BETA TESTERS

If all goes well, I'll get a beta-install ready for the weekend. I think I've managed to play every faction in RoP to victory, but of course this has been done at different stages of development. I can only test-play at the expense of development time, so a few beta-testers would come in handy.

The beta release will not be public, but anyone who is interested can PM me with their email, and once it's ready they will be able to grab a copy. I might set some 'homework' in terms of factions I need to be looked at first :book2:

So far I have a list of one two three:

• Dimitrios the Samian, whose first task will be to play the Ionians :2thumbsup:
• Western, well, we need someone to start at the opposite end of the map, too, so how about the Gandharans?
• Leith, clearly has an affinity with the hoplite class, so a choice of Sparta, Athens or Argos
  

Just to be clear: the install will require a clean copy of MTW:VI, v2.01

Awesome Mac .... Samos is/was Ionian back in the Ancient days .
cheers

Exactly :yes:

I thought your local knowledge would help :laugh4:

:thumbsup:

Good news, Macsen! Count me in! (Please choose an interesting faction for me to try):yes:

Stand by your emails in about 5-6 hours ~:smoking:

That's good to hear, Mac! However I will be in bed then :no: Anyway I won't be able to do much before tomorrow's evening. That said, I am quite pleased I will spend a whole evening tomorrow playing Eastern Empires :laugh4:

The original plan was for me to finish this off over the weekend, then decided it was time to draw a line and get it out so the beta-team had some weekend left to get started :2thumbsup:

I know the custom battles aren't fully squared up yet - it's just a tedious job I haven't got round to yet...

The file is currently uploading. When it's done, you'll all receive an invite from wetransfer.com to downlaod it. My mobile internet connection is a bit slow tonight, so can't be sure when it'll be ready.

THINGS TO LOOK FOR:

• Please start with the factions listed above, this allows for fastest 'discovery' of the map between everyone
• I know I said dead bodies were fixed, but it turns out not to be 100% - please make a note of any units you spot not leaving bodies behind (I'm close to finding them all, but more eyes will help narrow down to where it's breaking down)
• ALEX is included, fully playable, but is not complete by a long way - I'm actively working on that - feel free to play it, but it's not beta-test material yet.
• Please keep an eye on neighbouring factions - especially note whether Greek factions are building the AGORA and how soon into the game - if you can afford to send out agents to check, so much the better
• If you should suffer any CTDs, please let me know the circumstances (though I've only had the sort of CTDs I get when playing Vanilla - eg if the game's been running for quite a few hours or I get an audio problem....)
• Make sure you set the 'non-critical messages' flag when you begin, as I just realised it doesn't have all the coloured info-pics (because I always turn off non-critical messages and never see them myself, and forget they even exist....)
• Above all, have fun :2thumbsup:

EDIT: Successfully uploaded, check your inbox :2thumbsup:

Downloaded smoothly ..
Well done Mac ,I'll install it on Sunday & begin my Ionian campaign .
Notes will be taken & updates done in the coming days .
cheers

[IMG]https://i1268.photobucket.com/albums...psjfnpnbws.jpg[/IMG]

OK - I'm attempting to post a screenshot of the Medes having been done over by the Gandharans. The year is 206 and I have a lot of money. Played on hard and was never short of money - I could build/recruit in every province every turn, which I think is a bit too easy. I made straight for the coast at the outset, only to discover that Hindush has no trade goods so that was a waste of time. I churned out huge numbers of pretty low grade troops (the best available as I teched up, but I never got teched up very far). The Medes sensibly gathered a huge 4 stack army in their capital province and came for me, but got a bit stuck in Parthia while I danced around them, took less guarded provinces and started a Median civil war. I never had to fight that main army - just call me spear-Guderian. So:

- stability good. I had one startmap crash around 182 when I captured (on auto) a Median castle. Reloaded,played a bit different and it crashed again at the same point. Reloaded a second time and before I could pin down exactly who and where was crashing, I was past it. No more crashes. I will have to be a bit quicker next time with pinning down, but the stability over about 40 turns is good

- AI good. The Median armies were better quality than mine and the AI was doing the right thing in battle and on the strat map until it got stuck. I wonder if there are a few too many connections between provinces? The 4-way junction between Carmania, Drangiana, Parthia and Gedrosia allowed me to dance round the Parthia road block. Should Drangiana and Carmania be connected when they barely touch? Babylon was spreading via sea movement along the Persian Gulf, which was interesting. I abandoned the sea when I couldn't make any money from it. Media was building fair sized fleets on the Caspian and heading north (away from me). This is pretty ahistorical and not good for gameplay so you might want to make a bit harder

- visually good. The only thing I really didn't like was the dead elephants which looked like massive cowpats (it didn't help that they died on a bridge and everyone else then had to climb over the brobdinagian cowpats)

- one day you/we might want to clean up the map a bit so province boundaries stand out more. This is really being fussy, but there are a fair few Alexandrias we could get rid of since they wont be created for several centuries yet.

That was a rush through just to get a feel. I will play other factions and post more detailed thoughts. Congrats on creating a really fun game!

