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This maybe a stupid question, but it popped into my head recently. Why were horses only used as cavalry as opposed to bulls. Arn't bulls far stronger and sturdier? It would probably take a lot to tame and train them, but I think they would be pretty powerful on the battlefield. Imagine a line of charging bulls comeing towards you... all with their horns down! Any historical or practical reasons why bulls were never used in battle?
I'm new here btw.
Well, I don't know much about livestock, so I'm basically guessing, but... bulls are:
A. Much wider in the shoulders and torso than a horse. This would make them much more uncomfortable to ride, as well as put pressure on "the boys" if you take my meaning.
B. Bulls are domesticated in a different manner than horses. I.e., a bull is either a gelding or a steer (balls or no balls), all they really think about is doin' the dirty , eating or sleeping. Horses on the other hand have been used in war and ridden by humans for thousands of years. Think about it.
Anyways, as this is a subject I'm totally unknowledgable about, please disregard my ramblings. I'm pretty sure there are some legitimate reasons to use a horse over a bull (i.e. speed or whatever), because someone had to have had this idea before.
C. Have you ever seen more than one bull per field? There's a reason for that, you know. Trying to form a unit of them would be impossible, they'd kill each other and their riders. Of course, you could give them the ol' snip-snip, but then they lose most if not all of their aggressiveness, and one of their 'advantages' over horses, in the original hypothesis.
Heh, true, but they could use individual phycho units. Get the craziest soldier, tie him to the biggest bull, give him a huge mace and enrage the bull. Then all you gotta do is point him in the right direction and he should cause havok ~D .Quote:
Originally Posted by McGowan
what about grizzly bear riders.
They were domesticated differently. One for food and to be subdued for their meat and one for transportation.
Yeah, or maybe wolf riders, ala Warcraft 1?
The very purpose of cav is to be fast and mobile. Some cav are just designed to be tanks (gothic knights and what I assume elephants will be in RTW). I don't think that due to their unwillingness to be trained properly, their slow sustainable speed, and the fact that they lack the size of elephants, that they do not meet either role effectively.
Bulls might be more easily spooked than horses. Although not to sure on that. Another thing is if you train them not to be able to be spooked and be mean at the same time..... how in the hell are you going to control them. Another thing is bulls do'nt take to kindly to horses in my experience. I've always seen bulls make way for the horses, this is when they are grazing the bulls let the horse graze what they want and if they keep grazing there direction they keep moving away. I think a bull prefers not to charge a horse because the horse can crack its skull. So a good counter against them would be to just charge at them with the horses. Thus forcing them to route back at your line. Of course when it comes to a pack of them the key ingredient would be to make 1 turn tale after that its history. I've never seen my grandfathers cattle split the herd up, even when I chased them(cows only no bulls) they would maintain there formation (must have been well disciplined ~:joker: )
This has to be one of the best threads ever. I'm wondering though, elephants have been used in war, did nobody try rhinos? They're a bit more docile and easy going than a bull I'd think but would have a hell of a charge. ~:eek:
Compare a Clysdale in size with a large bull...
Docile? Just because they are docile in the zoo does not mean they are so in the wild. Rhino's are quite skittish, and quite aggresive: it is very hard to tame them. In fact, practically any African animal is very hard to tame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
I don't think it is the inherent character of a bull that is the problem: horses are quite nasty animals too and can be spooked easily. It is just a question of training. But we've been training horses for thousands of years and are quite good at it. We've got no experience with bulls. And why train a bull when a horse can have the same use?
Surely the techniques for training horses can be applied to bulls. Training techniques for animals are very similar. And seeing a group of bulls charging carrying the maddest person you can find, holding a mace would be awesome! ~:mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
[QUOTE=Ludens]Docile? Just because they are docile in the zoo does not mean they are so in the wild. Rhino's are quite skittish, and quite aggresive: it is very hard to tame them. In fact, practically any African animal is very hard to tame.QUOTE]
Surely horses were skittish originally? All animals are until they're tamed. I realise keeping a rhino in check would be a little tricky for anyone bar Crocadile Dundee but the end result may be worth the effort. They bothered with elephants why not a rhino? Even tigers can be tamed, look at Siegfried and Roy. Why are African animals hard to tame? Just because they haven't been tamed yet? Or is there a reason why they are harder to tame than European beasts?
Jared Diamond published a book in which he explained why Europa and Asia had such a head-start over all the other continents when it came to civilisation. This book is called 'Guns, Germs and Steel' and is quite a good read if you are interested in the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
One of the reasons for the head-start was that generally African animals cannot be domesticated, whereas European ones could. Why? Perhaps because African animals have a longer experience with humans. For example: zebras (though being almost a horse) do not tolerate humans. They are also very hard to catch: cowboys who win prizes at rodeos by catching horses with lassos found that zebras have a knack for evading the loop.
And why go through all the bother of learning to train rhinos and bulls if you've already got horses and elephants? Not to forget that it might not work: the bull or rhino might not have the endurance neccesary for long marches and going into battle with full armour.
BTW elephants are not domesticated: there are no elephants breeding projects. They tame wild elephants, but do not breed with them. It costs to much time before they are grown. Again, this might be an issue with domesticating new animals instead of using already domesticated ones.
Well yeah, but consider the thousands of years of breeding and training that have gone into making the horse as we know it today. The fact is, the horse was able to fill the role of a fast, mobile force in medieval armies. Horses are obselete in warfare today however, making the choice to replace them with bulls a null one.
Erm ... that might not be the best example in the world. :scastle:Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
At first glance maybe. The fact that they have tigers doing their bidding on stage and behaving like lap dogs shows just what can be done. It's completely against their nature yet there they are. I know that these guys are magicians so maybe that has something to do with it... ~:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryDanish
Are you implying animals can be trained with magic? Does Gandalf do this in Lord of the rings? :scastle:Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
In essence yes. He was the only person in Middle Earth that Shadowfax would let ride him.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigC5
I think Zebras probably run from people because they are used to being hunted by them. I still think wild horses would be the same.
Coming from a different angle. Falconry was well evolved at this stage. Why didn't they train their birds to attack the eyes of enemy soldiers? If they trained them to go for the guys with the most shiny bits then they may get someone important. You may lose a few birds but it could be worth it for the panic.
How well can a tiger be tamed if it tries to eat one of its masters? ~:doh:
Maybe bulls are'nt tamed but we can tame oxes right?
Ox carts were used.
The comments about bulls not getting along with one another, and being too aggressive, broad at the shoulders, etc. are right on the mark. There is another thing I would like to add: they are somewhat dense (and I'm being kind.) A horse is a smart animal--and pigs are quite intelligent. But bulls and cows are not very bright. They are creatures of herd habits primarily.
I'm not sure if a bull could cover the distances that a horse could cover in a day. I don't think they could handle rocky terrain as well or that their balance would be as good. A horse is more nimble and faster.
How about they set the bulls on fire and charge them in with the pigs ~D ~:joker:
... though they've all got sheep beat by a longshot! ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
You're joking, right? The birds would just go for the nearest bloke in armour: you! And if you and your mates didn't wore armour, you would get chopped after the enemy manages to whack the birds out of the air. And, be reasonable: how much damage would a falcon do to a man in full armour before being hit by the man's shield or sword?Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor
No no, I can see it now! SCREEEEECH!
*swoop*
AAAARAEARRRGGH! MY EYES!!
Peregrine falcons are pretty smart, you could get them to go for the other side. And think about it-- 200mph dive, claws in the face, believe me: these guys can hit moving pidgeons from a mile up, they'll hit the unarmored part of the face. Maybe they won't always get the eyes, but it would hurt like hell and the bird would be off before you could retaliate. They're tiny little things and move fast and would be relatively safe even from bows.
Why did no one think of this? It's like a Greco-Roman sniper rifle!
(Well, the Romans actually did have light ballistae which essentially functioned as sniper rifles.)
DA
I was going to mention this - excellent book, it very well describes the reasons why civilizations turned out the ways they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludens
The animals in Africa are able to be tamed to a point, but not domesticated. Perhaps if they hadn't been hunted by humans for thousands of years they might be more adaptable to being tamed and perhaps even domesticated, but that chance is gone now. Even tamed tigers turn on their keepers every so often - which is why it's amusing that Sig + Roy were brought up.
Bulls are bovines - which are herd animals and rather stupid aswell. In combat it would go something like: CHARGE! *bull gets a spear in the eye* *bull wails in pain and bolts away from the pointy sticks* *rest of bulls hear this and take off as well*
Once again this might be because cattle have been domesticated for so long that they only rely on eachother and don't really think for themselves as much as horses do. Horses were never bred and domesticated primarily for food at a degree that cattle have been but have been relied on more for mobile transportation than anything.
Read Jared Diamonds book if you haven't already - it's quite the read.
I think this is the best point made here, this also answers all the debate about training. Horses are easier to train as they are smarter. ~:cheers:Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Harvest
Birds of prey could do the job. The enemy, those in full plate armour, won't have their visors down until they're engaged in battle. I'd have thought they'd keep them up to survey the battlefield until it's necessary to sacrifice vision for protection. A man would have to be mightily quick to stop a bird swooping at their face from up high, it'd take them completely by surprise. If they were suspecting bird strike and kept their visors down out of fear from the previous day's air ambush then their peripheral vision would be next to none. They would be flanked and dead.
Either way the birds are the key to military supremacy in the middle ages, they just needed a visionary to point it out to them.
~:joker:
I am curious as to how you would train them to do that. They've tried it with dogs and dolphins, but those animals weren't able to do it either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Arroyo
And how much havoc do you think a dozen falcons would wreak on your average medieval army? You'd need hundreds, because after the first attack everyone closes his visor or raises his shield.
Yup, war chickens, can't think why no one thought of that before... ~DQuote:
Either way the birds are the key to military supremacy in the middle ages, they just needed a visionary to point it out to them.
I seem to remember mongols did ride cattle (cows rather than bulls), to save their horses for battle and also because you can't milk a horse.
The thing is...why use birds? That is what arrows are for, and they work much more effectively and efficiently.
Would birds not have a longer range and if trained correctly would be more accurate. ~:dizzy:Quote:
Originally Posted by DisruptorX
What about hippos? They can run at the same speed on land and under water, about 25 mph max speed. This would be awesome. Imagine an amphimbious flanking charge by armoured hippos!!! Coooool! :charge:
Squirrels, hordes of them. With anthropmorphic mouse riders carrying lances.
I'll rule the world.
But seriously, oxon were used for centuries (and still are) as draft animals before the development of the warhorse (and its decendants the Shires etc). But I do not think anyone has yet developped good methods of control like the bit.
Give people some credit guys, the evolution of armour is a very interesting topic and the application of small aggressive war birds would easily be countered by placing a couple small metal bars over the eyes and could still allow the full motion of the visor. People can be ingenious, but to invest resources in buying and training birds and have them wasted for what would likely amount to a diversion, at best a morale hit when the animal was largely considered to be the symbol of the nobility and a treasured pet is rediculous. At best you invest all these resources and get maybe 2 fights out of them before the flock is killed off or made obsolete by armour enhancements. Besides, falcons are largely solitary creatures and do not hunt together. This would cause issues with massed bird attacks.
I like the squirrel idea myself, better than my hamster plot. ~:joker:
What we really need here is the Minsc's legendary Miniture Giant Space Hamster Boo! They would be unstoppable! There shall be smiting of eveil for everyone!!! :knight:
I wonder how those dogs in RTW will do,I've read in a preview that after you unleash them,you cannto control them anymore,cool isn't it ?
Squirells might work, nothing would demoralise the enemy more than having their nuts stolen.
Falcons were more traditionally used to intercept messenger pigeons, i would imagine a stampede would break up almost any formation, but you would need a lot of cattle, you would need to get them to the battle and would need to make them stampede towards the enemy, not so easy im sure.
How about chariots pulled by emus? they would peck everything shiny that the enemies had, a fearsome bird indeed.
Re birds/falcons: there's a reason falconing was the sport of kings- it took a heck of a lot of time, patience, skill, consistent effort (all= money) to get the bird to kill another bird and come back to its handler. From a simple cost-effectiveness point of view, it was a non-starter. Imagine buying an attack bird in MTW that cost 5,000 florins up front, 1,000 per turn thereafter, and you still didn't know who or whether it would attack something that wasn't already it natural prey...
Per Guns, Germs Steel, 1) it is a great book on this question, and I agree people who like this question should read it; 2) one of his theses is that domesticating ANY plant or animal is very hard b'c most plants/animals have intrinsic qualities (won't breed in captivity, for example), that make them unsuitable for domestication. It takes **thousands** of years to get the products we know today as sheep, peas, corn. Why else, of the zillions of natural species on earth, do we raise a total of about 6 farm animals and eat about 30 vegetables?? So people tend to stick with what's already achieved instead of re-inventing the wheel (or horse, or pea, or...) Its possible that if the horse had never been domesticated, people might've put more effort into breeding a more controllable bull by now. But who knows if it would've succeeded? It might be something your just can't cull out of a bull's nature.
But the image of a bull-unit charge is pretty cool...
Actually, I remember reading at least one account of the use of battle cattle during the Chinese period of Warring States. It was a bit different than you might think, though.
A general was outnumbered and his forces were surrounded, and the enemy was preparing for the final blow. As per standard practice, the encircling army left a significant gap in its line, to give the prey illusions of escape and make it easier to take down. The defending general, knowing the importance of morale, had some of his troops drive a herd of cattle to fill the gap, so that all his army could see that there really was no escape, and that they would have to fight for their lives.
The surrounded forces fought ferociously, the story goes, and defeated the assault.
DA
Now I suppose everyone will want the new and improved quad barrelled heat seaking hamster launcher for their legions instead of pila.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethik
mfberg
If you want to use the animal itself for combat, you might as well use elephants. If you can't get your hands on elephants, there's no point in going for anything except speed, stamina, and slight intelligence (horses are intelligent enough to think that they're being attacked when they get kicked in the butt, so they run)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sethik
A bull, however, would be much harder to ride, and I don't think it has the same stamina as a horse.
Camels are good as well, btw. (as you all probably knew, just thought I should point it out)
The Chinese I think, used birds of prey to tear out people's eyes, although I think that could be just a fantasy.
Also, Stampeding Cattle were definitely used in history.
I just rememberd Juli are red arent they. So we could use wild bulls against them just like war dogs. ~:shock:
And something off topic:
How laud will the screaming womens be ~:confused:
How much ammo will head throwers have ~:confused:
And whay is wedge formation special if any cav can form it ~:confused:
Hmm, surprised no one's mentioned the ultimate animal weapon -- catapult-launched rancid cow carcases, a la Stronghold... "Hope they like beef!"
Sure they can't run by themselves, but they do pack a punch.
I agree with the time, patience, skill and consistent effort. And the pecking order there was regarding who could keep which birds. But I can't believe there was vast expense in training the birds. Surely, if the gaffer was hell bent on creating a bird strike force could just get his surfs to do it. Also the keeping costs would be a fraction of keeping virtually any other animal such as horses, pigs etc. You'd only need aviaries and some day old chicks. So for the game I think a minimal cost, long production time and virtually no upkeep. The number in the unit would be 10 so they could make nice delta formations in the sky. They would also be invisible until their first attack like Sherwood Foresters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obadiah
~:cheers:
heh, good thread.
The arguments that we have domesticated horses for war and not food is flawed in that if we had chosen to use bulls in war instead of horses all of those thousands of years of training and selective breeding would have been applied to bulls instead.
I do not think it would have worked as well as horses however, bulls aren't exactly the right shape for riding and they would all need to be gelded, one bull per field idea.
The birds of prey against armoured opponents would be totally wasted, beak and talon against steel is a no brainer.
of course then again i once trained two cats from kittens to ninja.....they didn't do so good against people but i do feel sorry for a certain raccoon that tried to eat there cat food....
An important point to remember is that when horses were first domesticated they were too small & weak to be ridden, which is why you had chariots as mounts for nobles early on (replacing asses and oxen I believe). Horses being faster than oxen etc.
So, the thinking probably went "We've got these fast animals pulling our chariots, let's breed them bigger so we can ride them and become more manoeuvreable."
As a note, when horses became rideable the original seating position was a lot further back than the position now used (and used by Macedonians, Romans etc.).
~DQuote:
Originally Posted by eadeater
I agree!!!!!!!!!! then we could use flaming elephants, then get some giraffes as a mobile archer platform ~D
light all the AMINALS on fire you want...they ain't got nothing on my ninja cats...lol
p.s. i started with two and now have a clan...lol
But what about the moral implications of setting animals on fire? Would a medievel group of animal rights activists pop up in the middle of the battle between two sets of charging cavalry to protest? ~:dizzy:Quote:
Originally Posted by shogunKatzumoto
~:joker:
I forgot to mention there is a way to keep bulls together but after that they will moo like a cow and not a bull. If they were to use them for battle they would need to castrate them. The trick would be getting the timing right. If you castrate them too early they will have the behaviour of a cow and if you do it too late, they'll be too aggressive to handle. but if you had the right timing they'd still be agressive but not uncontrollable. I remember my grandfather got a bit of a bad deal and had gotten some bulls but they were castrated too late and were quite problematic. Well instead of beefing them up a little more they went to the butcher early
Nah, I'm sure they'd eventually organize into Unions and demand the same rights as horses.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigC5
... and that's where I stopped reading ... OUCH! I just doubled over in my seat as I read that.Quote:
Originally Posted by oaty
yeah how dare them be denied the oppurtunity to have a a burly warrior climb on there backs and be spurred into battle...nah i think i would pass... but i think i have an insight on the uhh.."nut chopping"..thing...imagine if your... uh you know ....was gone before you knew what they were would you miss them?.....cut them off now?.....i would be rather unmanagable as well................................still say the answer is in ninja cats...
How much training does a cat need before it reaches Ninja status? ~:wacko:
If the cat's already black does it need an outfit?
ok this is really off the topic but...i guess this was silly a while before i got here.... ~:dizzy: i am sure all familiar with the game...tenchu:stealth assasians.......will one day i was walking through my yard and i heard two cats screaming.....i live by some apartments and i followed their screams to there.i soon discovered that the screams were coming from a third floor balcony.i scaled the building and rescued the two kittens.(the apartment was empty,they were abandoned...one male kitten ,which was all black...one female tiger stryped mostly grey and brown.i soon discovered that they were intelligent animals and they would play and wrestle as kittens do.so i started to train them.i trained them to climb in some apple trees in my yard and behind the orchard there is some grass i was too lazy to cut.ten years later it is a field and a mini forest.i taught them to hide.they first started to bring back mice and then they got better.they started to bring back rabbits and squirrels.i thought about making them little ninja outfits but they didn't seem to like them all so well...lol.and it wasn't too long after that they began to mate and the next spring....i had a clan of ninja!the best fight they were ever in was when a raccoon tried to eat their cat food and rikimaru(the male,black kitten)got the raccoon away from the food and ayame(female )started to chase it away.when the raccoon started to walk away and that is when it got fun...ayame jumped and with four feet of claws,she jumped in the middle of that raccoon's back and it squatted,screamed,and took off running and it dragged ayame with it until it was away from the cat food.
cats are extremely intelligent and make good warriors.i was so happy that their training finally came in to good use... :jumping: ...ayame swooped out of no where, that raccoon didn't know what hit him...lol...it took about a year for them to be what i would call ninja...the three males out of their first litter were quite amazing as well...one yellow and orange tiger striped..he was called...rayz...,one orange tiger striped. he was called ....strykes...,
and one black one with brown tiger stripes..he was called...illusion... .
well one day strykes and rayz were fighting/playing and illusion ran up to them..rayz was on top of strykes and illusion jumped in the air kicked rayz in the head..he tried to stryke back but fell as illusion grabbed on to a tree...
and as soon as rayz hit the ground illusion jumped on strykes and he was done for.....illusion walked away ,sat down...and started to lick his paws.....
cats fast agile deadly... ninja cats..assasians of the animal kingdom
My friend has a killer cat with no front claws. It is frightened of everything, including laser pointers (which drive most cats mad) and insects (she runs and hides from crickets), but the last time they let her out of the house she brought back a rabbit and spread its dismembered body all over the basement ~:eek: ~:eek: ~:eek:
She is a soft-gray applehead and she is fat but evidently she can run when she wants to. And has found a way to kill without claws. ~:eek:
DA
cats are very resourceful animals.
Hi all, back on the original topic there are a few things that havnt been mentioned. I grew up on a farm and we had bulls/cows, horses, sheep, etc.
Firslty - warhorses are not only trained to charge, but kick as well. A warhorse in a melee is actually a formidable opponent and with its powerful kick can do a lot of damage. A Bull simply does not have the agility to pull off such manouvers - it would charge into a pike wall and die. A horse's agility at least will let it jump the first row perhaps.
Also their [horse] speed advantage is critical when used for flanking and other such manouvers.
Secondly - (this has been mentioned) Stamina, you've got to remember that an army has to travel long long distances and I'm not sure if a bull has the stamina (being much heavier with shorter legs) to go the distances required, let along navigate some of the terrain required.
People have also bought up the intelligence factor which is probably a key part of it as well, however many people believe that cows are dumb, which is not true. Cows (not bulls) are actually very intelligent but their docile and relaxed movements can be misleading. Cows would very often get the better of sheep dogs back on the farm by outsmarting them and luring them into traps.
On an interesting note, a tactic used in medieval times was to actually charge herds of bulls into enemy formations to try and break them up, so someone did think of using bulls in combat - just not riding them.
Also the first horses to appear on this planet were about the size of a small dog, amazing what selective breeding over thousands of years can do huh?