Vladimir Putin

Accurate sketch or western propaganda?

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26769481


Some see him as a principled counter to the west. Does he have principals?

He is first and foremost a thief and has been that way for at least a decade.

Ok, we can close the thread. rvg has spoken and his arguments are flawless.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Ok, we can close the thread. rvg has spoken and his arguments are flawless.

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The padawan is finally learning not to question the master. Good, very good.

This is still my favourite.

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Originally Posted by Tiaexz

Time Headline across the world - September 16th
https://i.imgur.com/8w24FSw.jpg

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Originally Posted by rvg

He is first and foremost a thief and has been that way for at least a decade.

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Let me guess, you didn't read a word and just jumped to your echo chamber conclusions. Fox News is proud of you.





Regardless, I think the article did its best to be objective. I especially liked the part about how again and again people mistakenly look for depth, lies and hidden agendas when he talks, when in fact history has shown that he should be taken at face value.

What you hear is what he say.

That's just so... unpoliticianish.

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Originally Posted by rvg

He is first and foremost a thief and has been that way for at least a decade.

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I'd say at least two decades.

I find it highly unlikely that he wasn't stealing stuff right, left and center before he came to power. It is, after all, the Russian Way(tm).

His closest American equivalence seems to be the neocon.

Low focus on international respect of laws. Low focus on economics (this is going to hurt Russia hard economically). High focus on macho manliness. High focus on national supremacy.

The article itself, while interesting, doesn't bring anything new for discussion.

Since 1999, we've been hearing about imminent collapse of Russian economy, mass protest against his dictatorship that will happen any day now, serious consequences of military actions, isolation on world stage...

After 15 years, it hasn't happened. "Experts" might wanna rethink their statements, especially when comparing SU and Russian Federation.

Ironically, his approval rating was lowest since 1999 and than Ukraine crisis propelled him up in the comfortable 60-70%...

Well, maybe that's because Russia's ills are more chronic than progressive.

The problem with Russia, more even than pure demographics or economic in-diversity is that it's so fragmented. Without authoritarian leadership, Russia simply could not remain a unified country - and it's not just a matter of bits here and there from the South and East. It's a Catch-22: better transport infrastructure and stronger civic institutions would foster more national unity than opportunistic jingoism and an iron fist, but those take time to develop, and in that time and by their very nature, they would break Russia apart. To put it another way, it's sort of like the dilemma faced by Gorbachev.

But the United States kind of doesn't want Russia to totally dissolve, for obvious reasons. So get comfortable with the back-and-forth, with or without Putin.

With how much he scares the US; it's a wonder we havent heard of any failed assassination attempts yet.

Scares is a strong word. He is doing stuff the USA does not approve of. He isn't planning on invading.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

With how much he scares the US; it's a wonder we havent heard of any failed assassination attempts yet.

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He's a main player, it would be against the "code". It would be too risky, and then it would be open season on POTUS.

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Scares is a strong word. He is doing stuff the USA does not approve of. He isn't planning on invading.

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Not invade, but I do get the general impression that the americans are getting antsy that putin might be one to restart the cold war.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Not invade, but I do get the general impression that the americans are getting antsy that putin might be one to restart the cold war.

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I doubt he'll last long enough to start anything serious (with the USA I mean), given the current weather.
Anyhow a little bit of competition (short of the cold war of course) never hurt anyone. It keeps people from becoming sluggish and complacent. It takes a rival to point out your weaknesses. And if I'm any judge most USAnians on this board don't think ill of Putin anyway. I might be wrong though.

IMO this whole incident has been overhyped, because it is the USA, because it is Vladimir Putin and because it is Russia. Had it been someone else, it wouldn't have gotten half the press it is getting now.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I'd say at least two decades.

I find it highly unlikely that he wasn't stealing stuff right, left and center before he came to power. It is, after all, the Russian Way(tm).

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Blatant racism. I absolutely LOVE it, welcome to the fold HT.

