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Greek Cities is a breeze. Lots of early ports with Colossus. Many Greek culture cities to take. Early access to a bunch of wonders.
Gaul starts with some very good cities.
Egypt ditto and again early access to a bunch of wonders.
For my style of play Britons and Germans don't seem suitable because of city promotion limits (but still considered).
Otherwise which faction is the most difficult to win with?
I'd like to remind you (kindly, of course~;)) that this forum is for faction specific discussions, or other aspects of gameplay. Topics like this one really should be posted in the main forum.
That said, Parthia is the most difficult, IMHO. Crappy infantry inherently, and no other way to get any except mercs. Only get one temple, and not a very good one, at that. Starting position is precarious. Except for Susa, starting cities are poor and slow 'growers'. Seleucia gets you a good city and the "Hanging Gardens", but gets you into a war with one of the richer, and more powerful factions. The Big E will be on that list shortly.
When I've played them, I go straight for Seleucia, abandon Sakae (it's just too far away to control, and too poor to be of much worth), and concentrate on getting cavalry barracks developed, ASAP. Persian Cavalry are a decent horse archer, but not in the same class as Armenian CA's or Scythian Nobles. Heavy Cats, Ellies, and Persian Cavalry are your mainstays.
Scythia is difficult, as well, but you get serviceable infantry, and the second best horse archer in the game...Scythian Noble Archers. You also get a decent heavy cavalry in the Scythian Nobles, and the Head Hunting Maidens are no pushover, as they use an axe as their main weapon so get an armor-piercing attack. The Scythian Noble Women have a decent missile attack, but the unit is too small to be effective and are not as good as the Noble Archers. The Chosen Archer Warband has to rate in the top 3 for foot archers...equivalent to Germania's/Dacian Chosen Archer.
Distances are huge, and Scythian territories have the highest rates of brigands, in my experience. You pretty much have to have a roving army of generals and horse archers to get to them quickly. When I play them, I abandon Alanni and Sarmatae for the same reasons I let go of Sakae for the Parthians...too poor, and too far away to control. I take those troops, capture Chersonesos, and take Getae from the Thracians in preparation for expansion into Greece. It's a difficult campaign, but not as hard as the Parthians.
Numidia is also pretty difficult mostly from the starting position. Whomever on the dev team that started the Numidians off with Siwa, needs a history lesson. But it's easy to stay away from the Big E for awhile by abandoning Siwa...take those troops and capture Lepcis Magna before the Romans get there. Speaking of the Romans, Numidia needs to get a strong navy up and running, ASAP, because there's no way you can deal with the constant stream of Scipii landing in NA with Desert Infantry and Militia Cavalry. Easier to sink them enroute until you get Long Shield Cavalry and Ellies. You eventually get a Legionnaire clone roughly equal to the Principes, and they become your mainstay later on. It goes without saying that Carthage has to be booted out of Carthage and Thapsus. Again, a difficult campaign to start, but if you can overcome Carthage, and sink anything remotely Roman that gets near your coastlines, you can start to roll.
Germania is easily the best barbarian faction to play, IMHO, and the one I play the most. Excellent infantry roster (Spear Warband, Bezerkers, Chosen Axmen, Night Raiders, Naked Fanatics), the best foot archer in the game (Chosen Archer Warband), and an excellent selection of Cavalry (Barbarian Nobles, Gothic Cavalry). You get decent temples one of which is a good 'growth' temple (Freyja). The choice for the other two (Donar, and Woden) depends on what troops you want, as many of those choices are temple dependent. You are far enough away from the Romans to not have to deal with them right off, and can set about crushing Britannia and Gaul. Eventually you will have to deal with the Romans, but Germania has the roster to fight well against post-Marian Roman troops (Zerkers, when jacked up with bonuses and a good general, can shred even Urban Cohorts). Anyway....I love these guys~:grouphug:Quote:
Germans don't seem suitable because of city promotion limits
Finally, I've got it! I should discuss a specific faction here. But if it's factions in general discuss elsewhere :) This forum thing is complicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
You're a walking Wiki RS.
Your Parthia description paints a picture opposite to my preference (fast growth and never upgrade barracks). OK it's next on the list.
Germania after that. I've never fought a strong Germania so was unaware of the strengths.
Numidia and Scythia. Don't fancy plodding the desert and facing Roman hordes, nor trudging long distances in Scythia (I hate giving up cities).
Whatever you do, stay away from the Big E for as long as possible. You have neither the starting roster, nor the money to fight them off for long. I once had a very nice Parthian campaign going (so I thought) until Palmyra went rebel on them and booted the garrison out. Much to my surprise, I had a boatload of super-peasants and some horse archers flying the Parthian banner:no: I considered just taking the entire stack and heading for Seleucia (which was under my control at the time) but the city was still mine, and when Egypt sieges and captures it, we're still at war. So I fought off the initial siege until another stack showed up and wiped out what was left. Suddenly, they make peace with Seleucia, and turn their full attention on me. Guess what Seleucia does with their temporary reprieve? Yeah...bad enough to be fighting the 'Golden Horde' but now the Seleucids want their city back.:sweatdrop: Needless to say, I got crushed. So when Egypt captures Palmyra, make sure you save your game and reload if the same thing happens (most of the time the city remains rebel if Egypt gets tossed out). Also make sure you grab Phraaspa before Armenia gets there (you are closer and can do it your first turn). Then...make sure they leave. You start with two heavy Cats to their one, and have a better general, so if they offer battle, you should win. I know Phraaspa is piss-poor, but it becomes too tempting for Armenia to be that close to your capital not to attack, and you need Seleucia ASAP.Quote:
Your Parthia description paints a picture opposite to my preference (fast growth and never upgrade barracks). OK it's next on the list.
I think you'll have fun with them...I know I do. What's not to like about their roster?Quote:
Germania after that. I've never fought a strong Germania so was unaware of the strengths.
Numidia is pretty boring, but Scythia is actually quite fun. If you follow my suggestion of abandoning Alanni and Sarmatae and going for Chersonesos and Getae, you can be in Greece proper before the Romans get rolling, and once you get to Scythian Nobles/Archers, the Romans can't stop you. Too bad I deleted my only Scythian game-save (accidently:shame:) or I could show you some screenies. I owned all of Greece and was preparing to invade "The Boot" when it happened, and I didn't feel like replaying the whole thing. I haven't played them since, but it's been awhile and I just might have the patience to have another go....:whip:
If the long distances get to be a pain (I just used older generals and 'retired' Scythian Horse Archers to clean up brigands), you can always leave the steppes to the brigands. You should have all of Greece by then (kinda like Visigoth invasion:shrug:) and be heading for Italy, so it's not like you need the income from those places....
Oh, and btw...Carthage can be a handful. Everyone and their grandmother wants a piece of you (Gaul and Spain in Iberia, Numidia in N. Africa, and the Romans and Greeks on Sicily) but you gotta use your Ellies and have a strong navy, at the start, or you won't survive.
From the outside looking in it seems everybody (including Egypt) attacks the Seleucids. They have several tasty cities ready for picking. So already I have been thinking of heading North at the start as Parthia and leave/take Seleucia depending for me on how things are panning out. What you say explains why I've seen Phraaspa in the hands of both Parthia and Armenia - It'll be Parthia in my game :)
That would suit. If I can't afford to bribe I tend to leave them til I have an army passing on other business. A brigand killer posse sounds interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
That explains why I always find it easy to get a ceasefire with Carthage - they're already under heavy pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
What in the blazes for~:confused: There's nothing up there but long stretches of open steppe, brigands, and really poor cities...Quote:
So already I have been thinking of heading North at the start as Parthia
You should abandon Sakae immediately (put them into the single bireme that you own and will ever need) and head them South. If you want to play a waiting game with Seleucia, take out the Armenians. Pontus will either attack Seleucia or you, in that case. Both are good things...your horse archers will run circles around eastern infantry, and they won't have enough Pontic Heavy Cav at this point to matter much. You'll have to get into it sooner or later with the Seleucids...better to make it sooner when they are weaker:shrug: Susa takes a looong time to reach the point where you can train Persian Cavalry and then Cats & Ellies. Seleucia (the city) gets you there much, much sooner.
I did say I was looking for a test. High level: take Armenia, Pontus and Asia Minor. Then attack in three different directions - Scythia, Greece and Egypt. I don't know if this is practical but that is the plan (flexible of course). Then south through the little cities to Memphis and the pyramids.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
I wouldn't know that, would I? I'm not keen on attracting attention early by taking Seleucia unless I have no option.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
Aye, you did. And tested you will be Jedi....:sweatdrop:Quote:
I did say I was looking for a test.
I would've thought with your attention to detail that you'd have looked to see at what city level you get to build which barracks......~DQuote:
I wouldn't know that, would I?
I have seen Seleucia target Susa while in the midst of getting pounded by the Golden Horde, so keep an eye out for a backstab.....they are Greeks afterall:quiet:Quote:
I'm not keen on attracting attention early by taking Seleucia unless I have no option.
Ha ha.
They don't know what's coming their way. And I'm trying to play Parthia as an innocent.
You just don't understand them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
I'm gonna start Parthia tonight. The GC VH/VH is too familiar. This might surprise you - it's playing easier. The AI seems to be eh, absent. I'm well ahead of where I would expect to be - mind you I've had to change strategy.
Oh I understand them, alright...scheming, dishonest, backstabbing S.O.B.'s:stare: Never, ever, trust a Greek faction. People like to comment that the Romans are never to be trusted...and that's true. But....Quote:
You just don't understand them
....the Greeks have backstabbing down to an art. I had a Carthage campaign awhile back where it seemed convenient to keep them around. I figured to use them as a temporary buffer against the Romans until I had completed my campaigning elsewhere. I gave them a couple of cities, some cash, and granted movement rights through my provinces so they could get from one to another of their split holdings without having to stop next to one of my cities. All well and good. They behaved themselves quite remarkably for perhaps a decade, and were actually doing what I had set them up to do....keep the Romans occupied for awhile.
When the backstab came, I guess I wasn't too surprised but what pissed me off even more was the way it was done. Not in a warrior act of courage by besieging a city, but a little chicken$%#@ port blockade by a single bireme that ran away the following turn. Needless to say, you can guess what happened next~:wave:
Naw, naw. You just don't understand them - cos they speak Greek :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
Those dirty, sneaky, underhand, thick Greek gits!
Played the first five turns of Parthia VH/VH. Avert your eyes if you're finding this too radical :)
Spotted right away I was short of cash and lumbered with poor units. I'll explain my setup and then not bore again unless summat interesting happens.
Turn one. Largest costs associated with the army being too big. Disbanded all cavalry and slinger in Sakae and built a peasant. Left the general there for public order and 90 admin. Similarly in Susa. Formed my main army at Arsakia and headed for Phraaspa. Sent the spy north and the diplomat south. Emphasis on cash buildings and sold unneeded military buildings.
Turn end: Got rebels outside Susa so reloaded.
Turn two: Took Phraaspa. Concentrated one roads, ports, traders and markets. Built other peasants for Sakae and Phraaspa.
Turn end: Both Armenia and Scythia offered trade and maps for nowt.
Turn three: As above. Cash improving. Disbanded the boat. Kept my army in Phraaspa. Trade rights and alliance with Seleucids.
End Turn: Leader died so reloaded, but have to live with a rebel outside Susa that appeared. New general in Phraaspa. Built diplomat in Arsakia.
Turn four: Moved toward Artaxerta. Spy showed barracks no better than mine. Moved diplomat toward Armenia.
End turn: Armenia moved an army to block access by my troops.
Turn five: Bribed Armenan army and got two units then assaulted Artaxerta - gates open and taken. They had built a better barracks so now I can build hillmen. Oh joy. Enslaved and boosted Phraaspa, Sakae and Susa. Will now move my generals out and start building watchtowers. Heading for Kotais soon.
Yeeesh. Hillmen are worthless, IMHO. All of the disadvantages, and none of the advantages of Eastern Infantry.Quote:
They had built a better barracks so now I can build hillmen.
I take it you snagged their Cataphract unit? It's what I do, if that's the case. Better to have the unit fight on your side than against....Quote:
Bribed Armenan army and got two units then assaulted Artaxerta
Nope. I take it because I didn't own a qualifying stable. 262bc - Armenia long gone and making 4k per turn. Abandoned the idea of attacking Pontus so aiming south instead. Two things - I've built a large number of watchtowers to cover the huge area those few cities cover, and interestingly there is a group of rebels causing no devastation in Sakae. I think they were there from the start and they keep more away - so they stay.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
Armenia starts with a single Cat...you should have started with two--designers decision. Has nothing to do with available barracks. You can't replace losses, of course, until you have the appropriate barracks.
Keep an eye out (watchtowers or spy) along the road from Sinope to Kotais. It's Pontus' favorite invasion route if they don't try for Tarsus first. They will attack you sooner or later, but it will be later if they join the Seleucid feeding frenzy. After that, watch for a Pontus-Egypt alliance. Happens more frequently than not, so if you decide, at a later point, to attack them (or they attack you), watch out for Big Brother:sweatdrop:Quote:
Abandoned the idea of attacking Pontus so aiming south instead.
Parthia VH/VH 244bc
Parthia: The towns around the inland sea only sea trade with one other town, so no need to upgrade a port. Susa the top city with 22000 and zero growth (courtesy of slave boosts).
Armenia: Long gone, but against them I won my first horse to horse battle.
Selucids: I'm used to them disappearing like a Cheshire cat, but they've expanded this time. They allied with Pontus, Scythia and eventually Egypt, then attacked me. Their troops back off as though not keen on fighting my horse. Selucia and two small towns taken.
Pontus: As predicted they sent a bunch of armies against Kotais. I was forced to build a small army and had 3 heroic victories before taking Sinope (20k size, enslave boosted other towns, can now build cataphracts).
Egypt: Have three large armies just inside my borders but not doing anything. My assassins are busy. Getting ready to attack them starting with Palmyra.
