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Survey plus results.
2/3 of the European muslims thinks the rules of the Qu'ran are more important than secular law. Almost half dislike jews (to various degrees).
Leftist people know, for a fact, that this simply isn't true, but they will never understand that they simplg don't get it and will try to claw out your eyes instead.
http://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/file...nglisch_ed.pdf
Ohohoh
So, like the French? :sneaky:Quote:
Almost half dislike jews (to various degrees).
Predictable because it's normal, a need for relativation. I don't find these numbers very comforting. If I ask you what you think about 2/3 of the muslim population basicly rejects our secular law, what is your answer? Survey also asked christians so that's not going to work, it's all very specific.
Well, Christians think the same way, the real Christians that is, not the ones who believe once on Easter and once on Christmas every year.
Did you miss all the stuff in the USA where Christians reject secular laws and ideas about abortion and gay marriage? I know christians who think the same way but are fewer and thus quieter about it.
But this does not mean they are nasty people or that they all interprete their god's law the same way. Not every muslim who believes in sharia interpretes it the same way and not everyone seems to know what exactly sharia is about anyway (myself included). In the same way I heard a preacher say he does not believe Jesus turned water into wine because wine is alcohol and alcohol is bad and destructive and christians should not touch it, he probably turned it into grape juice he said. :rolleyes:
You see if this guy ever becomes president of the Netherlands he'll ban alcohol, gays and abortions, yet you are not worried about him.
Also, yesterday I saw a woman with a hijab holding a door open for a disabled man in a shopping center, I was never so afraid of a woman. :sweatdrop:
Won't fly Hussie, the survey also asked christians and the results are wildly different. There is a handy graph that shows the responses of both christians and muslims. It's true that there are christians who reject secular law, but they aren't the absolute majority of christians. In great contrast with muslims.
It is easy for us in the west, who have had hundreds of years since the enlightenment to adapt, to look down on Muslims living in the western world - who have had some years, or couple of months, to adapt to living in a society where religion isn't actually real and respected.
I am not saying that to diminish the stupidity of Muslims in the western world, my point is more that I want them out of the western world, and the ones we keep should be properly schooled and raised.
The stupidity of muslims in the western world I take for granted it, it just is what it is and it sucks. I have a whole lot less patience for self-congratulating gutmenschen who absolutily adore anything islam. Gutmensch had the time available, there is no excuse for islamphilae except for a deep desire for totalitarism, intolerance and absolute faith. Muslims just lost their camel and washed up here trying to find it, but a gutmensch is a different kind of idiot.
Bin Laden was an engineer and Sayyid Qotb worked as a teacher. Hassan al-Banna was a doctor.Quote:
I am not saying that to diminish the stupidity of Muslims in the western world, my point is more that I want them out of the western world, and the ones we keep should be properly schooled and raised.
These are not backwards peasants and witch doctors, these are people with a high level of education who have often lived and worked in the West as well. It has very little to do with their actual religion, but it's much more an answer to (perceived) imperialism. That's why Arab socialism and pan-Arabism was so popular in the 50's and 60's, and when that didn't work, people were drawn to another "safe haven": Islamic fundamentalism.
We in the USA are of the West, and most of us are still churched, so your description isn't quite so apt. What I have read suggests that Western Europe is no longer churched, so your label may well apply there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
The USA believes in a personal freedom of religion, the absence of a state religion, and (while not quite to the level of laicite) a separation of church and state. This is still different in comparison to the quasi-theocratic islamist model such as that of Iran, but does not fit the labeling you supplied.
What goes for being an engineer there doesn't exactly equal what it does here, everything looks good if you just rolled of the mountain. And we are talking about here here. It are simply the questions asked being answared. And me don't liking the answers. We have a problem here, we have a hatefull religion here that is catered by self-congratulating guttmensch, practised by people who are considered smart if they don't trip and fall when looking for a lost goat. Not of any use, too stupid. Not good as a neighbour either, their holy book says they should kill non-believers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
About 80% agrees that the commands in the Qu'ran are not open to interpetration, what an enrichment to our culture.
