"Cool" historic german unit..

As CA seems to try to get a good deal of distinct units per faction I further intensified my research. I have already posted a good deal in the .com forum trying to influence with Psycho the decisions of CA...


To come to the point:

Scanning through the rich Scandinavian rock-carvings I finally found the oldest know drawing of the throwing Axe later made famous by the Franks as Franciska.

I seemed to be the natural evolution of the great variety of wooden "Boomerangs" both found in the earth and shown in the art.

The axeblade is very similar to the Franciska with a strongly S-curved handle which finishes in a round counterweight. This tool looks by all meaning cool and deadly, and it seems that it was at least used in central Scandinavia by their (Germanic) farmers and Warriors in the RTW timeframe.

Now a axethrowing German unit with this unique weapon would both be cool and historical accurate, making all of us happy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Is there any evidence that the weapon was used in large numbers on the battlefield?

Just curious, as it seems more suited for hunting or one-on-one combat. I just can't imagine hundreds of warriors throwing axes on the battlefield.

Well Longshanks that was exactly what the Franks did before they became the French.

I would absolutely LOVE to see francisca-tossing franks in RTW, but I think the time period would be slightly off. Not because the weapon couldn't have been around then-- as noted, there are earlier analogues-- but unless I am mistaken, the Franks as a distinct people don't appear in the historical record, I believe, until the time of Tacitus at the earliest (which would put them outside the frame of RTW). Now, I could be wrong...

But the Franks would be PERFECT for the expansion pack, which I hope will be the barbarian invasions.

Yes, they are rather far outside the game as it is now, but I was just proving a point.

Trust me, I know that the Franks are out of the timeframe, but this rockcarvings date back even before the RTW periods starts...

That's what I tried to point out. I try to post as early as possible a pic of it out of the book;
Sorry by the way that didn't showed you the Nuragic Helms with their huge horns; Sourly I was not able to get this specific book as I changed the UNI.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/frown.gif

As I said it is a neat unique design very similar to the Francisca with a S-Handle and a counterweight. This baby crys "Throw me" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif


And yes I was used to deliver a massive shock to a well-ordered enemy in close orders, but for more pratical info read this:

http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.l...ons/franc.html

Good reading http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif

I don't claim to know anything about Oleand's research, but what he was saying is that this was pre-Franks, proto-francisca, and could conceivably fit into the RTW timeframe and be accurate. Very cool idea. I'd imagine these Germanics would have a back-up short sword.

I'd be all for this, even if it they went with the Franks themselves. I understand RTW is a bit early for them, but the the Egypt chariot is 1000 years late. At least they are a "real" people :)

This proto-Fransciska was surly a nice answers against the close formations of enemy "Ger-mans", but for more info about their possible use use the link...


Yeah I'm too all for it, as the Scandinavians were part of the Germanic tribes. As I said I will try all I can to get this pic as fast up as I can, to share this new insight in Germanic warfare...

Well, if they were proto-Franks or not I don't know, but I know one thing, it is quite far from mid-Sweden to Franconia (yes that is the homeland of the Franks, between the rivers Sahle and Elbe, thus the Salic Law in medieval France) in Germany. Of course at this time the Germanians might not have inhabited Franconia, but there might have been Celts instead. I can only conclude that the Franks were included in the Gothic exodus from Sweden along with the Danes, but where the Goths went southeast from their initial landings in Poland, the Franks went southwest, and stayed there for some time like the Goths did in the east.

The weakness with this theory is that the Franks created a number of laws, the Salic ones, while the Goths didn't. At least we haven't heard of special laws from the Visigothic kingdom in Spain or the Ostrogothic kingdom in Italy.
Apparently the Franks stayed longer in Franconia than the Goths did in the east...

Btw, Oleander, it would be more than just great if you could get hold of that picture. It would answer a thing or two about the Bull Warrior (though we shouldn't expect that the hardline Bull Warrior haters will turn).
Are you sure it was a battlehelm, and not just a ceremonial one?

Kraxis, I will try. But the helm is just part of some minature warriors, although most of their equipment has been proven by findings... In any way it is not direct proof, but more of an new insight...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ May 05 2004,14:38)]Kraxis, I will try. But the helm is just part of some minature warriors, although most of their equipment has been proven by findings... In any way it is not direct proof, but more of an new insight...

---

Hmm... ok, I can see now that it won't exactly turn any oppinions. But I still think something to back it up would be important.

Back on topic.
I would love to see an axethrower unit of some sort. Like the Barbarian Spearman Warband, just with swords and Franciscas (and German only).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I just can't imagine hundreds of warriors throwing axes on the battlefield. - Longshanks

---

Oh I can http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Interesting stuff OA It'd be great to a have a unit of Germans like this in RTW but I'd prefer to see them as an end game / elite sort of unit rather than a standard type.

Keep up the good work mate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (PSYCHO @ May 06 2004,05:54)]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I just can't imagine hundreds of warriors throwing axes on the battlefield. - Longshanks

---

Oh I can http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Interesting stuff OA It'd be great to a have a unit of Germans like this in RTW but I'd prefer to see them as an end game / elite sort of unit rather than a standard type.

Keep up the good work mate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

---

Nah, I can easily see them as some sort of Kerns, or perhaps a little better. Like a normal tribal unit with another function, of course this would make them better and would need to be higher up the techtree.

Thanks guys for the support, today I will step into the UB again and lend it to scan the pic... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif

When you read through the comment of this guy how tried an Francisca you notice the word bounce.

Now after having seen the pic of this axe and having a good deal of experience in throwing/shoothing all kinds of stuff - there you see the eternal child http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-blush.gif - I can say that I have to agree with the conclusion of this guy.

Must be difficult to stop dozens of heavy hurling thingies flying in crazy curves through the air, bouncing randomly from shields, bodys and the ground http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

You could give this missile a special feature, here are some possibilites:

- disrupts the enemy formations ( there is a defined possibility that a ordered formation like a phalanx or a Roman line gets "disordered" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...nquisitive.gif )

- "negates" enemy shields ( the missile is not/partly affected by the shields of the enemy due to it's particular nature)

- causes a heavier loss of the enemy moral than other missiles (poor Roman sees many UFO coming straight toward him http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif )


About the standard/elite type. I can see this throwing axe used by

a) linetroops in the phalanx with spear, shield, helm
b) shocktroops with a small shield and a normal axe/sword (spear would be more usual, but doesn't seem to fit in CA's vision)

Sorry, but how do I upload a pic in the .psd format http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-blush.gif

I converted it now into the .gif, but what now..

Thanks Tricky Lady, I will try

I found it in the book:
Berge&Boote by Dietrich Evers (Beier&Beran, 2001)

I think you better convert it to a JPEG or TIFF format with Photoshop...

Sorry is somebody out there able to host this pic?

Thanks for your help

Feel free to send it to me, I'll host it.
You can find my email address in my profile.

Faithfully waiting for it to show up here.~http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ht_jumping.gif

Oleander Ardens, you can send me the PSD file. I'll convert it to a JPEG and host it.

Waiting for the file...

I just sent you an e-mail, Tricky Lady http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Btw in the meantime I will try to put this Throwing axe in a wider historical and technical context.

A polish researcher, P. Valde-Nowak found recently a straight-flying Boomerang dating back from 18300 BC. in a cave called NOWA BIALA in the western Carpats.

It is carved out of a mammunt's tooth and has a almost plain and a convex surface - the same principle we use nowadays to let tons of steel fly.

It is almost 70cm long and weights 850gr and reconstructions have shown that is well suited for an aimed throw...


Given the fact that humans did already combine stone, bone, wood and other materials like for spears it is easy to imagine that they used heavier and sharper materials to increase the lethality of their tools.

The specially designed throwing Axe is the ultimate development for warfare in this steady research...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ May 05 2004,11:15)]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] Scanning through the rich Scandinavian rock-carvings I finally found the oldest know drawing of the throwing Axe later made famous by the Franks as Franciska.

---

---

got any image links?

I had read this article on thebFrancisca before and I too find it convincing. The prominence of the weapon is explained by this theory.

Oleander, I'm sorry. I'm afraid your message didn't survive my spam filter... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...embarassed.gif
Could you resend the file, I'll host it asap when I receive it.

@Tricky Lady, could you PM me your e-mail, as the on-board e-mail doesn't give you the chance to attach files http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...gc-stunned.gif ..this is what I wrote to you and fell victim to your filter

Thanks

BTW: Here are some links for the Francisca;

Note that the handle is supposed to be straight, or slightly curved, while the handle in the carving has the shape of the lower part of the S and a wooden? counterwheight.

Not that such a strongly curved axe has a longer "deadly window" on impact as it allowed the axe blade to swing around some 20-30 degree more than one with a straight handle.

Plus I strongly suspect that strongly curved handle gave the missile more speed as one could transfer it's energy for a longer way, as the back of the blade could almost touch the lower back when swung back.

http://www.axtwerfen.de/Thr_A_Axe_D_ENGL.htm

http://www.axtwerfen.de/_20010102-1400_Seite143_.htm

Hope it made it this time past your spam filter, Tricky Lady http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/biggrin.gif

Yeah, this time the spam filter allowed your message. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-smile.gif

...and here's your picture (finally eh?)

http://home.scarlet.be/~cpel/MTW/Mis...er_picture.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/bigthumb.gif

Very interesting, and by the way that is not found in Sweden but in Denmark, near the middle of Jutland (the main part of Denmark), actually in a suburb to the second city, Århus.

The counterweight wouldn't be of wood, if it is in fact a counterweight. It could very well be a precaution against the grip slipping, which is quite more likely with such a bended handle. Imagine standing there with the axe all the way back for a throw, when you apply the force into he throw the grip might slip... not very healthy. So that might be the reason.
Further a counterweight would weaken the throw somewhat.

No it was found in central Scandinavia - Sweden; The text refers to the Boomerang above http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-blush.gif

I do however agree that the "counterweight" allows the thrower to get a better grip, and also eases the release.

An particular interesting detail is the shape of the upper handle, which long wooden extension above the blade should help fix the blade, so that it doesn't slip from the handle.
It helps also to reduce the stress on the rest of the handle when the Axe hits the target.

Thanks for hosting Tricky Lady

Some other considerations of mine;

Note that the blade itself is almost identical to the ones of known "Franciscas". The upper corner of the blade is swung upwards and particular strong, as it is designed to hit the target and to achieve maximum penetration.

The lower corner of the blade is also designed to penetrate armor/shields - the elegant form of the blade is designed to obtain the best performance for throwing.

But the back of the blade differs greatly from the Francisca, as they usually have a rather long neck to spread out the shock of the impact of a larger area...

About their power. Test have shown that they penetrated rather easily a 24mm thick plate of oak;

There are a group of complex, bendy, multi-bladed African and Polynesian throwing knives/axes, although sadly I cannot remember the name of the one I am thinking of. Anyway, they coimmonly have a short, knobbed, grip. I would not be surprised if the throwing style has the fingers sliding down the shaft while the knob rests in the palm.

My exact thoughts, Squippy; This could well have been a way to throw it.


Besides, what about this proto-Francisca as a weapon of a rider? Graves of Frankish mounted nobles contain both the Spatha and the Francisca among other weapons. Now the Francisca could have been also a symbol of Frankish identity, but be surly not useless thrown from a charging horse.

It is rather heavy and it's range and traveling speed would be greatly increased by the speed of the horse, if thrown on enemys in front of the rider or standing slightly sidewards. It is compact and can be easily be used from the horseback. Variants of it can also be used both for the melee and for ranged combat.

So a German cavalry unit from Scandinavia is easily imaginable with this Proto-Francisca.

That makes a fair amount of sense, but I'd see it rather as a specific design. That is, long, short, twwo-handed, and bearded axes are used elsewhere by the Germanic tribes for specific roles. So I'd kinda expect a rider to carry a specialist axe; there are a number of riders with axes on display in the Bayeaux tapestry as I recall, you could look at them. It would be wquite plausible for a high status warrior to be buried with a weapon that individual favoured, or one which was just part of the militaruy cult, without concluding it was used equally. Or, it may be that many of these men actually fought on foot, cavalry not yet being the dominant arm.

Heres something interesting I found:

LENOCH refers to two historical texts, mainly to the one by ISODORUS HISPALENSIS, the bishop of Sevilla of that time. He wrote in the 7th century in his "ORIGINES":

The terms in brackets refer to differing passages from the original text of "ISODORI". A possible translation of the text-here by Beate Rodenberg- is:

It was called the clava (stick) - of the same composition like the one Hercules had- , because it was fixed with two iron clubs on either side; it has the length of half a cubit.

This is the cateia (throwing club), which was called caia (club, cudgel) by Horaz. There is a kind of a Gallic missile consisting of very flexible (inert) material, which does not fly very long, when it is thrown because of its heavy weight, but arrives there nevertheless. It only can be broken with a lot of power. But if it is thrown by a master (its builder), it returns to the one who threw it. Vergil reminds us with the following words: " One used to fling throwing clubs similar to the habit of the Teutons". Since then both the Spanish and the Germanics call those "teutonas".

http://www.rediboom.com/englisch/geschich/#ozan

Very interesting;
Hm seems to me that they mingle different types of missile weapons.

The returning boomerang was fairly surly used by the Germanic tribes of Scandinavia, Denmark included, but not as a weapon of war. It's flight characteristics aren't suited for hunt or warfare, but they seemed to have played a important part of religion as a religious symbol.

Can't deal right now with the comment about the "iron clubs on either side"

Perhaps the second was a combination of a flexible staff of wood or of inter-twisted small branches of flexible wood and a stone tied together. This could be thrown like a stiffer sling bound together with the stone ~ similar to a single bola.

This "bola" than became intermingled with the returning boomerang.. strange sources.

Any ideas?

@Squippy: I think that if a rider wanted an Axe good for throwing he would pick up this proto-francisca or later on a francisca with a less curved handle.

Bearded axes were used by Germans, but we know little about their use in battle as far the RTW-period is concerned.

After having discussed the possibly use of this throwing axe in RTW I wonder if we have the possibility to see german archers with on of the classic germanic warbows: the longbow.

Thanks to great quantity of findings we are can doubtless state that the Germans used longbows in the RTW period.

But how can we imagine such an archer and what was his role in battle?

Any ideas?

Some more information about their possible use in battle:

The Throwing Axe or Francisca

Light throwing axes, traditionally identified as franciscae [5], the distinctive weapon of the Franks, are found in several pagan Anglo-Saxon burials (Pollington 1996, 126-128; Brooks 1999, 46-47). Two main forms can be distinguished: one with a convex upper surface and another type had an "S" shaped upper surface (Underwood 1999, 35-37). The Roman author Procopius, writing in the sixth century, recorded that the Franks "....at the agreed signal and since the first charge, threw all together their axes against the enemies....."( Contamine 1986, 248). Even if employed in hand-to-hand combat, it is to be considered as a throwing weapon that could also be used with success by the Anglo-Saxon people. Some trials showed that, whirling a 1.2 kilogram francisca on itself (the shaft 40 centimetres long, the axe 18 centimetres long), a warrior could hit his enemy being four metres away (single rotation), 8 metres away (double rotation) and 12 metres away (triple rotation). Its weight varied depending on the iron part, which would range from 300 to about 900 grams (Contamine 1986, 248-249). The Roman author Procopius, writing in the sixth century, describes the Franks and their use of the throwing axes:


"........Each man carried a sword and shield and an axe. Now the iron head of this weapon was thick and exceedingly sharp on both sides while the wooden handle was very short. And they are accustomed always to throw these axes at one signal in the first charge and thus shatter the shields of the enemy and kill the men......" (Underwood 1999, 35).

Source:
http://www.mun.ca/mst/heroicage/issues/6/devingo.html


From the same source we can also see that the Francisca or variants of it were also used fight in close combat. I don't think this applies the axe shown in the pic though..


The Byzantine scholar Agathias recorded their use by Frankish warriors at the battle of Casilinum in 554 describing how it was used during fighting:

"..... Angons are spears that are neither very short nor very long, but suitable for throwing, should it be necessary, as well as for engagement at close quarters. The greater part of it is covered all over with iron - and the same with the ferrule - so that very little of the shaft can be seen. At the tip round the head of the spear are curved barbs reaching downwards from the blade itself on both sides like curved hooks. Suppose a Frank throws his angon in an engagement. If the spear strikes a man anywhere the point will penetrate, and neither the wounded man nor anyone else can easily pull it out because the barbs which pierce the flesh hold it in and cause terrible pain, so that even if the enemy is not fatally hit, he still dies as a result. And if it sticks in the shield, it fixes in it at once and is carried around with it, the butt dragging on the ground. The man who has been hit cannot cut it off with his sword because of the iron which covers the shaft. When the Frank sees this he quickly treads on it with his foot, stepping on the ferrule and forcing the shield downwards so that the man's hand is loosened and his head and breast bared. Then, taking him unprotected, he kills him easily either cleaving his head with an axe or piercing his throat with another spear...."[4].