North Korea to follow Germany's model

Ok, not really, and I'll spare you the TOLD YOU SO (oops, too late) but it appears that Kim Jong Un is not as bad as many assumed and I was right in thinking that he may actually want to open up the country slowly.

Link here.

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Pyongyang may be preparing to open up its economy. A report in a prominent newspaper claims the regime has enlisted the aid of German economic and legal experts to lay the groundwork for foreign investment in North Korean companies. The move could be made as soon as this year.

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So this also indicating that my assumption about him killing and axing military officials because they opposed his ideas was not all that wrong after all. After all there's no better way to open up a military dictatorships than by dropping mortar rounds onto generals, right?
Apart from me being correct I think this is good news and I hope he succeeds if that's really his plan and doesn't turn out to be a hoax of some kind (it's not 1st of April after all).

At some point NK will be open to tourism and we will all be able to flock to see the unicorn lair that the Great Leader found.

I will be delighted to go there and sacrifice some candy for the Great Leader.
Just a matter of Time until he becomes their person of the year.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

At some point NK will be open to tourism and we will all be able to flock to see the unicorn lair that the Great Leader found.

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I want to go to the golf course where he got a hole in one on every hole.

The great leader is my hero. I wish i could be 1/100th the man he is.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...-nkorea-plans/

Now Google. Maybe they're being influenced by China's model.

I distrust ze Germans on principle

Also, I had forgotten how far left Husar was

Kind of cute IMO

What use it for a North-Korean to follow a German model, they are too small to do anything with her. Or am I misunderstanding topic.

More like economic and political model but I exaggerated the fact that they asked German scientists for advice a little.

What I cannot understand is the rightist logic that little improvments are no improvements at all. After all they wouldn't be little improvements if they were no improvements at all, right? Yes/No?

Well yes. What makes you think the right is against it

So..will we split North Korea into two Koreas?

North North Korea and South North Korea? With special subdivisionary areas called South North North Korea and North South North Korea?

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Originally Posted by Husar

More like economic and political model but I exaggerated the fact that they asked German scientists for advice a little.

What I cannot understand is the rightist logic that little improvments are no improvements at all. After all they wouldn't be little improvements if they were no improvements at all, right? Yes/No?

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While this isn't perestojka yet, there were no more signs in the USSR in 1985 of the radical changes that would occur just a couple of years later.

Things can change fast with new leadership. I see no logical reason why that can't happen in North Korea, but I won't be holding my breath.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

While this isn't perestojka yet, there were no more signs in the USSR in 1985 of the radical changes that would occur just a couple of years later.

Things can change fast with new leadership. I see no logical reason why that can't happen in North Korea, but I won't be holding my breath.

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Indeed, let's wait and see what comes out of it. Even talk about opening up is a pretty significant departure.

When the USSR began with Glasnost and Perestroijka the entire cardhouse came crashing down. The Chinese thought that this was because of the Glasnost-part, i.e. loosening the grip on society made the whole thing spiral out of control. China would then modernize its economy to a degree while still remaining a thoroughly oppressive state.

I expect that North Korea has about the same idea. Allthough given the situation there, ending their massive famine problems would be a huge improvement even if civil liberties remain non-existent.

I admit, I would prefer a solution where North Korea radically changes, even if it becomes more like a little 'China' or adopting the German model. Wealth fosters power, so opening up the economy, it will allow more people to become more wealthy and demand more rights. These will hopefully open up society politically and socially (like in China).

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

I expect that North Korea has about the same idea. Allthough given the situation there, ending their massive famine problems would be a huge improvement even if civil liberties remain non-existent.

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Expectting anything other than civil liberties remaining non-existant. Whole generations will have die of old age first. But it's a flirt we should take very serious.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

When the USSR began with Glasnost and Perestroijka the entire cardhouse came crashing down. The Chinese thought that this was because of the Glasnost-part, i.e. loosening the grip on society made the whole thing spiral out of control. China would then modernize its economy to a degree while still remaining a thoroughly oppressive state.

I expect that North Korea has about the same idea. Allthough given the situation there, ending their massive famine problems would be a huge improvement even if civil liberties remain non-existent.