Thanks, Western - that's a great report - certainly seems like you've learnt how to drive Gandhara pretty quickly :2thumbsup:

I haven't seen any dead elephants since I sorted out (most of) the deadpage, so will have to take a look see how they can be improved.

re the economy - yes, it can be easy for humans, but unfortunately the AI still manages to starve to death, so bit of a quandry there.

re the crashes - do you remember the province? And did it involve a Median royal? I do sometimes get crashes after a king is killed in a siege assault, even in vanilla, but if it's something we can track down and squash, so much the better

I'll also take a look at those borders around Drangiana - those corner-corner ones could be closed off, perhaps.

re all the Alexandrias - the map was chosen for its relevance to the Alexander campaign, and will also be extended into the Diadochi era, so the anachronisms for Rise of Persia are a by-product of that. Being as new maps are a lot of work (and I haven't got back up to speed on that side of things yet) I'm regarding it as a necessary compromise....

And trade goods in Hindush -- this is exactly why I need beta-testers -- I still haven't got around to putting ivory into the trade goods. It's in the 'to do' list, waiting to be done. By the way, did you find the sea route to Egypt?

The Caspian is bugging me - it is really useful to have a couple of ships there for the short-cut between north and south, but some factions just take Hyrcania and spam ships there until they go bankrupt (Persia, I'm looking at you!)

Nice to see your LUKUP map in the corner - seems like history has evolved differently to any of my games. I've also found AI-Gandhara canbe very unpredictable. Often see it just sitting in the home province with wads of cash and few troops, but in the last game I tried it had taken Hindush and Syrastrene in about 15 years...

[IMG]https://i1268.photobucket.com/albums...psj5cmz3fh.jpg[/IMG]

The family are away so I had another go! This time I knew what I was doing so I won a bit quicker - but it was tougher at first. I rushed ahead and actually lost early in second attempt because rebels in Hindush were really good. I faced 3 successive rebellions, all with varied and good troops, and managed to lose both king and heir in a final attempt to crush them - score 1 to the AI. So what I have posted is attempt 3. Good rebels are rare, so this was a real plus. I met good rebels again later in Albania and the most eastererly Indian province - so not just Hindush.

Also I fought on 2 maps in Hindush that looked new to me - a river joining the sea, with 2x interesting terrain. And later in Albania I think that might have been a new map too - a mountain pass. The old maps get tired so, if I'm right, new, less generic maps are a really good feature.

Again, the Medes spammed ships on the Caspian, which helped me. But it's also interesting and pleasing how different this second (we won't count the early defeat!) playthrough was. Persia got going this time. And those Babylonians were crazy for sea movement as the minimap shows - they got everywhere except the Persian Gulf, where they went last time.

The Medes were resilient and hard to kill. They ended up as 2 lively halves - one east of Caspian and one north of Bactria. I had to pause and recruit to finish them off, so certainly no pushover. (I think it helped them when they lost their shipbuilding province on the Caspian!)

No crashes at all. Noticed 3 units with no dead bodies - my bodyguard, Isvasa and Median camels. Also I should say a lot of the units are really fresh - the cards may look like traditional MTW, but the units they refer to usually are not.

Good to hear you're having fun with it - that's the real acid test, I guess :yes:

It's really interesting to see how different the north-west corner of the map is in your two campaigns as well. The Babylonians like their Phoenician Warships, and seem to ALWAYS take Iberia in my games.

I have had bit of a play with with the 'rebel troop mix' column, and it looks like it's paying off for the effort. On one of my Greek campaigns I let slip my iron control of 'Aetolia' and was duly rewarded with a stack of Theban Sacred Band, Athenian Hoplites and Enomotia hoplites (can't remember now if it was rebels or loyalists, though...). I had to hide in the castle and counterattack with reinforcements next turn. Makes a change from the big stacks of slingers that usually crop up in the original HTW rebel mix.

On the battle maps, most of them are from HTW, but I think there are a few of my own in there still. Certainly the one that comes up for Lower Egypt (at least for sea invasions) is mine - and it defeated my Athenian army recently - they basically died of exhaustion and couldn't catch all the rebels before timing out. But I still reckon the HTW battle maps are the best I've seen in any mod that I've tried. (You might have noticed I messed up a bit when I originally ported in the HTW maps, and the castles especially can throw up quite the wrong mini-panorama image before battles - I need to sort it all out, but it is a humungous job...)

Re the unit icons, there are still quite a few placeholders in there, but I have a list. I'd really like to get my hands on GDS again, I found that the easiest way to do the battle LBMs. UP works, but I'll only have thirty uses in shareware mode, and PSP will expire after 30 days - and it also fails to index properly. I've forgotten all the old tricks from before my last PC died :shame: Looks like I'm going to have to save up a big wodge of BMPs and do a massive conversion session to save on UP uses.

And noted on the dead bodies - looks like the hitch is well down in the unit_prod, so should be able to pin it down in the morning now.

I'm surprised how well the Egyptians do, considering how weak a lot of their units are - if you fancy a change of scenery, they're worth a play, and there are features I've implemented which need a second pair of eyes on them.

And with that, I'd better turn in, it's gone 3am again....

Hi guys! I have played the Athenians for a hundred turns and here are my observations:

1-The Spartans and the Argives were very passive. They both built a couple of full unit stacks and then stopped doing except offering to ally with me and with each other. At one point the Spartans had at least 8-9 units of Spartan hoplites who could have taken out the Argives easily but instead they remained passive all the way.

2-The Macedonians attacked and tried to expand but were eventually crushed by the Lydians and the Illyrians. At least they tried!

3-The Agora's review panel is black.

4-The Egyptians lost after round 30 turns because the king died and had no heirs! However after a while they re-emerged and dominated the map.

5-The unit icons really need some work! The same icons are given to multiple units,e.g Theben, Athenian and Argive hoplites have the same uninspiring icon.

6-Unit animations are the same with one exception but I'm hoping this will change with the final release and with the completion of the unit roster,

Overall I had fun but I would have had more if the Ai had been more active. The game has been very stable with no crashes at all.

Thanks for that, Leith

1) It seems about 2 out of 3 games they are like that - occasionally aggressive, but often quite passive. If the Spartans have 8 or 9 units of Spartan Hoplites, then they are bankrupt, so you'd expect them to be desperate to grab more income... I'll try a starting attitude of 'expansionist' instead of 'isolationist' for Sparta, but doubt it will make much difference - after all, the Argives start as 'expansionist' and Athens is set to 'naval expansionist', but AI behaviours change throughout the game.

2) Macedonia/Illyria/Thrace make an interesting threesome up there in the corner - you never know which one will come out on top...

3) Umm. That's weird - shows up fine in my beta re-install - let's wait to see how Dimitrios fares with the Ionians, he'll need to build one too. Might be an MTW version or hardware issue? Might be worth seeing if you can open it up with BifReader and see how it looks to you there?

4) That's just careless of them, they start with two princes in the pipeline :laugh4:

5) Yes, as mentioned to Western, some are placeholders, some still just have the HTW icons, but I have a list for what needs updating once I have all the tools sorted.

6) Animations are in hand, given the very few folders we have left :2thumbsup:

Good news about the stability and I'm sure by the time it's 'finished' (haha, mods are never 'finished'....) the AI could perk up a bit.

Thanks for the report, some useful stuff coming in to keep me busy next week :2thumbsup:

[IMG]https://i1268.photobucket.com/albums...psazrd17b2.jpg[/IMG]

In the pic above there is something wrong with the Babylonian army in Susiana (their last province). Whether I invade from Media or Babylonia, and regardless of which troops I invade with, the result is the same: strat map moves are taken and we flick through the kings: the last one lights up (Media) and then long pause, message "working" and then crash. We never get as far as the battle loading up. I don't know how to use the command cheats on steam, so I can't become Babylon and go into the army to look at its composition (is there a way)?

That aside, playing as Egypt was fun. I had no other crashes and an epic struggle to extinguish the Babylonian fleets, but

- too much money so I can always build everything
- I couldn't get the Red Sea to give me any sea trade
- Aramea provides a very easy desert back door into Babylon. I fatally wounded Babylon early on by taking a huge army thru lightly defended desert provinces and catching Babylon before it was ready. Bit of an exploit and I would bt tempted to break the connection between Aramea and Nabatea so you have to footslog along the coast as various pharoahs attempted: none of them ever found a back door to Babylon
- do you need to have the Medean camels available through north africa and judaea? Seems a bit odd and there are alternative local camel units available
- would be good to give Cyrenaica a greek character. It was intermittently an independent greek kingdom at this time, with a fortune founded on the now extinct silphium, which would make a unique trade good!
- you mentioned trade with Egypt. I didn't encounter that as India, nor the reverse as Egypt. I imagine it's a building localised to those provinces, but I had a quick look in building descriptions and couldn't see anything there. It would be a nice bit of colour (and make both Persian Gulf and Red Sea more worthwhile fighting for access to). I'm sure it's there and I'm just missing it.

Hope that's all helpful. Let me know if there is any way (on steam) to get into that Babylonian army. I have the game saved just in case.

I should have taken fog of war off so you could see whole map. Here it is. The Gandharans are doing OK without me and interestingly the Caspian is empty!

[IMG]https://i1268.photobucket.com/albums...psvtfzu9bt.jpg[/IMG]

Thanks, Western, more good stuf in there!

First off, I don't even know what Steam is, let alone anything about it :shrug:

OK re the crash... I can't imagine what it would be, but at that point it's often a building or something in the province you are about to invade - but it looks like you can see into the province with your watchtower, so that can't be it this time. Are you able to see all the units in the stacks without it crashing? It can't be a facshield issue as all the folders are safe now the factions are up to FN_20 only.... hmmm :inquisitive: When you say the battle doesn't load up, do you mean you don't even get as far as the pre-battle parchment?

I think you've made a good case to turn down the starting treasury - I'll try that out to see how things go.

You need to keep looking very closely at the sea around Arabia ~;) And make sure you have deep-sea ships.

Re Aramaea - probably a good idea, though better would be to split Aramaea into two provinces with no connection between them... I'll mull it over. After all, Babylon was often invaded by Aramaeans etc. But that would mean changing the map, which I don't want to do yet...

Cyrenaica does have a tinge of Greekiness to it, but you only see it in high era unless you are playing a Greek faction :book2:

Median Camels aren't available there - they need the Khorasan Highway to train them, and that can only be built in the correct provinces. I could set the region requirements in the unit_prod so they don't show up on the building info parchments elsewhere, though.

Yep, you're missing something - see above :bow:

What did you think of the Egyptian temple system, by the way?

OK, I remembered how to do the -ian switch and get into those Babylonian armies. My crash in 179 is a completely reliable crash, relating to the battle but happening even before the pre-battle screen comes up, and happening whether I invade Susiana as the Egyptians or the Persians - I must have made it crash 30 times while I experimented with different units. In the end it turns out - very surprisingly - that it is the babylonian heavy missile slingers who are causing the crash: 2 units of slingers, and if they are included (even just one of them) there is always a crash; if they are disbanded before I end turn, never a crash.

There is nothing wrong with the unit per se. I've gone back to the start and fought battles with them fine. My theory is that something about their dismountable nature makes the computer unable to decide where to put them in the reinforcement order and so it crashes when it is trying to present that pre-battle screen including reinforcement order. So it only becomes a problem when - as here - you've got 30 plus units, requiring the surplus to be placed in reinforcement tables in quality order. To test that, I disbanded enough units for the slingers to be in the opening line up with no reinforcements - and bingo, no crash. Ditto no crash when I do an attack out of Susiana with a smallish army including heavy missile slingers.

Are they actually dismountable? The unit-prod says so, but in battle they don't behave as though they are (no "change battle mode" option).

This whole idea of infantry dismounting to be other infantry is new and I'm not sure any mod has tried it for real rather than in theory. If I'm right about the slingers, we may need to look at other infantry:infantry instances of dismounting to see if they have the same issue.

I stand corrected on the Median camels - I never tried to build them, just noticed I kept getting messages that they were available in my African provinces.

I didn't really investigate egyptian temples. I noticed they were worth building because of big morale bonuses, but didn't look into it more than that. I will do so next time. And thanks for the pointers re India-Egypt trade.

Re money, I offer as an idea a really simple change I use in various mods to prevent money getting too plentiful. We all know money gets more and more abundant as the game goes on, so I have a tech penalty built into the build_prod file (call it maintenance or whatever). The castle line is labelled as giving cathedral income, and given minus value income so that as you step up you get an increased penalty (12 steps, so say a sliding scale from -25 through to -300). I think it's better than reducing starting income, because a tech penalty tends to penalise the human player more (inveterate builders) and it deals with the late game riches problem. It's really easy to do - just a set of minus numbers in one column of one row of build_prod.

Interested in your thoughts on my heavy slingers and dismounting theory. It isn't so easy to test definitively because you would need to engineer a big clash of two armies with reinforcements, both before and after changing the unit prod. But regardless of that, it's a plain fact that I can't "dismount" the heavy slingers even though the unit prod suggests I should be able to.

Hi Western,

Lots to think about in that post.....

First off, I'd say the idea of putting negative cathedral bonuses on castles has legs and well worth a look :2thumbsup: Though I might try it on other buildings too....

Re the slingers - that is totally :furious3:ing weird !!!

I've not encountered any trouble with 'dismountable' infantry at all, and I have used quite a lot in my mods to date, such as Tribal Spears/Tribal Missile Spears, Heavy/Light Slingers, Nakhtu-aa Heavy Infantry/Nakhtu-aa Javelin Infantry, and various Roman units 'dismountable' to use pila, to name the few that come to mind through the fog of a few pints of Marston's Pedigree ~:cheers: And PMTW uses this a lot as well - the term 'dismount' is a real misnomer, because the original MTW only foresaw people getting off their horses, which is why I borrowed Cegorach's terminology and went for 'Can change battle mode'.

It really shouldn't be an issue as the AI NEVER dismounts. I'm perturbed by the fact you saw no 'Change battle mode' option, they really should be able to change mode. Weirder and weirder..... (bear in mind the unit_prod calls the heavies 'LT_slingers' because I never got around to changing the HTW terminology... can I confirm they were definitely heavies with the darker tunics, and not the lights with the lighter tunics on the review panel icons?)

Hmmmmm, I'm getting more and more mystified by this. Could it be differences in MTW versions, or thie Steam thingy? As you have an Egyptian campaign, can you check the Nakhtu-aa guys, and see if they dismount properly? Have you had any other 'dismount' trouble?

Egyptian temples also give titles, and it's where Egyptians get their agents from, as I removed brothels from that morally upright civilization...



Come to think of it, could you email me the .cpg file, then I can find out a bit more?

Hello Macsen & other guys ...
Im itching to load up & begin my campaigns , but time restricts me .
( my wife is leaving for her home country again as her visa expires & we are still waiting for her permanent residency )
So focusing on the beta is somewhat difficult time wise .( as time is thin at present)
I still spend a few hours ( 10&15 min spurts) doodling on the troops im working on , so progress is being made !
I have read each & every one of the reports so far & Western yr good mate & so are you Leith .
Macsen , I have no idea what Steam is & to be honest , I hope it does not deter us from modding .
Anyway , I will re read the reports as I have some ideas & comments :yes:

Hi Macsen
I've sent you the save. Can't dismount is a red herring (I must have been going goggle eyed) - but I still maintain that it is the heavy slingers (named as LT_slingers) who are causing the crash, but only when they have to be ranked as reinforcements

@DTS - no worries - as and when you have the time :2thumbsup:
@western - thanks for the update. I've grabbed the save file okay, but not sure when I'll get to look at it - got a lot of work on this week (makiing hay whilst the sun shines etc etc...)

I've tried cutting out the borders we discussed, and that's worked ok on the map. Haven't tested long-term impact yet.

ALSO fixed the dead bodies - if you want to mend your own copy, open up deadpagecoords.txt and change 'Pers_Archers' to 'Pers_Archer' - yep, another single-character error ramifying throughout the ranks! Must say it's been hard on my troops - picking out various units and sending them to their death just to see if they leave bodies behind... Whilst I was doing that, I saw the AI-Gandharans had teched up enough to train elephants in Syrastrene, though it took quite a while (game year ~240).

Decided simply to remove the musterfield from the build requirements for Median Camels - that way they'll only show up on the Khorasan Highway info page.

Ok, so I couldn't resist the temptation :clown:

Alas, the mystery merely deepens, because it did not crash in my beta-reinstall. As I was expecting the crash, I just chucked in a single stack from Media (with the 6-star general) and the Persians also decided to join in. The slingers were there in the Bab reinforcements, and we managed to fight the battle successfully (well, it was more successful for the Persians as they got the province...)

Here's a screenie of the carnage, just as the slingers are joining the battle.

Attachment 18689

That's disappointing because I just tried the exact same thing. 6 star general from Media, Persians also invade, crash before battle screen appears. Then I went in as Babylon, disbanded the slingers, and invaded as Egypt: no crash.

I don't think it's the computer not being up to the job. It can handle larger battles without the slingers. But two additional points:
- the computer does grind a bit before it crashes
- I can never properly see recruitment screens - only half the first recruitment screen and then the second half of the screen is black with a couple of unit icons on it.

[IMG]https://i1268.photobucket.com/albums...psdakasbj6.jpg[/IMG]

That ain't right - I remember being able to scroll thru recruitment screens in the old days. This is most likely a Steam issue and nothing to do with you. I tried XL mod and the same thing happened with recruitment screens - they did various graphic "fixes" when they rereleased MTW1 thru Steam

wow Mac , that's an awesome picture , great job that map ~;)

Western , Is it possible for you to install MTW the traditional way again ? ..... it be worth it ,
as it runs so smoothly without this .............................. Steam ??

I have no idea what Steam is or what the advantages are ?

btw , great bug busting

Keep on rolling on guys , im making progress whenever possible & the African Hoplites are looking really nice (mean)
cheers for now

Hi both,

I tried a second time, just to be sure the first time wasn't a fluke, and ths time I chucked everything into Susiana that I could (well, I left a few governors out of the fray, even though I'm not playing the full campaign...) This time I outnumbered the Persians, but the battle played fine again (well, it was a bit laggy with about 8000 troops involved, with lots of missiles to boot, but no crashing though).

I'm beginning to suspect that the issue does have something to do with Steam, then. We could probably narrow that down a bit by getting the save game file to both Dimitrios and Leith - I gather Leith has a Steam install, and Dimitrios is 'old school' like me. It could also be related to the problem Leith reported with the agora info pic being black, further up the thread. Perhaps you could check that, Western? It would give us another data point for triangulating on the problem.

I'd like to know what all those graphic 'fixes' were! (Apart from the obvious 'If it ain't bust....' qualifier.) Wonder if the parchment sizes have been changed or tiled, or is it something deeper like image formats being changed? Anyway, I have never seen a reinforcement panel looking like that before, Western - and your memory serves fine - there's usually no trouble scrolling through screens and screens of reinforcements. I'm assuming you've not had any similar problems with the unmodded Steam MTW/VI?

Slightly off topic but related: I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, but I only discovered it recently - if you fight a battle with an ally whose army is big enough for reinforcements, you can actually order those reinforcements the same as you can for your own army. How this is related, was that in the battle for Susiana I shuffled the Persians' one-star Shah down to the bottom to let one of their four-star princes take command.

And keep plugging away at those African hoplites, DTS - mean-looking is just the ticket :2thumbsup:


EDIT: One off-the-wall idea, Western - what resolution are you playing in? Just been skimming some Steam-related stuff, and wonder if trying it in old-fashioned 800x600 res may help?

Macsen
Please accept the accolade of genius. It hadn't occurred to me to play around with game resolution. Resolution was set to 800x600, when really the fixes that came with Steam were designed for play at higher resolutions. So I boosted up to the higher resolutions and found the crash problem disappeared and the reinforcement screen displayed correctly. So simple! Your off the wall idea was the correct one, though the reverse approach, of raising the resolution, was actually the key.

Why heavy slingers in the reinforcement screen interacted so badly with Steam I will never know and I no longer need to care. Now on to the next problem!

Great news western .......
Keep on bug busting mate , your good at it !
Just a thought !! ..... :idea2: for a more difficult game , can a player use the ian & get factions to begin hostilities on each other on the 1st turn & then just play out the game as normal ?
I imagine playing as Persia & having most of the other factions hunting you down !
This would really be Total War ~;)
.. im in & out as time permits .

Thanks Dimitrios. The brainwave was Macsen's, but I will agree that comparing notes often shines new light on a problem.

In regard to -ian, I think you can do as you say - so for example if you want to fight as Babylon, you could start as Persia, begin a war with Babylon, and then jump to be Babylon but now with a war on their hands. Jumping is very simple - and I think all the factions are open to -ian except the Medes. If Macsen wanted to use a vacant slot to bring their number down from FN_20 then they should become accessible too.

Excellent news, Western :2thumbsup:

I suppose it is possible to shift another faction slot - and yes, it's the Medes who are FN_20. I've still got a few free (03, 05, 06, 07 (BUT!), 10, and 11)

Hi guys,

I played the Spartans this time and went bankrupt in about 15 turns! I restarted and this time I recruited all the units I could get and attacked Argos! I couldn't take them out completely but weakened them enough. Eventually I took them out and then tried to decimate the Athenians who were very active in the northern part of the map. Luckily for me, they were destroyed by the Macedonians, who in turn were destroyed by the Thracians. I fought them and took back all the lands which belonged to Macedon. However the Lydians helped me a great deal. All the factions I encountered this time around were active.

The reason why the Spartans were not so active in the previous game was due to early bankrupcy. To remedy this situation you might want to consider giving the Spartans two elite units; Spartan Guards who consist of 80 men but are tougher than your average Spartan hoplites. That should cut the maintenance expenses almost by half. The second unit is your standard Spartan hoplites who could be recruited later on. Another solution might be giving them another province. Finally, thank you for creating this mod. I am enjoying it a lot.

P.S I have the old version of MTW, not the steam one.

P.S.S The agora's review icon is ok but the icon you receive when you get the message"the Agora has been built" is black.

Hi Leith,

Thanks for the update, and you're right - money is tight for the Spartans - in fact it's pretty tight for all the Greek factions, and as I mentioned in one of the Faction threads your strategic choices are basically 'blitz or starve' :bow:

Interesting idea to cut upkeep - I think a better way to go might be a smaller hoplite unit - maybe down to 100 men instead of 128 - even dropping it to 120 would make a difference. To my mind, an even tougher Spartan unit is not feasible - it's already almost impossible to defeat the Spartan hoplites with another hoplite army, and some of the Spartan princes with extreme VnVs become game-busting Jedis, IMHO. 'Tough' is fun, 'invincible' not so much....

I've been trying the Macs in ALEX today, and the Spartans wiped the floor with my pezhetairoi, until I finally lucked out and got a more favourable map. What's been bugging me is why Alex doesn't get his 'heroic king' stats in every game? Last game he did, this game, just the portrait - his proper VnVs didn't materialise. Even more annoying is that Artaxerxes keeps on being produced at age 25 (when Darius is already 23!) thereby messing up the succession set-up. So much for my theory that starting kings were generally between 40 and 50 yrs old.... I wish there was some way to fix the age of starting kings for sure.... all I've been able to do so far is to reduce Darius' age by ten years to give him a shot at the throne in time to fight Alex. Think I may have to make Artaxerxes another 'dead drunk' and hope he dies sooner. That works well for Philip II (as well as being quite historical), but I don't like it for Artaxerxes. In this last game it took me so long to quell the Spartans, a 64 year old Alex met (well chased....) Darius IV instead. I know, I know, it's almost impossible to recreate history with MTW, but I do want to get it a bit closer than it's managing so far.

OK, understood now about the black image - that's why I said to disable non-critical messages because these images don't exist for my new buildings. Because I NEVER see them myself I always forget to make them for the mod. It's on the 'to do' list, but will probably be done last :clown:

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Originally Posted by Leith

....bankrupt in about 15 turns! ..... attacked Argos ...weakened them enough.....decimate the Athenians who wee very active in the northern part of the map. Luckily for me, they were destroyed by the Macedonians, who in turn were destroyed by the Thracians. I fought them and took back all the lands which belonged to Macedon. However the Lydians helped me a great deal. All the factions I encountered this time around were active.

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Great report Leith ...sounded just like a game of Hellenic happening on your part of the map ! ... I hope yr suggestions on those adjustments make for a more fun challenging game ....
Have you played more turns on this campaign ?
Do you think its possible to get deep into Asia with the Greeks ?
Let us know and post a few pics of yr games also ...
Cheers

M

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Originally Posted by western

Thanks Dimitrios. The brainwave was Macsen's, but I will agree that comparing notes often shines new light on a problem.

In regard to -ian, I think you can do as you say - so for example if you want to fight as Babylon, you could start as Persia, begin a war with Babylon, and then jump to be Babylon but now with a war on their hands. Jumping is very simple ....o.

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Western , I'm just glad yr graphics issue is sorted and we are all on the same page ... As i have said i have not had time to begin a campaign yet but i do find your insights and testing valuable and enjoyable to read about and ponder !
Re;The Gandharan campaigns that you found very easy ... I have been thinking about them , as i mentioned -ian earlier im wondering if you would invest a little time and "make up a startpos specifically for Gandhara" .
Add agents or princesses in provinces to make all factions between gandahara to Persia to create alliances.
Also make a few small 3 or 4 unit armies to sacrifice to create war between gandhara and all or some of its neihhbours This can also be done to make allies all around Persia then some sacrificial armies to begin wars !!
So we truly have Total War .Advancing with gandhara will now be challenging .
Hopefully the AI factions fight united against Persia and thenalso yr incursions with the Indians .
Another thort !! Perhaps also aligning the religions to maximum advantage will help greatly .
As for the factions in the mediteranean just leave them be at present whilst you test it out ...
Cheers for now

Hi dimitrios! I have played the Spartans up to the point where I took out the Illyrians and then moved on. My gaming time is severly limited. Moreoever I have been experimenting with different bifs taken from METW, trying to find decent graphics for future mods. I hope you're progressing well on the unit graphics front.

OK, guys, I have a little request...

I'm currently working my way through battle maps and pre-battle panorama shots, trying to sort out the spaghetti farm that resides in those folders. I am making progress, even activating maps that are in there but weren't ever going to get called in RoP or Alex (including a killer map for Sogdiana that I must have made back in 2007, but didn't recognize when I played it...)

Anyway, what I need help with is reports of any incidences where any of the following happens:

• Pre-battle panorama is BLACK (this means the image doesn't exist)
• Pre-battle panorama is WRONG - ie it doesn't match the battlemap that shows in the battle
• An original MTW castle map shows up instead of a new one (HTW usually, plus a handful of my own) - ordinary battlefields are fine, it's the castles I want to know about
• The default battlemap shows up (this means the map called doesn't exist) - if you haven't seen it before the default map is almost featureless - no trees, no buildings, just a few ripples in the ground, with a noticeable depression just in front of the defenders' spawn point. (It's most obvious when it gets called instead of a castle - some of the higher level castles from HTW did this, but I think I have all of those sorted.)

If any of this stuff crops up in your campaigns can you let me know:

• The province
• Which border you crossed (eg invading Media from Persis etc) if it was a field battle
• The nature of the error

For the record, I know about the 'plains' castlemap which calls an MTW castle -- I have already made a replacement for this and it works well :book2: This is likely to crop up in Scythia, Sarmatia, Saka, Thyssagetia, Massagetia, Chersonese and Dahaea.

It's bit of a faff creating the new pre-battle panoramas, but I have a system going now, and if I can get a good list together of what needs sorting, so much the better.

Thanks for all your valiant efforts on the battlefield; I trust future generations will honour your sacrifices :bow:

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Originally Posted by Leith

Hi dimitrios! I have played the Spartans up to the point where I took out the Illyrians and then moved on. My gaming time is severly limited. Moreoever I have been experimenting with different bifs taken from METW, trying to find decent graphics for future mods. I hope you're progressing well on the unit graphics front.

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Hello Leith .. send me the save if you still have it would be great to continue it when i begin my testing soon ,cheers

Mac ...... I'm back & I will install & begin play testing within days .
"let me know which faction needs closer scrutinising "

Hi Dimitrios - start with the Ionians, then see where your fancy takes you :2thumbsup:

Ok ...
Campaign started , set on Hard on normal Unit Size .
Nice touch adding Dimitrios the Samian as a high valour Emissary !! hehe :laugh4:
I sent him of to make peace with the Lydians , whilst I set up some building & eyed up the Rebels next to my province .
A few turns later I attacked them & took their land .
Thracians , lost their King & the Macs sent me an emissary seeking alliance , I accepted .
A few turns past I built up a bit more , then I invaded Cyprus as rebels was there .
didn't pay off , I was outnumbered almost 2 to 1 & I auto-calced & was booted out .
After a few more turns , I decided to test the Lydians by attacking their allies the Mede's , after the battle which I won , the Lydians ceased their alliance with me , so as I wanted things will get interesting .
...............more will follow .
..........
Mac , its a winner !! so far .
I just loved the 2 battles I was involved in , nice battlescapes .
I did notice the following .
No Agora pic on parchment .
Eastern light Cavalry flickering on & off .
& white dot on mini expandable map during battle ( could be related ).

& a few Hellenic leftovers >>
Cretan archers always holding machera .
Heavy missile slingers holding no weapon when in hand to hand fighting .
Scythian Mercenary Horsemen holding axe then switching to firing Bow & alternating .
I will help out on these as I work my way thru all the bif plates .

I look forward to playing more soon .
cheers
D

Hi DtS,

Thanks for initial feedback :2thumbsup:

As I mentioned elsewhere, the emissary should have been Thales of Miletus, and DtS a general, but as I set them both to appear in the same year, you sometimes get DtS as emissary instead - that's now fixed.

Agora pic is fixed
I'll take another look at the eastern light cav - haven't noticed that myself

Cretans - yes, it's that or standing around empty-handed, which looks weird and even more so if they get into melee - they only put them away to shoot, and the same applies to the horse archers' axes. The problem is the 'standing' plate really - I just don't like the empty-handed look...

Slingers' weapons - think that might be fixed in my master copy, but will double check (tribal archers are probably the same, and I know I have fixed those...)


I've started looking at Diadochi now, and should start work on it tomorrow - I'm thinking 301BC makes about the best playable start point.

More later, off to work...

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

Cretans - yes, it's that or standing around empty-handed, which looks weird and even more so if they get into melee - they only put them away to shoot, and the same applies to the horse archers' axes. The problem is the 'standing' plate really - I just don't like the empty-handed look......