Anyway, I don't think Putin is in a position to look for monetary gains. Nor was he when he gained office.

Putin's financial records are probably not lily white but thing they are probably considerably whiter than those of his rivals. Avarice is not really a particularly glaring weakness of his (at least not when compared to your garden variety politician, say a British MP). More importantly as someone with ties to the FSB he knows about the vices of his would be rivals and the closets they use for skeleton storage, since his would be rivals pay the FSB and civil servants protection money to keep the government from meddling in their affairs.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Blatant racism. I absolutely LOVE it, welcome to the fold HT.

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I fail to see how pointing at how Russian officials are corrupt is racism.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

Anyway, I don't think Putin is in a position to look for monetary gains. Nor was he when he gained office.

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Yeah, I'm sure he made himself a billionaire to support the needy children.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I fail to see how pointing at how Russian officials are corrupt is racism.

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One Russian historian (Nicholas Karamzin) back in the late 18th century went on a trip to Europe. In France which had a Russian expat community he was asked what was going on in Russia. He answered: "Theft."

He is great warrior and everlasting champion of the people.

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Originally Posted by rvg

One Russian historian (Nicholas Karamzin) back in the late 18th century went on a trip to Europe. In France which had a Russian expat community he was asked what was going on in Russia. He answered: "Theft."

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That's about fiefdom

You mean thiefdom...

Most unlikely and guinenly surprising pun evar!

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

He is great warrior and everlasting champion of the people.

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And kind to babushkas no doubt.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

And kind to babushkas no doubt.

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And even kinder to little boys.

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Originally Posted by rvg

And even kinder to little boys.

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Can you be more USAnian?

Interesting article Fisherking , thanks for posting it. In my opinion Putin is a smart, calculated and ruthless politician and like most politicians, power hungry to the boot. I believe that he is indeed somewhat indoctrinated and believes himself that his goal is to lift Russia back to its feet and that might be how he can comfort himself to sleep during nights. Nevertheless such indoctrination should not and will not excuse many of his shady dealings. Still the fact that Russia´s lack of democracy is so obvious that people like Putin are the ones benefiting Russia is a disturbing notion in itself, but like Monty explained already. A democratic Russia would not be a Russia anymore, but something more akin to pre Moscovite ruled Russian principalities and that does not sound exactly swell either.

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Originally Posted by rvg

And even kinder to little boys.

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He's not a catholic priest.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

He's not a catholic priest.

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Yeah, the last guy to make such allegations ended up drinking tea with polonium. Or was it coffee?

"Yeah, the last guy to make such allegations ended up drinking tea with polonium. Or was it coffee?" The former KGB agent?

Yeah, Litvinenko.

That case actually proves just how unsubstantiated anti-Putin hysteria has become. Factually, we don't know anything of the case. British authorities didn't release any information to anyone, including close members of his family. People are basically guessing, there are dozens of theories, but somehow the press and the political establishment is certain that he was killed on the explicit orders of Putin. Not just "someone from FSB", but Putin himself, and Putin was one of the few persons who didn't really have anything to gain. Litvinenko has been in Britain for 7 years, he wrote two books badmouthing Putin already, he shared what he knew.... so what was the point of killing him?

Putin likes to show us how evil he is and then try to hide and deny it.
Should be obvious, all supervillains like to show off.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Yeah, Litvinenko.

That case actually proves just how unsubstantiated anti-Putin hysteria has become. Factually, we don't know anything of the case. British authorities didn't release any information to anyone, including close members of his family. People are basically guessing, there are dozens of theories, but somehow the press and the political establishment is certain that he was killed on the explicit orders of Putin. Not just "someone from FSB", but Putin himself, and Putin was one of the few persons who didn't really have anything to gain. Litvinenko has been in Britain for 7 years, he wrote two books badmouthing Putin already, he shared what he knew.... so what was the point of killing him?