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You've got your dates screwed up.

Zhao Ziyang was the one who introduced economic reform, and he came to power 5 years before Gorby, in 1980. The crackdown happened under Li Peng, who was elected(lol) in 1987. The chinese leadership didn't pay much attention to the USSR during that time, as the russian leadership were all dirty traitors to communism. China's economic reforms were mostly a response to the rule of the Gang of Four, and the ideas the new leadership later implemented was formed during the second half of the cultural revolution. They wanted economic progress, but losing power? No way, José!

But in some ways, the NK position is comparable to the chinese situation in the late 70's. China had endured a failed cultural revolution, NK has endured countless famines and natural disasters. The persons responsible for the troubles are both replaced, although in different ways. The gang of four were shot, while NK has done its change hereditary. The new leadership in China could, and did, launch a massive smear campaign which paved the way for acceptance of a new direction. The question of course is how the new Kim can change direction, as it seems unlikely that he can denounce the old Kim...

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

[...], even if it becomes more like a little 'China' or adopting the German model.

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Yes, neither of these two very similar systems would be desirable but still a little bit better than what they have now, right?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

The question of course is how the new Kim can change direction, as it seems unlikely that he can denounce the old Kim...

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He can once enough of the old military guys have had mortar rounds dropped onto their heads...

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Originally Posted by Husar

Yes, neither of these two very similar systems would be desirable but still a little bit better than what they have now, right?

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That was what I was saying. Except, I have no issues with the German system.

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Originally Posted by Husar

He can once enough of the old military guys have had mortar rounds dropped onto their heads...

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Or he could use Tito's favourite... Helium in tires, works every time.

He could, but he seems to have decided on mortar rounds.

The link also mentions that other officials have disappeared since Kim Jong Un took power.
And now that all these people are gone, he talks about a turnaround. Go figure...
I expect by the time I'm 40, North Korea will be lecturing the USA about human rights abuses. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Husar

He could, but he seems to have decided on mortar rounds.

The link also mentions that other officials have disappeared since Kim Jong Un took power.
And now that all these people are gone, he talks about a turnaround. Go figure...
I expect by the time I'm 40, North Korea will be lecturing the USA about human rights abuses. ~;)

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The "old guard" is usually a power, one he seems to do away with now. But I believe you're underestimating the power created by the old Kim's personality cult among the general population.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

The "old guard" is usually a power, one he seems to do away with now. But I believe you're underestimating the power created by the old Kim's personality cult among the general population.

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That's why he says he kills them for disrespecting the old Kim, it's all in the article except my accurate conclusion why he really kills them!

I've been thinking the same as you for a long time. A lot of people thought I was insane for saying anything positive about a North Korean dictator.
Several years ago, Kim Jong Il's personal Japanese chef wrote a book about the Kim family. (He wrote the book when he was away from North Korea). According to the chef, Kim Jong Un asked him about the conditions of the general North Korean population. This was during Kim's vacation from his studies at Switzerland. The chef got the feeling that Kim was deeply concerned about his own country after seeing how wealthy the Swiss were and hearing negative news about his own country.

Everyone's the hero of thier own story, unless he's a complete psychopath kim jong un is going to have some redeeming qualities, whether or not they motivate him into "doing good" has yet to be seen.

They just released the most romantic video I've seen in a veeery long time, you have to watch all of it!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=203_1360053143

The captioned photo below is also amusing.

Gah no subtitles

I think Kim Jong Un is desperate. I heard that even the North Korean army is suffering, especially during the cold winter. I think Kim is creating tension to distract the North Koreans. Otherwise, it's odd that North Korea is angering the other countries when the other countries weren't paying attention. Even China, North Korea's closest friend, is upset at North Korea's plan to test a nuke.

It seems that North Korea has done it today.

Done what? Not been oppressively evil for 5 minutes?

No, tested a glorious nuclear device that will save them from the oppressive clutches of evil imperialists.

There is a new development, apparently the country now stands for free distribution of information.

http://www.latimes.com/business/tech...,2555878.story

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Although some are questioning the validity of the supposed move--the Pirate Bay had made a similar claim in 2007--the site's IP address has been traced to Pyongyang, North Korea.

"If it's a joke, it's a very elaborate one," said a user on Hacker News, a tech news forum.

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"We believe that being offered our virtual asylum in Korea is a first step of this country's changing view of access to information," the site's statement says. "We will do our best to influence the Korean leaders to also let their own population use our service, and to make sure that we can help improve the situation in any way we can."

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In related news, Kim Jong Un wants to talk to Obama and mister Rodman confirms he's a cool guy, current politics aside:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDxn4pA_j5A

Also take that Human Rights Act to gitmo first and then you can lecture other countries about their dirty laundry.

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Originally Posted by Hooahguy

At some point NK will be open to tourism and we will all be able to flock to see the unicorn lair that the Great Leader found.

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that's not what the North Koreans claimed to have found:it's bit more boring than that. there was a mistranslation and lack of care in reporting.

doesn't change the fact that North Korea is a crazy place, but it's crazy enough as it is: it doesn't need to be embellished.

As to the recent news: if he's trying to liberalize his country, he's not doing a very good job at it:

http://dalje.com/tv/en/index.php?id=14437m238f646b998e

he should be trying to be friendly to South Korea, not risk starting another incident, or worse.

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Originally Posted by Ibrahim

that's not what the North Koreans claimed to have found:it's bit more boring than that.

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So is the pirate bay story, was a hoax after all, which really surprised me of course, I cried for a few hours.

As for Kim doing a bad job, the question is whether he is really in charge or just the figurehead of an oligarchy of military commanders who demand the hardline stance to manifest their own power. My impression is that he cannot really decide everything alone and there's a weird mix of him being the muchacho uno and everybody playing along with it but behind the curtains he cannot really do whatever he wants without the military leaders. Otherwise the discrepancy between the things people say who talked to Kim directly and the official state output is hard to explain other than by saying he's lieing through his teeth to every stranger who trusts him somewhat. The latter would mean that his studies in Switzerland left no impression on him at all and he actually believes North Korea is better than what he saw in Switzerland. Better for him at least but if you look at his "luxury", it still looks worse than what ordinary swiss people can probably afford.

Wait, I'm starting to drift, what I wanted to say is that the capitalist aggression pact that China and the USA brought to the UN forced NK to act, he wanted to talk to Obama but Obama just sent a faceless message of punishment instead. Way to screw this up, Obama.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

I would compare North Korea's political situation (very loosely) to that of Japan towards the end of WWII.

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Which would've been an apt comparison if it were not utterly wrong. It's relatively well documented what kind of country Japan was, and it was no North Korea and certainly never aspired to be.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Which would've been an apt comparison if it were not utterly wrong. It's relatively well documented what kind of country Japan was, and it was no North Korea and certainly never aspired to be.

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I wouldn't say utterly wrong.

Admittedly Imperial Japan was a colonial super power that steam rolled through East Asia. Killed civilian prisoners and POWs by the thousand, its own people were starving during the end of the war and it was a problem during occupation to get enough food staples to the people. The Japanese people adored their god emperor too and it was a very fine line to be trod in trying him for war crimes and accept mass rebellion or let him live so that his subjects would be peaceful.

So all in all North Korea looks a much more benign toothless tiger compared with Imperial Japan. Both suffered from the cult of personality and militarization of both economy and political sphere. Which eroded personal freedoms because people would unite against an enemy real or not whilst letting slide laws that were there for the good of the political-military apparatus not the people.

Because as much as I am a huge fan of the Total War series, I do realise from time to time I am not playing the good guys. I might play them "better" by not ransacking each city, but the reality is that apart from pretty flags and uniforms a lot of these nations were pretty brutal and oppressive.

The mighty Samurai might have been put away well before WW II but the Bushido ethos was still in full swing. In fact by removing the Samurai side, the way of the Bushido might have become to much military and not enough servant. When a rule system is taken out of context and applied to other scenarios it wasn't intended for you end up with the likes of the massacre of Nanking.

It is a terrible thing that can happen when mobs are lead by the drums of war. It is very difficult to swim against the flow in these circumstances. It is made more difficult when we believe are leaders have all the information and are making perfect decisions based on it. The fog of war is much worse in real life then it is in any of the TW games. In TW our agents are our agents, but in real life agents can be double and triple agents, information can be suspect, false positives abound and whilst in games we have limitless strategic time, in real life time is the most precious resource with no reloads.

So whilst I realise that I'm a huge fan or modern Japan and the games of TW particularly Shogun. I am not a fan of how Japan was manipulated by itself and acted towards others during the WWII era.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

How is it that Pape clearly saw my point, and TA did not? I can only chalk it up to not reading my post fully, perhaps due to false preconceptions of the point he thought I was trying to make?

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Eh? If your comparison is nothing more than "they both had cults of personality" and both referred to a single human as ultimate godlike authority that's like saying Greek and English are the same language because both use an alphabet. :shrug:

Whatever the role of the Emperor it was also the case that Japanese officials had some degree of autonomous decision making and their authority was not solely based on being appointed by the Emperor but also by the status earned through their career. In fact, autonomous decisions by officials instead of consulting with/waiting for approval from the Emperor and adapting to changing circumstances was a major component in Japan's initial success. This has numerous practical consequences, one of which was that Japan's policies were a genuine reflection of the particular officials in power -- Japan's foreign policy or negotiations change significantly depending on who are the top few officials for instance. This is most dramatically illustrated towards the end of WW2: Japan's attitude is strongly determined by the top few military officials and while during the war the moderates had been more or less replaced with the hardliners, but towards the very end the hardliners are sidelined and Japan enters negotiations.

That is quite unlike North Korea in which it is the whims of dear leader that decide what North Korea is going to pretend to be tomorrow.

More importantly politics and by extension the "political situation" is a reflection of what kind of country we're dealing with. Fundamentally Japan was a modern country, still clinging on to some antiquated traditions but otherwise every bit as modern as the major powers of the day. Japan was a power to be reckoned with, even in the aftermath of WW2 -- much like Germany. It was despite everything still a nominally functional country with a sense of a social contract, it's politics and political situation reflected this.

North Korea is a basket case that is only allowed to survive because nobody can be bothered if they are silent and if they are not then nobody wants to deal with the mess. So North Korea's politics is little more than a careful projected image designed to extort as much from others as they can. Internally North Korea is simply the twisted and deformed result of a very strange type of dictatorship which essentially views the people as its slaves to do with as it pleases. So yeah, if anything its political situation is built around fear, around staying in the good books, around being the one to do the whipping instead of being the one to be whipped. And that means being seen to worship dear leader and to do whatever dear leader says, without question and without fail.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Because as much as I am a huge fan of the Total War series, I do realise from time to time I am not playing the good guys. I might play them "better" by not ransacking each city, but the reality is that apart from pretty flags and uniforms a lot of these nations were pretty brutal and oppressive.

The mighty Samurai might have been put away well before WW II but the Bushido ethos was still in full swing. In fact by removing the Samurai side, the way of the Bushido might have become to much military and not enough servant. When a rule system is taken out of context and applied to other scenarios it wasn't intended for you end up with the likes of the massacre of Nanking.

It is a terrible thing that can happen when mobs are lead by the drums of war. It is very difficult to swim against the flow in these circumstances. It is made more difficult when we believe are leaders have all the information and are making perfect decisions based on it. The fog of war is much worse in real life then it is in any of the TW games. In TW our agents are our agents, but in real life agents can be double and triple agents, information can be suspect, false positives abound and whilst in games we have limitless strategic time, in real life time is the most precious resource with no reloads.

So whilst I realise that I'm a huge fan or modern Japan and the games of TW particularly Shogun. I am not a fan of how Japan was manipulated by itself and acted towards others during the WWII era.

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Hmm. I think it's easier to think of the Japanese nationalist hysteria & war mentality during WW2 as being honest and genuine.

The North Koreans have endured for far longer, under far worse conditions than the WW2 Japanese did; with largely no shooting going on against the enemy. The entire country has been on the brink of starvation for 2 decades and not a single bomb has been dropped on North Korea, nor has a single US soldier set foot there. There's a limit on how long you can perpetuate a genuine siege mentality.

