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Psychiatrists aren't allowed to share information with third parties. How far should that go, the pilot was considered unfit to fly, but his employers didn't know that. So it could have been prevented. Where to draw the line? There will probably a commision asking the same question but I am interested in your gut-feelings.
Surely this dilemma could be avoided by requiring 2 people to be in the cockpit at all times?
Not necesarily in planes, there are all sorts of professions that have huge responsibities
If those third parties are likely to be hurt, I think it is the shrink's duty to forestall it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
You could put a burden of proof on the pilot, requiring him to hand over a doctor's statement that he's sane every year.
I suspect something like this was in place, but that this tragedy slipped through the cracks so to speak.
I'm completely ignorant on the whole thing, but if the psychiatrist thought the man was unfit then he should've alerted the authorities, I believe they are allowed to do that if they suspect potential harm (at least from my experience).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Here are the guidelines in the United Kingdom when it comes to the DVLA: http://www.gmc-uk.org/Confidentialit...f_58821800.pdf
I assume it would be similar when it comes to pilots. Though it is likely that an air company has an occupational health department which does this and would send a report to the line manager if they are unfit.
But to answer some comments in thread:
"The driver is legally responsible for informing the DVLA or DVA about such a condition or treatment."
It is pilots responsibility to inform, primarily.
Those are the rules but a planecrash is the reality, I am still not convinced that this wasn't just an accident, it looks like it wasn't, guy was depressed, was a convert, but the flew of six hours later than it should have because of untill now unknown reasons. That's the technical part but I would like to see a broader discussion, when should a shrink break the oath of not informing third parties when there crearly is a risk. I don't know, just taking this planecrash doesn't does the question justice, he could also have worked in a train or a bus.
How far should this docter-patient relationship go before it could could go really really wrong?
A problem I see is that psychiatry is a very new science, and definitely not even close to fully understood...
I don't have much respect for the psychiatry, to be honest... So I wouldn't like to put too much faith in them.
Also, there is the problem with that people would then have a reason to LIE to the doctor... In fear of losing his job... Alternatively not contact them at all. And that could cause other problems in the long run.
That is indeed a big concern. Public trust in the profession is paramount, otherwise, they would not be able to help people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
Yeah if people can't trust their shrink the results could be even worse because they just won't ask for the help they really need. I am really torn really. Ending that trust could do more harm than good.
What the hell is your problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Was he?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
I mean... if he wasn't then yes, that comment was rather moronic...
Spot on. This is why guidiance is that they inform the relevant authorities first, before the confidentiality is broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Read again. I have insinuated absolutily nothing. Like the guy holding a toy at the Ukraine planecrash, things aren't always what it seem. The internet was exploding and politicians were banging drums, and they all got it wrong in hindsight. It wasn't a trophy, it was 'look at this'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
It may have been both, but you choose to present is as a choice, like "look at this" couldn't have been followed by "I'll keep it".Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
To put it in perspective, there were over a hundred Dutch citizens on that plane and a lot of was said that turned out to be bullshit, who shot it down is still not clear (to us civilians at least), but people drew their conclusions on the behaviour of the guys at the crashsite way too fast, In any case, that plane shouldn't have been flying over a warzone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
You do the same. People have a right for their own conclusions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Not if the conclusions are based on anything premature. As it looks the plane was shot down by seperatists, but there is nothing that says it wasn't just a mistake. Same for this crash in France, that plane was kept on the ground for six hours because of technical problems, maybe there was never any intention to crash it. Looks like it was intentional but it could also be just circumstances. Possibly irresponsible decisions where the mental breakdown the pilot suffered comes in handy? Who knows, I don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
Sometimes conclusions "on a hunch" turn out to be the most relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
It is both - it was shot down by separatists, but they didn't mean to shoot down a passenger plane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Well, seems like it's high time to come with some sources.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
I have my own problems with Islam, but that's a debate for another time and place. Why are you trying to make some messed-up political statement over the death of all these people? It's disgusting.
I don't think they did it on purpose. Wrong time wrong place. Especially wrong place, other airlines avoided Ukrainian airspace. Somebody has a lot to answer for as it was well known that these weapon-systems were there as things are turning out, the Ukranian government informed them way in advance they were there but the Dutch government never passed the information to airliners. Another developing story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
Why do you pick out one sentence out of my post to make your own. I tried to relativate things, you see the word islam and suffer leftist reflexes, you can't read the rest anymore, cognitive dissonance they call it in psychology.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
I voted VVD in the last elections:DDD
Interesting you're using terminology from psychology while simultaneously bashing. No, you're making an unfounded statement and I called you out on it. You've delivered no sources as at all. You've dragged islam into a discussion again without there being any indication whatsoever that it had anything to do with this.
So let me ask you again: what the hell is your problem?
You not being able to read
Their purpose was to bring down a Ukrainian plane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
A miliitary cargo-plane as I understand, one was taken out that hight before apparently. I don't know anyone who died there, only indirectly. There are all sorts of talk-groups and there seems to be no grudge, only sorrow. A lot of questions remain as the Ukrainian government warned the Dutch authorities that this could happen way in advance. But alas, a lot of people dead, no bringing them back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
I would say any plane flying over their territory. The separatists couldn't imagine that there could be other than Ukrainian plane above them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Yeah, I don't get the feeling anybody is angry over this over here. It's tragic, that's all. The guys who pressed the buttons are probably devestated and I hope they can come to terms with just having made a mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
edit, even calling it a mistake is wrong, they just can't be blamed for this at all.
Let's also remember the guy who pulled the trigger was most likely ordered to do so...
I give it an EXTREMELY high chance that it was a complete blunder... Mainly because neither side had anything to win from it.
Ya, I hope they know that nobody is angry at them here.
so edgy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
So true, you pick out something and your mind makes something out of it that was never actually said, a single sentence blocked every other. That is a known shield. Read back my post again, there is nothing to get upset about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hax
Gentlmen, we have a specific ukraine thread for a reason. :whip:
Not true. Everybody knows it most likely was a mistake, but even so plenty of people consider the separatists and Putin, personally, culpable for the disaster. With ample justification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
What was "never actually said"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
You literally wrote that the guy was a convert. Maybe you miswrote and meant something differently, but that's how I and most others read your post.
Simply meant what it could look like but didn't have to be.
How is that not your fault?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Because it isn't, it's what is expected I think. Can't help that as it's not my way reasoning, but expected nonetheless. I have made no insinsunations whatsoever. Other people could, by now I am pretty sure it was intentional but I never ruled out that it was just accident. Seems it wasn't. I did absolutily nothing wrong. And I am still not doing anything wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrossLOPER
I said something but I might have meant something else, it's not my fault if people think I meant what I said.
What?
That sounds like it could be off of "Yes, Minister".
Pretty funny, admittedly.