after you complete the tree, but nevertheless. And all my decisions must be simple minded and conservative. (No alliance with nanbans, always pick the side of locals etc.)

We will see, if I lay low and make agreements, and wait for long time before take action... Why not? I believe it's possible to swarm the enemy from the sides with Kachi's, since AI makes mistakes.

I will take a look after I finish my Choshu Campaign, which turned greatly.

Interesting.. Coincidentally, yesterday I engaged with an army full of Shogitai, including 4 Yari Ki, 2 matchlocks, 1 bow and 1 Katana Samurai and 2 Kisho Ninjas, with my Line Infantry & Conscript Riflemen based army. And I lost the battle, even though I used kneel fire and Ganbatte ability..

I preferred a single line firing range, because I was sure that kneel fire will win the day. So when they get close, I shot one or two volleys and killed most of them, but after they got close, it turned to a bloodbath just like in the movie "The Last Samurai".

They surely got decimated too, 250 survivors on their side to 200 of mine. And I played very badly. But at the end they won.

I know it's impossible to say "No Gun Shogun" is possible only by the result of one battle.. But there sure is hope!

Looking forward to another update further down your campaign path, Yesugey.

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

Looking forward to another update further down your campaign path, Yesugey.

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Thanks mate, my current campaign with Choshu actually gives me a lot of hints to how to succeed.

Yesterday I experienced that archers still decimates line infantry. They are short in numbers but they rain death from longer range and even they might be losing on one-to one, they have a good change of winning on army-scale battles. they may cause mass rout by hitting the enemy unit by unit. Especially with the threat of Horsemen. (Not the attack itself, but the threat of it. I believe only appearance of them at the rear would worry the enemy enough)

I think I might allow myself to only upgrade the techs not modern look alike. Like farms, or taxes maybe.

I decided to allow myself to use the wooden cannons though. They look primitive and useless enough to be allowed :laugh4:

I gave it a try with Aizu on Legendary, and it looks very promising.

At turn 1, I disbanded all my riflemen, including matchlocks. I trained 7-8 Spear levies instead. It was not disastrous at all, in fact I was still able to win the battle against two Imperial clans, ally with my northern neighbors and we destroyed several clans.

I made a mistake by having one I just beat as vassal so I might be starting again. But looks very promising.

But of course, I must be careful, still. I see even the riflemen with worst skills is able to kill one third of a unit in single volley, it means one mistake, and my army would melt under fire.

Ok everything turned out awesome for me. I now have 3 provinces around turn 40, only by using spearmen.

You see, you get a lot of sympathy bonuses because of the Shogunate-Imperial thing. Once you get strong alliances thanks to +75 allegiance bonus, even your fellas cut each other's throat around you, they don't even think lose friendliness towards you.

Moreover, even you don't use guns, your alliance members do. I am in completely safe zone, surrounded with Shogunate clans. I had to go Aizu to the small island close to Tosa, just to attack someone.

So after I survived from few critical turns, looks like Shogunate might win the battle without my help anyway.

I had to use the ships, as FrostbeatEgg already mentioned. You can't move your army or maintain your facilities because of bombardments. So ignore I use ships to move around, block passages or sink other ships. (I don't use Naval bombardment on Campaign Map of Battle Map of course)

I am fighting against Tosa now. If I don't make a mistake, soon No Gun Shogun will become real.

Attachment 17376

It's a battle I played myself. I was almost losing it, but killed the general at the last minute. I had the number advantage though.

But the game gone crazy, as usual. After eliminating Jozai, Edo, the strongest Shogunate clan went Imperial! It's obvious that there is an algorithm forces the clan to change allegiance, just to make the game harder. (It actually makes the game annoying.) Now I am at war with Edo and few other strongest Shogunate Clans.

My only hope is that once I become the Vanguard, they will rally under my flag and things will make sense again. We will see.

* I hit a problem for the first time: What if they attack my castle and I have riflemen garrison? Answer: Bayonets! I switched them to melee mode and they are just another regular infantry now.

* My modernization level is still at 2 around turn 55, thanks to all Shogunate buildings lowering it. Unfortunately after all researches done, it will jump me to 3.

* Another big clan with 8 provinces turned from Shogunate to Imperial! The game does that annoying feature, because I was basically won and it want it to change. I think it will stop once I become Vanguard. (Thanks to the "Too Late to change allegiance" event) I wish I knew that before!

* I am not limiting the build of "Cottage Industry". Yes it gives you some modernization, but it's an essential money maker, and it's just cottage. I always upgrade it with the one doesn't provide modernization though. And I always pick Gambling Den, not Market for my Geisha House.