Consider those pictures of ordinary North Koreans bursting into tears upon hearing that Kim Jong-Il died. How many of those were genuinely devastated, and how many of them simply cried because it was expected of them, because they wanted to safeguard their career and future in general? The Emperor's new clothes and all that...

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Eh? If your comparison is nothing more than "they both had cults of personality" and both referred to a single human as ultimate godlike authority that's like saying Greek and English are the same language because both use an alphabet. :shrug:

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Mhh, yes, but let's look further.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Whatever the role of the Emperor it was also the case that Japanese officials had some degree of autonomous decision making and their authority was not solely based on being appointed by the Emperor but also by the status earned through their career. In fact, autonomous decisions by officials instead of consulting with/waiting for approval from the Emperor and adapting to changing circumstances was a major component in Japan's initial success. This has numerous practical consequences, one of which was that Japan's policies were a genuine reflection of the particular officials in power -- Japan's foreign policy or negotiations change significantly depending on who are the top few officials for instance. This is most dramatically illustrated towards the end of WW2: Japan's attitude is strongly determined by the top few military officials and while during the war the moderates had been more or less replaced with the hardliners, but towards the very end the hardliners are sidelined and Japan enters negotiations.

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Probably true, I have no clue.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

That is quite unlike North Korea in which it is the whims of dear leader that decide what North Korea is going to pretend to be tomorrow.

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Here we have the problem. The point GC and I wanted to make was that this is probably not the case. To the outside it may look like North Korea is led by the leader but our precious feelings say the military top officials have a whole lot to say themselves.
IMO there is some sort of weird and unclear situation, think the king with the invisible clothes. They're probably really powerful as a group but noone would want to be the only one confronting the dear leader because in that case you actually get mortar rounds dropped onto your head since the others wouldn't dare join the criticism. IF the dear leader did however tell the military brass that military spending gets cut in half, peace is made with the south and democratic elections are to follow, the real might of these people would probably show and the world would learn that unfortunately the dear leader had fallen ill and died mysteriously in a unicorn lair...

A very complicated situation for everyone involved, but it would explain a lot of the different messages that get out. To think that the whole country really just does what the dear leader wants is a step too far, even the peasants don't all do and believe that.

I found this excerpt quite cute or moving for lack of a better word:

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"In order to make sure the mobile phone frequencies are not being tracked, I would fill up a washbasin with water and put the lid of a rice cooker over my head while I made a phone call," said one interviewee, a 28-year-old man who left the country in November 2010.

"I don't know if it worked or not, but I was never caught."

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A really nice interview from North Korea came up. French photographer Eric Lafforgue went there and talked to his assistant guide for a bit.

http://www.ericlafforgue.com/wp-cont...0-in-DPRK-.pdf

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-Do you always lock your bike in Pyongyang?
-Yes Mr Eric.
-So theft happens in North Korea?
-No, it doesn’t.
-If you lock it, there must be a reason why!
-Your question is embarrassing. Let’s carry on with the visit please

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It's an amazing country, although I haven't heard about the progress on their following Germany's economic model, maybe the dark side of their force prevailed after all.

I read the whole thing, quite interesting.

As a sidenote: They give every customer plastic gloves at hamburger places... Say what you want, I still find it quite more civilized than what I see around me here...

What the hell is in their burgers that they need safety gloves to handle them?

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

What the hell is in their burgers that they need safety gloves to handle them?

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If it was only horse meat it would be ok.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

As a sidenote: They give every customer plastic gloves at hamburger places... Say what you want, I still find it quite more civilized than what I see around me here...

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That would be slide 30 of the pdf. Whether wasting plastic like that is more civilized or even cleaner in a country that probably doesn't have a lot of the hygiene rules and methods we have in most places is debatable.

And there is always sauce in burgers. Sauce that will come out on all sides and goo itself all over your fingers and hand. Using a plastic glove will keep it off your hands but I'm not sure whether I like gooey platic gloves, especially if they only fit loosely it can lead to other gooey accidents or just feel even gooeyer than without.

I think they have only one unicorn left because they all loved unicorn meat on their burgers.

:flower: :flower:

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