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the list of those killed vindictively after they had already blown the whistle or whatever is not that short

“the list of those killed vindictively after they had already blown the whistle or whatever is not that short” By Putin, or in general?

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

the list of those killed vindictively after they had already blown the whistle or whatever is not that short

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It is a theory, one of many. It could be true, but something else may be true even easier.

Instead of thinking of huge conspiracies, doesn't the theory that several of them were smuggling polonium make much more sense?

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Originally Posted by Brenus

“the list of those killed vindictively after they had already blown the whistle or whatever is not that short” By Putin, or in general?

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Meant as a general comment. I am not aware of any confirmed particulars regarding Putin. Russian history is replete with such episodes though, certainly from Ivan if not before.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Meant as a general comment. I am not aware of any confirmed particulars regarding Putin. Russian history is replete with such episodes though, certainly from Ivan if not before.

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Barring examples of quartering people for disobeying their divinely ordained rulers in the middle ages, there really aren't.

If the idea was to send a message, why use Polonium? Supposedly, Polonium is untraceable and Russian agents weren't aware that some new piece of technology in the west can detect Polonium. If you want to send a message to would-be traitors, you generally don't want it to look like the traitor died a natural death.

If the idea was just to exact revenge on him for badmouthing Putin... Well, that's a really thin argument. Thousands of people badmouthed him. Litvinenko was generally unknown to the wider public. Why choose him over everybody else and divert massive amount of attention to him? Seven years after he fled? It doesn't really make sense.

Since he already blew the whistle, there was also no reason to kill him. The deed's been done. Nothing more to gain except additional bad rep.

It's all pretty thin, and since there's absolutely zero evidence linking this to Putin and since British police didn't release any serious information, this is really tinfoil hat territory.

If you don't accept Litvinenko, here is a nice list for you.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

If you don't accept Litvinenko, here is a nice list for you.

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Journalists killed in Russia, not by Russia or by Putin.

While it is a sad state of affairs, proving Russia still has a long way to go when it comes to freedom of the press, there's no evidence linking Putin to any of these murders. There are thousands of journalists in Russia and many more abroad who attack him everyday and they are still alive. Just because someone badmouthed Putin or Russian policy is no proof that Putin ordered a hit.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Journalists killed in Russia, not by Russia or by Putin.

While it is a sad state of affairs, proving Russia still has a long way to go when it comes to freedom of the press, there's no evidence linking Putin to any of these murders. There are thousands of journalists in Russia and many more abroad who attack him everyday and they are still alive. Just because someone badmouthed Putin or Russian policy is no proof that Putin ordered a hit.

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Most of them were probably whacked by random oligarch and provincial kings, but that doesn't change the fact that Putin, as head of state, is responsible for their deaths.


Had he actually taken action against it, he would appear in a better light. Instead, when questioned about the death of one of them, he coldly replied that "her influence on Russia was minimal".

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Barring examples of quartering people for disobeying their divinely ordained rulers in the middle ages, there really aren't.

If the idea was to send a message, why use Polonium? Supposedly, Polonium is untraceable and Russian agents weren't aware that some new piece of technology in the west can detect Polonium. If you want to send a message to would-be traitors, you generally don't want it to look like the traitor died a natural death.

If the idea was just to exact revenge on him for badmouthing Putin... Well, that's a really thin argument. Thousands of people badmouthed him. Litvinenko was generally unknown to the wider public. Why choose him over everybody else and divert massive amount of attention to him? Seven years after he fled? It doesn't really make sense.

Since he already blew the whistle, there was also no reason to kill him. The deed's been done. Nothing more to gain except additional bad rep.

It's all pretty thin, and since there's absolutely zero evidence linking this to Putin and since British police didn't release any serious information, this is really tinfoil hat territory.