* The autoresult solves the battles against my odds drastically. I think that's because I have no archers. But since the archers are of little use in self-played battles, I rather play the battles myself.

* I am using all techs on ships. I thought I might not use the fireball upgrade, but then decided to use it because I was winning all the battles anyway, it only takes longer to win.. It's an issue actually, because I think the game is buggy and my ships resists ten times more of a cannon balls because I am able to attack and repair at the same time.

* I haven't seen a battle "Full modern against full katana steel" yet. Because I am still fighting with my Shogunate neighbors, and they train Shogitai more than I do. I expect that type of army from Satsuma, once I become Vanguard and face with him.

I don't want to look like a guy talking with himself by posting over and over, (Like our helpful friend Druzhina from Medieval 2 Total War forum.) But I must put a screenshot to show the situation.

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As you can see, my realm is divided by too. At west, I am keeping Satsuma at bay with my navy (I just lost a 202 men ship, but she took 8 enemy ships to bottom of the sea with her.) Yoko still bombards my docks brutally, but I am holding them too. They have no intention to send an invasion army so far. That's good news.

In the east, things look more promising. I beat 3 armies of the strongest clans around, by swarming with spearmen and cut down with swordsmen. Their pressure is high, but my new units are arrived to the field and soon I will advance again. It's only a matter of time that I take few more cities and become Vanguard. Only problem is the casualties. But I switch the units about to be depleted with the fresh ones close by. And I always send garrison riflemen as a cannon fodder.
I am disbanding Parrott Guns I captured. Don't want to lose my honor by using gunpowder.

Units trained from the Master Dojo starts with +5 Experience, which is an insane advantage. Before that I thought modern armies were extremely imbalanced because they have a foreign trainer. Moreover, I get %15 speed bonus trait for my general, I think it's an insane advantage too, since my army rely on getting close to the enemy as soon as possible.

Interestingly, Yari Kachi is more expensive than Katana Kachi. Looks like their morale is almost equal, armor difference is only one point. And better attack point of Katanas doesn't matter, since they will be slicing riflemen wearing coats instead of armor anyway. Is it possible that Yari Kachi is better? It's the same for Shogitai, their upkeep definitely doesn't worth the attack advantage.

Anyway that's all for now. I will continue playing whenever I have time.

I'm reading. I don't have FotS (yet), so I can't comment. Which colour is your faction on the screen print?

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

I'm reading. I don't have FotS (yet), so I can't comment. Which colour is your faction on the screen print?

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Thanks for being my audience mate. I hope frogbeastegg is ok with me taking over his topic. (Somehow I was reading it "FrostBeatEgg" the whole time)

I am black, Aizu. I started at Fukushima, one of the north-eastern regions. Only the Shogunate clans were left around me after few turns, then I migrated to invade Tosa (Red, which is my vassal now). Then Edo (White) converted to Imperial. I returned all the way back to invade him. I defeated Edo and made peace, but still figting with dark blue and light yellow neighbors of him. (All are Shogunate). During this whole conflict, the light blue at the the east invaded my beloved Aizu. It was Shogunate too. I am planning to not forgive him and not take him to my Vanguard team.

The other one turned allegiance is the big light blue at the center of the map. You can see how annoying this is :inquisitive: They have direct passage from island to island, so I shouldn't make any mistakes on naval combat or else they will march into my almost undefended islands.

You are in an unenviable position to be sure. Good luck - and stay true to tradition! :bow:

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

You are in an unenviable position to be sure. Good luck - and stay true to tradition! :bow:

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Thanks mate! I guess I am holding well so far, thanks to the diplomacy screen that gives a brief idea about any clan's army strength.

If I manage to hold firm against incoming Satsuma invasion, I will be fine. Then again, you never know: One landing would send me back to the stone age. We'll see.

I think I am around turn 100 now. The battle on sea didn't went well, and in the land doesn't look promising, despite several victories.

My western area is still quiet, no invasion fleet on the horizon. I see from the map that Satsuma is busy invading the mainland.

On the eastern area; I hold against the assault of the last army threatens my western flank. It was a Shogunate army of Odawara, consists of 5-6 "armored" Shogitai, 2 Kisho Ninjas and several Line Infantry, and Bow ki, etc. Yes they all were +2 armored, thanks to their province trained. I was almost sure that I will lose the battle, even I have only slight numerical advantage (1400 to 1700). My army was consists of only 2 Katana Samurai, a Bow Samurai and lots of Spearmen, because I was gambled and sent my brute force to invade Sampu (Light Green) and trusted the garrison levies in the castle to hold off an attack. (I have 9 garrison units there in total, and remember my riflemen swings their rifles like a club only.)