I would not dismiss the religious component so quickly, but I agree with you whole-heartedly that imperialism/cultural imperialism are prime movers as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Hax, Bin Laden wasn't exactly a muslim immigrant to the western world... So either you missed my point, or you failed to explain how your point had any relevance to what I said.
Seamus, right... That is why getting stoned is popular but stoning isn't?
Even USAnians live in a post-enlightened western world. The population are not, as a rule, being afraid God will smite them if they don't honour his day of rest, and so on.
The population, as a rule, set the human made laws before what the bible says.
So I fail to see your point. I didn't say there was no religious belief in the USA, I said it is a post-enlightment religious belief that is the dominant factor.
This could be confusing to non-American speaking peoples, may I translate for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
churched = a very large stadium where the true believers imbibe vast quantities of spirits while observing the most devout of the congregation run around in their pajamas tossing around a fantastic leather relic.
Seamus, the European relic is of a different shape, and would look out of place in the American stadium of worship, but it seems Europeans are as devoted to it as Americans are to theirs.
Because I think that these people are a good representation of what this particular study is pointing towards. The rhetoric utilised by these people has been pretty influential over the last decades.Quote:
Hax, Bin Laden wasn't exactly a muslim immigrant to the western world... So either you missed my point, or you failed to explain how your point had any relevance to what I said.
I did not dismiss it at all, I didn't feel the need to mention it, because it's pretty obvious.Quote:
I would not dismiss the religious component so quickly,
EDIT: Also, mass immigration causes problems? In other news, the sky is still blue (although it's very dark in Estonia, where I am right now)
I take it that you are just misinformed then. To point out the obvious alternative is frowned upon on here on the .orgQuote:
Originally Posted by Hax
A rich sheikh is a good representation of what that study points towards?
Newsflash, Muslims in the western world are poor refugees. Over here, it's a clear WIN if they understand some kind of an alphabet. Obviously not the alphabet of the surrounding culture, but you know, just some kind of an alphabet at large.
If they then go on letting their daughter date a guy from the civilization accepting them, without "honour-killing" her (Here in Sweden balcony jumping is a new sport), they get rewarded by the king or something or some such.
Phrased this way, I have no objection. Your first wording implied that the West, in its entirety, had discarded religion as no longer "real." That is the opinion of many but by no means all. This rephrasing is much more apt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
"Separated by a common language" indeed. Stadium sports "worship" is still second in the USA to church/synagogue/temple services....so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lurker Below
I thought you were living in Austria?Quote:
I take it that you are just misinformed then. To point out the obvious alternative is frowned upon on here on the .org
A rich sheikh is a good representation of what that study points towards?
Newsflash, Muslims in the western world are poor refugees. Over here, it's a clear WIN if they understand some kind of an alphabet. Obviously not the alphabet of the surrounding culture, but you know, just some kind of an alphabet at large.
I think you're being slightly too quick here on two accounts:
Firstly, the majority of Muslim immigrants to western Europe, in particular to France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany, aren't exactly "poor refugees". Although the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts and the civil war in Somalia have affected the amount of political refugees from those areas, I would still say that the vast majority of refugees from Muslim-majority countries are economic migrants, particularly nowadays, when we witness 3rd to 4th generation Moroccans (France, Belgium, the Netherlands), Algerians and Tunisians (France), and Turks (the Netherlands, Germany) growing up in socio-economic circumstances that are much better than those of their (grand)parents.
In this respect, it's very naive to say that they are uneducated (although this may be the case in Sweden) or poor; quite the contrary, in recent years we have witnessed a rise in the amount of successful self-employed Turkish entrepreneurs (particularly in Holland). For what it's worth, the concept of th arab du coin (Arab on the corner) has become part of daily life in many big cities in France.
I think it's pretty safe to say that the vast majority of Muslim residents in western Europe are not illiterate refugees that sit at home, living off unemployment benefits. There are exceptions, to be sure, but it is certainly not the case in general.
So then let's go back to the actual point: why do these well-off Muslims think that secular law and homosexuals are awful? It's also interesting to note how you also only responded to Bin Laden, because it's very likely you've never heard of Sayyid Qutb or Hassan al-Banna, although I think those two are much, much more influential than Osama bin Laden has ever been.