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From wikipedia;

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A week after the assassination [of Anna Politkovskaya], Alexander Litvinenko accused Putin of sanctioning the murder. Two weeks after this statement, Litvinenko was poisoned with radioactive polonium. Two days before his death on 24 November 2006, he wrote a statement, in case he "does not make it". He said:

"Name the bastard. Anna Politkovskaya did not do it, so I will, for both of us.[36] You may succeed in silencing one man but the howl of protest from around the world will reverberate, Mr Putin, in your ears for the rest of your life. May God forgive you for what you have done, not only to me but to beloved Russia and its people".

According to some reports, Litvinenko tried to investigate Politkovskaya's death.[37][38] He was also writing a book about FSB activities including concentration camps in Chechnya. In that regard, he had frequent contacts with Politkovskaya.[39] Litvinenko's poisoning was remarkably similar to the thallium poisoning of KGB defector Nikolai Khokhlov,[40] whom Politkovskaya had interviewed for Novaya Gazeta.[41]

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CR

Err, and that is a proof? He wrote a book and he said it was Putin... Right. It won't stand in front of a Jury.

Last time a claim of a Polonium killing was on Yasser Arafat, former leader of the PLO. The killing was put on the Mossad. So, apparently, Mossad and KGB work together if the murder weapon must be a proof.

However, as a faithful watcher of NCIS, I know that Israel is the best USA ally, so I can, from theses evidences, tell the world that the CIA killed Litvinenko.

We can not say for sure that the letter was written by Litvinenko, and he and Politovskaya were hardly the only ones who wrote against Putin. Crimes in Chechnya were written about and published by many journalists.

Generally, when the sentence starts with "According to some reports", take what comes after it with a grain of salt. There is a chance Putin ordered it, but there are also 15 or more other theories and one of them may be true just as well.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

We can not say for sure that the letter was written by Litvinenko, and he and Politovskaya were hardly the only ones who wrote against Putin. Crimes in Chechnya were written about and published by many journalists.

Generally, when the sentence starts with "According to some reports", take what comes after it with a grain of salt. There is a chance Putin ordered it, but there are also 15 or more other theories and one of them may be true just as well.

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Politkovskaja was probably whacked by one of Kadyrov's thugs.

That doesn't change things much when it comes to Putin's responsibility.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Politkovskaja was probably whacked by one of Kadyrov's thugs.

That doesn't change things much when it comes to Putin's responsibility.

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He's responsible in the sense every head of state is responsible for not making the country a better place. He's responsible to his electorate for that, not to courts.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

He's responsible in the sense every head of state is responsible for not making the country a better place. He's responsible to his electorate for that, not to courts.

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Not just "making the country safer". What do you think would happen if one of Putin's propaganda journalists died, would we see more or less investigation than we saw when Politkovskaja died? And "making the country safer" sounds like Politkovskaja was a victim of general crime, but Kadyrov is Putin's strongman. He's not a nobody.

Negligence is actually a crime. Selective law enforcement is called corruption, which is also a crime. Few bosses actually "order hits"; the underlings are supposed to know intuitively when the head honcho wants someone whacked. This is the situation in Russia.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

We can not say for sure that the letter was written by Litvinenko, and he and Politovskaya were hardly the only ones who wrote against Putin. Crimes in Chechnya were written about and published by many journalists.

Generally, when the sentence starts with "According to some reports", take what comes after it with a grain of salt. There is a chance Putin ordered it, but there are also 15 or more other theories and one of them may be true just as well.

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As noted - the MO fits KGB practice of publicly poisoning KGB defectors. There is no way Polonium could have accidentally got into ONLY Litvinenko's food, irrc he was at a Sushi restaurant, so it's even less likely.

His death was painful and agonising - even if Polonium had not been detected his high profile and his sudden deterioration in health after his accusing Putin of murder would fuel conspiracy theories. Further, the use of Polonium indicates access to a nuclear reactor, which points to the Russian State.

Application of Ockham's Razor suggests the murder was ordered by Putin or someone close to him. Given Putin's control of the Oligarchs, it hardly matter which. One of the suspected assassins subsequently became a member of the Durma.

This is just what I remember from the news reports at the time.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

As noted - the MO fits KGB practice of publicly poisoning KGB defectors. There is no way Polonium could have accidentally got into ONLY Litvinenko's food, irrc he was at a Sushi restaurant, so it's even less likely.

His death was painful and agonising - even if Polonium had not been detected his high profile and his sudden deterioration in health after his accusing Putin of murder would fuel conspiracy theories. Further, the use of Polonium indicates access to a nuclear reactor, which points to the Russian State.

Application of Ockham's Razor suggests the murder was ordered by Putin or someone close to him. Given Putin's control of the Oligarchs, it hardly matter which. One of the suspected assassins subsequently became a member of the Durma.

This is just what I remember from the news reports at the time.

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Actually, applying Ockham's Razor would suggest that he and two others were involved in polonium smuggling. Since none of them was an expert, the possibility of poisoning was rather high.

It is by far the simplest theory. Opposed to it was that of all those thousands who badmouthed Putin, he was specifically chosen after 7 years in exile, and those wishing to kill him choose to do it with an extremely complicated method.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Actually, applying Ockham's Razor would suggest that he and two others were involved in polonium smuggling. Since none of them was an expert, the possibility of poisoning was rather high.

It is by far the simplest theory. Opposed to it was that of all those thousands who badmouthed Putin, he was specifically chosen after 7 years in exile, and those wishing to kill him choose to do it with an extremely complicated method.

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You would need to posit why they were undertaking such smuggling, my is was not more securely transported, who it was to be sold to and why a former KGB agent would be undertaking such a dangerous venture without backing from Russia.

In fact, if Litvineko WAS smuggling Polonium that means he was stealing it from the Russian state to sell to Terrorists, possibly Chechens given his political leanings, which would be a compelling reason for Putin to kill him.

It would be poetic to do it with Polonium, no?

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

You would need to posit why they were undertaking such smuggling, my is was not more securely transported, who it was to be sold to and why a former KGB agent would be undertaking such a dangerous venture without backing from Russia.

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Polonium is an important element in nuclear weapons triggers, and thus, smuggling of Polonium would presumably be a very lucrative activity for an ex-spy who is believed to have been facing serious economic difficulties as his erstwhile employer and sponsor, Boris Berezovsky, was increasingly disinclined to provide further funding.

According to The Independent, Litvinenko told the Italian academic he met on the day he fell ill that he had organised the smuggling of nuclear material out of Russia, for his security service employers, to Zürich, Switzerland in 2000.[63] Though no mention is made in the allegations of the specific nature of the nuclear material.

Mary Dejevsky wrote that her explanation of Litvinenko's death was the careless handling of radioactive material.[64] Dejevsky wrote that "no one in Britain," including Litvinenko's widow, has seen the documents Britain sent to Moscow in support of Lugovoy's extradition request.

The Russian lower house MP Andrei Lugovoi has also speculated, that Litvinenko's death may be the result of his careless handling of polonium. "One of the core versions could be that Litvinenko carelessly handled polonium which he may have had. His real hatred for those in power in Russia then, for the intelligence service, for everything Russian should be taken into account."[65] It should be noted that Andrei Lugovoi's ongoing extradition is being sought by the Crown Prosecution Service in connection with Litvinenko's poisoning.

Dmitry Kovtun said in an interview to Spiegel TV that his radioactive trail was due to his earlier meetings with Litvinenko in London 16–18 October 2006. Kovtun was under investigation by German detectives for suspected polonium smuggling into Germany in October. According to BBC, Litvinenko's bus ticket he used to get to 1 November meeting was not found radioactive.[66]

Joseph Farah claimed at World Net Daily that MI6 had learned about Al Qaida offering millions of dollars to anyone that could supply them with polonium. Farah wrote that GCHQ intercepted a phone call in Peshawar implying that Al Qaida were actively seeking polonium.[67]

Edward Jay Epstein, an American journalist, wrote in the New York Sun that Britain sent "embarrassingly thin substantiation" of its claims against Lugovoy. His hypothesis was that "Litvinenko came in contact with a Polonium-210 smuggling operation and was [..] exposed to it".[68][69]

Russia Today's editors wrote that Epstein said there was "no substantial evidence against Lugovoy".[70]

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In fact, if Litvineko WAS smuggling Polonium that means he was stealing it from the Russian state to sell to Terrorists, possibly Chechens given his political leanings, which would be a compelling reason for Putin to kill him.

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No. Chechen terrorists are unlikely to buy Polonium. What are they going to do with it, poison people? If they want to kill someone, they use bombs and guns, and it would extremely unlikely they would spend good money on that, which could be spent much better on heavier weaponry to counter Russian armour and gunships.

Radioactive material is useful to someone with proper funding and installations to do something with it. It would most probably be a state, maybe some from the middle east, maybe NK, or some well established terrorist organization with a huge amount of money on hand, like Al-Qaeda.

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It would be poetic to do it with Polonium, no?

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I'm not saying there's no chance someone from Russia did it, but there are many far more logical theories.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I'm not saying there's no chance someone from Russia did it, but there are many far more logical theories.

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Whenever someone pisses me off I go down to my basement, scrape some fresh polonium out my nuclear reactor, then invite them for a cup of tea. It could have been anyone. Anyone with a reactor.

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Originally Posted by rvg

Whenever someone pisses me off I go down to my basement, scrape some fresh polonium out my nuclear reactor, then invite them for a cup of tea. It could have been anyone. Anyone with a reactor.

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Seriously? We've been through that. On this page...

Here, have fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xAMYHJYesM

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Originally Posted by Ironside

His closest American equivalence seems to be the neocon.

Low focus on international respect of laws. Low focus on economics (this is going to hurt Russia hard economically). High focus on macho manliness. High focus on national supremacy.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Actually, applying Ockham's Razor would suggest that he and two others were involved in polonium smuggling. Since none of them was an expert, the possibility of poisoning was rather high.

It is by far the simplest theory. Opposed to it was that of all those thousands who badmouthed Putin, he was specifically chosen after 7 years in exile, and those wishing to kill him choose to do it with an extremely complicated method.

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Acutually your theory does not hold up given basic knowledge of polonium you would know its most common form has a half life of 138 days so he would have and to have smuggled it very recently for it to retain any commerical/industrial/weaponised value and/or moved massive quantities. Also polonium is an alpha emitter is easy to contain the radiation to the point skin is generally thick enough to stop it. Alpha emitters are only deadly when breathed or consumed as the lungs and inner organs get directly radiated.

So for your theory to hold any substance he would have had to recently smuggled condoms filled with polonium in his stomach from Russia and one or more would have to have burst.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Acutually your theory does not hold up given basic knowledge of polonium you would know its most common form has a half life of 138 days so he would have and to have smuggled it very recently for it to retain any commerical/industrial/weaponised value and/or moved massive quantities. Also polonium is an alpha emitter is easy to contain the radiation to the point skin is generally thick enough to stop it. Alpha emitters are only deadly when breathed or consumed as the lungs and inner organs get directly radiated.

So for your theory to hold any substance he would have had to recently smuggled condoms filled with polonium in his stomach from Russia and one or more would have to have burst.

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There are other ways he could have ingested Polonium.

I have absolutely no idea what happened to him. I'm just saying there are many possibilities, and that it's silly to say "Putin did it" when there are more logical theories.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

There are other ways he could have ingested Polonium.

I have absolutely no idea what happened to him. I'm just saying there are many possibilities, and that it's silly to say "Putin did it" when there are more logical theories.

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What Pape's saying is - he would have needed to eat it.

A tin box, indeed a cardboard box, would have made it safe to transport - if he was a KGB Polonium smuggler in a past life, he would not have irradiated himself.

What wine goes with polonium?

"he would have needed to eat it." So someone very closed to him gave it to him. Putin of course...

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

What Pape's saying is - he would have needed to eat it.

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I understood him. Isn't that what "ingest" means: to eat, drink, take in, imbibe... ?

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A tin box, indeed a cardboard box, would have made it safe to transport - if he was a KGB Polonium smuggler in a past life, he would not have irradiated himself.

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It doesn't mean he couldn't have made a mistake. How was the material transported, where it was stored, who could access it... German and Italian sources mention he was involved in smuggling. To whom was he selling it? Al-Qaeda? Rogue states? Maybe the Brits or Americans whacked him, to stop radioactive material from getting to the hands of Al-Qaeda. Maybe it was one his partners in crime, maybe it was an accident due to inexpert handling, maybe it was a different grudge from the past, maybe it was Berezovsky, his financial backer with whom he had a falling out, and yes, maybe it was Putin himself...

There are many theories, and I won't even pretend I have a vague idea what happened.

Looking at the facts, Putin theory is one of the least likely theories out there. Putin would single out him out of thousand people who was badmouthing him and bringing to light his crimes in Chechnya or elsewhere, then kill him, transforming him from a virtual unknown to a household name, seven years after he defected, using most complicated method possible...

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Looking at the facts, Putin theory is one of the least likely theories out there. Putin would single out him out of thousand people who was badmouthing him and bringing to light his crimes in Chechnya or elsewhere, then kill him, transforming him from a virtual unknown to a household name, seven years after he defected, using most complicated method possible...

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It's not like he starts to take chunks of a country that said no to him on something...

Putin is big on posture. Even if he wasn't responsible, he doesn't seem to mind looking like it.

I credit Putin for not really caring about "fantasy news". No doubt he also has some connection to the Malaysia Airline disappearance, the Mayan Calender and the Bermuda Triangle.

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Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny

I credit Putin for not really caring about "fantasy news". No doubt he also has some connection to the Malaysia Airline disappearance, the Mayan Calender and the Bermuda Triangle.

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Like the fantasy news of that Russian journalists are killed by the dozen and Russia is one of the most dangerous countries for journalists in the world, and Putin doesn't seem to care?

See, in the game of politics, you can do something about rumors without commenting on them directly. Your reputation affects what accusations and rumors that stick.

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

My favorite president (politics aside, of course) has some paintings that Putin ought to check out.

George W Bush paintings on display http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-26890910

:yes:

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Those are actually pretty cool and quite sharply observed.

I don't much care for Bush jr.
It might not be him personally, but he headed (was figurehead) for the worst exploitation of the "politics of fear". I have no respect for that...ever.

I prefer Hitler's paintings, they also look better.

http://www.socialphy.com/posts/art/8...Paintings.html

Of course I also admire his intelligence, wit, humor and how he had this realistic self-image and stayed down-to-earth-genuine in his ways.
Just too bad that he was later blamed for starting a war when he was merely trying to stem the tides as the head of a genuinely evil administration that really thought it was doing the right thing though...

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Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Hell, his dad was even cooler. Bush Sr. was everything from a ww2 fighter pilot to the architect of illegal and frankly immoral covert wars in South America as head of the CIA before being president.

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I thought 41 flew Avengers. Oh well, neither here nor there. He was the then youngest ever navy pilot; did head the CIA, also served as our inaugural ambassador to the PRC.

I think it was a Wild Cat (F4F), on show at the Museum at Washington DC.

Wiki says Seamus wins:

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After Bush's promotion to Lieutenant (junior grade) on August 1, 1944, the San Jacinto commenced operations against the Japanese in the Bonin Islands. Bush piloted one of four Grumman TBM Avenger aircraft from VT-51 that attacked the Japanese installations on Chichijima.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_...h#World_War_II

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Originally Posted by Husar

I prefer Hitler's paintings, they also look better.

http://www.socialphy.com/posts/art/8...Paintings.html

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...vienna's fine arts academy rejected that? Jesus what did you need to do to get in, fully depict each ass hair of every rat in the gutters of a 30 ft square depiction of the entire florentine skyline?

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Of course I also admire his intelligence, wit, humor and how he had this realistic self-image and stayed down-to-earth-genuine in his ways.
Just too bad that he was later blamed for starting a war when he was merely trying to stem the tides as the head of a genuinely evil administration that really thought it was doing the right thing though...

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Should have mentioned the drugs, nothing pushes up a hitler sympathy diatribe better than noting the coctail of mind altering drugs hitler's doctors used to keep him "healthy".

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

...vienna's fine arts academy rejected that? Jesus what did you need to do to get in, fully depict each ass hair of every rat in the gutters of a 30 ft square depiction of the entire florentine skyline?


Should have mentioned the drugs, nothing pushes up a hitler sympathy diatribe better than noting the coctail of mind altering drugs hitler's doctors used to keep him "healthy".

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If I recall, they said he was technically competent, but lacking individual style - they felt his work was merely derivative. According to his grandchildren, he used to go on big rants about how rubbish the impressionist masters were.

"According to his grandchildren" You lost me here. Whose grand-children? Hitler's?

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Originally Posted by Brenus

"According to his grandchildren" You lost me here. Whose grand-children? Hitler's?

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They lived in Brazil for a while.
https://i.imgur.com/CAieQ0g.gif

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

...vienna's fine arts academy rejected that? Jesus what did you need to do to get in, fully depict each ass hair of every rat in the gutters of a 30 ft square depiction of the entire florentine skyline?

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Take a look at the proportions(which is what an art academy cares about).

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Take a look at the proportions(which is what an art academy cares about).

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Art is definitely not my forte. What's so wrong with proportions?

To me, they just look somehow lifeless.

Some of the art back that was really horribly done. I cannot name the piece, but I remember it being done around the early 1900s which is meant to be describing Urban life and it looks like it was drawn by a 8 year old. This is remembering from over 10 years ago in GCSE History.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Art is definitely not my forte. What's so wrong with proportions?

To me, they just look somehow lifeless.

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Well, take a look at the building on the right on the third painting: the length between the windows and the roof decreases way too rapidly. There are problems with depth in all of those paintings.

Nothing I would care much about, but it was a focus in arts academies of the day.

That's not to say that he was rubbish, of course. There were loads more painters back then than we have now, all trying to get into these academies. It's comparable to the guitarists of today: most good guitarists will never become famous, there are simply too many good ones.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Well, take a look at the building on the right on the third painting: the length between the windows and the roof decreases way too rapidly. There are problems with depth in all of those paintings.

Nothing I would care much about, but it was a focus in arts academies of the day.

That's not to say that he was rubbish, of course. There were loads more painters back then than we have now, all trying to get into these academies. It's comparable to the guitarists of today: most good guitarists will never become famous, there are simply too many good ones.

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I think that's got more to do with the angle of the shadow, but I see your point...

Thinking about Hitler and art academy always make me wonder if history of the world would be vastly different if he was accepted...

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I think that's got more to do with the angle of the shadow, but I see your point...

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I am far from an arts critic, but that was the answer I got when I asked one...

I would love to own one of Hitler's paintings and hang it up on my wall, then if somebody ever asks me about it I can say "oh that one? that's an Adolf Hitler".

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Originally Posted by Tuuvi

I would love to own one of Hitler's paintings and hang it up on my wall, then if somebody ever asks me about it I can say "oh that one? that's an Adolf Hitler".

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Apparently the affectation would cost you about 40k USD per painting, less for the tinted postcards. Wiki

Pat Buchanan defends Putin