Here is the replay of the battle:
Attachment 17385

I think only "Stand & Fight" ability and very good defense bonuses on my General won the day. Here is the end of battle screenshot.

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All 6 units I lost are the Garrison levies. That's good news. Then I marched towards lord Odawara and took his province. He is now my Vassal too. My general also provides %15 speed to my men, so I was able to run them down before they flee.

Sampu also lost one more decisive battle and now I am assaulting him. My army is Half Katana-Half Spearmen and I have good numerical advantage. But my general is inexperienced, and the enemy has deadly Shogitai, Kisho Ninjas and 2 Parrot Guns which can change the fate of the battle.

Attachment 17387

I haven't decide to assault the castle yet though. I can march through Odawara to take Sampu settlements from behind. Then they might be surrendered anyway.

At the northern flank, Edo, which was still hostile to me, declared war again, as soon as he gathered a stack. No surprise there. Good thing he is getting invaded from the north so he will not give me a headache. But the dark green which was my last ally, also broke his alliance, and declared war next turn. Funny thing is, he was Shogunate and "Very Friendly" with me. After just 2 turns, he is now hostile and at war. Ridiculous! Now I have officially no strong allies left. Let's hope no deadly strong stack appears on my front before I become Vanguard.

On sea, the enemies comes with stacks now. I was able to deal with them 1 against 3 or 4, but with that many ships bombing at the same time... My several ships exploded in half. I was downed to 3 ships in total, and my economy been hit hard. Good thing I always made the right economical decisions so I still have reasonable income. I have 4 or 5 ships now.

I get an event for "Modernization Level 3". Which probably means there is no chance holding yourself from advancing in the tech tree. Annoying to see my generals bodyguard downed from 30 to 12, since they will be holding their revolvers in their holster.

I noticed that I am not able to train +5 Honored samurai anymore. I wonder which general was providing such a trait? I would love to keep him in there.

Good news: I become Vanguard. Bad news. That didn't bring any sympathy.

On the west, land is still quiet but naval pressure is getting higher because they run away from my ships and blocking my ports in the next turn. It badly affects my income, but I will hold.

On the east, the thing I was dreading become reality: Turns out Edo was abandoned his own settlement to the enemy only to attack me. They easily took Shimosa. Moreover, an enemy stack landed on Kazusa, in order to assault next turn.

Then I got angry, and to get my only chance to become vanguard, risk all the rebellions and pushed to the west. I invaded Kai, Suruga and Totomi, forced light green to become my Vassal. and now I am officially become Vanguard.

But, so what? All Shogunate clans are still hostile. In legendary, they don't bargain before they lose all their armies. Plus there are 2 rebellions on my lands. I should be asking my vassals to attack my enemies though.

There is only one good news: The Edo marched on Kazusa, and captured it too. This sent back the landed army to his homeland :laugh4: I am delaying Edo with my Geisha to take my time building another army to hold him at bay.

The army of the dark green doesn't look so scary though. Only levies and spearmen. But I don't know what else is waiting as a surprise.

If I won't be able manage to hold the line, I will go frenzy and try to hold only a small portion of the map, and destroy all other clans by crushing their cities and left them to rebellion. We will see what happens.

On the sea, I am still losing ships. In 7-8 turn I will have armor piercing shells which will bring naval superiority and another window of opportunity until they catch up.

I am still fighting Shogunate more than Imperial. God, that's such a turmoil!

Here is an extremely important knowledge that I found out while searching forums:

"Every province has a citadel and a military port with 1 gun boat in it. This is important because it prevents the AI from doing naval invasions. A port with cannons prevents the AI from doing land invasions, but without that 1 ship in port the AI will simply attack the port and disable it. With the ship inside they would have to go into battle, and the AI is reluctant to do so. Even if they do your port cannons can do a lot of damage and win the match. Just keep that lone gunboat alive and the AI will often stop in its tracks and you can just wait for time to run out."

That makes perfect sense! If anyone blocks the port, you can go to battle screen with your gunboat and let the land cannons do the job. Wish I knew that before!

Excellent news! Turns out I wasn't Vanguard yet. It was offered next turn. Now I am officially the Vanguard, everyone who supports Shogunate is rallied around me. I took all the trade agreements, destroyed Edo by taking what's left of his cities.

Attachment 17403

Only exception is: I didn't forgive the Shogunate clan took my beloved Fukushima yet. :stwmean: They offered me peace for almost every turn, but I turned them down, and cut down their 1700 men-strong army in a small castle. Here is the start conditions and replay of the battle.

Attachment 17402

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He has many +4 experienced Levy Infantry, but I have Armored Katana Kachi and everything. I lost 5 units in this battle, because I preferred to climb the walls instead of burning the castle. Huge mistake on my side.