So I think that many 2nd, 3rd and now 4th generation immigrants don't really feel at home either in their ultimate countries of origin, nor in their resident countries. I think that in many cases religion (especially one that is considered to be so direct and simple as Islam) provide answers to many of the questions that they're having. In the same vein, I think it's very interesting to see why people in western Europe convert to Islam, which is something I don't really understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube
The Eu that wants to destroy the democratic nation-state and establish a fourth reich runned by unelected eurocrats, the EU that funds Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood, that EU? Which pot, which kettle.
Hax, I'm in Sweden right now. It changes monthly, so I don't much bother keeping people updated.
Thank you for taking the time to make that post, I will answer you like this.
I understand your viewpoint, and I understand that being Muslim in today's world comes with a whole lot of "thorns out, shield up". For very understandable reasons, I might add. I for one make sure to go through security controls just after someone of Arabic heritage, just so I won't be bothered.
But let's face it, enough of a number of the Muslim immigrants - for it to be a problem, are acting in a way that the western world does not find acceptable. These people are NOT your neighbors or even countrymen. They are as related to you as I am to white guys in the former Soviet states.
Honestly speaking, would you like to be surrounded by Somalis and Afghans? Moroccans?
I feel, that you feel, that you must defend these people because of a shared religion. Dude, I am sooooo atheist it's not even fun. I respect a well read up Muslim a hell of a lot more than Christians trying desperately to keep their one brain cell within the family... Also lovingly known as "the south" in USAnian terms.
Sorry for skipping your arguments, I just had a feeling this was the main issue. Might be wrong though :shrug:
“So, like the French?”? Who, without a Sofitel incident would have elected a Jewish President?
“Bin Laden was an engineer and Sayyid Qotb worked as a teacher. Hassan al-Banna was a doctor.” True. The French Muslim Terrorists were all in university (Sciences). Apparently education doesn’t prevent stupidity.
“For what it's worth, the concept of th arab du coin (Arab on the corner) has become part of daily life in many big cities in France.” Very useful little shops indeed. When I left France (loooong time ago) they were in the process to be overtaken by the Vietnamese.:bow:
The title to this thread really lived up to itself.
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean there's nothing to see. Or can you actually see it and choose to ignore it, you can never know. Fact, lefties ignore what doesn't suit them, that, or they simply can't see facts anymore. Too far gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
Fact, 2/3 of the muslims in Europe reject secular law.
41% of people in USA think it's more important to prepare for doomsday than for retirement.
How many of them were born somewhere else
Of that 41%, very few.
Now now, that isn't necessarily a bad idea, if you live in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
If you believe in "what goes around, comes around", they have a ****storm heading their way.
I feel that you don't really understand that I'm not a Muslim: I think it was pretty obvious in my last sentence.Quote:
Thank you for taking the time to make that post, I will answer you like this.
I understand your viewpoint, and I understand that being Muslim in today's world comes with a whole lot of "thorns out, shield up". For very understandable reasons, I might add. I for one make sure to go through security controls just after someone of Arabic heritage, just so I won't be bothered.
But let's face it, enough of a number of the Muslim immigrants - for it to be a problem, are acting in a way that the western world does not find acceptable. These people are NOT your neighbors or even countrymen. They are as related to you as I am to white guys in the former Soviet states.
Honestly speaking, would you like to be surrounded by Somalis and Afghans? Moroccans?
I feel, that you feel, that you must defend these people because of a shared religion. Dude, I am sooooo atheist it's not even fun. I respect a well read up Muslim a hell of a lot more than Christians trying desperately to keep their one brain cell within the family... Also lovingly known as "the south" in USAnian terms.
Also, why the hell do you seem to think that I see these people as compatriots or neighbours? That's got nothing to do with the issue here at all. You may be doing it unknowingly, but it seems to me that you think that I'm somehow defending mass immigrants because I have some sort of ethnic or cultural link to them? Hell, I nearly got beat up because I was criticising Arab culture.
The thing is, I don't disagree that there are a lot of problems with mass immigration; the only thing I'm doing is offering a different perspective from where these problems come from.
I'm sorry if I come off as a tad frustrated, it just appears to me that people sometimes think I have some sort of ulterior motive because they assume I have a certain religion or am part of a certain culture. It's silly.
And yet 80 percent of all Muslims are non-Arab.Quote:
I for one make sure to go through security controls just after someone of Arabic heritage, just so I won't be bothered.
No, the fact is that 2/3 think that Islamic law is more important to them than secular law. That does not mean that they reject or will refuse to submit to secular law, as you seem to suggest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
You could see it like that, granted. Rejection is too strong a term you are right about that. But even when toning it down a little it is still worrying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr
This might seem like an odd necro, but I just watched this video from Bill Maher's show about liberals failing to criticize Islam and my god did it remind me of what Fragony said here. 10 minutes of Ben Affleck seemingly sticking his head in the sand and ignoring what everyone else was saying, proceeding to call everyone racist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
The key point is that people were criticizing Islam, not the perverted interpretation of it by various fundamentalist and jihadists.
At its core, Islam is no more violent or conservative than Christianity. Also, people who criticize Islam fail to take into account plethora of other factors and blame the religion itself for everything that's happening. Homosexuals aren't treated much better in many, predominantly Christian, African countries.
Afleck said nothing much wrong really.
As I said in another thread, the problem is not Islam, but the Muslims themselves.
Reactionary cultural baggage - get rid of that, and "peaceful Islam" is a corollary.
I would turn that around. All my muslim friends only care about what's for dinner, and are in a pretty bad mood during ramadan. Their parents go to the mosque but that's about it. Those that subject to islam though, whole different thing. Islam is vile, muslims not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montmorency
Fun fact, had a chat with an Iraqi guy who wanted to join the then ISIS, we had casually talked before. We were sitting at my house outside having a street-barbecue and he asked if he could join us. sure grab a chair. Got him as far as drinking a wine, he didn't eat the porkchops though. But it's still my personal victory on IS. Was quite an nteresting conversation.
I believe it depends on how you interpret Islam. Every religion has different types of followers who interpret it differently. Every religion has your hardcore fanatic types. That does not make the religion vile. The individuals interpretation however can be problematic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
So to be fair neither the religion nor your average practitioner is vile. It's just a select group of people, who would probably have been equally despicable had the been born in any other religion.
I only watched the first 2-3 mintues of the video before I got bored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian
But, in the part that I did watch, nobody discussed the reasons for the state of islamic countries today. Maher observed that the majority of muslims hold opinions that we would consider intolerant and bigoted. Affleck denies there is any such problem.
I have long thought that the greatest problems with Islam arise not from Islam per se, but from Pre-Islamic Arabian Warlordism.
Is that another way of saying that the culture is rotten?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Don't know that I would go quite that far. Their guesting customs and attitude towards scholars were good. I think we can point to more than a few of their pre-Islamic customs that have not stood the test of time or moral progress (or at least what passes for moral progress among the West).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
I just watched the full clip.
I think Maher went over the top a few times. Then again, that's how everybody knows him and why they love him (or not)
Kristoff makes some valid points but I find it highly ironic that he objects to the others are making a caricature of Indonesia, Malaysia and such...while in those two countries, apostates from islam are frequently prosecuted and convicted; either for apostasy or under the term "blasphemy".
Ben Affleck made a fool of himself.
How on earth does Ben Affleck count for anything....?Quote:
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name
A Pakistani guy beat me in fantasy football this week
Does that count as assimilation?
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Decent actor. Unfortunately, in our media culture, this gives him entrée to comment on world politics and the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I regularly sit next to a guy called Muhammad (great guy) and he said that there were some monsters in this world, when he commented about IS and Ian Hemming beheading which was just on the news.
I don't see the problem.
You probably missed the part where he looked back into the camera and eerily murmured "...Like meeeeee!" before the scene freeze-framed on his glowing eyes and bloodcurdling grin.
Then this started to play...
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
But that pre-islamic arabian warlordism appears to have been exported along with Islam - from Morocco to Indonesia all aren't exactly free and pleasant lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
~:smoking: