A Thank You, on the Occasion of Veteran's -- Armistice Day

All gave some; some gave all.

Today is the day set aside by many countries, at least in the West, to honor their military veterans. As you students of history will know, the day was chosen because at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month of 1918 an armistice brought and end to the active fighting in "The War to End All Wars." We all know the sad irony of that label.

I hope you will join me in honoring those veterans -- living and among the majority -- for their service. Most of you, rightly, find war outside of video games to be abhorrent and many of you disdain the very idea of nationalism. You may be leery of a day which seems to celebrate militarism and violence, but that is only the trappings of service that make such rollicking movies and stirring stories.

We honor their service.

Many volunteered while others were forced to serve -- but they served. Some served bravely and beyond all expectations, others poorly, not quite able to cope with the horrors they faced. Most just served. Dreaming of home, of a return to their lives, of the communities they had left behind. Some never returned home, others returned scarred and battered, most returned unscathed -- but not unmarked. We asked of them a service -- to take up arms and face others, mostly like themselves and sometimes to harm those other selves on the far side of some 'front line.' We asked, they served....and they always bear the burden of that service for us.

So I ask you to honor their service. Not the jingoisms of their era, or the causes they served, or the sometimes silly notions that drove this conflict or that. I ask you to honor their service to their communities; rendered in good faith at a price so that others in that community need not bear it.

All gave some; some gave all.



To the veterans among us, I thank you. On at least one level, your service, you are a better person than I. To you, and all those others who have joined the majority, I wish Godspeed....and peace.

JEM3



And now a few gems from others much more creative than I:

McRae's "In Flanders Fields" (recited on youtube)

Gelentke's "To Soldiers of the Great War" (English text, did not find the original in German; pm me with link and I will attach)

Bogel's "And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda" sung by John Williamson

Gannon/Crosby's 1943 hit "I'll Be Home for Christmas"

Waters' "Gunners Dream"

and my personal favorite,

Bogel's "Green Fields of France"

I have mixed feelings about this, especially since this tradition seems to be something from / for the victorious countries and here in the Rhineland particularly, it marks the beginning of the carnival season. Carnival itself started here as a mockery of Prussian militarism (so apparently before that war that ended on the same date). Nowadays carnival is mostly very silly though, so I will use the opportunity to thank those who served for good reasons and especially the ones who kept their heart and also served the communities in the countries they were stationed in. We have one on this board who impressed me with what he tried to do for the children in Afghanistan. For this kind of service everyone can and should be thankful IMO. :bow:

Think of them. They went to fish in the same river than me, in the same place, under the same trees. They walked the same path in the forest, smelt the same flowers or the smell of the ground after the storm, after the thunder and the lightnings, had the same sun on their shoulders at the same place, felt the rain and took shelter in the same barn or tree, near the river, at the foot of the hill, near the forest. They watched the sunsets on the pearls of water on the spiderwebs glittering in the new sun. They were the same age than me when I did all these.
The 4th of August 1914, the bells rung and they went by foot, as the peasants they were (and I was) to the answer to the call to arms.
Most of them never came back, some who came back never really did.

"Honneur et Patrie" is on our flags.


http://soutien67.free.fr/histoire/pa..._image_WW1.png

Song: Death. Unfortunatly with stupid pictures.
http://youtu.be/QyHqUdvRrrE?list=RDQyHqUdvRrrE

http://static.lexpress.fr/medias_782...18_4005797.jpg

Song: Can't translate. Like March of the poorest/destitute.
http://youtu.be/dMcBeP-qV1s

http://www.lepoint.fr/images/2013/11...pg_1865003.JPG

To the Dead
http://youtu.be/NPTkrUt1m3I

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

So I ask you to honor their service. Not the jingoisms of their era, or the causes they served, or the sometimes silly notions that drove this conflict or that. I ask you to honor their service to their communities; rendered in good faith at a price so that others in that community need not bear it.

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I can get behind that.

I'll happily honour a conscript; never an enlisted man.

Word War I is fondly remained here. We had fewer dead than the Austrorussians had in Austerlitz, but our ccountry was doubled in size.
Something like Bulgaria in the second one.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I'll happily honour a conscript; never an enlisted man.

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If you can't be respectful, bog off.

All my relative who were fit for it enlisted, because they knew they had to expose themselves to the same dangers everyone else was facing.

My Great Grandfather was enlisted in the army before the war and my Grandfather was a reservist, he spent the entire war protecting the South of England from German Bombers as ADGB, he had bombs dropped on him more than once and he went to his grave with shapnel still in his spine.

Edit: Point of Order, the Armistice came into effect at 1100 11/11/1914, not 1111 11/11/1914.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I'll happily honour a conscript; never an enlisted man.

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Insert Jerking off gif here

My favorite https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rgtsg7QXV7Y

Was it for this the clay grew tall?
Oh what made fatuous sunbeams toil, to break earth's sleep at all?

Powerfull.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

If you can't be respectful, bog off.

All my relative who were fit for it enlisted, because they knew they had to expose themselves to the same dangers everyone else was facing.

My Great Grandfather was enlisted in the army before the war and my Grandfather was a reservist, he spent the entire war protecting the South of England from German Bombers as ADGB, he had bombs dropped on him more than once and he went to his grave with shapnel still in his spine.

Edit: Point of Order, the Armistice came into effect at 1100 11/11/1914, not 1111 11/11/1914.

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I was unaware of that last. I will edit the OP to reflect the correct time.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Edit: Point of Order, the Armistice came into effect at 1100 11/11/1914, not 1111 11/11/1914.

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Short war then. ~;)

"I'll happily honour a conscript; never an enlisted man." So I suggest a trip to the Ossuaire of Douaumont (from "os", bones) where the un-identified remains of thousand are gathered, and start to pick which ones you will honour and the one you won't.

www.verdun-douaumont.com/?lang=en

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douaumont_Ossuary

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I'll happily honour a conscript; never an enlisted man.

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Others may dance around it but I cant be bothered; you're being a bleeding idiot.

Talk about bleeding, kinda angry at everything lately? It should take no more than 3 days for most women usually, or aren't you female but a man who is permanently having a period? EVOLUTION! I am sure everybody understands how you feel.

Chocolate ice is on me.

Huh, when Strike does it he's thanked, when I do it I get hounded by a teenage albatross.

Is there something about texans that makes bluntness charming?

Because Strike doesn't take himself all that seriously and is naturally likable. We can't all be social tigers, it can be noticed even from a screen, when he does it it's funny, when you do it it's sad.

Enough talk, give me your lust and your sorrow

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Huh, when Strike does it he's thanked, when I do it I get hounded by a teenage albatross.

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It's because you, like me, take things too serious.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

Huh, when Strike does it he's thanked, when I do it I get hounded by a teenage albatross.

Is there something about texans that makes bluntness charming?

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Just as I try to avoid personal attacks myself, I try not to thank others for handing them out before they get a warning.
And the sole reason for posting a post should not be to receive thanks, it makes you look desperate and I might feel forced to show compassion or throw you some change, disgusting.

On the topic of who to thank and who not to thank, I will just say that it is of course a complicated issue, like most things involving violent humans. I don't think that most people here envision someone who eagerly signed up for an SS death squad when they thank all those who served. And at the same time, HoreTore may actually be thankful for the Iraqi soldiers who tried to resist American imperialism.
I could go on until everyone hates me, but I won't. I just think it's not a topic for huge blanket statements in either direction.

The problem with Horetore's statement is not that it goes too far, but that it doesn't go far enough.

The conscript is no different from the enlisted soldier. They both offer their bodies up as weapons of the war in fact.

Horetore just likes conscripts because he was one himself. Really, there's no justification for dissociating them in the present respect.

Husar, don't thank me for this post. The sole reason for having a profile here should not be for you to Thank my posts, it makes you look desperate and I might feel forced to show compassion or Thank you myself, disgusting.

:smash:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Just as I try to avoid personal attacks myself, I try not to thank others for handing them out before they get a warning.
And the sole reason for posting a post should not be to receive thanks, it makes you look desperate and I might feel forced to show compassion or throw you some change, disgusting.

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:inquisitive:
Wait are you condeming me specifically or making a general declaration? Assuming the former: I reject the implication that I'm fishing for compliments; I fully believe HoreTore is being an idiot and a combination of mental fatigue and uncertainty of his seriousness makes me unwilling to explain the numerous and obvious reasons he is being an idiot. That I have attracted ire while others doing the same thing have gained reverance is disconcerting enough to require comment.

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Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name

It's because you, like me, take things too serious.

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I am ever in awe of those who can maintain even the facade of optimism and irreverance when discussing backroom matters. At least the ones who do so without seeming stupid or insane.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

:inquisitive:
Wait are you condeming me specifically or making a general declaration? Assuming the former: I reject the implication that I'm fishing for compliments; I fully believe HoreTore is being an idiot and a combination of mental fatigue and uncertainty of his seriousness makes me unwilling to explain the numerous and obvious reasons he is being an idiot. That I have attracted ire while others doing the same thing have gained reverance is disconcerting enough to require comment.

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It's the way you go about it that matters. When you get angry and make serious replies to stupid posts, it makes you seem petty and the very act of engaging with it implies that you are on the same level. When others respond to stupid posts in a much more flippant way, it makes them seem cool and aloof - almost as if they transcend the topic, or that they are too good to engage with it.

You need to learn how to be cool, man. :hippie:

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

:inquisitive:
Wait are you condeming me specifically or making a general declaration? Assuming the former: I reject the implication that I'm fishing for compliments; I fully believe HoreTore is being an idiot and a combination of mental fatigue and uncertainty of his seriousness makes me unwilling to explain the numerous and obvious reasons he is being an idiot. That I have attracted ire while others doing the same thing have gained reverance is disconcerting enough to require comment.

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Are you a beggar? No? Then maybe the throwing some change part was a hint at hyperbole, or maybe it wasn't, confusing.

As for ire and reverance, it's best to be humble in this popularity context. I can't even pull off hyperbole, humor, sarcasm, etc. myself so take it from someone with loads of experience that it is not worth getting worked up over. Just let the other pretend that you are a troll and keep "trolling" them. It's not like talking about an issue makes it go away, it just meakes everyone laugh at you or hate you even more.

Montmorency has a point in that concepts are also volunteers in a way, because there are always other choices, such as working to abolish conscription, accepting the penalty for not going etc. See following statement.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

All my relative who were fit for it enlisted, because they knew they had to expose themselves to the same dangers everyone else was facing.

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Dangers that only existed because people on the other side signed up to kill your relatives. And they only signed up because your older relatives had already signed up to kill them etc.
One world government would solve these problems until we find aliens that sit on a load of oil.

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Originally Posted by Husar

someone who eagerly signed up for an SS death squad

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Indeed.

If a death squad is a squad that deals out death, then what would a suicide squad be?

A Shtrafbat is the closest thing I can come up with.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

They both offer their bodies up as weapons of the war in fact.

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True. However, I am willing to cut the conscripts some slack, seeing as they had more limitations in their choice than others.

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

It's the way you go about it that matters. When you get angry and make serious replies to stupid posts, it makes you seem petty and the very act of engaging with it implies that you are on the same level. When others respond to stupid posts in a much more flippant way, it makes them seem cool and aloof - almost as if they transcend the topic, or that they are too good to engage with it.

You need to learn how to be cool, man. :hippie:

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...Damnit, this again? Ok, fine, I need to suffer fools with less hostility, I get that, but we have Kadagar, total_relism, Fragony and numerous other people popping in and out of this forum saying absurdly offensive and/or stupid things with complete sincerity every other day. I dont mean "trickle down economics work" I mean "women are inferior" kinda stuff. I've come to expect the people I used to consider reasonable turn out seemingly irrational at times, so how am I supposed to know anymore when people aren't being serious about these things when there's no indication of joking?

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

...Damnit, this again? Ok, fine, I need to suffer fools with less hostility, I get that, but we have Kadagar, total_relism, Fragony and numerous other people popping in and out of this forum saying absurdly offensive and/or stupid things with complete sincerity every other day. And by stupid I dont mean "trickle down economics work" I mean "Blacks/women/gays are inferior" kinda stuff. I've come to expect the people I used to consider reasonable turn out seemingly irrational at times, so how am I supposed to know anymore when people aren't being serious about these things when there's no indication of joking?

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The problem is you have stopped being rational and are flying about in a rage lashing out at everybody these days. You need to stand back, take a breath, think about what the other person actually means.

I'll go with the example of the abortion thread. You got enraged by Fragony's comments, which admittedly seem at first glance to be pretty stupid - most obviously when he said that he knew he was being a hypocrite by adopting a position he didn't really believe in. Now, you opted to take his comments in a literal manner, and as a result got angry, instead of thinking about what he actually meant. This is not the best approach when you are dealing with somebody whose English is not perfect, and who generally is quite cryptic in his writing style.

By taking a step back and trying to get where Frags was coming from, I concluded that he meant that while from a scientific perspective and a consideration of the wider issues of the mother's health/rights, he could not articulate an argument against abortion; at a more visceral level (gut-instinct perhaps), he found it to be repulsive. Hence him calling himself a hypocrite. And I think it is fair to say that that is not a stupid position to take.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

...Damnit, this again? Ok, fine, I need to suffer fools with less hostility, I get that, but we have Kadagar, total_relism, Fragony and numerous other people popping in and out of this forum saying absurdly offensive and/or stupid things with complete sincerity every other day. I dont mean "trickle down economics work" I mean "women are inferior" kinda stuff. I've come to expect the people I used to consider reasonable turn out seemingly irrational at times, so how am I supposed to know anymore when people aren't being serious about these things when there's no indication of joking?

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You just don't have the cool-gene.
Accept your genetical inferiority with dignity and take solace in the fact that you deserve a well-paid job as a white male.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

True. However, I am willing to cut the conscripts some slack, seeing as they had more limitations in their choice than others.

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You could have done a million other things. Your distinction is solely made to make you feel better about yourself.

No one here is celebrating the SS death squad member or the Iraqi on acid bath duty. To reduce what this day is to the most depraved in humanity is really telling. There is no point in preaching to the stubborn

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Your distinction is solely made to make you feel better about yourself.

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If that makes you feel better about yourself, sure.

I consider conscription just as worthless as any other kind of service, btw. Still, the peasant conscript hordes of the Tsar did not have much of a say in their situation...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I'll happily honour a conscript; never an enlisted man.

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The wonders of pure idealism.

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Originally Posted by Viking

The wonders of pure idealism.

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Pah.

You're already narrowing it down by limiting the memorial to just soldiers, and not the general populations. If you're going to narrow down the scope, you might as well narrow it down to such a scale that you don't end up celebrating a million dirtbags in the process.

I'll happily honour those soldiers who deserve to be honoured. There have been several good men. There have also been hordes of absolute scum. I'm not honouring those.


And besides - Norway was indeed "pure idealism" during ww1...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Pah.

You're already narrowing it down by limiting the memorial to just soldiers, and not the general populations. If you're going to narrow down the scope, you might as well narrow it down to such a scale that you don't end up celebrating a million dirtbags in the process.

I'll happily honour those soldiers who deserve to be honoured. There have been several good men. There have also been hordes of absolute scum. I'm not honouring those.


And besides - Norway was indeed "pure idealism" during ww1...

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It seemed to me that you were coming from the "if everybody refused to go to war, there would be no war"-angle.

I'm not taking part in any honouring. If I do something, it's typically either because I have to do it, or because I believe it's the right thing to do - and in either case, expecting thanks becomes meaningless, and therefore I am not overly inclined to give them, either.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Pah.

You're already narrowing it down by limiting the memorial to just soldiers, and not the general populations. If you're going to narrow down the scope, you might as well narrow it down to such a scale that you don't end up celebrating a million dirtbags in the process.

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You can't dig yourself out that easily. There have been all sorts of memorials, documentaries, celebrations etc over here relating to the nurses that served on the battlefields, the women who worked the factories, etc.

Why can't you just honour the bravery and sacrifice of millions of ordinary people?

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Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr

You can't dig yourself out that easily. There have been all sorts of memorials, documentaries, celebrations etc over here relating to the nurses that served on the battlefields, the women who worked the factories, etc.

Why can't you just honour the bravery and sacrifice of millions of ordinary people?

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If you see the first for what it was, an escalation of total stupidity, it ain't that a weird position to take. Who is to blame is another matter, nobody really knows what started it really. But those who enlisted volunteered to kill, and it was kinda cool to kill, the jolly good war, you can at least call people who enlisted incredibly naive. Naivity is the best quality you can have but you are still an idiot. Horetore ain't far off if you ask me. Bit brutal, but not wrong.

"There have been several good men. There have also been hordes of absolute scum." I will reverse the proportion.
The men from my village had probably the same proportion of scums, villains than other villages in deep France. By the way, villain was the names of farmers/peasants during the Middle-Ages.
I don't think they deserve your scorn/epitaph.
They were just humans beings, working in not that comfortable conditions, earning from a land made of clay and stones (due to geological factor as old glaciers just ending here and there) at the end of the 19 century start of the 20th.

They were workers, peasants and soldiers, mostly peasants.

They were not hordes, and certainly not absolute scum. Poaching would have probably the main sin of their lives.
You are pushing too far in your statement, made by arrogance. I am French, I am supposed to be a master in arrogance.
Go back to a better understanding of what is honoring the dead. It is not to say the war was good. Not to say you agree with it.

It is just a humble acknowledgement that their lives were cut short by machine-guns, artillery and then the Spanish fever.

I.... feel them, for them, when I walked in my childhood landscape because they had the same, we share this. The mist above the lakes, the river running along the hills, the trees murmuring with the wind, dragon flies flying near the surface, the sun light on the waves made by the stream and the flashing of the fishes, the wild boar crossing the snowy fields, the dear coming to drink few meters from you, you who stay still, not daring blinking. The silence of the warm night in July and the sound of the northern wind in December, the 200 years old tree that saw them, and me.
I have their DNA, some were cousins, potential ones, some could have been my grand-grand parents if the bullets had been few millimeters left or right. They are now just names on a monument, blackened by pollution, barely maintained by the town hall of a around 1000 inhabitants village.
Can't you feel their humanity?

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Originally Posted by drone

Short war then. ~;)

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~D

Since I must apparently add three or more characters, this is a great thread with some interesting posts. WW1 is one of my favourite "chapters of history" even though my country pretty much sat on its ass during the whole ordeal.

On honoring conscripts vs. enlisted men: I think it's a bit foolish to desire a strong state with comprehensive social programs but then look down upon those who would willingly volunteer to defend it.

When you look at the way occupied countries are treated during wartime, it's hard not to justify the desire to enlist. Even if one's government doesn't have its citizens' best interests at heart, at times it becomes necessary to defend it in order to defend your family and community.

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Originally Posted by Viking

It seemed to me that you were coming from the "if everybody refused to go to war, there would be no war"-angle.

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I am a fan of that Tolstoj line, yes.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I am a fan of that Tolstoj line, yes.

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That's the idealism. If one side is willing to fight, a logically correct line will not save anyone.

It's typically heads of states and governments that start wars, so that might be a better point of focus - not the least because there are considerably fewer heads of states around than there are soldiers.

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Originally Posted by Viking

That's the idealism. If one side is willing to fight, a logically correct line will not save anyone.

It's typically heads of states and governments that start wars, so that might be a better point of focus - not the least because there are considerably fewer heads of states around than there are soldiers.

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That, however, was not Tolstoj's argument in War and Peace. Sorry for being a quote-tease, but I've searched the intertubez for the relevant section and found nothing. And I'm not going to break open that tome again.... A good read though, if you've got a decade to spare.

Anyway, I don't see where I have diverted any blame from hawkish heads of state. Would you care to point out where I have done so? Still, they could not have done so if not for the willingness of their soldiers(as Tolstoj noted).

At the end of the day, I consider a soldier to be a profession like any other. Like, say, working in advertising. And just like advertising, I see no point to their work, and I do not want it. I see them as a drain of resources better spent elsewhere, who contribute nothing of what I want.

Further, days like these do not celebrate sacrifice and losses in war. It celebrates very specific sacrifices in war. And it just so happens that the sacrifices celebrated is not one I find any point in celebrating, I see it as a simple celebration of militarism. It contributes to the aura of grandeur surrounding those in the military. The hero-worship makes it much harder to hand out proper punishment for war crimes(he's a hero, shut your mouth!).

Where is the day celebrating all those who lost their lives sabotaging the war effort in their own countries during ww1? Those are the people I would like to celebrate.

Remember Erik Gjems-Onstad, Viking. A truly despicable creature, but his war-time service has made it a lot harder for people to see what scum he was.

He awarded Benjamin Hermansens murderer, Ole Nicolai Kvisler, a large sum of money for his "contribution to maintaining racial purity in Norway".

When the bugger finally died, I saw plenty of people express their sorrow in social media, for the loss of a "great hero". A man who funds nazi murderers is a hero in this country, because he fought in a war.

I spit on his grave.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

At the end of the day, I consider a soldier to be a profession like any other. Like, say, working in advertising. And just like advertising, I see no point to their work, and I do not want it. I see them as a drain of resources better spent elsewhere, who contribute nothing of what I want.

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Theoretically, all jobs are redundant. If everybody could just behave properly and do the right things, we could get rid of the police - and the state, too.

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Further, days like these do not celebrate sacrifice and losses in war. It celebrates very specific sacrifices in war. And it just so happens that the sacrifices celebrated is not one I find any point in celebrating, I see it as a simple celebration of militarism. It contributes to the aura of grandeur surrounding those in the military. The hero-worship makes it much harder to hand out proper punishment for war crimes(he's a hero, shut your mouth!).

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I guess. I take issue with most kind of themed days, as they do not encourage critical thinking. "Let's have a Human Rights Day, where we feel sorry for tortured souls and good about our enlightened selves, falling asleep perhaps a shallow insight or two smarter than the day before - insights carefully selected by others".

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Remember Erik Gjems-Onstad, Viking. A truly despicable creature, but his war-time service has made it a lot harder for people to see what scum he was.

He awarded Benjamin Hermansens murderer, Ole Nicolai Kvisler, a large sum of money for his "contribution to maintaining racial purity in Norway".

When the bugger finally died, I saw plenty of people express their sorrow in social media, for the loss of a "great hero". A man who funds nazi murderers is a hero in this country, because he fought in a war.

I spit on his grave.

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Nothing unique. Think of aid programmes for poorer countries. Undoubtedly, they'll benefit thousands of murderers, rapists and other despicable people, while organisations and TV ads prefer to turn the entire population into suffering angels, for a moment.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

...I spit on his grave...

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A grave is indeed a worthy adversary.

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Originally Posted by Viking

I guess. I take issue with most kind of themed days, as they do not encourage critical thinking. "Let's have a Human Rights Day, where we feel sorry for tortured souls and good about our enlightened selves, falling asleep perhaps a shallow insight or two smarter than the day before - insights carefully selected by others".

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Yes, this.

I don't put on pants before 3 o'clock on the 17th of May either. These days are really not my thing.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

If that makes you feel better about yourself, sure.

I consider conscription just as worthless as any other kind of service, btw. Still, the peasant conscript hordes of the Tsar did not have much of a say in their situation...

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The point is not that they signed up or were conscripted, the point is that they died.

By your own accounts you were a piss-poor soldier, so maybe you didn't get the memo but soldiers don't die for flags or causes, they dies for each other and that is what Armistice Day is about. It is for the survivors to honour the fallen, those who survived are generally around because of those who didn't.

You're being a jerk, you made a nasty (yes nasty) throw away comment about all those young boys (not men) who thought they were doing the right thing a hundred years ago and died as a result. This was not a topic for debate, this was those of us who feel sympathy to express that.

You've managed to soil it and make quite a few people angry - I hope you're happy with that because I'm bleeding well not.

The concept of Armistice day was created by the survivors against the bombastic "celebrations" politicians liked to have who were generally a long way from the sharp end of the war - at worst.

Most soldiers join to protect their country and often are too young to realise that defensive, just wars are in the minority. But theirs is not to reason why, theirs is but to do and die.

From the comfort of my office, where the worst thing that tends to happen is a corrupt powerpoint file the least I can do is remember the sacrifice they made - not the political objective that served.

~:smoking:

In that case, one should also mind to remember the enemy's sacrifice.

That's an idea. At least nominally, it promotes international solidarity.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

In that case, one should also mind to remember the enemy's sacrifice.

That's an idea. At least nominally, it promotes international solidarity.

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My original post, if you will recall, did just that as well as what rory suggested.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

My original post, if you will recall, did just that as well as what rory suggested.

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Please don't get me wrong, I do not want to fight over this, but that is not exactly the impression I usually get from sentences like this:

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Today is the day set aside by many countries, at least in the West, to honor their military veterans.

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It sounds a lot like (and I think that is actually the case as well) most countries just honour their own veterans.
I rarely if ever see Americans post about how the brave Japanese signed up to sacrifice themselves for their country and how they deserve everyone's respect for that.

As someone who grew up learning how horrible his country was and who watched enough hollywood movies, I do actually have a sense of gratefulness towards Americans and that they liberated Europe from Hitler and his cronies.
As someone who learned even more, I also appreciate the efforts of Russian soldiers.
And as a German I also feel like quite a few of our soldiers died thinking they were doing the right thing.

But apart from Wehraboos, nazi-fans and Sturmfront readers one gets the impression that most Americans only care about the sacrifices of their own soldiers and maybe those of their anglo-allies. 50 years of cold war and current events seem to have eroded any support for other allies they may have had and apart from Hitler-mentions or making fun of Merkel NSA affairs, Germany seems hardly noteworthy for most, the aforementioned fringe groups excluded.

I'm aware that my perspective may be skewed as I have never been to the USA sadly, but this is the impression I get over these data tubes. It has a certain logic of course, why would people of the greatest, most just country in the world care about anyone else after all?
And I can't claim that France or even all Germans are very different.

I just find it hard to buy that most people actually care about soldiers and their sacrifice if they're not soldiers from close to home. In quite a few cases they might rather worship their own war criminals than care about a guy from farther away who only had good intentions when he signed up. I won't mind if you prove me wrong as I don't think I painted a nice picture here. ~;)

I think you're right. We all care about those that defend us and ours, not really that bothered about those, who at the end of the day were actively trying to kill our ancestors.

And the victors were always the good guys as they write the histories - why the Nazis are treated so much worse than the Soviets whose acts of genocide were pretty close and Bomber Harris got lauded for his acts and not damned for removing the armour plating from the bombers and of course carpet bombing non-military targets.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Please don't get me wrong, I do not want to fight over this, but that is not exactly the impression I usually get from sentences like this:

It sounds a lot like (and I think that is actually the case as well) most countries just honour their own veterans.
I rarely if ever see Americans post about how the brave Japanese signed up to sacrifice themselves for their country and how they deserve everyone's respect for that.

As someone who grew up learning how horrible his country was and who watched enough hollywood movies, I do actually have a sense of gratefulness towards Americans and that they liberated Europe from Hitler and his cronies.
As someone who learned even more, I also appreciate the efforts of Russian soldiers.
And as a German I also feel like quite a few of our soldiers died thinking they were doing the right thing....

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I tried to include one of the German poems of that era (and would have posted a link in German had one been forwarded to me) so as to NOT make it an exclusively US or even "allied" attitude. However vehemently I may have disagreed with their cause, their leadership, or even some of the values of their respective cultures (and knowing this sentiment may even be mirrored by the "other" side), ALL of those veterans served at the behest of their communities doing what they thought fit in the defense of their community and its interests. THAT I honor. That includes those Germans who tried so desperately to pull off in win in the Spring of 1918 before American numbers could be felt as well as those French who fought so steadfastly at Verdun. It includes those Germans who fought the Allies as they invaded Germany because they were defending Germany -- even when they themselves hated Nazism. It includes the brave defenders of Iwo Jima every bit as much as the Marines who took that first bit of Japanese soil away from the empire. I even hold a grudging respect for those who have taken up arms in our "War on Terror" to defend hearth and home from a foreign occupier -- even as I decry those who slaughter non-combatants in a calculated act of terror.

In this, I separate the politics and events that engendered these conflicts -- while calling on respect for the one commonality of most of those who fought -- their service.