Scythia: No activity.
:2thumbsup: Sounds like you are having fun with it.....
Aye, It's highly entertaining. The long-lasting horse archers are deadly in battle. Highlight so far - watching an Armenian scythed chariot running amok and killing the enemy leader, forcing another scythed chariot to go amok and both decimating their own troops :)
Now that would be a highlight...except Armenia doesn't get scythed chariots:quiet:Quote:
Highlight so far - watching an Armenian scythed chariot running amok and killing the enemy leader
~;)
Ooops, Pontic outside Kotais.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
Seleucids and Egyptians are continually backing off. Example: Egypt has 5 full armies in the Palmyra area (inluding 2 on my territory causing high devastation). So I plant my own size 20 army adjacent to the two hoping to be attacked at turn end. No attack and one of the armies backs off. When I attack the other it retreats and I follow up.
It seems I should be using half size armies to see some action :) That means a complete change of strategy, so instead of feeling I've been wasting conquering time, I'm gonna restart the game (and take account of other minor things like port upgrades being unnecessary in some cases). I also feel short of generals and several of the ones I have are rather elderly - so I'll be looking at that too.
I've found the game to be extremely stingy with family members, at times. I had a Seleucid campaign once where I had conquered some 15 territories beyond my original 5 and I had exactly 3 family members left. I hadn't lost any in battle, none to plague, and none to bribe. All the potential husbands for my daughters were in their late forties or older, so I passed on all of them. I considered bribing a few, but there weren't any brigand generals, and most of what Egypt had left was crap. The AI does make adjustments, however. I got three consecutive "Man-of-the-Hour" events in three rather insignificant battles. MotH generals tend to be very good (3-star, usually) so I could finally get my family tree up and running again....Quote:
I also feel short of generals and several of the ones I have are rather elderly
I couldn't handle that - I've certainly been spoiled by Greek Cities. I need 'spares' for my nefarious slave boost activities and I accept all proposals in the hope they'll start breeding immediately :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
MotH seems like a good option for Parthia - I'll have a go.
Just hope the rebels do not take the towers over. If they move onto the tower you will lose the sight that tower gives. I don't know if that works for opposing factions as well. I don't remember, I thought Hillmen were better than Eastern Infantry. Why else would they be in a better barracks?~:confused: One thing about Parthia, you don't have to invest in barracks, stables and archery range, just stables and archery range. That saves some money. Merc Hoplites would certainly come in handy for garrison duty.
Is that even possible? I have never seen a watchtower change hands except if a different faction other than the tower builder occupies the province. I don't think you can even move into the coordinates occupied by the tower:shrug:Quote:
Just hope the rebels do not take the towers over.
Don't ever recruit Hillmen unless it's a dire emergency. They have all of the disadvantages of Eastern Infantry, and none of the advantages. Eastern Infantry get a bad rap, IMHO. They get a bonus fighting cavalry, and have a base defense of 10, and in desert conditions, they get a movement bonus. Granted an attack value of 3 is pretty paltry, but don't overlook the bonuses granted by a good general. In the hands of a 5-star general who is, say, a Legendary Infantry commander, that 3 attack value becomes 13. I'm certainly not advocating they become an army mainstay, but their mass, speed, and cavalry bonus make them more useful than you might think. Early in the game, I like to use them to spring traps by luring opposing cavalry towards them with my horse archers. Even cataphracts can be overwhelmed by a massed EI attack.Quote:
I don't remember, I thought Hillmen were better than Eastern Infantry.
Besides, as Parthia, once you get to your Ellies and Heavy Cats, you won't need them any more~;)
I have not really examined the units, so I fully acknowledge my ignorance in that matter. I just know EI rout very quickly. And right, as Parthia, better to sally forth and wreak havoc with the cav than let the enemy assault the city. As factions such as Greece or Macedon, it is easier to let them assault and fight them in the streets, with help from your walls. Phalanx are a lot easier to use when the enemy is marching through narrow streets. Rome can go either way. As for the towers, I have had rebel units move onto the coordinates of towers in the campaign map, and I lost the line of sight that tower provided. I can attack them and drive them away, and I get the line of sight back. Is there a thread about how a general's attributes affect his units?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...mmand-stars-doQuote:
Is there a thread about how a general's attributes affect his units?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...cts-of-Command
My appreciation of generals attributes went up dramatically after reading those two threads. The bonuses granted to troops often becomes the difference between victory and defeat. You asked me once how I could charge my Heavy Cats frontally into phalanx. The answer is in the commanding general's bonuses. I would never do that with a fledgling general unless I was desperate. But in the hands of a Legendary Cavalry/Legendary Attacker/Legendary Commander (bonuses stack)......SPLAT!
Thanks for the links.:hail:
Back to the Parthian infantry, I did some research. Somebody on the Total War Heaven forum did a one-on-one on Medium difficulty. It took an experience+2 unit of his Hillmen to beat a standard unit of AI EI, and then it was close, the extra men make the difference. By the screenshot he posted, Hillmen vs EI: Attack:5-3 Charge Bonus:2-1 Defense:9-10. Eastern Infantry have 120 men, poor morale, can sap, bonus vs cav. Hillmen have 80 men, bonus fighting cav, can sap, can hide in long grass, fast-moving, may charge without orders, good stamina. The one-on-one says it all, though. EI also did better against all other units tested: Barb. Cav, Swordsmen, Scythe Chariots, Archers, Militia Hoplites. So yes, EI are better. They cost 40 more, but upkeep is 20 less, so you get more for your money. He also tried 3-3, and EI still won.
Quotes from other threads:
This current game I'm playing is very different to the first. A medium Scythian army toddled toward Phraaspa and back, and a Scythian general with a horse archer army moved in and out of Sakae several times. I knew the writing was on the wall and shortly after the general appeared on my northern border and the army that had been loitering besieged Kotais. Luckily my army that had stuffed Armenia was still around and with a few reinforcements and heavy touch and go fighting I was forced to take Alanni. Fighting Scythian HA is a painful experience :)Quote:
I've never had problems with Scythia
I just don't like giving up cities so I keep Sakae.Quote:
But my way is certainly not the only way
If Scythia attacks you probably don't have any option.Quote:
It may or may not be a bad idea to take Alanni
In my previous Parthian game by 240bc Sakae has a 15k population and 2 peasants to hold it at 70% - showing a net profit and contributing 700 to army costs. It is poor in trade but generates nearly 900 farming with irrigation built - more when I take Selucia. When I move capitals it will no doubt give me trouble but that is expected.Quote:
It won't take long till you have public order problems there (Sakae) anyway
Even Scythia thinks it's too remote :)Quote:
nobody goes after it (Sakae), meaning you don't need much of a garrison
Finally, this time Egypt has taken Selucia and currently has a full army heading for Arsakia and another moving into Susa from the south (war not declared yet). My army from Alanni is pelting south and I'm building units hand over fist :)
Do you prefer to fight in town or open field? As Parthia, probably better to fight in the open field, though in the town their chariots will be next to useless. I find slingers to be effective against chariots and light infantry, RS may have something to say about that~D. Also, they can serve as fodder for their bowmen. How much have you fought against Egypt, if you have been Greece probably a lot.
I never did any empirical testing like the folks at TWH, but my battlefield experiences told me that EI were better against most other units than Hillmen, and, as you pointed out, they are cheaper to keep.Quote:
The one-on-one says it all, though. EI also did better against all other units tested: Barb. Cav, Swordsmen, Scythe Chariots, Archers, Militia Hoplites. So yes, EI are better.
Can't fault you there. However.....in one of my early Parthian campaigns, I ended up at war with Scythia, Seleucia, Armenia, AND the Big E. Not much fun when you run out of money because you have to keep so many armies in the field to fend them off. So I greatly reduce the possibility of war with Scythia by removing their closest target. Even if they send an army south to attack you in Colchis or Media, crush it and they will be hard pressed to send another for a very long time.Quote:
I just don't like giving up cities so I keep Sakae.
........what I said......:creep:Quote:
and a Scythian general with a horse archer army moved in and out of Sakae several times
Once I take Seleucia, Hatra, and Sinope, my capital goes to Hatra, so I just anticipate the inevitable.....you don't have a good enough law-and-order temple to swing it, and getting it to ZPG is verrrry difficult.Quote:
When I move capitals it will no doubt give me trouble but that is expected.
Your a horse archer faction here, not a bunch of stone-chuckers:bounce:Quote:
RS may have something to say about that
Open field unless heavily outnumbered when I take as many with me as I can. If it's open field I always go out the side door. You get all the time you need to organise your troops (the AI mostly stays where it is).Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
I never build slingers but do use mercs if needed. The idea of using them as a cheap distraction for enemy archers sounds like a very good idea - I'll try that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
A lot. My assassins are usually very busy and as Greek Cities you can often bribe a fair sized army. Not impressed by their troops but I know I'm in for a fight if I see Pharaoh's Guards and Archers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
Get the horse archers on the infantry. If you don't have other infantry, you don't want slingers. How do HA's do against chariots, I have not used them much. I know foot archers do a good number on them. Parthia gets a decent foot archer unit, right? I guess it all depends on how you want to fight. Also, I have little experience with HA's, so you know more about that than I do.Quote:
Your a horse archer faction here, not a bunch of stone-chuckers
After taking Alanni there is no sign of another Scythian army (I now have some watchtowers on the border). Interestingly, when that general appeared in Sakae I though it prudent to start building some units. I had built 2 HA when it disappeared - but later when they attacked it was those 2 HA that actually took Alanni with my main army coming up. It's something we talked about before - I besieged with a small army, they attacked from the city (an HA and two ground units) and my HA destroyed them from the high gound outside.Quote:
crush it and they will be hard pressed to send another for a very long time.
I was planning on Jerusalem, then Rhodes, then Sparta.Quote:
my capital goes to Hatra
You know slingers disappear into the distance under attack. That could be useful if they take a couple of Scythian HA with them (for instance). They won't last long, but long enough for you to badly damage the rest of their troops with your main army.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
In my experience not very well - chariots are too spaced out and seemingly unpredictable. Luckily against scythed chariots you only need to kill a few before they go amok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
I can't think of a good reason for building them when you have HAs. Bribed units seem to be handy though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
If you have other infantry, and with Parthian infantry why would you train them, other than as garrison troops, then you don't want archers with your army. The slingers can actually do a pretty good number on the HA's, at least until their numbers get whittled down. If the enemy is sitting, run the slingers to attack the HA's. They will take casualties, but should be able to inflict quite a few themselves in that situation, I don't know how quickly HA's take them down. If they do last till they run out of stones, yeah, turn them on skirmish and distract the enemy HA's. (Personally I think slingers are underrated. If you play the Europa Barbarorum mod:2thumbsup: you will find them even better, even against armour.) You will probably get some of them back anyway, against the HA's. I don't like to do much fighting in the open field, at least not if I think I am in for more than one battle. I like to be able to replenish my losses quickly, so I like to be in a situation where if I take heavy casualties, I can withdraw to a town within two turns, retrain, and then strike again. The enemy can't build a new army that fast, just bring one in from elsewhere.
You clearly know more about them than I do. Currently as Parthia I'm struggling to work out how to use them in an army of HAs whose ammunition lasts to the end of most battles. That's the reason if I used them it would be as a distraction - on the other hand if they are as capable against HAs as you say then they have to be considered against the likes of Scythia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
I actually will use them as part of my army if I can't field archers. Depends on who I am fighting, I will hire Balearic/Rhodian Slingers. Running some Rhodians behind Armoured Hoplites as a desperation attempt, I decimated the Armoured Hoplites. I know that Slingers decimate Spanish units and skirmishers such as Velites and Peltasts, and they do very well against chariots (how I found out about that was as Parthia against Scythed Chariots). With some experience and elevation they can hurt armoured units, but not before they have some experience. Slingers target individual soldiers in a unit instead of targeting the unit itself like archers do. Don't put slingers behind your troops (at least at the same or lower elevation), you will suffer from friendly fire. Putting them at a higher elevation is fine. If I do move them behind, I turn them off fire at will. For archers/Chariot Archers, and probably works for Horse Archers, I tell them to attack. Their max range is before the HA's start moving away due to skirmish mode, so they will be hitting them. Of course, they will be firing back. I can't say how effective they are vs Pharoah's Bowmen.
H-O-R-S-E A-R-C-H-E-R-S!!! Guys...you have to think like Mongols here:inquisitive: Foot infantry, slingers, and archers are for set-piece sieges of cities where cavalry is of little use. For Parthia, it's all about Horse Archers, Elephants, and Heavy Cats. That's what wins field battles, and field battles are what allows you to expand your empire.
Once Egypt gets to Desert Axmen, no amount of slingers, archers, or Eastern Infantry is going to win your field battles. You are going to see a constant diet of Desert Axmen, phalanx of some sort (Nile Spear & Pharaoh's Guard), and hordes of Chariot Archers. The Axmen will eat EI for lunch, and are fleet of foot enough to run down skirmishers. You will not be able to flank them with slingers because the Chariot Archers roam Egyptian flanks and will either shoot the slingers to pieces or rip them apart in close melee. As Parthia, your only good counter is Elephants to break their infantry, Heavy Cats to kill them, and Persian Cavalry to deal with the Chariot Archers.
@ Vincent---One thing you are overlooking with an all-cavalry army is the distance they can cover on the campaign map. Where an army containing infantry might have enough mobility to fight one or two offensive battles, an all-cavalry army can fight three, four, and sometimes five battles on the same turn, depending on general attributes. Check this out:
http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/a...man/BSS_12.jpg
The army standing on the bridge was back at Campus Lazyges last turn (and it destroyed a Roman army along the way just across the bridge where all the devastation is)...and that's a dirt road the general took his army along; the other army was standing near Bylazora the previous turn...thank you for the highway, Roman dogs~D Yes, both generals had movement traits and as many movement-bonus ancillaries as would stack giving both a huge range-of-operation...which would have been significantly smaller had either of them been toting foot soldiers along.......