Attachment 17404
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There is only one army left between me and Aizu, in few turns I will get my capital back and accept their peace request.

To focus crushing the Imperials.

But the problem grows in the west: Satsuma has been chosen as Vanguard, and while he doesn't bothering me, he pushed through the mainland, and crushed 2 of my allies on the way by capturing 7 provinces. When I become Vanguard, Imperials were not much of a threat and the odds were highly on my side. But now I think the my chance of victory is 50-50. Maybe less.

Let's hope my blind ambition for Aizu won't cost me the game.

Since my armies are all far away from them, I am planning to train many ships and block all the docks of the Satsuma and the other Imperial rebels. This way they will leave my economy alone, and won't courageously send invasion fleets. Let's hope my allies hold before I get there.

P.S. : For a short moment, I thought of choosing independence and play "No Gun: Republican" :flame:
I wonder how would that be? It may be possible with Jozai or Satsuma?

I finally managed to beat Satsuma. No Gun Shogun on Legendary, with Aizu, is possible.

It was a lot of fun playing with swordsmen, thanks to AI can't handle with gunpowder warfare, I was able to get close and give the enemy a bloodbath. I like to share few memories:



Attachment 17446
I was trying to eliminate Edo, while Satsuma press his charge on mainland and crushing two of my allies with Yodo, the other Imperial Clan.

Attachment 17445
The revenge battle, to recapture my beloved Aizu. They literally begged me to become ally for 10 turns. I always rejected them. Even that might cost me the game.

Attachment 17444
Recapture of Aizu.

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Situation after making peace with all other Shogunate clans, in order to focus on the invasion of Satsuma.

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Well I don't think the Shogunate thinks the Slavery is barbaric, but since it's the choice against modernization, I chose it. Only negative thing I get for being against westerners is a -%25 trade penalty for 12 turns. Not a big deal.

Attachment 17441
To stop Satsuma advance, I cut the connection between Kyushu and the Mainland. That helped a lot. Also I blocked all his ports, sent all my Shinobi and Shimotsuke to create chaos in his hinterlands. At the end, Satsuma was a place in ruins.

Attachment 17440
My first foothold in Kyushu. Satsuma was still well guarded.

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General situation between me and the others. I had 3 vassals, and they were suprisingly helpful, especially by invading small islands.

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It was a great battle! Satsuma besieged my foothold with many Armored Line infantry and Parrott guns. My army was half Spear levies, and the enemy have large number advantage. (More than %50) I sallied and cut both armies with a devastating charge, which you can watch it from the replay.
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For an army and general this inexperienced, it is a great result.

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The destruction of Yodo! They gave me a lot of worry, thank to the naval blockade they couldn't set foot to my small island. And they destroyed few stacks of Wakayama before being overrun. Now they are gone, and Satsuma is almost alone with his two island allies.

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Another push from Satsuma, after that they lost this battle, they lost the upper hand and get defensive.
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The ninjas and my fully upgraded Shingensumi wreaking havoc behind enemy lines.

Here is a replay from a battle I played in order to help the advance of my allies. I was still worried about then getting annihilated by the experienced soldiers of Satsuma, (They took like 8 provinces in 10 turns) so I created a stack and sent to battle without a general. They did good job though.

Attachment 17433
Noticed the small island at the southwest? Sado got it. Sado is the small island at the northeast! :laugh4: When I landed to capture it, I saw that Sado was also came all the way to get the island for himself, but just couldn't find the guts to do battle, hanging around. After my landing, the Tanegashima attacked my army and defeated. And before I get control, Sado just marched into the capital and captured it! I didn't even get mad! :hair:
Unfortunately Tsu lost the province captured, because the most experienced Satsuma stacks were positioned there. Putting your Shingensumi to new captured city gives you the chance to advance forward, catch the enemy unguarded. Here is the replay:
Attachment 17448

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My nice half-stack consists of armored Katana, Shogitai and a Samurai Hero. Unfortunately the game was over before I use the Hero.

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Seems like the fate of the war is almost certain. Even Jozai took a bite from Satsuma.

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The last stand of Satsuma. They have around 1400 highly experienced Line infantry there, but me with my allies were marching with more than 5000 men in total. Here is the replay:
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Some of those poor guys fighting for Satsuma have +8 experience.. But couldn't stop overwhelming numbers. They were the stacks I was afraid most. I don't know what would be the result if I wasn't landed to their back, and not assassinate their 5 star generals.

Attachment 17430
That's the total result screen. (By the way I didn't do any naval bombardment nor battlefield bombardment during the game. I only bombarded a military port, which was blocking me from landing my troops.

Congratulations Yesugey!

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

Congratulations Yesugey!

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:bow: