Pakistan Finds Doctor Guilty of Treason

"A Pakistani doctor who helped the US track down Osama bin Laden was sentenced to 33 years in prison on Wednesday for conspiring against the state, officials said, a verdict that is likely to further strain the country's relationship with Washington." www.smh.com.au

"no right to legal representation, to present material evidence or cross-examine witnesses."

So he is considered a traitor because he was helping a foreign spy agency. Not sure what happens normally to someone who supplies intelligence to an allied country for an operation hunting an enemy of the state. But I'm pretty sure being declared a traitor seems a bit over the top. Mind you I'm not sure any western country would have neccesarily acted differently anymore.

But I do question whose side is Pakistan really on? After all the Taliban had a lot is support from Pakisan before 9/11. How much of a proxy agency were they post 9/11?

I'm not really sure about the terminology regarding "treasonous" crimes in anglo-saxon or Pakistan's legal system. Western countries would at least have bothered to hold a trial for him, but like the guy Hoahguy mentioned a few weeks back (a jewish American who sold classified information to Israel, but also to other countries), the same acts would lead to imprisonment most western countries, probably all. That is, assuming Pakistan's side of the story is the correct one.

Which leads to the questions:
A) did the doctor realise he was working for the CIA, or was he indirectly working for them without knowing?
B) if he did know who he ultimately worked for, did he know for what purpose he was comparing DNA samples?

Whose side are they on? The government, and the ISI in particular is rife with factionalism. Pakistan is schizophrenic and on everyone's side, and therefore on no side in particular.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

"A Pakistani doctor who helped the US track down Osama bin Laden was sentenced to 33 years in prison on Wednesday for conspiring against the state, officials said, a verdict that is likely to further strain the country's relationship with Washington." www.smh.com.au

"no right to legal representation, to present material evidence or cross-examine witnesses."

So he is considered a traitor because he was helping a foreign spy agency. Not sure what happens normally to someone who supplies intelligence to an allied country for an operation hunting an enemy of the state. But I'm pretty sure being declared a traitor seems a bit over the top. Mind you I'm not sure any western country would have neccesarily acted differently anymore.

But I do question whose side is Pakistan really on? After all the Taliban had a lot is support from Pakisan before 9/11. How much of a proxy agency were they post 9/11?

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Well, in all fairness, helping a foreign spy agency pretty much defines treason towards the state, no?


Would you in the US be comfortable with a person helping a foreign spy agency catch an US international war criminal? But then, the USA has not even signed the treaty about subjecting their war criminals to the international court, so I know, moot point anyway.

Technically the Unites States of America have no international war criminals, as you are not subjects of international law in this case.

What was that thing about throwing stuff around in melted-sand surroundings?

Just because the USA thinks he's a "good guy" as he's helped them means nothing. Frankly it is stupefying how events are always viewed through this prism.

America killed people in Pakistan with no jurisdiction. As @Kadagar_AV mentioned, they always have their own set of rules and seem perplexed why the rest of the world doesn't "get it". He's a traitor. Traitors should be locked up, and if the evidence is incontrovertible, shot.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Pakistan is within their rights, but I feel horrible the Doctor. Its obvious that Pakistan is not our ally in fact, but only in lip service. Since the damage has already been done, the right thing to do would be to send Seal Team 6 back in for the Doctor. Sorry Pakistan, tough luck.

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Well, with the oxymoron being the US military intelligence, what would you do when the team got shot down?

Drop some bombs?

Send in the army?

Nuke?

All because a sovereign nation criminalized a citizen who worked for an agency of another state?

*and people wonder why people wonder*

Do not get me wrong here, I am no big fan of UBL.

I am no big fan of the US either.

In fact, I am no big fan of overly conservative forces at large.

However, let us have some perspective here.

With this doctor, there are really only 2 possible reasoning's:

1. He thought Usama Bin Laden was a friend of the state - but worked with foreign operatives to get him caught. Thus he would be a traitor.

2. He thought Usama Bin laden was an enemy of the state - but instead of helping his state he helped a foreign power. Thus he would be a traitor.


I can't see a theoretical where he is not an enemy of the state.

If the USA cared about him so much, they should have helped him escape before it was publicly known. Seal Team Six should have helped him out some weeks ago already. To let it all go public will only result in scorn for the US.

Everyone should have seen this coming, and the US should have expedited his departure from Pakistan. The guy probably did not want to leave his home country, and not sure how long he has been in custody, but this should have been accounted for before the raid even started.

Yes, Pakistan is a jerk for this.

And yes, the US failed this informant, just like we failed all of our interpeters in Iraq and will fail our intepreters in Afghanistan who will never have a ticket to the US. Just like we failed the Kurds in 92. Typical one-sided, selfish, short-term tunnel vision by the US. Congrats.

We're in the process of doing *the same* to Bradley Manning, and he did much less than help armed foreign soldiers sneak in and kill somebody.

CR

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Do not get me wrong here, I am no big fan of UBL.

I am no big fan of the US either.

In fact, I am no big fan of overly conservative forces at large.

However, let us have some perspective here.

With this doctor, there are really only 2 possible reasoning's:

1. He thought Usama Bin Laden was a friend of the state - but worked with foreign operatives to get him caught. Thus he would be a traitor.

2. He thought Usama Bin laden was an enemy of the state - but instead of helping his state he helped a foreign power. Thus he would be a traitor.


I can't see a theoretical where he is not an enemy of the state.

If the USA cared about him so much, they should have helped him escape before it was publicly known. Seal Team Six should have helped him out some weeks ago already. To let it all go public will only result in scorn for the US.

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In a country where corruption courses through it's veins, I'm not surprised the doctor sought help from a foreign power. If the doctor spoke to the Pakistani authorities, I doubt they would've done anything.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

We're in the process of doing *the same* to Bradley Manning, and he did much less than help armed foreign soldiers sneak in and kill somebody.

CR

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Maybe we can do a prisoner trade.

Oddly enough, there is talk that the wikileaks debacle may have played a part in exposing this doctor.

I don't understand why we work to bring this Chinese dissident over but we hung this guy out to dry. It's not like he would have had a hard time crossing into Afghanistan, where we could have given him a ride out. Crap like this will dissuade future informants from helping us out, as it well should

So all I got from this thread is that people are criticizing nation states for acting like nation states. Is that correct?

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

So all I got from this thread is that people are criticizing nation states for acting like nation states. Is that correct?

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It sounds more like people are criticising the US government for not expecting nation states to act like nation states.

American Cuts Aid in Retaliation

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A US senate committee has voted to cut Pakistan's aid by $1m for each of the 33 years of a prison sentence given to a doctor for helping the CIA to track down Osama bin Laden.
[...]
The Senate appropriations committee has already slashed foreign aid to Pakistan from the $2bn proposed by Barack Obama to just $800m from October 1, in part because of across-the-board budget cuts, but also because of frustration with Pakistan. The additional $33m reduction will come from military aid. But it is likely to be restored if Afridi is released. The US has given Pakistan more than $18bn in aid since the 9/11 attacks.

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First off, America shouldn't be giving them military aid in the first place and at least this is better than cutting other forms of aid. I'm also curious if perhaps Pakistan was looking non-to-kindly on those helping the US in the first place since the initial cut. $1.2bn is a lot of money.

It's no secret that Pakistans anti-insurgency status quo has not changed on their western border. Ever. The money we send them goes to build up on the Indian front, and goes into the pockets of the residence kleptocracy. Withholding military financial aid will not make ANY difference on the western Pakistan front. Zero.


We gonna cut back even more as soon as we can get a long term renewal with Kyrg. the tit is about to dry up with pakistan

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

We gonna cut back even more as soon as we can get a long term renewal with Kyrg. the tit is about to dry up with pakistan

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I hope so. We've had far too familiar relations with them since India decided to flirt with communism some decades back.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

I hope so. We've had far too familiar relations with them since India decided to flirt with communism some decades back.

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Good thing that didn't get very serious. Our politicians have always been doing crazy things like that.
Luckily they were too crazy to become communists.

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Originally Posted by rajpoot

Good thing that didn't get very serious. Our politicians have always been doing crazy things like that.
Luckily they were too crazy to become communists.

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I fairness I think it was in their best interest back then. Plus they were the targets of a massive misinformation campaign. It would have been hard to align with the U.S. and Europe during the Vietnam War.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

I fairness I think it was in their best interest back then. Plus they were the targets of a massive misinformation campaign. It would have been hard to align with the U.S. and Europe during the Vietnam War.

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Maybe. I confess that I do not know enough to judge them. Nonetheless, I've always felt that the Non-Alignment policy we followed back then cause more harm than good. And then eventually tried to curry favour with the wrong side.
Had India decided to align with USA back then, probably a lot of problems this region faced and faces today could've been avoided to some extent. And it's not as if we're not doing that now.
Better late than never I guess.

India has far more to offer any country in an alliance and trade agreement that Pakistan WILL EVER have.

The Great Floods of 2010, where Pakistan showed it was completely incapable of caring for its own people during a time of mitigatable disaster and had to cry for help from NATO, created a political conspiracy theory that persists to this day that INDIA was the cause of the floods, despite being on the opposite side of the country in which the flooding occurred. People used this theory to rally support and get elected.

Part of me wants the US to help India expand back to the size of the Maurya Empire.

pakistan is a joke and i hate that we give them money which they likely throw back across the border surreptitiously to kill our soldiers.

India is such a superior ally it isn't even funny and could serve as china's greatest Asian rival with some help and guidance from the US. But no.... we choose Pakistan. Does the American government think that India will forget or not notice we give Pakistan military aid? Instead of making friends with them and tossing our pseudo friend Pakistan to the side we distance ourselves year by year when we give their greatest foe money to build bombs.

And yes, I would love to send a covert operation into Pakistan, free this dude and also place a burning bag of dog **** on the governments doorstep. What afre they gonna do about it?

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What afre they gonna do about it?

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Use the nukes America helped them build? From what I've seen these guys are about as sane as Kim Jong Il

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Use the nukes America helped them build? From what I've seen these guys are about as sane as Kim Jong Il

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I don't think that they have missiles capable of reaching the US. At least, India only recently started with nukes capable of reaching Beijing (a much smaller distance), and I doubt that Pakistan is ahead of them by that much - if at all.

Not that I'd support such an action (that is; jailbreaking the doctor). Whatever the motivations of the doctor were, even if they were commendable, any government is well within its rights to prosecute foreign agents or their accomplices for what they're doing on their own soil. It seems to me that if the USA genuinely cared about his wellbeing they would have thought of a way of extracting him from Pakistan before he would get caught.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Do not get me wrong here, I am no big fan of UBL.

I am no big fan of the US either.

In fact, I am no big fan of overly conservative forces at large.

However, let us have some perspective here.

With this doctor, there are really only 2 possible reasoning's:

1. He thought Usama Bin Laden was a friend of the state - but worked with foreign operatives to get him caught. Thus he would be a traitor.

2. He thought Usama Bin laden was an enemy of the state - but instead of helping his state he helped a foreign power. Thus he would be a traitor.


I can't see a theoretical where he is not an enemy of the state.

If the USA cared about him so much, they should have helped him escape before it was publicly known. Seal Team Six should have helped him out some weeks ago already. To let it all go public will only result in scorn for the US.

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What definition of treason are you using?

Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aided or involved by such an endeavour.

Working with your nation's allies to track down their enemy and a nominal enemy of your own state doesn't really sound like overthrow or serious injury to the state of Pakistan. The only way Bin Laden's loss would be a "serious injury" to Pakistan is if he was an asset to the state. Pakistan has been walking on both sides of the Al Qaeda issue for a long time. If helping locate Bin Laden is treason, what does that say about Pakistan's seriousness in fighting Al Qaeda?

Well thats just it.

Kadagar is right. The Docs actions do harm to Pakistan as a whole, because it exposed Pakistan as the backstabbing, untrustworthy, unstable, tit sucking ally that they are. I mean, at least Israel makes no secret they would screw us for their own well being. Pakistan is working both sides, and when both sides come calling they cannot keep up the jig, as indicated by the base attack several months back where the billion dollars of aircraft we had just given them were destroyed. That entire ordeal was not simply a bad guys attacking the good guys. It went much deeper than that.

Pakistan, as a country, cannot support itself, its infrastructure, or its food requirements without outside assistance. Us and NATO support drying up for them is detrimental to their well being as a nation.

This entire thread is a no brainer. Who here DID NOT think they would not prosecute or at least make this guy "disappear," which makes me ask again: why did we not whisk this guy and his family away??

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

What definition of treason are you using?

Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aided or involved by such an endeavour.

Working with your nation's allies to track down their enemy and a nominal enemy of your own state doesn't really sound like overthrow or serious injury to the state of Pakistan. The only way Bin Laden's loss would be a "serious injury" to Pakistan is if he was an asset to the state. Pakistan has been walking on both sides of the Al Qaeda issue for a long time. If helping locate Bin Laden is treason, what does that say about Pakistan's seriousness in fighting Al Qaeda?

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I think helping a foreign nation send armed soldiers into your nation without your government's knowledge is close to treason. Allies don't enter your nation with military force unannounced. Or send drones to kill your citizens on the basis they associated with people who might be terrorists.

CR

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I think helping a foreign nation send armed soldiers into your nation without your government's knowledge is close to treason.

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How exactly did he help send armed soldiers into his nation? I think our special forces were quite capable of getting into the country without his help. No, all he did was help locate Bin Laden.

He gave intelligence to the US- intelligence that Pakistan maintains they would have given to the US if they had it. Meanwhile, we find bin Laden living in the shadow of a Pakistani military academy. Again, their charging this man with treason indicates that bin Laden was an important national asset- which in turn puts the lie to the notion that they were out ally in searching for him.

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Well thats just it.

Kadagar is right. The Docs actions do harm to Pakistan as a whole, because it exposed Pakistan as the backstabbing, untrustworthy, unstable, tit sucking ally that they are. I mean, at least Israel makes no secret they would screw us for their own well being. Pakistan is working both sides, and when both sides come calling they cannot keep up the jig, as indicated by the base attack several months back where the billion dollars of aircraft we had just given them were destroyed. That entire ordeal was not simply a bad guys attacking the good guys. It went much deeper than that.

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This may be true- but I don't really think they wanted to air it out in quite this way.... Maybe they'll now have to charge the prosecutor and judge with treason too for damaging their relationship with their sugardaddy (US).

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

What definition of treason are you using?

Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aided or involved by such an endeavour.

Working with your nation's allies to track down their enemy and a nominal enemy of your own state doesn't really sound like overthrow or serious injury to the state of Pakistan. The only way Bin Laden's loss would be a "serious injury" to Pakistan is if he was an asset to the state. Pakistan has been walking on both sides of the Al Qaeda issue for a long time. If helping locate Bin Laden is treason, what does that say about Pakistan's seriousness in fighting Al Qaeda?

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I don't think Pakistan uses Oran's dictionary of law, but I'm not an international policy expert.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

I don't think Pakistan uses Oran's dictionary of law, but I'm not an international policy expert.

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That's not really the point. Pakistan can define spitting on the sidewalk as high treason if they want to. But for the purposes of our discussion about whether the doctor's treason conviction is reasonable and warranted (as some appear to be arguing) it's helpful to have a commonly accepted definition of treason as a point of reference.

However, I think even when looking at what passes for law in Pakistan, the case for treason against him is shaky.

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Regardless of whether Afridi is a hero or a traitor, some important technical and legal questions are being raised regarding the charge of ‘treason’ levelled against him and the holding of his trial through an official Jirga under the FCR. First, many will question the bringing of a treason charge against Afridi. The crime of high treason has been defined by Article 6 of the Constitution, which is an act of abrogation, subversion, suspension, holding in abeyance or attempting, conspiring, abetting to do or adding the aforementioned acts by use of force or show of force or by any other unconstitutional means. Afridi’s acts do not appear to fall under the definition of treason by any stretch of the imagination.

Second, the alleged crime of treason was committed in Abbottabad and not in Khyber Agency. Therefore, the Political Agent of Khyber Agency, under the existing jurisprudence of the superior judiciary, does not have the jurisdiction to try the alleged crime under the FCR that was committed in the settled areas.

Third, the Constitution of Pakistan guarantees the rights of the accused to be brought before a magistrate within 24 hours of his arrest; informed of the charges as soon as possible; kept in police custody beyond 24 hours with the permission of the court only; given a fair trial by the regular judiciary; represented through counsel of his choice; dealt with in accordance with law; and enjoy the equal protection of law. Afridi seems to have been deprived of all his fundamental human rights.

Fourth, it appears the move to try Afridi through the official Jirga under the FCR is with the intention of barring the jurisdiction of the Peshawar High Court and the Supreme Court of Pakistan from hearing the appeals of Afridi against his punishment. Article 247 of the Constitution bars the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court and a High Court in relation to a tribal area.

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Helping a Foriegn Power, allied or no, is Treason; during a time of war it is sometimes called "High Treason".

Pakistan is fully within its rights to prosecute this man and, frankly, he is fortunate not to be executed.

Having said that - the US should have extracted him, his home country should have given him a trial and the Pakistani's should have nabbed Bin Laden themselves.

So the conclusion to be drawn is that the people who rule the US and Pakistan and particularly their intelligence agencies are jerks but no judge or jury could have let this guy off.

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The news has generated debate on social media forums that is reflective of our divided society. For many it was a heroic, courageous and patriotic act of Afridi, contributing to the elimination of OBL and weakening of al Qaeda and its affiliates. This is the organisation that has the blood of thousands of innocent men, women and children on their hands, killed indiscriminately in the last decade in markets, mosques, funeral congregations, jirgas and other public places in Pakistan and Afghanistan. They consider OBL and al Qaeda responsible for bringing war and instability to Afghanistan, Pakistan and the region. But there are others who consider Afridi a traitor for his role in helping the US eliminate OBL. The religious political parties, militant organisations of all sorts, military/ISI, their sympathisers and the ghairat brigade of Pakistan fall into the latter category.

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This. By no measure are the people who comprise the latter group a minority.
The way I see it the fault does not lie with the state itself, but with the populace, or at least a part of it. What is the government of any state to do when it faces pressure from the people? I'm pretty certain many people in the Pakistani government too are unhappy with all this.
This is actually one reason I've always felt that issues with Pakistan and nearby regions won't be sorted out anytime soon, if they are ever sorted out at all. Their grievances with other countries are more than just skin deep. It's something that they believe in...that they believe to be facts beyond all debate.
It is hard to convince one man that what he thinks/knows to be the truth is not all true. To convince an entire group of people.....well....more than fifty years have gone by and our border disputes haven't been solved. The future looks murky. :juggle:

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Helping a Foriegn Power, allied or no, is Treason; during a time of war it is sometimes called "High Treason".

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Really?

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

That's US treason law. British, and thus Imperial treason laws are not the same. US treason laws would be based on the Treason Act 1695, where as Pakistans would be based on the Treason Act 1945 or at least the Treason Act 1800. You have to remember that when a colony became a dominion British law became that nations law, more or less. My googlings haven't turn up anything specific to Pakistan, BUT I did find Canada's. Relevant bits, section B, bolded.

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Treason
(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,
(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
(b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
(c) conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (b) and manifests that intention by an overt act."

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So again not Pakistan's law. However I find it a reasonable assumption that Pakistan has very similar treason laws. So this guy is in fact guilty of treason, but not high treason*. What this Doctor did meets the requirements. He became an agent of a foreign power and the info he provided was used in a military strike by said foreign power against Pakistan.




*Which is:

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"High treason
(1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,
(a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;
(b) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or
(c) assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

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Pakistan might have just replaced the Sovereign with President in their laws.

And here's a new wrinkle.

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A Pakistan doctor who assisted the CIA in tracking down Osama bin Laden was sentenced to 33 years in prison for conspiring with an Islamist militant commander, a verdict that could make it more difficult for Washington to argue for his release.

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I'm a little skeptical of this information right now, why would he help us locate Bin Laden while aiding other islamist militants? Let's see where this goes.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

And here's a new wrinkle.

I'm a little skeptical of this information right now, why would he help us locate Bin Laden while aiding other islamist militants? Let's see where this goes.

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You must have a kind heart and good nature.

Dangit!

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Pakistan is a corrupt kleptocratic wannabe police state. You're as likely to be thrown in jail on a bogus political charge as you are on a valid charge, and its almost a given that the people handing down the punishments are guilty of any number of crimes themselves ranging from corruption to aiding terrorists. Whatever their "treason" laws are, they aren't worth the paper they are written on--just like any other law in Pakistan.

Too late to do anything now, but don't get it twisted: The Authorities in Pakistan don't have the moral high-ground required to be fair arbiters in ANY politically charged case, let alone this one. One might even say that acts which hurt the government of Pakistan are actually in the best interests of the people, since they're in dire need of new management anyway.

But, once again, too late to do anything. But we really should stop giving them money and aid.

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Yes to the last.

As to the rest - if they had let him off they would just be demonstrating even greater corruption.

So...