Kataphraktoi

Hey Kata http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

I posted on your Dark Age thread about helping you, but i also read on my alexius mod that you wouldnt mind possibly helpin out too.

So i was wondering if i came up with list of new units to be made for a Islamic Conquest Era (650-700) and a Byzantine Offensive era campaign (863-1025) we could do some cool latter dark age stuff.

From what i understand, you will have even more abilities to make new units with VI - so if we laid the groundwork now, and couple the possibilites of VI we could do some great latter dark ages mods.

I'll do research and focus on startpos and other files if you can make the new units.

Perhaps even a few of our historian friends can pitch in on some research if we need any. What you think?

What units do you have on your mind???

U realise that if u make new units from scratch u can't play your old savegames except for your latest savegame with the new units.

Modding existing units will change your some of your replays units.

I have some thoughts perhaops u can expand on them?
Pharganoi tagmata, elite infantry
Banu Habib fast light footed skirmishers
Khurramites medium infantry like a Turcoman footsoldier

I reckon we should give the Byz the abiltiy to train vikings but only in the areas where they can be found.

Any chance of bulking up the Byz fleet? The Byz fleet had a capital fleet, they had exclusive naval bases in the Carabisian theme where southern coast of Nicaea is in MTW. often they were split between Black Sea and Aegean duties.

In my mod I gave bonuses for fleets made in Crete, Cyprus and Rhodes

Have you thought of increasing trade? Adding tradeable goods to more regions, the AI seems to bankrupt itself, some more tradable goods would stimulate their economies, also I added more resources in certain regions.

Klibanophori don;t appear in this period till Nicephorus or John Curcuas's time so I guess they don;t appear in the early Islamic period

What units do you have on your mind???

U realise that if u make new units from scratch u can't play your old savegames except for your latest savegame with the new units.

Modding existing units will change your some of your replays units.

I have some thoughts perhaops u can expand on them?
Pharganoi tagmata, elite infantry
Banu Habib fast light footed skirmishers
Khurramites medium infantry like a Turcoman footsoldier

I reckon we should give the Byz the abiltiy to train vikings but only in the areas where they can be found.

Any chance of bulking up the Byz fleet? The Byz fleet had a capital fleet, they had exclusive naval bases in the Carabisian theme where southern coast of Nicaea is in MTW. often they were split between Black Sea and Aegean duties.

In my mod I gave bonuses for fleets made in Crete, Cyprus and Rhodes

Have you thought of increasing trade? Adding tradeable goods to more regions, the AI seems to bankrupt itself, some more tradable goods would stimulate their economies, also I added more resources in certain regions.

Klibanophori don;t appear in this period till Nicephorus or John Curcuas's time so I guess they don;t appear in the early Islamic period






http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynextdoor/AD713.jpg

ad 713

http://www.geocities.com/weirdguynex...rieeleison.jpg

da map

as u can see close to finish but no cigars yet.

In my alexsius mod, i have already beefed up trade items throughout the map, nearly every coastal province has at least (1) trade item, most have several - which i based off of lots of research.

As far as units - well i dont every unit we would need for either period, but i had a few ideas.

tagmata forces
some forms of slavic infantry
theme infantry, archers and cavalry
various armenian, georgian, & other auxillery/ally troops
rus warrios (vikings)
khazars
pecenegs
various bulgarian units
germanic tribal units (for visigothic spain, the franks, and lombards)
some islamic units

any input by you would be great too, i admit i dont know everything about the military forces of this time - my expertise tends to be more in the socio-politico sphere of history - and to be honest military "units" for this time is generally sketchy at best.

Im pretty sure that most early era units are applicable to at least the 863 era - afterall chainmail is chainmail, only difference is regional units and peoples.

and yeah in my mod, Byz can train viking in the Rus lands, crimea and const.

additionally with VI, we may hopefully be able to add some of the units found therein, into MTW, that would help out with new units too.

As far as old save games, once i get all the units i desire and all the mods im workin on, ill never play another mod, or the orig mtw anyways http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif so it wont matter to me hehe

I'm looking forward to making Tagmata units myself,

hey Galestrum should we make the Tagmata units unique units that can only be trained and produced in Constantinople????
Since the Tagmata was the only full time professional mobile force around compared to the soldier farmers of Anatolia who were part timers rather than full time professionals.
This would add a challenge in that an Emperor has to make the choice of whether he should send his Tagmata to the East of the West or divide his Tagmata halving its full effectiveness as a complete force?
I know there were several Tagmata groups perhaps we can make certain tagmata groups into specific unit groups??


eg, Scholae are heavy infantry only
Heteira are heavy cavalry only
Numeri are axe beaers eetc, etc only

takes some real micromanagement.

When ur ready to start send me the startpos mod so I orientatte myself and familiarise myself with the period, send me some historical notes if you think certain aspects of certain units should be emphasised ok???

this is a great idea Kata, in my Alexius Mod i changed production dramatically

The idea of many unique troops tied to geographical regions is very important and realistic. Amenians, anatolians, balkans etc should all have their strengths and weaknesses, and raised/produced in their homelands.

The tagmata units should for the most part limited to Const, basic theme units anywhere, armenians to armenia etc etc etc

Basic frontline Imperial units should be produced anywhere that has a castle7 and a royal palace (this would imitate the large cities/administrative centers) that could produce units like Byz Inf but not the elite tagmata etc

I should be done readin on Byz 863-to Basil by tommorrow, then ill send you a basic overview, also whats your email?

mine is galestrum@cfl.rr.com

email you soon

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

fuzzwuzznuzz@hotmail.com

Yeah i agree reconstructing the administrative system fo the EMpire is important. Tagmata here we come, I hope the other fellas are keeping up with our developments.

How are the titles of the governors coming up?
Are they still governors or are they :
Strategos
Clissurachs
Dukes

I love how Byzantium has so many titles that are either practical or useless but have cool long names like Spathocandidaturoi
or Sebastocrator

Hey Kata,

so far this is what i have gotten done. My info comes from (2) books The Late Byzantine Army by Bartusis, which covers the Byzantine Army after 1204, obviously im only takin info from here which relates prior 1204 info.

My primary source is The Making Of Byzantium by Whittow which covers 600-1025 AD.

Basically we have a few issues and approaches we can take. According to him, the "theme armies" orginnated in the early 720s for a firm date - some say earlier others later, but around this time, there is firm evidence for what people deemed the theme armies.

He said that all we know about them infantry "was that they existed" and that all the info we have regards the thematic cavalry. He described theme cavalry as "shadowing" the ememy and doing hit and run raids - and if the invaders were not pushed back or left of their own accord - only then would there be a battle.

He says that the theme cavalry was heavily armoured and elite and well paid.

The Tagmata is what destroyed the Theme system, interestingly, both armies were based upon military philophies. The Theme armies were defensive in nature and tied to local areas and formed the core of the field armies.
The tagmata was centered on Constantinople and the Emperor and was offensive in nature.

The tagmata was described as elite, well paid and well trained, often many were foriegners (a trend which grew more and more) as these became more trusted by Emperors as oppossed to local troops.