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I understand Macsen , re: Archers & mounted archers
We old campaigners of MTW & its mods have great imaginations & accept these little issues ......
but , great news !!! .... there is a simple way to rectify this .
I truly believe that if its possible we should do it ..... more on this topic later , & in the other thread .
& I did have DTS as a general too :laugh4: .

Wow ! Diadochi nice :bow: & yes 301 BC is perfect !

UPDATE IONIAN CAMPAIGN

Ok , Played two sessions more since my last update .
I just turtled along , year in year out & built up my infrastructure & better soldiers .
Now I have Hoplites & Lydian Spearmen available , with Cavalry very close .
I almost went bankrupt , for about 5 or 6 turns I was getting poorer , So war was inevitable .
I attacked Cyprus again which still was in Rebel hands & won it .
I also gained another province from the Mede's who just backed out & didn't step up to fight .
In the interim , the Lydians & I made peace & are my allies after marriage , So they have been behaving themselves whereas the Babylonians have been caught by my bodyguards on a number of occasions & iirc killed one of my spy's or assasins .
My kings & queens have been pumping out heirs , so been active with my Princesses marrying them to my generals & also sending them out scouting the outer provinces nearby .
Its a bloody awesome mod this one !
More twists await here as the Gandaharans have are closing in & with Babylonians causing trouble , im going to rethink my strategy .
more will follow ................
I did notice Armour upgrades applying to Archaic Archers ? ..did you set it up like this mac ?

Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like an interesting campaign so far :2thumbsup: Good to hear the Gandharans are on the march...

I found an early blitz is necessary if you don't want to starve, and in the beginning the Lydians are too tough to crack, so there's only one way to go (ok maybe two...) Cyprus is a good province to get, especially for a Greek faction. It has Greek recruitment, copper deposits, and good trade potential. You probably noticed (hopefully in time) that starting rebel mercenary hoplites come in lumps of 200, just to add to the challenge of getting some of those important provinces. However, it borders two sea regions so it can be expensive to protect from invasion.

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I did notice Armour upgrades applying to Archaic Archers ? ..did you set it up like this mac ?

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That's normal, hard-coded MTW behaviour - weapon and armour upgrades apply to all troops.

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

That's normal, hard-coded MTW behaviour - weapon and armour upgrades apply to all troops.

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hmmmmm .... more food for thought , re: getting CA to release another Patch , doing some simple things on the code for us loyal followers .
Anyway , I'll be campaigning more tonite & I have a few strategies I can try .... I may do both from the same save point & see what develops & report back in a few days

UPDATE IONIAN CAMPAIGN

Played (turtled) along for another 2 sessions of testing .
Some nice developments happening , Babylon & Persia both powerhouses & along with myself have almost taken out the Medes .
I was prepping an Army to take out Medes last province but the Persians got in first .
My neighbours the Lydians were not doing any expanding at all & I prepped myself to begin hostilities , I set up & moved in one 1 province & to my surprise the backed out !
I also had two rebellions during these two sessions , one in Cyprus which was a tough battle & the other in Albania , which I quelled also .
My economy has stabilised & it requires adjusting turn to turn (nice) .
So , it will be all out war with Lydians soon & whilst I'm doing that keep an eye on developments around me .
cheers

UPDATE IONIAN CAMPAIGN

Have played quite a few turns in a few sessions since last update .
The Lydians are no more ! & there will be major battles with both Persians & Babylonians in the East .
The Macedonians are building on that side of the world & have taken out the Skyths Im good at present allied with the Macs .
The Egyptians are holding their own & I will be looking to ally with them to surround the Persians & Babs .
Im really looking forward to the big battles coming up !

I have noticed many nice touches .. Master of Mint , establish Greek Colony & a few others .
I will report in again once the big battles start .
Noticed that flashing Cavalry glitch , I mentioned it before , it was the Kalapa this time ( maybe a Bif problem ?

All good stuff, DtS. Good to know you've spotted some of the new features :2thumbsup:

I'm still mystified by the cavalry glitch. I haven't seen anything along those lines myself, with one possible exception: sometimes you see individual sprites switching between different view angles quite rapidly when the camera can't quite decide which 'side' of the unit it should see. If that's it, then I don't think there's anything that can be done, it also happens in vanilla. It seems to occur most often if the unit is either 'skirmishing' in a tight spot or running away.... It will be more evident with cavalry due to the overall shape of the sprite, it's not so easy to see with infantry. Let me know if that sounds like what you're seeing :bow:

Good luck with the Babs and Persians ~D

: UPDATE IONIAN CAMPAIGN :


Played quite a few more turns since my last update .
Well what twists & turns !!
As I reported I was prepping for battles in the East either with Babs or Persia , well with Lydia no more I attacked Babylon !
We had a few battles I won two & lost one & overall I took some territory , but the Lydians re-appeared !
King Crossus & his 3 sons :stare: , about 1000 strong in each stack .
I lost Cyprus too the Babs as I didn't have my navy built up enough also .
Over in the East , Sparta is back & slugging it out with the Macs .
As my new figures are getting closer to completion i'm finding it harder too play :laugh4:
but I will keep this save & see how it all pans out in this install .