And btw, on the next turn one general destroyed that Julii army and the other stood next to Segestica without laying siege and was attacked by one of those nearby Brutii stacks. After wiping out all the units (paying particular attention to not allowing any town garrison units to survive), Segestica rebelled on the Brutii, forcing them to recapture it and buying me enough time to get a siege army out there to relieve the poor peasants of Illyria of their Roman oppressors~D The tactic of standing right next to a city but not laying siege when there are free stacks about is a great way for a horse archer faction to destroy a city garrison without having to actually siege it. A case where the usually timid AI should just remain so.....
Think like Mongols...move fast, hit hard, and move fast again.........
You're speaking to the converted here.
I think Vincent is posting about these because he's currently playing Greek Cities.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
A point about slingers. I've never noticed casualties caused by slingers placed behind my front line because enemy archers or heavy cavalry will inflict many more. I've seen it posted I should place slingers ahead of my phalanx. I think that not a good idea because they move backwards into your lines where they will cause significant friendly fire losses. I think you should always place slingers where they are most use irrespective of the minor casualties they cause.
Aye - they have longer range and better armour. Shame they have less ammunition than HAs.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
I use a variation of your tactics for Parthian sieges. I separate out the foot soldiers (usually 3) and they tag along behind the faster horse. I can then siege with the horse and build rams so that I can immediately assault when the foot solders come up next turn.
Slingers are a direct line-of-fire shooter. As such, they need to be in front of your main battle line. When you retreat them behind the line, you remove the fire-at-will option and they cease shooting...unless you are sitting on a hill high enough to allow them to continue firing over the heads of your front.Quote:
I've seen it posted I should place slingers ahead of my phalanx. I think that not a good idea because they move backwards into your lines where they will cause significant friendly fire losses. I think you should always place slingers where they are most use irrespective of the minor casualties they cause.
And where exactly would you place them 'where they are of most use'? On the flanks? Now you tie down your cavalry to protecting them from enemy cav...and if you have seasoned and buffed Baleraeic Slingers, I doubt your friendly fire casualties will be "minor":shrug:
He certainly does like his "stonechuckers"...~D As the GC, I prefer Cretan Archers; longer range, higher damage, and no need to micro-manage for direct-line-of-fire...and being the GC's, you have access to them in three different areas so it doesn't take too long to accumulate a pile of them...Quote:
I think Vincent is posting about these because he's currently playing Greek Cities.
I don't retreat them if they're ahead of the front line - the AI does when the enemy advances. The slingers then back into your phalanx where, because they are firing amongst your troops, losses are likely to be higher, and additionally the enemy fire aimed at the slingers will hit the closely packed spearmen. So I would not place slingers in front of my troops.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
That depends on the person fighting the battle and the situation. My default is just behind the front line.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
In a test with Rhodian slingers just behind 2 phalanx they were exactly that - minor. The test was against non missile troops and considering there were 160 slingers casualties after several turns were in low single figures. Meanwhile those Rhodians were dishing it out - so I therefore ignore friendly fire chances and concentrate on optimum positioning.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
BTW I haven't built or used slingers as Parthia :)
I've remembered more detail on the test I ran to get an idea of friendly fire casualties. It was early in a Greek Cities campaign. There's a group of rebels near Halicarnassus that I bribed (2 hoplite, a Rhodian and a Cretean). I added a militia phalanx and left the Cretan behind and went looking for trouble. The line was the militia hoplite an 2 hoplites with the Rhodians stretched out just behind. The militia took the most casualties and the hoplites less. The conclusion I came to was that the better the troops in the line the fewer the casualties. That's why with my default armoured hoplite front line I don't notice friendly fire casualties.
Perhaps I need to clarify a bit further...remove the skirmish mode during deployment. Then they stand their ground until they receive orders to move behind the infantry, where you remove the fire-at-will....no friendly fire casualties. I use archers the same way except that once they are tucked safely behind the front line, removing the fire-at-will is not necessary.Quote:
The slingers then back into your phalanx where, because they are firing amongst your troops, losses are likely to be higher
I find it highly suspect that you could be shooting your own men in the back with an armor-piercing projectile, and not suffer significant casualties. I've seen the rapidly, red-blinking unit card because a unit was getting hosed in the back from missile fire, all too often....and from the way Vincent describes how he uses his slingers to shoot AH in the rear to kill them, makes me even more suspect that casualties could be "light".
Yep...and IIRC, none of those units have experience chevrons or equipment upgrades....a missile attack of 4 is pretty paltry....when it gets jacked to 9 or 10 the friendly fire casualties will increase accordingly.Quote:
There's a group of rebels near Halicarnassus that I bribed (2 hoplite, a Rhodian and a Cretean
In any case, I never use slingers anymore, so however you use them is the best way for you~;)
I agree with just about everything you say except:
If I remember right those were against an already engaged phalanx by slingers actually aiming at them :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
I like using Rhodians and Balearics with factions where missile options are limited and mostly against generals.
Almost correct, they were advancing on my main line, but they were not yet engaged. I have not experienced horrible slinger friendly fire casualties yet, but that is because I used Balearic/Rhodian, who open fire at longer ranges, with more of a trajectory, so there were less stones at a trajectory to cause FF, and the one or two casualties I did take made me turn fire at will off. I know RS likes Horse Archers, but I am an infantry general.Quote:
Originally Posted by williamsiddell
I don't know that Slingers are AP in RTW. They certainly don't seem like it.Quote:
shooting your own men in the back with an armor-piercing projectile
I have posted numerous posts mentioning my use of slingers. It always draws the same reaction.:bounce: They are more effective in Europa Barbarorum than RTW. By the way, slingers were very much a part of the Assyrian army (I know, ancient, but they had HA's and CA's as well), they even had Armoured Slingers, part of their Heavy Infantry category. But I digress. Against light infantry, for non-horse archer factions, slingers work better than foot archers, in my opinion. As Parthia, I would not use slingers much other than in garrisons, my Parthia campaigns were when I was just getting into the game so I had no clue what I was doing. Bear in mind Carthage, Spain, and Britannia don't get foot or cav archers, Britain does have their Light Chariots and Carthage their War/Armoured Elephants. Different purposes. I have yet to try Slingers against HA's. Of course, even if that works against AI, I could just as easily turn the tables and decimate Slingers with HA's. AI is just that, artificial. For me, slingers hit light infantry, archers hit heavy. My cav plays a supporting role, so I don't commit them to hit missile units unless they are a real bother or the unit has isolated itself from its lines.Quote:
He certainly does like his "stonechuckers"
Guaranteed to wind up RS :) What I can say is they have little FF effect on well promoted AH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
Don't know what EB is, but I've seen a post on another site about RTW2 - 'slingers own horse archers'. Sounds right up your street.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
I assumed, because stones are classified as a blunt weapon, that the main attribute for slingers would be AP like all the other blunt weapon types. I looked in the descr_projectile.txt and the export_descr_unit.txt files in the RTW directory, but couldn't find any wording suggesting an AP attribute. Lots of players swear to the AP attribute, but it's not stated in any game file that I can find...so who knows:shrug:Quote:
I don't know that Slingers are AP in RTW. They certainly don't seem like it.
Horse Archers are so badly modeled in R2, that I refuse to play the game. They don't even get a "Parthian Shot" anymore, and have their fire restricted to an arc. Really? The Parthian Shot was the most deadly feature of horse archers, in the game and historically. Of course there are a lot of other FUBAR'ed features to that game that keeps me from playing it, but....that's another story.Quote:
I've seen a post on another site about RTW2 - 'slingers own horse archers'.
removed dbl. post
Europa Barbarorum is an awesome mod for RTW, more realistic. You can hire regional troops out of a levy barracks (hoplites, Celtic Archers, or Peltasts, for example), or train your troops out of your own, sometimes the levy troops are better. Phalanx on defense is less effective. Rome can only train their regular troops in Italy until the Marian reforms, when they can train their troops anywhere. There are actually three reforms for Rome: you start in Camillan era (Hastati, Principes (as spearmen), hoplite-style Triarii, Leves (skirmishers), Ascensi (slingers), Rorarii (light spearmen, actually called reserve skirmishers), Campanian Cav (skirmisher cav) and Equites Romani (light cav). You go to the Polybian reforms, with Principes now swordsmen and Triarii normal spearmen. The Leves and Rorarii are gone, and replaced by Velites. Oh, if you don't advance your barracks, they still build the old units. You get the Marian reforms once certain conditions are met, and you can get the Imperial reforms, though that is not a given. Hoplites are not phalanx, they and most other spearmen fight overhand. Each turn is one season, so stuff costs more and takes longer to build. There are many regional wonders instead of the seven. Peltasts are actually good, the RTW equivalent is Heavy Peltasts. What was Peltasts in RTW is Akontistai. Those are just a few of the changes. Rome is one faction, no senate, and Egypt is more realistic. I will stop for now, but it is AWESOME.
As someone who uses slingers, I would say that they are definitely not AP in RTW, they are in EB. EB Roman and Hellenistic (Macedonian, Epeirote, Seleucid, etc.) generals are AP as well. Greek Cities generals are hoplites, if the general is from a Spartan family he is a Spartan Hoplite. Several other generals are infantry as well. I understand that RTW2 was pretty bad because of bugs, no concern for me because I don't think my computer could run it anyway.
I think RTW is a great game. The battles are so well done, and terrain actually seems to have a realistic effect. You'd think the only way was up (it's not perfect, as we sometimes point out). It was a player created video of RTW2 I saw and even though it's clearly been fancied up I don't think I'd enjoy RTW2 as much as this game - even if it didn't have the documented bugs and unsuccessful mods.Quote:
in R2, that I refuse to play the game
That's a fair description of your little essay. I think there are a dozen words in there I've never heard before! Certainly explains your interest in the historical side of this game. EB sounds satisfyingly complex - it's considered, and I like the idea of a bigger set of wonders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
In my current Parthia game: Another Scythian general is coming my way and I'm weak up there. I've broken the back of Pontus and in the process one of my generals got +4 defender and +3 Cavalry leader. I've beaten back the Egyptians (as usual they hung about while besieging Arsakia and my Alanni army had time to arrive). I've taken Selucia and I think I'm now in easy street.
Don't ever let him see the inside walls of a city...at least not until he and his wife will not have any more children. I'm a heartless b@$tard, I know:whip: The next generation from him will have a pretty good chance of being awesome....(all the +/legendary stuff has to be earned on the battlefield, but you should get a good jump start in that direction).Quote:
and in the process one of my generals got +4 defender and +3 Cavalry leader.
:creep:Quote:
Another Scythian general is coming my way and I'm weak up there.
I like the title 'Cavalry Commander of Genius', but I'm taking the credit for myself. There are some worrying aspects - he has only a sixteen year old daughter and he's 'scarred'. I hope it isn't in an important place. Plus the daughter is married to Soligdinus the Mange - not very promising is it. :bucktooth:Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
Complex, yes, and I would say more difficult. Then again, I waited for a while to get into RTW because it seemed too complex. There are River Ports in EB, also Naval Ports instead of just generic ports. Some of your trade ports will cost 64,000 Mnai (not Denarii), and those will take I think 64 turns to build. More realistic build times, I guess, that is 16 years. The map is bigger, too, it reaches into India. Mercs cost a lot more, but some of the ones you hire, if they are not listed with Mercenary in their name, can be retrained if in the right region with the right barracks, say Celtic Slingers in Gaul. Just more expensive than training them straight out. The factions are more realistic, for instance, Scythia is replaced by Sarmatia as Scythia was virtually gone by that time. Many factions have Greek influence. I could go on and on, but I don't want an eighteen page post, so I will stop.
From what I've seen...agreed.Quote:
I don't think I'd enjoy RTW2 as much as this game
In MTW2, I once had a daughter named Thos the Gorgon. She actually married quickly:date:, and her husband instantly got the trait "Wife is a Wretch".:flame:Quote:
Plus the daughter is married to Soligdinus the Mange - not very promising is it.
Scarred type traits do help some, right, as far as battle is concerned?Quote:
he's 'scarred'.
Ha ha - some people have no luck.
I think +4 hit points (possibly because there's less to hit).Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
Wasn't the Parthian shot restricted to the HA's of that region, or was that standard HA procedure, it is the Parthian shot and not the Scythian Shot, after all? I was thinking, and I could very well be wrong, that that was a tactic used, or at least started, by the Parthians.
Siddell, I forgot to mention another interesting feature in EB, if you do not share a culture with the town you took over, you will need to build your own culture's military buildings, Rome shares with nobody. It says on the building description which cultures that building works for. So you can't always take over a town and automatically start retraining. And the units you train depend on the government system you choose to set up in that city, which also has regional limitations. I think that is all I will say for now, as you can see, very complex.
Just taken Antioch with the army that is stuffing Pontus. I'm overwhelmed - I can now build war elephants! I'm gonna rest on my laurels for a day or so now.
Parthia was a well-kept secret. How can you lose with a basic unit like HAs, Persian Cavalry, Cataphracts and War Elephants (as well as something called camel cataphracts)?
I've checked out EB and it looks like it's a mere two downloads away. Am I right? And will it overwrite the RTW exe?
Copy the RTW stuff, and save it elsewhere, that way you have the basic to fall back on or play. You will have a separate exe. I believe you are supposed to have a clean version of Rome, what that means I am not sure, I took it to mean no saved game, though I don't know. I do know that because I had a copied RTW file, I could play either RTW or EB, so I don't think you have to clear your saved games. Two downloads is right. It is a bit unstable, meaning more crashes. Don't be frustrated if it gets to a point where everytime you try to end turn it crashes. Most of my EB campaigns hit that point eventually.
So you are doing well for money? That is what killed my Parthia campaigns. Early on, how did you deal with chariots? Just curious for when I start one with Parthia again.Quote:
Parthia was a well-kept secret
That helps explain why it's free. Sounds worth trying though. Ta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
Not well. Money is tight and I'm spending mostly all I have each turn - but I can still afford all I need. I had money to spend last game, the difference this time is I'm running a larger army and more mercs than I like because of simultaneous attacks by Scythia and Egypt. Things will settle down when the cities I've taken start generating cash and I can dump some troops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
I assume you are trying to take Turkey so you can get to Greece? Once that happens, your money supply should skyrocket. Are you actively going after Scythia, or just defeating them when they come around? As you probably figure, actually going after Scythia would not be very cost-effective. What parts of the map do you control?
Note on EB wonders: most of them can be destroyed for cash, some for 20,000 Mnai. Not advisable, they help with trade and/or public order. Also, you have the passageway from the Med to the Gulf of Corinth, so you don't have to go around Sparta. That bay by Athens has a direct crossover to Corinth. Those kinds of wonders cannot be destroyed, nor would you want to. I went back to RTW to take it easy, a lot more casual. I was amazed at how quickly units routed compared to EB.
Early on you could fire at chariots all day with horse archers and not kill them all, so the alternative I use is Eastern Infantry. Chariots seem to like charging troop formation so, I take advantage of that. I line up the EI facing the chariots and when they charge I follow up with anything I've got available - they die quick :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
From what you say I don't think your style suits Parthia so I'm not surprised you ended up skint. For instance you like real garrisons e.g slingers, a peasant cost 100 per turn, a slinger 170. The extra soon mounts up. Parthia is perfect for a stingy git like me.
Strange thing about that...in my last three (consecutive) Armenian campaigns, the first of my generals to achieve that status was named Kudurmabug of Elegia...all three times:crazy:Quote:
I like the title 'Cavalry Commander of Genius'
Yes it started with the Parthians, but was quickly adopted by other horse archer cultures like the Scythians, Huns, Turks, Maygars, and even the Mongols.Quote:
Wasn't the Parthian shot restricted to the HA's of that region, or was that standard HA procedure, it is the Parthian shot and not the Scythian Shot, after all? I was thinking, and I could very well be wrong, that that was a tactic used, or at least started, by the Parthians.
You wound, like Parthians, while you fly,
And kill with a retreating eye.
Pretty aptly describes a horse archer, I think...
Most folks don't like them from the money aspect, but especially because of the reputation for poor infantry. IMHO, they didn't understand what Parthia is all about. You have done remarkably well with them and deserve a hearty:hail:Quote:
Parthia was a well-kept secret.
I'd like to make a suggestion if I might....start with Armenia. You being an infantry type, will find Armenia's roster amenable, at the least. You eventually get the best Horse Archer in the game, and you can stay safely tucked behind the Caucasus Mts. while you pound Pontus into submission. You get quick access to rich port cities like Sinope, Nicomedia, and eventually Sardis and Pergamum. I wrote an extensive Guide to Armenia, if you want to check it out.:shrug:Quote:
So you are doing well for money? That is what killed my Parthia campaigns.
Ummm...horse archers?:quiet:Quote:
Early on, how did you deal with chariots? Just curious for when I start one with Parthia again.
~D
One of the things about this game is you can have a good plan, and then the AI messes it up by attacking when it's clearly a stupid thing to do :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
I attacked down the northern coast of Turkey with a starting army of size six. After several heroic victories on the way, I could see the garrison in Sinope was too big, so I took Masaka first, then Sinope, then Tarsus and almost immediately Antioch. I took Alanni early and Scythia has again besieged it. The army I have inside will beat them, and then I think I have no option but to remove the Scythian threat by going after them - they're an expensive side-show to the main game. I've taken Selucia and closing in on Hatra with 4 or 5 Egyptian armies around the area that I can duff up.
The plan - aim to take Memphis ASAP to make Egyptian buildings mine, then the other Egyptian cities. Clean up in Turkey and move my capital to Sidon or Jerusalem.
Praise indeed. It so happens I have an affinity for horses.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
For sure. That is usually when they attack, is when it is stupid. It's like, "You are the super power. I have two settlements. You have a full army with a wide range of armoured troops, missile units, and heavy cav. I have all Warband. I shall prevail. Why did I just lose all my men in the battle? Revenge will be mine." Even more insulting is when they blockade a port. Cowards. So in your experience, HA's were not good against Chariots, RS liked them for that. Interesting. By the way, as Scythia, your first-level barracks unit is the Horse Archer. Yes, barracks unit. You don't even need a stable for that. RS, you are right, Armenia may be a good transition. That said, I learned to appreciate cav as Macedon. Also, who I fight determines the composition of my army. Instinctively, I would not use HA's against Egypt, but you seem to do well with them; all I know is my first battle against Egypt, as an inexperienced RTW player, my HA's stayed out of range, using Cantabrian Circle, but I got owned everywhere else. I don't even remember all I had, I know HA's and Merc Hoplites, I don't remember what else.Quote:
One of the things about this game is you can have a good plan, and then the AI messes it up by attacking when it's clearly a stupid thing to do :)
You probably remember yourself you can practically count each chariot as it falls under HA attack. It just takes too long for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
Didn't know that about the Scythian barracks - explains the high number they produce.
I use CC with Greek militia cav but not HA. HA has ammunition to last the entire battle and I don't want to exhaust them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
Early Egypt doesn't seem to have much to threaten HAs - including chariots even if you have to fire at them all day. Now I would expect to easily beat a size 20 Egypt with a size 10 Parthian. Not so when I first played the game though.
ws is right...don't waste your time with Cantabrian Circle. It just tires your HA for no discernible gain. With spear-chucking cavalry...they don't have as much ammo, so the Circle will run its course much quicker.Quote:
my HA's stayed out of range, using Cantabrian Circle
I suggested them because of the three horse archer factions in RTW, they have the most balanced roster, so if you find yourself not comfortable with all-cataphract armies, you can go a more familiar route with phalanx, the legionnaire clone, and whatever missile unit suits your needs. They are also more secluded, so you can pick your way a bit less pressed. Pontus is usually your first opponent, although Parthia sometimes comes sniffing around Artaxarta after they occupy Phraaspa.....Quote:
Armenia may be a good transition
In my last Armenian campaign, I tried something I had always wanted to do....a migration campaign. I completely left Armenian traditional lands in favor of a "Black Sea" sojourn. It was a refreshing bit of fun. I posted a thread on it..."Black Sea Serenade".
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...k-Sea-Serenade
Liked the photies. Did you defend your homeland or (since it was a migration) leave the cities to their fate? And where did you plant your capital?Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
I've been caught out by that a lot. I set them up and leave them to it, but when they get to a red line they seem to stop retreating and get massacred. Now if I see that happening I disable skirmish and high-tail it.Quote:
my HA's stayed out of range
For public order purposes the quality of the garrison doesn't seem to matter - only size. So a peasant is not only cheaper but more effective. 240 against 160.Quote:
real garrisons e.g slingers
Sarmatians with Parthia seem a different thing entirely. Enemy missile troops tear them to shreds, so I have them hang back and reserve them for suicide attacks and mopping-up. One other thing. They seem to attract the enemy. Two examples. At a bridge battle I placed them well back and the enemy general charged over the bridge, ignored everything else, and made a bee-line for my Sarmatians. The general caught them and soon had them routing, while I closed in with a couple of my own generals. Also, and this is a cracker, against a small rebel army I moved them wide on the flank waiting to mop-up if necessary, and a rebel spearman did a right turn and headed straight for them!
I've had 7 or so battles as Parthia with no general present (including several against rebels) but no luck with Man of the Hour. I presume this is dice throw dependent with low odds. How do I improve my chances?
I find Parthian cataphracts excellent in city assaults. Two planted across a street slightly overlapped and in defensive mode kill generals. Armoured hoplites in a similar situation under attack by a powerful general last a while, but steadily die. Similarly with cataphracts, but the difference is that they get penetrated and when the general himself ends up amongst them he dies.
Never looked back. My capital moved as I made my way into the Balkans and then Greece. It ended up in Tylis, eventually. LMAO at the Egyptian stack all the way up in Scythian lands looking for me:bounce: The sequence of the Scipii and the Moors was pretty hilarious, as well.Quote:
Did you defend your homeland or (since it was a migration) leave the cities to their fate?
The best chances for MotH seems to come from heroic victories, and yes it's a low-odds dice throw. That's why I was so surprised in the Seleucid campaign that I mentioned...three MotH events in three rather routine battles:shrug:
Perhaps all that falls under the same category as suicide generals. The AI assesses its best unit with yours, and decides it can win:shrug: My favorite in that 'attack the best unit' theme is suicide Roman Triarii (and later the Auxillia) who think that just because game stats say they have a bonus against cavalry that they can go charging head-on into Heavy Cats...heheheh~DQuote:
Sarmatians with Parthia seem a different thing entirely.
Very poignant. But in the spirit of competition:Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
a' that is pronounced 'awe that' Scottish for 'all that'
Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That Man to Man, the world o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that.
The situation by the end of some of my games :)
I have noticed that when I am low on family members I receive more MotH and Candidates for Adoption, kind of the computer keeping the game going. Right about CC, I have learned not to utilize it much, it probably works better against missile troops.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
By Moors, are you talking Numidia?
I think spearmen will automatically go for a cav unit. Auxilia vs Companion Cav...:stars: Archers automatically target elephants. The AI is not dumb, just stupid.
My brother as Scythia mainly fielded just cav, Scythia has a nice selection of good cavalry. Again, it helps with the barracks producing HA's.
I don't like cav in a city period, I keep them in as wide streets as possible.Quote:
I find Parthian cataphracts excellent in city assaults
That didn't work in my last Parthian game - I was permanently struggling for generals. This game I have a bunch more. It would be nice to know what equations the AI uses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
I don't use them as cavalry. Because of their high defensive attributes I'm actually using them as mobile hoplites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
I'm reading up on EB and saw this on FAQ.
Quote:
Q: Why are slingers so strong?
A: Slingers have the AP attribute to represent the power of the lead bullets that they used. Slingers can be more effective against armored units and were historically. Due to the fact that the AI doesn't spam slingers, the EB team has decided to keep their stats the way they are.
For the slingers, I noticed an immediate difference in EB vs RTW. They make a great garrison unit, especially shooting from the walls. From walls, they decimate even good enemy units, and are even better against unarmoured. I usually have at least two slingers, two archers in my garrison. These are just first level units, Celtic Slingers and Ascensi (Roman slingers). Barbarians get stone walls, by the way. There are no peasants that you can train, but you get a peasant unit called Apleutheroi when a town revolts to you. They get a missile attack by throwing stones at the enemy. Your level of barracks determines how many you get.
Right, but hoplites can keep the enemy off them and not take hits, Cataphracts do take hits.Quote:
Because of their high defensive attributes I'm actually using them as mobile hoplites.
Cataphracts are the strongest defensive unit Parthia has. EI can't handle a charge by generals or heavy cavalry, so I use cataphracts as the first line of defense and as general killers. Parthia starts with two, and in fact the first full battle I fought was a siege of Kotais fought outside when the main Armenian army attacked. I lined up the cataphracts 4 deep facing the generals as they approached and killed both when they attacked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
That's more like it - peasants should be next to useless as a military unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
I was hoping you might check the unit desc files for EB to see if slingers are flagged as AP. The reason? RS (and not only he) thought they were AP in RTW.
I would not know how to tell in the descr files, RS checked and said he could not find anything, here is his quote:
Cataphracts are about the strongest defensive unit anybody has, barring Urban Cohort or Armoured Elephants, maybe even better defense. Armoured Hoplites are up there, though.Quote:
I assumed, because stones are classified as a blunt weapon, that the main attribute for slingers would be AP like all the other blunt weapon types. I looked in the descr_projectile.txt and the export_descr_unit.txt files in the RTW directory, but couldn't find any wording suggesting an AP attribute. Lots of players swear to the AP attribute, but it's not stated in any game file that I can find...so who know
Mauretania. When Tingi rebels, those rebels are always called Moors. I had half a mind to send a fleet out there with a spy on board just to see what the heck their army consisted of. Those were post-Marian Scipii the Moors were kicking around~:eek:Quote:
By Moors, are you talking Numidia?
Aye, that they do. The Scythian Noble-Scythian Noble Archer tandem is tough to beat, and the Hunting Maidens make for a great mop-up unit.Quote:
Scythia has a nice selection of good cavalry.
I don't think they are (RTW). What I see, though, is that Rhodian and Balearic Slingers have double the attack value of vanilla slingers. Perhaps the devs acknowledgement that they often used lead shot in place of stones.:shrug:Quote:
RS (and not only he) thought they were AP in RTW.
You know, tanks wouldn't be used as mobile pillboxes for another 2000 yrs, so you're way ahead of the curve in military tactics~;)...you could just recruit some merc hoplites:creep:Quote:
Because of their high defensive attributes I'm actually using them as mobile hoplites.
That's right, I have seen them in Parthian lands. Balearic/Rhodian slingers have greater attack and greater range than normal slingers. What kind of units did the Moors have?Quote:
you could just recruit some merc hoplites
Nothing like a bit of controversy :) I'm playing a game here, and I have very little knowledge of ancient warfare so I use the units given - that at best can only be a crude approximation of actual troops. I do remember a long time ago spearmen beating tanks in Civ - did some not like that! Me. I used the spearmen.
That's OK. I haven't downloaded EB yet and just wondered. I too have had a look ay the RTW file and there is no indication of AP for slingers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
That's why I use them for Parthia. I haven't seen Armoured Elephants, but if they're like the ones I have seen they're probably too spaced out to use as a defensive line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler
Rhodians are flagged as using 'bullet' most of the rest stone (stone-chuckers as you put it). The point I was trying to make is that the devs seem to be saying lead shot (bullet) was AP historically, but it's not implemented as such in RTW' Is it in EB?Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
I haven't seen any around Parthia or I would. Most of the mercs seem to be area dependent - not so for merc hoplites?Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai
Not so far for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Butler