Romanian Public Protests

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.642eaed50ad6

http://www.euronews.com/2017/02/01/r...graft-offences

Tens of thousands of people have been marching lately in Romania to protests the decriminalization of offences such as graft and abuse of power in public conduct, not to mention corruption. This would literally bring out a considerable number of prisoners, and it would also close the current investigations on a considerable number of politicians within the country, hence the uproar.

The revolt brought out tens of thousands of people in bitter cold, which will soon make it even bigger as the law was adopted late last night (at midnight), in secrecy.

A little info from Romania, since you might have noticed a considerable number of news lately about it.

:bow:

Anything to do with the reported success in recent years of anti-corruption prosecutor Laura Codruța Kövesi?

Eeeexactly. :yes:

In short, a lot of politicians have been convicted of corruption, and in some cases, huge amounts of money have been funneled from state contracts to party members. Some of them are in jail, a lot of them have cases brought upon them by the DNA (Directia Nationala Anticoruptie - National Anticorruption Directorate) which is led by Mrs. Kovesi.

The DNA has been a serious scare for many of them, and in many cases the DNA is regarded as one of the success stories of justice and anticorruption in Eastern Europe. The New York Times even featured an article about Mrs. Kovesi. - https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/15/w...ta-kovesi.html

The politicians are really desperate, and it shows. The way that the law was adopted last night (at midnight!) without any proper approval from the Superior Council of Magistrates (which is required by law) and then put into the official law monitor at 1:30 AM (!!!!!!) shows the magnitude of desperation.

I wonder what flavour of lynching they will choose; will they drag a guillotine out of the closest napoleonic museum, find the country's largest tree and longest length of rope or will they simply raid a rather shady army surplus store and take the political class to the closest wall that needs a new coat of paint.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

I wonder what flavour of lynching they will choose; will they drag a guillotine out of the closest napoleonic museum, find the country's largest tree and longest length of rope or will they simply raid a rather shady army surplus store and take the political class to the closest wall that needs a new coat of paint.

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https://youtu.be/-IArFepCDF0?t=266

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Originally Posted by Husar

https://youtu.be/-IArFepCDF0?t=266

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She said "assassinate", not "execute". :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

She said "assassinate", not "execute". :shrug:

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He said (lynching), she said (assassinate)... :shrug:

:dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

I wonder what flavour of lynching they will choose; will they drag a guillotine out of the closest napoleonic museum, find the country's largest tree and longest length of rope or will they simply raid a rather shady army surplus store and take the political class to the closest wall that needs a new coat of paint.

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Romania includes Transylvania, does it not? So Hollywood tells us that it has to be a goodly sized mob with farm implements and torches -- I wonder if they will still require the mob to dress Bavarianesque and speak in a mix of lower class Brit and stereotypical German accented English?

Humor aside, I hope they can get the corruption dialed back hard. Endemic corruption is a plague upon the body politic.

Wait? What?

Who exactly has passed these "Emergency Decrees"? The Parliament, the office of the President?

Can they be impeached for flagrant abuse of power?

Edit:

Ah, I see - it's Parliament:

BBC has taken note, EU angry:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38828711

The Executive has this power of "Emergency Decree" which allows them to bypass the Parliament and take immediate action because they are given consent implicitly by the Parliament.

So technically, the executive can pass laws without explicit Parliamentary vote. The practice is widespread, causing considerable problems over time. As evidence today.

As for the protests... everyone has been peaceful so far, and I hope it stays that way. But I doubt it - the fury and outrage is huge.

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Originally Posted by Husar

https://youtu.be/-IArFepCDF0?t=266

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There's a difference between a revolutionary lynching and a wingnut's assassination dream.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Romania includes Transylvania, does it not? So Hollywood tells us that it has to be a goodly sized mob with farm implements and torches -- I wonder if they will still require the mob to dress Bavarianesque and speak in a mix of lower class Brit and stereotypical German accented English?

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Ah of course, Transylvania, the sharpened spike business is bound to boom.

I can see the Turks flinching allready.

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Originally Posted by Husar

https://youtu.be/-IArFepCDF0?t=266

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There seems to be this demographic of doughy dudes with patchy facial hair running their own "real and unbaised" news network on youtube, complete with a totally unnecessary ticker. Their reporting seems to include a breathless non-sequitur for each news report, devoid of any sort of deep analysis and focused on promoting outrage in their base. They seem to offer minimal knowledge on the subject, either because they mistrust experts, or the experts they contacted are unwilling to go down the path of career suicide. Now, I have them all in my feed because I forgot to open up a private window in firefox before viewing one of them. Thanks Husar. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Greyblades

There's a difference between a revolutionary lynching and a wingnut's assassination dream.

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Which is?

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Originally Posted by Husar

Which is?

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Executions and lynchings are team-building activities, while assassinations are unaccountable to the public.

Unfortunately, the law will become official in about 10 days - until then the Constitutional Court has to be notified with regards to the law officially, and it has to be done by the institution of the Ombudsman.

But the Ombudsman... well, let's just say he campaigned for this law indirectly.

:shame:

Is the protest movement strong enough? Bloomberg here claims around 100,000 protesters over the weekend before the legislative action. What are the numbers now?

Almost 300.000 in the whole country.

150.000 just in Bucharest.

It is the biggest public demonstration in Romanian history after the Romanian Revolution of 1989.

300.000 people protested last night in the streets against the government and the corruption.

The government said it won't back down.

So more protests and more pressure will follow.

Firstly - sorry, when I said "Parliament" I meant "Cabinet".

My understanding is your President is against this, can't he do anything to at least slow down the enacting od the law?

Also - keep at it - dig your heals in. Please don't burn too much of Bucharest though, I plan to visit one day.

I'll certainly be following this. Good luck to the Romanians on the street :bow:

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Also - keep at it - dig your heals in. Please don't burn too much of Bucharest though, I plan to visit one day.

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Precisely what I was gonna say. Don't let them get away with it.

Looks like the protests worked.

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Originally Posted by Dâriûsh

Looks like the protests worked.

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On one hand, it's hard to believe a prodigal government returning on the back of widespread popular support for a long tenure could misuse that capital so catastrophically, so fast.

is there anything (else) sub rosa going on in the legislature to take advantage of the commotion, perhaps?

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

On one hand, it's hard to believe a prodigal government returning on the back of widespread popular support for a long tenure could misuse that capital so catastrophically, so fast.

is there anything (else) sub rosa going on in the legislature to take advantage of the commotion, perhaps?

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Entrenched privilege is a strange thing.

They just got reelected - so clearly people want more graft in their government, given that the last lot were about less graft.

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

Entrenched privilege is a strange thing.

They just got reelected - so clearly people want more graft in their government, given that the last lot were about less graft.

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Well, it seems to be the same party (leading the government) that was forced out by 2015 protests. :shrug: And though they won a good %, overall turnout wasn't as good.

In the end, the street prevailed. The decree was struck down.

BUT - it's not over yet. The problem is the following - the decree was taken back, but the law can easily pass through the Parliament and we're back to square one and with even more furious protests.

So it's the first battle only.

The protests however will continue - and tonight, the biggest one will follow.

600.000 people protested last night, it was fantastic. :balloon2:

Despite the annulment of the problematic decree, the people still came out in HUGE numbers to protest the decree (why was it passed in the first place) and the decree (there's still a chance it will be passed into law!) and the government for not doing it's job.

Good, don't let them forget they screwed up.

Well the problem is that they are now making the decree go through the Parliament almost unchanged (one major exception) which means that most likely the protests will continue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVKTDOCkfPs

200.000 people light up their phones in protest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Qtc_zlGhc&t=5s

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVKTDOCkfPs

200.000 people light up their phones in protest.

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Wow

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Qtc_zlGhc&t=5s

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Wrong thread?

Associations.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Associations.

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An excellent example of why one shouldn't just post a video without context.

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Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

An excellent example of why one shouldn't just post a video without context.

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What are you about PVH? Bucking for a moderator job or something? ~D

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

What are you about PVH? Bucking for a moderator job or something? ~D

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God, I hope not.

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Originally Posted by Montmorency

Associations.

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Haka is Union, not Association.

50.000 people protested tonight and formed a Romanian flag in front of the palace of the government (Victoria Palace - not the huge Palace of the Parliament).

Will come back with a photograph.

Refreshing to see something that could be considered a grassroots movement in this age, for once.

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

50.000 people protested tonight and formed a Romanian flag in front of the palace of the government (Victoria Palace - not the huge Palace of the Parliament).

Will come back with a photograph.

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Footage of the event.

Has this become 4Chan? Come on guys, are we just trying to pointlessly inflate our post-count now?

On topic - protests continue, less intensely in Bucharest but they are spreading to other cities.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/09/w...smtyp=cur&_r=0

Corruption is so embedded in the medical system that it’s nearly impossible to change without the help of the judicial system. A lot of my colleagues do take bribes from their patients. Some of them won’t treat someone who doesn’t offer them money, although Romania’s medical system guarantees free access to medical services. I don’t take money from my patients, and when I refuse their money, some get worried, thinking I refused them because they have some sort of terminal disease. Some think you’re a low-quality doctor if you treat them without charge.

On protesting: I went to all of the protests that have taken place in Bucharest during the last three weeks. Like so many others, I felt that the recent government decree, which was adopted at 10:30 p.m., was the first sign that Romania was turning away from democracy and the rule of law.

— Dan Arama, 31, a doctor in Bucharest.

Unfortunately, it is true. Bribing is commonplace - and this is exactly what the current anti-corruption drive is trying to work on.

When will they learn and become a proper democracy where the bribes are stopped and instead we have a completely open and fair system where politicians buy off Industry with peerages and Industry buys off Politicians with well paid consultancy roles / speaker engagements?

Are these protests "democratic" or "popularist"? The latter appears to be what people want, but shouldn't.

~:smoking:

The protests are 150% democratic. Nobody ordered these protests, totally spontaneous, totally democratic and it's the "street" that represents Romania best now.

:bow:

Well this has turned into... an absurd comedy.

Or absurd tragedy, take it how you like.

The Prime Minister, appointed by the party and the leader that orchestrated the infamous Law 13 (with the corruption validation) has been excluded by his own party and will now face a... vote of no-confidence.

That's right - the party that put that cabinet, all of them members of the party, will now vote to bring them down. Worse, if this doesn't pass, the country will be without a government.

:dizzy2: :dizzy2: :inquisitive: :shame:

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...on-replacement

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/0...201405765.html

What's Romanian for "God Save the King?"

I think it goes in the way "Somebody please save us all".

I haven't seen something as ridiculous as this in Romanian politics, and we have a serious amount of scandals and embarassments. But trying to strike down your own members? What in the world...

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

I think it goes in the way "Somebody please save us all".

I haven't seen something as ridiculous as this in Romanian politics, and we have a serious amount of scandals and embarassments. But trying to strike down your own members? What in the world...

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Well, the Conservatives might do it to our government next week.

Aaaand.... the government fell. The first time in Europe a party downed their own government.

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Aaaand.... the government fell. The first time in Europe a party downed their own government.

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I can't imagine it's the first time, but I feel your pain. From everything you're told us though, this may be for the best.

While we all hoped for the best... this got even uglier.

In short, the DNA (National Anticorruption Directorate) has been very vocal and quite efficient in combating corruptions, particularly against local figures. However, with the pressure of the ruling party to modify the rule of law, this has come up.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.32d6e295e12f

Odd that I did not hear about this, I know Romanians here

Some more info.

http://www.dw.com/en/romanian-court-...ief/a-44013293

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-r...-idUSKCN1IV1SX

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.75c5eb1a0e41

Massive protests again - the controversial penal code modifications have been approved.

And protests again because this time... the law passed.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-r...-idUSKBN1JU26M

Out of curiosity, edzy, did you notice an attempt from the authorities to distract the people from the issue? Something like a national controversy emerging from nowhere, involving Hungarians or Russians.

Yes, of course - but it's not necessarily against other people because there is a consistent absence of severe animosity towards other countries.

What they're doing instead is the same thing like in the USA - the deep state, called here the "parallel state", is the one responsible for the opposition. Distraction.

Last night I got tear-gassed multiple times in some very serious street clashes with the Gendarmerie.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45156598

https://www.romania-insider.com/aust...arest-protest/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...protests-video

More than 400 people were injured as the riot police charged us and gassed us multiple times.

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Last night I got tear-gassed multiple times in some very serious street clashes with the Gendarmerie.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45156598

https://www.romania-insider.com/aust...arest-protest/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...protests-video

More than 400 people were injured as the riot police charged us and gassed us multiple times.

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Glad that you are not hurt.

I was quite in the middle of it all to be fair - I got charged at multiple times by the Gendarmerie and I had to run in order to avoid being trampled down and literally beaten, because that's what happened.

99% of people were protesting peacefully but some instigators (which I have seen, they were close to me in fact) started throwing various objects, including rocks, at the Gendarmerie. This suddenly turned into a tear gas fest with entire cans & drums of irritant agent being sprayed all over the Victoriei Plaza. Children, elderly, mothers... everyone was gassed, some square in the face. That gas is horrendous - chokes you and water makes it actually worse so you need either milk or Maalox (a chemical agent). The tear gas was indiscriminately thrown around.

At the end of the day, at around 11:00 PM, the Gendermes got orders - clear the plaza. What followed was literally clashes, fights and some burned barricades and people were protesting at 4 AM.

65.000 protested again last night.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.2bde207f851a

A good breakdown of what's going on - people are still very angry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra54g3CsxuU

https://www.romania-insider.com/roma...mans-complaint

This is not The Onion.

https://www.ft.com/content/2a46946e-...b-1fe89bedc16e

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Romania’s treatment of its former anti-corruption chief has divided Europe and is now pitting Brussels’ institutions against one another. Bucharest’s legal pursuit of Laura Codruta Kovesi on charges of corruption and abuse of office is spilling over into Brussels business.MEPs want Kovesi to become the first head of Europe’s new public prosecutor’s office (EPPO).

EU governments, wary of getting involved in each others’ internal affairs, would rather she not.The two sides clashed dramatically on Thursday, with MEPs accusing governments of turning a blind eye to Romania’s treatment of Ms Kovesi and Bucharest’s deteriorating rule of law at a time when the country holds the rotating presidency of the EU.

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A direct consequence of the protests is the elevation of Kovesi to the EU role.

A glimmer of hope.

With almost 50% election turnout for the European Parliament, Romania has elected a strongly pro-EU cohort of politicians, with thousands of people protesting at the same time due to the fact they can't vote. Adding to that, the ruling party president was sent to jail the next day.

https://www.economist.com/europe/201...-back-on-track

Romania gave a stunning defeat to nationalistic, pro-corruption forces today in the Presidential election, with the current incumbent, President Iohannis, winning at a margin of about 68% in the runoff Presidential vote. Pro-EU, economically liberal, sort of conservative party, tough of corruption.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/24/w...-election.html

https://www.euronews.com/2019/11/24/...or-re-election

IMO they were pretty poor articles. Even if Iohannes was the next best thing after sliced bread, they could have given a more impartial description. They seem to be confused about facts as well.

The social-democrats have winning in elections since 2012, not 2016. Anyway, it's not like the 6-Houses professor comes from a pristine party. Under his leadership, the liberals merged with the conservatives of the Democratic Party of the infamous Basescu.

Many former liberals were completely furious, when their favourite party, based on a platform of eradicating Basescu cronyism betrayed them. Iohannis himself does not have a serious political programme (in fact, he cannot speak Romanian very well), apart from abstract calls for the eradication of corruption and it has been long assumed that he emerged only under the patronage of minister Braga.

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

Romania gave a stunning defeat to nationalistic

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?! I mean they are a bit, but not more than the center-right.

Not quite - Basescu campaign on a platform on eradicating cronyism and especially eliminating the "robber barons" who controlled significant amounts of wealth in the country. Most of what DNA (National Anticorruption Agency) has achieved was targeted towards very wealthy, influential people who used to do state contracts for wealth.

As for the nationalism, it's a fake nationalism, pandering to Romanian ideology that in many cases is not even really patriotic / nationalism. A very odd mix, sometimes quite confusing.