The Tagmata can be seen as coming into its own between 930-950 AD. It appears that most of the elite Theme forces were slowly transferred into the Tagmata and as time went by, the Theme armies became very poor in military value, basically viewed as merely "militia forces", of little military use.

Other Byzantine units of import were the Armenians, Khazars, Rus, some black african units (similar to the negro spearmen from the sounds)among others.

Regarding the Tagmatic Armies, they were described as a mixture of Heavy and light spearmen, with heavy cavalry used to smash enemy infantry and cavalry formations and archers and slingers.

more to come

Kataphraktos were described as med cavalry armed with lance and bow

Kilanophorous as massively armored shock cavalry, mostly armed with lance, though 1/5 had a bow

Most Light cavalry came from mercs (pecenegs, turks, etc)

Theme Cavalry seemed to come in a heavy version armed with lance and a lighter version with bow and lance

Trapezti Cavalry was a light roman cavalry often armed with sword and spear along with javelins - some were mentioned to be horse archers

There were (4) tagmata regiments, scholae, excubiti, Arithmos(vigla) and Ikanatoi. Scholae being the best, Ikanatoi being the newest, and least seasoned. All were elite however.

Byzantine Skuatoi were described thus: armed with a heavy pike 12-14 feet in length, a short sword, wearing heavy armor like their cavalry counterparts. They were "skilled at handling cavalry assaults". They also hurled javelins, armed with 1-2 heavy javelins each.

As a general rule, all the front line Byzantine units were described as being highly disciplined.

Slavic Tribal forces were described as being fast and able to ambush effectively. They wore little to no armor, but had shields.

Hungarian Cavalry often had bow, sabre, and spear and axe, and were fast and adept at ambushes.

Arab forces seem similar to what we already have. There seemed to be a fanatical core around this time, similar to the ghazi infantry as well as something called the "Jund" cavalry. Along with the bedouin, and light and medium arab cavalry. They were noted as often imitating byzantine forces in type, but tended to be more numerous but less disciplined (as reflected in MTW to some extent).

Byzantine Light Infantry seems to be similar to the Trebizond Archers, lightly armored, armed with a bow and a battle axe.

The Bulgarians had a noble or elite cavalry and used slavic infantry and slavic skirmishers as infantry. whereas the bulgarians formed most of the horse archers and assault cavalry.

There are a few books made by the Osprey series which may be somewhat helpful but i dont have them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/frown.gif

thats about all the info i have access too. Perhaps we can make some of these unit types, and use some of those already created ib LKs expansion pack.

I know they have Bulgarian, magyar, avar, georgian cavalry. We could use some slavic infantry types to be made and some Rus warrior types, and perhaps Varangians, before they became the Varangian Guard.

potential factions for 863 era include :

1)Romans
2)Bulgarian
3)Khazars
4)Kievan Rus
5)Pope (minus crusades)
6)Arab Raidin Emirates of (Antioch, Edessa, Lesser Armenia, Armenia, Cyprus and Crete)
7)Abassid Caliphate (i think thats right) Based in Baghdad, in effect the Egyptian Faction
8) The Franks - France
9) HRE
10) Kingdom of Italy
11) Spanish (Austurias) - not exactly, but what would become the spanish
12) Burgundy
13) Danes
14) Great Moravia

its kinda hard to find alot of "factions' in this time period as most of europe still resembled a bunch of independent tribal groups - any idea from others would be cool. Basically for the period 863 on

If this is too hard, we could go to the time slightly before the accension of Basil II 976-1025, but of course wed lose that presents factional problems as well, for instance the Bulgars and Raiding emirates are already destroyed

regarding titles yeah there were many, and most were absolutely meaningless. I dont mind adding additional titles, however, i dont think we should add a bunch of meaningless titles, as they would be, well meaningless http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif

If we do a theme era mod, the governors should be called stratgoi - otherwise, doux or duke is perfectly fine, although we may wanna do a lil research on specific provincial titles if we want to get crazy motivated http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif

regarding the tagmata, is it possible to make their shilds have the byzantine symbol on it? i have noticed the skuatoi from LKs expansion have the flag symbol on the shields in certain maps.

It would be great for the tagmata to have that symbol for their battles.

Did you want to break down the tagmata by troop type or by division? from what i read the 4 divisions of the tagmata were merely broken down by experience and position not by weapon type or what not. If this was the case i suggest breaking the tagmata down by weapon type.

You seem to know alot about this, if you have any sources i could get a hold of id love to learn more - where is hera and elwe and the other history dorks? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif

For the Tagmata we might need to force our own historical "correctness"

I think the Tagmata should be arranged by unit type to make it easier, and also I think we should identify the byzantine units that can only be produced for the Tagmata be restricting them to be produced at Constantinople or Nicaea or Anatolia.

We should set aside a Tagmata where it consists only of mercenaries hired from the Inn, this will cover the Pharganoi, the Ethopian unit, Khazars and other foreign units. (Varangian Guards are different from the Tagmata, they are a unit to themselves)

Tagmata units only not trained anywhere else:
Constantinople:
Klibanophori = Scholae?
Kataphraktoi = Excubiti?

Nicaea
Byzantine Cavalry = Ikanatoi?
Pronoia Allagion (don;t exist till the Comnenes so how bout we make them Latin knights in service of Byzantium given land?)

Anatolia:
Skutatoi infatry (front rank, heavy infantry, full time professionals) best place for these are the hardy, warlike and tough anatolians on the plateau where mountainous warfare is their bread and butter.

Mercenaries tagmata = Vigla?

Other untis are considered normal and can be produced anywhere else:
Byzantine infantry (part time soldier farmers)
Turcoman horseman (can be considered as Arabs who have settled under byzantine protection as is the case with Banu Habib and the Khurramites)
Armenian Heavy Cavalry (25% of Byzantine army was at least of this ethnic stock, should be restricted to Armenia, Rum and Trebizond where Armenians are concentrated, i don;t believe they should trained by Islamic factions, exception is the Egyptians)
Trebizond Archers as light infantry (restrict them to Trebizond only???)

By putting restrictions we identify provincial soldiers over the Tagmata who are professional soldiers.

i have done some tweaking with the Byz cav forces namely the ByCav, Kata and Klib excludes Pronoia. Here are the Tagmatic cavalry forces

Byzantine Cavalry serve the role of Kataphraktois which is what they are historically, they are armed with a lance, bow and a sword, lance for charging, bow for skirmishing and a sword for the melee. This is the essential heavy cavalryman in the Byzantine army.

Kataphraktois replaced by Byzantine cavalry but represented the next level higher than the Byzantine cavalry, they are highly paid and are trained in Constantinople only as the heavy cavalry corps.

Klibanophori is the elite of the Tagmata corps (by the time it takes to train one we are well into the age of John Curcuas or Nicephorus Phocas whom this unit appears)
Trained by the central government and equipped by the central government they are expensive and small in number but superbly disciplined and trained to deliver the knockout blow in battle. Armed with a lance and mace, mace is preferred weapon of the Klibanophori for their shcok value.

There are four main Tagmatas but the inclusion of a separate Varangian unit makes it 5 essential Tagmatic forces.

Tagmatic forces are often mounted rather than foot infantry, foot infantry are often the capital garrison rather than field service.

The mobility and as you said offensive nature favours a cavalry mounted force, with the Byz cav, Kata and the Klib you have ur elite Tagmatic force.
They are delibrately expensive since the Byzantine were the most well paid of all armies. Restricting where they can trained only adds to their elite status.

I like a new title to be made called "Warrior Saint", a canonisation of an individual for outstandinf achievements in the field of religion and warfare. Living Saints were common as were dead military saints. I tried it once and inspired holy fear in the enemy. No joke.

Strategos for the large Asia Mnor themes (Nicaea, Anatolia and trebizond)

Ducates for frontier provinces like Rum, Antioch or Edessa or even Armenia

Catapan for Italian provinces

Strategos for European provinces

Ducates for the Aegean Islands

What do you think???

Gee where are Herac and Elwe when u need them?

Here are my thoughts on factions and their provinces

Kievan Rus (people of novgorod) Kiev
Bulgars (Polish) Bulgaria, Wallachia
Ommayad Emirate (Almohads) Cordoba, Castile, Granada and Morocco
Tulunids (Egyptians, autonomous from the Abbasid, the Abbasids are decentralising at this point so some semi-independent Arab foes might be good for generating warfare)
Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Jerusalem,
Eastern Franks (no HRE yet at this time) all german territories exluding bohemia, brandenburg.
Franks (french) All french territories except brittany but including Aragon province.
Asturias (Spanish) Leon only
Navarrese (Aragon)
Pope Rome only
Kingdom of Italy (Italians) Genoa, Milan, Tuscany, Papal States, Venice.
Magyars (Hungarians) Hungary Carpathia
Khazars (Turks) Khazar

Independent states:
Corsica
Sardinia

Arab Emirates:
Melitene (lesser armenia)
Armenia (armenia)
Crete (use the sicilians as the Cretan factions, if u do;t know how to transform factions I will do it)
Arabia (strongly independent)

Surrounding kingdoms
Iberia (georgia)

Neutral condominum between Abassids and Byzantines:
Cyprus

Kata i emailed you, your units looked good

Yeah, basically i am in agrreance with most of what you said, we will tie all the elite units to constantinople, and the "basic units" anywhere, and with regional troops tied to region.

So the next question is what unit(s) do we (meaning you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif ) need to make and/or adjust?

I am planning on using LK's Menavatoi & Psiloi units, both were part of the Tagmata armies, psiloi representing the light javelin forces and Menavatoi an elite spear shock unit to counter Kata cavalry, as well as the standard byzantine units made by CA. You are already working on Klib & Skutatoi from what you emailed me.

Do we need additional muslim units for 863? I really think we need some slavic infantry, as well as maybe some Rus. I could use some of LKs other units to fill in the gaps.

The question is, how many, if any units do you feel like making? and secondly, which ones should we focus on?

I suggest we tie the "warrior saint" title to the reliquary or something? what should the title confer if anything?

your titles sound good, im gonna read a section o titles tonight, but what you stated sounds good to go.

Also, we may have more unit options with VI, looks like different unit looks may be available to us. This would be great to represent the western frank (barbarians).

My thoughts on troops

Polish retainers as Bulgarian boyars

I have made SLavic troops, use my croatian and serbian brigands they are both fast, aggressive armed with bows and an axe, croatians hide in open as ambush units.

Hungarians are mainly horse archers, should I make a new hungarian horse archer?
they have a bonus for horse archers trained in hungary.

leave the Arabs as they are but make give them higher valour, higher attack but poor defence, they need to be more fanatical than professionally disciplined. They are fast on foot since they are unencumbered with armour

any thoughts on treasury, to reflect each factions financial strenght I customised each factions treasury.
eg. Arabs tend to be more wealthy than Western factions.

Can I make changes to Islamic cavalry, since archery is dominant in Islamic warfare giving the Khwarazmian cavalry bows would give us challenging enemies. I am thinking of adding bows to other cavalry units in the Islamic line up except for the Almohads.

Western factions to recieve a boost in defence to balance increased Islamic attack and the Byzantines higher valour for their discipline. everyone takes that for granted.

So a few generalisations;

Western factions
higher defense
Islamic factions
higher attack and fanaticsm
byzantine
higher production cost
higher valour

yeah regarding your differences sounds good - i have already modded my units stats similar to what you have stated (my muslim forces attack is beefed up, etc)

ok regarding new units then, might i suggest the following:

1) a slavic infantry - no or light armor, javelins for ranged attack, and spears for melee, fast, good charge and attack, but no defense armor, and poor morale - maybe let these hide like the croat and serb units you have made.

2) a Hungarian Horse archer, with chain mail, bow and sabre/spear would be great if you could do that?

3) could you make an early Varangian Unit? these would represent the early Rus warrios used by the empire, but before they were "decked out" with the great armor and stats of the Varabgian guard, these coupled with normal vikings would represent the viking forces commonly serving the empire?

what about some basic Frankish troops for the east & west franks and kingdom of italy? or should we just use the generic fuedal units already available? or maybe we wait on these and adapt some VI units?

also, have you seen LK's menavatoi unit? could you do something like that or mod it? it would really be nice to give the Menavlatoi a heavy javelin like they did in life?

I dont know how much work is involved in making or modding existing units, so i dont wanna bog you down with alot of work - so tell me to shout up when you have heard enuff http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

For the Bulgarians and Hungarians I can use the Polish retainers, boyars, and lith cavalry - i can use most of the turk stuff for the Khazars

do you have MSN? perhaps we could get together and talk out some ideas and maybe if we can find the other 2 grecophiles we could form a big ole chat sometime?

yeah I got msn fuzzwuzznuzz@hotmail.com is the path to wisdom

herac and elwe get in here so we can get ur input.

Yo Galestrum have we agreed on the factions involved?????

I have compiled a list of units involved in this mod
If you adding more or are suggesting another tweak then copy and paste the existing list and write in the new entries as well as adding (proposed unit) beside it.

legend D = done I = in the making

Units tweaked :
Kataphraktoi (added bow) D
Khwarazmian Cavalry (added bow and axe) D
Byzantine Cavalry (added lance) D
Polish Retainer now a Bulgar Boyar D

New units made from scratch:
Klibanophori D
Magyar Horse Archers I
Slav light skirmishers I
Croatian Brigands D
Skutatoi D
Norman knight (proposed) no status
Arab corsair (proposed) no status

Units added to the Byzantines:
Turcoman Horsemen
Armenian Heavy Cavalry
Vikings

Units available
Urban Militia
Byzantine Infantry
Alan mercenary
Horse Archers
Spearmen
Naptha Throwers


Now we can keep up to date with unit changes, proposals etc.

I prefer the Vikings as the pre - Varangian Guards, Varangians did not appear till Basil's time, the Vikigns are perfect candidates of Rus mercenaries. Rus Vikings also were a product of mixed Slav and Rus descent so we can make a case that Vikings can represent both Slav and Rus peoples.

I think the West has too many units already, as well their miliary systems were simple and uncomplicated.

Any chance of making the Danes a pagan and searaiding people, man if I was playing the Danes I would love allthose longships to raid Western Europe. bring on the blood.

However since they did have a troop that threw axes called franciscas, I dunno if they still had in the 800's.
the files don;t allow me to make axe throwing troops, the image of a unit can be changed but it takes yonks and believe me yonks

I am in favour of making a Norman knight however with superior valour comapred to early royal knights

What do you think of an Arab Corsair, basically a light Arab cavalry with a lance, bow and excellent attack.
nah better not, too many Arab lightweights already.
Good for mountainous regions where their excellent horsemanship helps them in such terrain.

I am thinking of making a set of Heretics for the agents list:

Shia Imam
Nestorian priest
Monophysites Priest
Paulicians

can be built by muslims and christians alike to forment religious division in enemies territories hehe, now we have more agents to play with.

gimme a screenie of a menavlotoi and I'll see what I conjure up.

Hey Kata, Ive already started workin on the startpos. Here are the factions that I have decided upon, after doing a ton of research, although im still looking at possibly changing the timeline slightly, which may affect the addition/subtraction of a faction here and there.

Romans
Ommayad
Danish
Kingdom of Italy
East Franks
West Franks
Tulumids
Kievan Rus
Khazars
Pope
Bulgarian Khanate
Austurias
Raiding Arab Emirates
Magyars
Duchy of Croatia
Kingdom of Great Moravia

Now there may be some possible changes, I was thiking of making a "spanish marcher lord faction" which would include Austurias, Navarre, and Aragon. I did some cursory research, and most of it pointed that at this time these lands were somewhat uder the lordship of the Franks, but distinct enough to be there own kind of thing. So i could make a "marcher lord" faction OR Make Austurias one faction and give Navarre and Aragon to the West Franks.

Also if i go a lil bit in future time, say to the 880s, I can make Burgundy a faction - consisting of Burgundy & Provence.

I have adjusted every faction listed to their appropriate culture already & most of the Pagan factions were given the barbarian raider AI behavior, so there should be lots of rampaging hordes hopefully http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

I made a "generic" arab raiding emirate faction, for gameplay reasons, consisting of : Sicily, Crete, cyprus, armenia, lesser armenia, antioch, edessa, and parts of N Africa.

My reasoning for this faction, is that while they were all pretty much independent emirates, they had a similar goal, to raid and attack christian lands aggressively and were basically the front line of the war. Now if we had the ability to have more than 20 factions, Id have made more distinction, but being as i am limited, I have lumped them together. It does give the bonus of giving this faction some umph and should provide anyone taking them on some large degree of hardship http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif

I think the Arab Corsair sounds cool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Regarding the Norman Knight, I gave Feudal Knights +1 valour in Normandy already in my mods

Are the Slav light skirmishers my idea of slavic infantry with spears and javelins?

I think the new agents sound good, i didnt know you could make new ones good deal http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

I think we should make some new Byzantine agent units that have some ability to help make up for the lack of jihad and crusade.

Also, with VI i get the feeling we will be able to create new untis not createable now, and can add some of the VI units to this mod.

Id like to bascially get the Beta of this done soon as we can, and then with LKs new units, your new units, and the possibility of VI, we can do a very good series of various Dark Ages campaigns http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Im also working on a crusader on updating the crusader11 file, as soon as you link me to your unit mods, and i can d/l them, ill update my crusader11 and then send it to you along with my other files and we can start testing it out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

How do i make a screenie? hehe *blush*

when you tell me, ill take one, with some descriptions, and ill also take a screenie of the campaign screen for you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

I am in utter awe of you two. Please keep working. So far what you have said seems to be very historically accurate and I don't feel I can legitimately challenge you on any one issue.

I agree with Heraclius... your efforts have left me dumbfounded Unfortunately, I cannot add to the secifics of late Roman military units, as I am yet to find a book that gives any details of the exact compositions of their military makeup http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/frown.gif. The books I've read so far only deal with the general history (Norwich) or the tactics used. Still searching for a good book on the actual make-up of their military.

Everything is looking awesome, though Keep up the good work, I can't wait to play

Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/wacko.gif

hey u guys want to be guinea pigs, i will release mods quite regularly for this campaign mod, send me ur e- mail and you'll get a nice surprise. no not the latest kataphraktoi virus but 3 new units, thats right 3 NEW untis.

Magyar Cavalry:
Magyar elite mounted unit armoured in mail, carries a lance, sword and bow, fast as well.

Though I got to warn you it has the same stats as the Boyar, i have not changed it yet, so I expect u guys to change it and see what u think are good stats for it ok????

Arab Corsair (Warband)
These fellas are exclusive to the Arab Emirates, basically they are lightly armoured raiders with only a sword and shield but have a ferocious attack, plus they are fanatical as well, any armoured troop can expect a real fight.

note: sword only appears when charging and fighting, we can pretend the corsair unsheaths his sword for the real fight http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif

Patriarch(demo)
It works, I made a new agent, the Patriarch has far ranging abilities to covnert people to orthodoxy and improve zeal for whatever benefit the Byzantines might gget from it....anyway the appearance of the Patriarch in the campaign map is only a beta, in the MTW files there are agents which haven;t been used, so I will use one of their appearances for the Patriarch.

I've PM'd you, Kataphraktoi.. I'll be a guinea-pig http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

Cheers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/wacko.gif

I tried to PM you, kat, but it said that your messenger was full and unable to recieve new messages. I will periodically try to get it through though. Yes I would be willing to be your guinea pig although I do have one question I asked in the PM

*** UPDATE ***

Ok fellas, so far i Have made the varius factions playable & assigned the factions the provinces they will have and have basically polished off the Roman starting position.

I have also, to the best of my ability changed the names of certain factions to historical names, for instance, it would be too fun playing Enrico the Qaghan of Khazaria http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif so i have been changing the names of the factions, when needed and to the best of my ability.

I will be real busy with work and school the next (2) weeks so you may not see me, but i will work on this whenever i get some spare time. The camp map looks really cool as does the various "new factions".

Additionally, MTW VI will be coming out in about a month, so that is when i hope to launch this new mod, when VI comes out, i hope to add some of the units etc from VI into this mod as they would be great, but until then ill have to wait and see.

Here are the Factions in this mod based in the year 889 AD

Romans
Qaghanate of Khazaria
Kievan Rus
Qaghanate of Bulgaria
Pecenegs
Agarenes (roman word for muslim arabs - this faction represents the many smaller arab emirates based in asia minor, and the Med islands)
Magyars
Kingdom of Great Moravia
Duchy of Croatia
Fatamid/Tulunids (Egypt)
Omayyads (Moors)
Kingdom of Italy
Kingdom of Burgundy
Kingdom of Germany
Kingdom of France
The Danes
The English
The Austurians (Spanish Leon)
The Spanish March (Navare and Aragon)
Pope

Rampaging pagans galore the progony of Charlemagne, vikings, Steppe warriors and fanatical arab raiding emirates. Should be lots of fun.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Yo Galestrum

Lets update the units that people have to install top play this game:

Magyar Cavalry
Patriarch
Arab Corsair
Skutatoi
Klibanophori

please up to this list Galestrum so I know what I have install to play the campaign1

Pecenegs do they need a new unit? the Elite Pidgeonegg horse archers looks like a winner.

over the next few days I will upload existing units that have been revamped.

they locked my "herac and elwe are getting married" post, why????

I still have to make a Slav light infantry.

You guys will dig the Tagmata system in this mod, it will force you to choose where to send your elite forces, east or west, of it doesn;t then well I'll jus try and it harder????

I experimented with the Tagmata system, i restricted the top elite units to production in only Nicaea and Constantinople, I restricted the production of byz inf and skutatoi to asia minor provinces.

I haven't gotten deep into the campaign yet but I did have to make some choices whether to bolster the eastern frontier against the intact and looming armies of the Turds and Eggheadians, while the balkans are in rebel hands.

Meanwhile the Golden hordees are camped outside of Crimea.
yay

For some reason I doubled the cost to train and maintain the elite troops, it is pinching my treasury but thats the way the byz treasury works for according to historians, the byzantine army was the highest and best paid army in the world. so I gotta keep it real and keep it expensive.

You will need the community/LK unit pack ss Req to the community thread here in the dungeon

AND

any units that you make for the mod Kata.

A noble elite Peceneg unit would be good. They would be similar to boyars - call them Patzinak Nobles AND/OR make a generic RoyalSteppeCavalry unit for the steppe faction leader types. (Patzinak is what the Byz called the Pecenegs).

I'll prby be using Boyars for the Magyar and Moravian royal units.

We also need your serbian and croatian skirmisher units Kata.

I am giving the Khazars the Kwarziman as their Royal Unit, based on history.

So far I am going to limit all Tagmata units being prduced in COnstantinople only>

Are we using 69 units from LK

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh installation hell.

Anyway are we really using all 69 units????

fuzzwuzznuzz@hotmail.com for all enquiries heracliusio

gimme ur e-mail and I will chuck in some nice surprises.

I would like to contribute some points if I may.

Warren Treadgold in The Byzantine Revival 780-842 argues that after the invasion of 838 led by the Caliph Mu'tasim, Emperor Theophilos initiated some reforms to improve the performance of the Byzantine army:

1. The soldiers pay was improved from six to twelve nomisma. Treadgold speculates this enabled theme soldiers to buy better arms and equipment.

2. The Persian company of Khurramites was incorporated into the regular structure of the Themes, raising their offensive capability by the addition of experience cavalry.

3. The Bandon led by a count, which had previously been a battlefield formation, was turned into a territorial division. Treadgold also stated this enabled the Count to call up and drill the troops more often. Previously the soldiers had been divided amongst the themes by the turma, which is a thousand men. The new mode of organisation based around the Bandon allowed troops to be controled and summoned concentrated more effectively, resulting in an improvement in their fighting ability and discipline.

4. Frontier commands called Cleisura where also formed, which shielded vulnerable parts of the border, but were not yet full-fledged themes.

If you wish to take this into account, perhaps have the scenario extend to 842 rather then 700.

Here is a also a summary of ranks in the Thracesian theme circa 842

Strategos

Turmarch

Drungary

Counts

Centarch

Decarch

ordinary soldier

hey swamp thing, thank you for the info and the source http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif

Originally the mod was going to start in 863, however i chse 889 for many reasons.

1) moving the start date 863 or 842 would eliminate the following factions : The duchy of croatia, burgundy, magyars, pecenegs, Rus, & the English, as these factions were either non existant at the time, OR were insignificant OR off map at the time. Since I cannot make factions appear at a designated time like the mongolds etc, as seen in the normal game of MTW, I figured it would be better to allow more factions for the community. Ive already maxed out the factions and i bet someone will go "hey dumbie, what about the xyz faction" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif

2) Based on the book The Making of Byzantium 600-1025by M. Whittow, The Byzantine Empire was on basically a defensive onlymilitary posture for quite sometime. That all changed when the Asia Minor Emirates based in Melitene and the their allies suffered (2) devastating defeats within a few weeks. These events marked the beginning of 100 year era of expansion for the empire & also witnessed the transformation of the army, going from a defensive Theme based Army to an offensive Tagmata based army.

So i chose 889 to include more factions & to capture the spirit of a rebirth in the empire, as well as the breaking up of the empire of charlemagne, and the emergence of powerful steppe powers (magyars, pecenegs, Rus)

BTW, if you have any suggestions for any unit types for the 889-1025 time period please feel free to describe them in asmuch detail as possible and give a source if possible so that we may also look at it and learn about it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

thanks for stopping by http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

*** A Question? ***

Historically, how relevant was the Pope from 889-1071 ish?

The reason I ask is there will be no Crusades during this time period, so that takes alot of Popes factional powers away, his only other purpose would be to Excommunicate and give occassional money. I dont know much about the Pope in this time, other than the great schism and what not. Was he excommunicating faction leaders alot at this time, etc?

If not, would you all rather see a Kingdom of Britain Faction (Brittany) in place of the Pope?

The Pope was quite powerful in this time period I believe. After all he crowned Charlemagne, helped destroy the Lombards, ruled a swath of Central Italy called the Papal States, battled the incoming Normans, excommunicated many Byzantine Emperor's and Patriarchs of Consantinople, sent out priests to convert the various pagan "barbarians (as did the Patriarch), was kidnapped by a Byzantine Empire (admitedly before this time period) etc, etc. I would definitely rather have the Pope than a Breton kingdom.

Especially as a single Breton kingdom really isn't entirely accurate for that time peroid...

Cheers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/wacko.gif

A breton kingdom would let a player have more opportunities for glory.

But then again the Pope as powerufl as he was is still libale to become a plaything of any major power who could influence the election of a Pope.

keep in mind the Papacy always respawns very quickly and consistently, so if you made it a bretonian kingdom it would throw the Isle into choas again.

And besides, I am going to make an agent that can be produced by the Germans, I call him the Pope

Yessir I was looking in the MTW files and came across some agents that never made it into the game, with these spare files I can bring in a new agent with a never before seen look unless u r a CA fella.

The Pope acts as a Grand Inquisitor stamping his authority in Catholic lands and also useful as a pwan of GERMAN politics.

Whats the verdict.

DO we have a Pope agent or not?

I meant a Breton Kingdom the province of Brittany there was such a kingdom

as far as england King Alfred the Great united wessex and mercia and became the first King of england worthy of the name

I'd say no pope agent for the Germans. Instead I'd add some kind of intrigue-specialty Byzantine agent that could really show their true diplomatic skill and finesse. I don't have any specifics in mind though. Maybe a super spy or diplomat, a ravishing very marriable daughter (I can never get my princesses married), advanced assasin; I don't know, I'll trust you three to come up with a good idea and just wait to play the mod. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

ok
now, add an advanced assassin PLEASE

kat, I'm very sorry but I'm not sure if I'll have time to be your "guinea pig", I've been very busy lately and things just seem to keep getting more hectic. I'd be glad to comment on historical stuff but I'm just not sure I'll have enough time to effectively check and test a mod right now. I'm sorry, I know you'll just have to make do with old Elwe now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif, but my hands are tied. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/mecry.gif

I scrapped the Pope pawn I have the files all ready and now only a small tweak will suffice for a monk assassin.

Monk assassins can assasinate anyone but like an assassin can get caught and executed for his vile acts.

These monkies can be trained by Byzantines, they spread relgion and kill as well, wow what a difference

They are of course advantageous on home ground, when in foriegn territory their orthodox religion and nssty habit of killing people make them a villainous pest to be exterminated.

so hows this then???

Originally it was going to be a Cathar priest.

murderous monks? I'd go with silver tongued diplomats but killing someone with an orthodox monk would be kind of cool.

indeed a diplomatic monk and/or

a diplomat/assassin or diplomat/spy would be very roman http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif

***edit***

A monk that can convert and cause unrest would be great

A diplomat that can bribe, make treaties, yet have the functions of a spy would be great (cause unrest, spy, see vices, open castle doors) would be ideal

***UPDATE***

All right, I have assigned all the factions that I have mentioned, I kept the pope rather than add the Kingdom of Britain (Brittany).

Province ownership has been completed.

Provnce resources, culture, and buildings have been completed, although i will still probably fine tune some buildings in a few provinces but it is for all intents completed.

Appropriate names have been giving to all the factions except the Bulgarians - I will look up some Bulgar names in my book and perhaps the internet, shouldnt be too big a deal, all the other factions have pretty much appropriate names.

Regarding titles, some factions I have no idea what their titles are, and some may be different in 889 than they were for the normal MTW game. If anyone feels they know more appropriate titles for the Pecenegs khazars, bulgarians, magyars etc feel free to post them here, what they should take the place of, and cite any sources if you can http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif

Up next i need to go into the crusader file and adjust units, add units, and get rid of or mod units. After that, I can finish troop deployments and the mod should be ready for a rough test.

***Kata***

So far I have the following units from you: Klibaraphoi (sp), Magyar Cavalry, Arab Corsairs, and the Patriarch agent.

I need the following units from you before i can complete my crusader file and startpos for testing :

Slavic Infantry (fast, can hide, javelins good ag armor, shield, little to no armor, spears)

Ghazi Cavalry (or whatever we are gonna call them, used by the raiding emirates, fanatical, etc)

Peceneg (Patzinak Roman Name for Pecenegs) Elite/Noble/Royal cavalry (not 3 units just 1, i just listed ideas to call them), should be horse archers in mail, sabre, spear

Serbian/Croatian Archers/Skirmishers, I think you have already finished these but i dont know where to D/L these from, link me?

Magyar footsoldier armed with bow and sword, mail armor

Skutaktoi (sp?) i know you have completed but yet again i dont have it cant find it, can you link me?

Kataphraktoi (the unit not you the crazy modder http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif ) -you mentioned a mod of this unit that had a bow, lance etc, i dont have this yet, is it done? if so link me hehe

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]
Can I make changes to Islamic cavalry, since archery is dominant in Islamic warfare giving the Khwarazmian cavalry bows would give us challenging enemies. I am thinking of adding bows to other cavalry units in the Islamic line up except for the Almohads

Units tweaked :
Kataphraktoi (added bow) D
Khwarazmian Cavalry (added bow and axe) D
Byzantine Cavalry (added lance) D
Polish Retainer now a Bulgar Boyar D

New units made from scratch:
Klibanophori D
Magyar Horse Archers I
Slav light skirmishers I
Croatian Brigands D
Skutatoi D
Norman knight (proposed) no status
Arab corsair (proposed) no status

---

OK just to catch up too, I need your updated versions of Kataphraktoi,Kwarazmian, & Byz Cavalry.

I dont think you need to worry about a Norman Knight unit, i have already given F knights valour bonus in Normandy, plus at this time 889 AD The Norman Knight didnt really exist until later, at which time theyd just be higher valour normal knights UNLESS there was something historically different about norman Knights than normal knights that i am unaware of?

As far as the 69 unit community/LK mod, no we will not be using all of them.

Off the top of my head I used the following units from there.

Klivanarioi (basically your Klib, but i use these as the Royal Unit, they have bows, will compliment your Klib Unit)

BalticWarband Spearmen & Javelinman
Georgian Cavalry
Anatolian Highlanders
Phyrgia Psiloi
BulgarianHeavyCav
MagyarLightCav
Breton Javelinmen
WelshSpearmen
WelshLongspearmen
Irish Light Cavalry
Highland Cavalry
BonnachtSpearmen
Immortals (Roman Unit elite infantry "imperial guard")
Menavatoi Super Heavy Infantry of romans
Hoplite (spear version of byz infantry)
CumanArchars
CumanMercenaryCavalry
NubianJavelin
Trapezitoi

I'll sort out these links this weekend and hopefully have all of them sorted out.

here's an update:

Monk agent has been completed.

And I made another useful unit, its called the vassal,
in Byzantium's history they've often sponsored their enemies's internal rivals to fight their wars for them. If successful the vassal rules the territory as a vassal for the Byzantines, territroy acquired basically, they also get the income as a tribute.

I will post the links of the new units then the modded old units later.

mystery unit



mystery unit 2

mystery unit 3

mystery unit 4

mystery unit 5

If these mods goes goofy jus give us a buzz and I'll fix it.

I was occupied with new agents and haven't been able to make pechens and slavies but they're on their way. word out.

Super cool.

hey Kata http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

ill add these to my MTW and see how things are, and as soon as I have something resembling a finished/playable product ill send you the needed files, of course youll need to have the units from the 69 community pack installed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

good work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif

you two are gods. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif


PS-Galestrum, I believe it is spelled skutatoi. and what are klivanarioi?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ Mar. 26 2003,07:17)]Are we using 69 units from LK

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh installation hell.

Anyway are we really using all 69 units????

---

I'll make an install for the units if you want.
Lord Kas will be updating some of the units soon also
But you should make your own install really.

More so if you only intend to use only some of them.
If you wish we can make an install just for the ones you want also.Let me know if this would help or not.
regards

LK

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

*** UPDATE & ANSWERS ***

ok, well i have a basic working mod as of now. Lots of hair pulling and expletives were uttered, but now all that is needed is adding new units, placing tropp deployments and some tweaks to provincial buildings http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Once i have all the needed units tested, tweaked and finalized we shall see how it looks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

I am also thinking about adding the so called civil rights add ons for pagan and jewish agents and buildings. Khazar was a jewish nation, and many of the factions in this mod are pagan. Ive never tinkered with this, so ill probably kill myself in frustration, but what the heck, im a glutton for punishment http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Also, when VI comes out, that will allow for the "final version" of this mod. From what the expert modders out there surmise, we may have opportunites for new units/looks and perhaps buildings, etc, plus the option to change faction colours etc.

It would also be nice if the history buffs could find battle standards for the factions in this mod and we could add them, for a finer touch - thats all for now, im sure i forgot something and will post a reply in the next 60 seconds though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif

to Lk I am totally lost regarding zipping, uploading, downloading, posting, and auto installing and all that high tech jazz http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif perhaps Kata will know more than I. Once i Have something worth offering to the public ill contact you, if we cannot figure it out ourselves. thx for the offer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Hera sup there http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif The Kliv are another way of spelling Klib, they come from the 69 community unit mod. Historical references suggest that the Klib were heavy shock cavalry, but that one in five were archer cavalry. Well it just so happens that these (2) units are distinctive in archer and shock, the Kliv are archers and Kata's Klib are shock.

So, I made the Kliv the royal unit, that are archers, and Kata's Klib the shock Thus you will have the various regiments of the Tagmata represented by: the Klib, Kliv, Kata, and Byz Cav, along with the Immortals, Menavatoi & Varagians as the Tagmatic Infantry.

And Hera you are Greek you better know how to spell these guys correctly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif Of course in the Book by Bartusis, he said Byzantine Greek was very hard compared to the other forms, so ill let you slide this time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Guys I discovered some flaws in the mods:

Arab Corsairs is missing LBM file in the mtw/battle/uniticons folder. I used the hashashin lbm file in the same folder so just copy the it in the same folder and rename it "arabcorsairs"

The vassal mod does not, work no matter what I did it did not work.

good news is that ghazicav and pecheneghorsearcher is ready to download yay.

Galestrum scream expletive and rip ur hair as much as can cos that means a good mod campaign. for the glory of byzantium

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

pechies

slavinfantiles

ghazzo's horsies

Galesstrum I leave it up you to change their stats once again, you decide what stats are appropiate for the mod.

Since u have the know how and who's the factions I leave it ur discretion.

its very unfortunate about the vassal it would have been a good unit after all

I still have a few units on the board:

Saint as an agent. just another big name preacher for the byzantines, there were a couple of living saints for the Byzantines and some dead ones, I 'm thinking of a warrior saint unit, he doesn;t kill but he's still one mean preacher..........or maybe another.

Warrior Saint unit...but then again with all the Tagmatic cavalry thats going around I think it has no place.

Kliv archers
Klib shock absorbers
katas archers and shockers
byz cavalry

thats what I call offensive units - wow so many elite units

I hope Galestrum makes them expensive to train and build cause they're really worth their weight in armour. i could certainly use a fiscal challenge as well as a military one.

How bout a few new buildings???
Byzantine loved buildings churches and buildings, any Emperor worth his salt will try to immortalise his name with buildings:

in the works are:(mweaNING THINKING OF)
THE GREAT PALACE
SAINT ANASTASIOS MONASTERY
SAINT DEMETRIOS CATHEDRAL
VIRGIN HODGETRIA CHURCH
NEA CHURCH

they are nothing new but for any player who would like to fill up his capital with nice buildings that generate gold

I am thinking of making a muslim and catholic equivalent set as well, when I of course have the time off.

they are meant to be unique buildings built in one place and for anyone who captures the province they can destroy it for money money money, any pagan faCTION woudl like that.

YO LORD KRAZY I appreciate your input in this thread could u link me your 69 unit community mod, it is time I started to install these fellas.

Yo Galestrum want me to do the write up for the mod, the README of all READMES.

Man I cant wait to use the tagmatas against a sea of heathens.

I am starting arrange all my modded existing units, they should be available for download soon, I got work at uni so I don;t have that luxury. I will put of me new buildings mod, they can be added after the release of the mod, no need to budren the current mod.

Kudos Galestrum. Keep up the good work.

Heraclius - u have msn?
Elwe - u have msn?

Hey guys, as i said earlier im gonna be very busy this week, i have a paper due for university & a court case due within the week, so ill have no time for this, but after these are completed i should be able to have this done and available for testing soon.

Just wanted to let you know in case i dont have time to post this week. take care guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ Mar. 31 2003,10:26)]YO LORD KRAZY I appreciate your input in this thread could u link me your 69 unit community mod, it is time I started to install these fellas.

---

Sure no problem
here is the latest update.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ](kataphraktoi @ Mar. 26 2003,07:17)
Are we using 69 units from LK

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh installation hell.

---

Was this intuition or a guess.

You should install it before
making such statments really.
It does not encourage others to
try and based on your request
I can only assume you have not
tried it.So you can't honestly say
it's an installation hell if
you never installed it.

Gees they even get their retaliation in first these days
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif

So install it first and then criticize it.
Like eveyone else http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/rolleyes.gif


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif
LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Galestrum @ Mar. 31 2003,18:33)]i have a paper due for university & a court case due within the week,

---

Gee I hope they don't send you to prison http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

He only wanted to make a mod.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

lol I am not the bad guy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Lord Krazy don;t take it personally, I wasn't criticising the mod for itself but rather the prospect of 69 units, it was a matter of quantitive considerations rather than the integrity of your mod.

Understand me or what?

If you took it seriously then you are mistaken for taking it as such, it was jest rather than out of any spite or cupidity towards your unit mod.

Me take things serious, are you serious? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

I just don't like people being funnier than me OK

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif

So did you try it?
Can you use it, or part of it?
Seen as you don't want the gun guys.

A new prod has been provided by
Lord Kasskop which will be added
Tomorrow.

regards,

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

sorry kat, I don't have MSN.

Yo LK
seems u have exceeded ur bandwidth limit so i couldn;t get the unit mod pack.

guess it wuz too popular.

Ok u r funny.

Hmm LK what do you think of the Mongol Heavy Cavalry from Shogun, do you think its better than the Golden Horde heavy Cav???

I'm thinking of modding it into MTW, u done it yet???
If you have wdone it what how does the Mongol Heavy Cav play out? good bad???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ April 02 2003,22:54)]

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Yo LK
seems u have exceeded ur bandwidth limit so i couldn;t get the unit mod pack.

guess it wuz too popular.

---

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif More suckers than I tought http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif

What's wrong with you people get a life http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I'm thinking of modding it into MTW, u done it yet???

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No sorry.


LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]seems u have exceeded ur bandwidth limit

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It seems to be back on line again.
I hope I have enough this time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/rolleyes.gif

LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHH

i CHECKED thru the unit mods and found all kinds of errors old and new, seems I didn;t update the files when i completed the mod for MTW

This week and next I will be busy fixing this up and releasing it as complete packagae next to LORD KRAZY's most sublime unit mod pack.

Sorry all ye fellas.

Hows the it going Galestrum with the mod, is Byzantium ready to kick some emirates?

Welcome to the realities of modding this
element of mtw. The fact you see the errors
means you know what you are doing.
The errors are all part of putting a mod like this
togeather.It's not a fault it's a human condition. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif
Been there, done that , doing it again. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif


LK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/smokin.gif

Yeah I had to reinstall MTW and cleaned out the trash files.
I hope to reinstall in the future again hehe

I tried the Ghazi Cavalry mod this week in a Turkish, very very nice indeed.....their greatest asset is the first charge into enemy ranks, melee not their best, their speed however is another great asset.

I used the Ghazi Cavalry to sweep behind enemy lines and take out annoying archers as well as enemy heavy cavalry and infantry. Good for charging behind elite units.

Takes few casualties despite their low armour, poor defence and poor melee, cheap to train. Excellent morale though meaning they will give a good account of themselves under a low ranking general.

Will try out Magyar Cavalry soon

what are they armed with?

These Ghazis are armed with a spear and a shield but their fanaticsm is their most important weapon, they take quite a beating and can stand their ground against heavier opponents. Should I make them faster???

A whole army of these can beat thw Golden Horde I haven't done that yet cos my frontiers are all active hotspots of combat against the Almohads and Germans.

I am thinking of leaving out the Arab Corsairs from the mod, the GHAZI cavalry is meant to be that corsair unit.

I am scrapping the Patriarch unit and leaving the Monk assassin.

Kataphractoi and Co, this mod sounds really great, keep it up

I was just thinking, if you do plan to include the Arabic corsair unit, why not make it region specific, namely Crete and Sicily, but it can only be built by Islamic civilisations who occupy those territories.

Crete and Sicily were both conquered by the Muslims in the 9th century.

Sicily was taken by the Aghlabids of North Africa when the Caliph sent an expedition to aid a rebelling Byzantine officer in 827, led by Asad Ibn al-Furat.

Crete was conquered by a gang of freebooters from al-Andalus, led by Abu Hafs around the same period, and soon made the Aegean a dangerous region for Byzantine raiders (Though a Byzantine army wiped out a substantial force of Cretan Arabs when they landed in the Thracesian theme in 841 or 842).

Cheers

Hi there Kataphraktoi,

I myself have started to mod MTW and the first lot I modded were the Byzantines

I downloaded the Klib and Skutatoi units from the orgs downloads. Not sure if they were yours.

After just a glance I found both units overpowered by far. so I changed them.

Klib for now are Kata with +1 Melee +1 Def.

Skutatoi are 5/1/2/3 with proper spears (hence 5/2/4/3 + shields) when holding formation. I gave them 3 Javelins as well. for 350 points for a unit of 60 they are expensive but good unit. they are of course disicplined with 2 morale.

I also changed the Byz. Cav charge stat to 4 (considering 6) since they were supposed to have a lance as well.

My brother tested this starting late period on Hard level and won convincingly. Klib's helped him alot as did skutatoi.

Now here is my problem....

I'm trying to Mod the Byzantines to be as realistic, historical and balanced as possible. I've done alot of internet research which after many hours in not even as informative as a basic search in the ORG.

Basically I am in a total state of confusion as to how the core byzantine army was composed POST Manzikert. I wanted to gauge the possibilities of retaining an effective native army if the Byzantines reconqered regions such as Anatolia.

questions as of yet unsolved are those such as...were Skutatoi or equivalents used in any significant numbers post Manzikert? What where the restrictions? what of Kavallarioi (i.e Byz Cav) or Kata's (I've read descriptions of them being mace wielding).

After the Varangians who guarded the Emperor? was there an elite NATIVE footman unit at all towards the end of the Byzantine empire (i.e late period?)

There are so many questions I have about the Byzantine military just prior to and more importantly...after Manzikert. I'm not interested in mercenaries. I'm talking proper Imperial troops.

Anyway here are my Idea's.

Skutatoi/Kontaratoi- as mentioned above 5/1/2/3 morale 2, spears, 2 Jav- 60.

Produced in Anatolia ONLY. Requires SPEARMAKER2, ARMOURER1, ORTHODOX CHURCH.

This represents the supposed fact that Anatolia was the major recruiting ground for native troops in the empire. I know that in the Late period it is rebel and decsolate so the byzantines would have to re-establish the infrustracture and occupy the place for sometime (by sheer fact of having to build all these buildings&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif for it to be ruly re-integrated into the empire.

Byz Cav- Change Charge from 2....to perhaps 4-6. Represents the fact they had lances. Not sure where to restrict building or whether to add requirements.

Kataphraktoi- almost the same...but with MACES. AP but charge of only 4.

Was thinking of early, high late like other royal units. Early as above with maybe 4 def, 6 arm, then mid 5 -7 then late with 4 attack. Up speed alittle but not as much as other knights.

Add menavlion Skutatoi/Kontaratoi much like Militia Sgt but Disciplined and +1 Melee and Defence vs. Cav. Same restrictions as standard Skutatoi/Kontaratoi but repalce Spearmaker with SWORDMAKER2.

Aside from the idea's I have little else. Trepizondi Cavalry much like jinettes would be cool as would Trep. archers with composite bows.

anyway must go now, but will post again. till then please reply on your thoughts and any help you can offer

Thanks Kata and everyone else

Mike

Kurnous, they were my Klib and Skut mods.

Klibs overpowered?

not when they cost 1300 florins a year, take 2 years to train and can only be trained in Nicaea, they require:
A master armourer
A master horse breeder
A royal palace

sure they match the later western knights but you have to remember what the Klibanophoris are: they are elite tagmatic cavalry who pound for pound are much more expensive than the western knights and quite possibly better. In the MTW hand book the Kataphraktoi was the heaviest cavalry known, since the Klibanophori was in all essential character a super - Kataphraktoi imagine how much more heavily armoured they were.
I realise the immense power that comes with the Klibanophori but I also made sure it had its weaknesses as well such as for instance its slowness, they are also vulnerable to arrows in a given situation, I have reduced their unit size to 30. Plus they suck in desert warfare, ive had alan mercenary cavalry crush and rout a whole unit of klibanophoroi.

I think u installed the first version of the Klibanophori and hence it was overpowered with no justification, the latest version however makes sure that its power is justified by historical and practical function with several balances.

Klibs carried a kontos and a mace, clearly they were expected to be troop crushers and melee specialists

Klibs were the actually the only Byzantine cavalry to have mounts with complete armour, Kataphraktois with horses with frontal armour or no armour.

Since then I have toned down the klibs power taking into consideration its increased power under 8 star byzantine generals woohooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo and remember it is not invincible even stinky light cavalry can destroy them.

They are the most expensive unit in the game and also a handicap to the economy, it is at the expense of a bigger army that I keep a smaller one with elite units.

U want to know bout the Byzantine army after manizkert?

Native troops after Manizkert was relatively small, demoralised and of poor quality, mercenaries were the majority of the army.

Turkish soldiers made a considerable proportion of the armt as light cavalry, while heavy cavalry thru pronoia allagion or hiring norman or frankish cavalry. There was a trend in unarmoured infantry because the money for armour was simply not there.

Elite troops after the Varangians consisted of foreign troops for showcase and ceremonial purposes, although there is evidence Vardariot Turkish Christians and Cretan archers were hired as these "elite" bodyguards.

Cumans and Pechenegs were also hired in considerable numbers, the latter more so after the battle iof Levunium.

Byzantine light cavalry was the TRAPEZITOI

Keep it simple because the Byzantine army had no space for anything fancy:

BYZANTINE COMPOSITION:
Turkish light cavalry
Western Heavy Cavalry
Unarmoured infantry
Trapezitoi light cavalry with javelins
Varangian Guard (Varangian Guards were abolished in 1204)
Pechenegs



Just remember since Byzantium survived after Manizkert it can be assumed that it could recover its original strength as it stabilised itself.

The Klibanophori disappeared after Manizkert........