Finished Baldur's Gate after 7 years

I finally got around to finishing the first Baldur's Gate (with the Sword Coast add-on). Since I first started playing it when it came out (1998?), I reckon I've been playing it off and on for around 7 years. I always used to burn out when I got to the city of Baldur's Gate (maybe a 2/3 of the way through the game?) but in the current drought of good games, I resolved to load up an old save and see it through.

Anyone else appreciate this classic? For some reason, I really liked the rather slow pace - endless clearing of large maps of wilderness or city - and the slow unfolding of a momentus story. It felt like an authentic epic, rather than some instant gratification roller-coaster experience. Some of the bigger sidequests - Durlag's Tower, Balduran's Island - were nicely done and the main plot developed in chapters 6 and 7 in a satisfying way. The climatic battle was a b**** and after half a dozen turns (I had no summoning capacity), I switched off the game but then decided to have one more go and miraculously pulled off a victory despite merely trying to survive rather than key the bad guy. In retrospect, the difficulty made the ending of the game sufficiently memorable and satisfying, rather than anti-climatic.

Now, the only thing I have to decide is whether to load up my old incomplete savegame of Baldur's Gate 2!

HAH


Go play a half decent game like morrowind.


BG and BG2 suck.

Good game, a bit tough to get going tho. You will probably like the sequal even more, it basicly improves on everything. It is my favourite traditional RPG, maybe only rivaled by planescape torment.

Ys, Baldur's Gate 2 is greatly improved - however, just as I burnt out in BG when I got to the city, in BG2, I lost motivation after coming out of the Underdark. Sometimes too much non-linearity came be a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

Anyone else appreciate this classic? For some reason, I really liked the rather slow pace - endless clearing of large maps of wilderness or city - and the slow unfolding of a momentus story.

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It was similar for me - I bought BG1 when it came out but on the PC I had at that time it turned out to be hardly playable so I did not get very far and shelved it unfinished although I liked it very much.
After BG2 came out (I had a new PC by then) I played it, absolutely loved it and finished it. After finishing BG2 I got the feeling I missed something of the whole epic and decided to give BG1 another try.
First it was a bit difficult to get used to it, as BG2 was much more polished (they actiually did not change too much but the game just was less bumpy, e.g., without the respawning of critters in some areas and with the change that battles were paused instead of being unpaused when you checked your inventory) - but after the story started to unfold it became real fun to play it and it felt almost as good as BG2. Also it alsways has a certain charme to start with a weak level 1 character.
I started a new BG2 game with my BG1 character (I finally want to use these golden pantaloons) but I did not get very far yet...

Hey congrats Simon! :knight:

I only finished BG when my g/f (now my wife) was very ill with glandular fever. Every weekend I would go round to her house with my BG CD's and my save game on a floppy and play BG on her PC all day whilst she slept 20 hours a day. I got a bazillion brownie points for going to see her even though she was asleep, and I got to play one of the best PC games of all time. Result!

What character did you play as? First time I did it was with a half elven Ranger. Me & Coran were killing machines with our long bows ~:cool:

And I agree with you about the "epic" feel of the game. From the packaging to that wonderful, powerful, majestic theme music, the whole game has a wonderful feel to it. And as Ser Clegane says, taking your puny lvl 1 character who can't fight their way out of a paper bag to Godlike levels is a wonderful feeling. I'd love to import my favourite BG2 character, Lady Deburah of the Most Noble Order of the Radiant Heart, a 21st level Paladin, back into the opening of BG in Candlekeep and go around chunking those wolves & kobolds who used to kill you in seconds :knight:

Now, go play BG2! :bow:

Does she KNOW that you weren't sitting by her bed-side gazing lovingly at her but were instead having a game-fest.If she doesn't you might hope she doesn't check these forums. ~:joker: ~:joker:

Good to hear this game is still appreciated. Like Mount and Ser Clegane, I like to take a character starting from zero and build them up. BG1 is particularly good in this regard, as levelling is painfully slow at first and almost anything can kill you at level one. I remember desperately seeking out another 5 members of my party, just so my main character could stay alive. In BG2, you get a little god-like rather soon, although the epic mage duels do add something to the combat.

I played a vanilla fighter, Mount. Complimented her by the trademark early good-aligned party of Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc and Dyanheir. Not the most powerful team, I suppose but very characterful and fitting nicely with the story. You can also reprise them, with a few sad losses, in BG2.

My only dilemma is whether to start BG2 again from the beginning or dig up my old post-Underdark save. With RTW on the horizon, the latter may be most sensible but I do tend to like the earlier stages of CRPGs best (which is why I seldom finish them!).

Hello Efrem Da King,

I haven't really played either of those games, can you please explain the differences?

Well, I can't speak for Effrem, but here's my take on the difference between Morrowind and Baldurs Gate:

1. Most obviously, in terms of graphics Morrowind is first person and BG is isomorphic. Morrowind resembles a shooter in visuals and indeed is amazingly beautiful, making it immersive for that reason. In BG, you have a top down oblique third person view of the characters. I rather like BGs visuals, but that they are more like those of a nice painting whereas those of Morrowind are like those of a movie.

2. Following on from that, Morrowind has a sole protaganist whereas in BG you command a party. Arguably, this makes BG much more tactical - hard core pen and paper role players say it is a squad level tactical combat game and they have a point. It is all about combined arms - mixing fighters, spell casters, thieves, summoned monsters, ranged and melee weapons, etc etc. Formation and positioning are very important.

3. MW combat requires an element of "twitching" - like a shooter, the players' manual dexterity will have an influence on the outcome. BG is rather more like MTW in SP - you can pause and reevaluate, combat outcomes are determined by formula and random factors not manual dexterity. In both cases, combat can be lethal but typically in BG, you learn from your demise and try to devise tactics to give you victory in the future whereas in MW, you tend to just feel lucky (or at least, not unlucky in having stumbled into something beyond your level).

4. BG, especially BG2, has a very strong epic central story arc. There are an awful lot of sidequests, but the central story arc pulls you in using dreams, scripted encounters, plot twists etc. In MW, the game is much more freeform. The central story is optional, almost lost in the ocean of sidequests and seems to be largely told via in-game books that you can read. Some people have said Morrowind is an awesome world simulator, but not much of a game and that is a view I would subscribe to.

5. Similarly, the characterisation of the NPCs (particularly the recruitable ones) in BG, especially BG2, is very vivid - there are some, such as the huge, dimwitted ranger Minsc and his "giant mutant space hamster" that you will probably remember until the day you die. By contrast, in MW not a single NPC stands out - they seem like ciphers, with no personality, little discrenible agenda and little awareness of you.

6. The rules systems are very different. BG is a by the rules, Dungeons and Dragons game. This means it is a pretty balanced and well established rules system that has stood the test of time. MW uses it own rules, which means that some things can be very unbalanced (swords of stunning) and some things can be very daft (I spent hours running, jumping off cliffs and getting deliberately bitten by mudcrabs in order to boost my stats - yes, I know it's my fault but the game system rewards that).

Anyway, that's my take on the two game systems. I confess I am not including the Morrowing add-ons that I have not played, whereas I am including BG2 which is a vast improvement over BG. However, from what I've experienced, I would say Morrowind is drop dead gorgeous but rather vacuous whereas BG is more quaint but has more personality.

I'd be interested to hear Effrem elucidate his take on the two games

Beautiful comparison sir. I salute you.

But hey, I prefer Morrowind - it's prettier.

now you can get the next step of RPGing... Neverwinter Nights plus the addons. Or heroin. Both are equally addictive and will fill that RPG shaped hole that is now forming in your life.

NWN is also pretty nice looking and allows zooming and view altering unlike BG. And you don't have to put up with Minsc or his bloody rat either ( OK sometimes hes amusing but not always. Sometimes you just want a hammer or rat poison no?).

Plus there is an excellent editor that you can use to make your own levels and that can get really fun. I played one made by a friend that was set in an Alice the Wonderland style forest with chess boards and other surreal stuff (including a killer penguin) and ongoing NPC battles between good and evil all around... I don't recall BG having one.

PS: if you are a Baldurs gate fan there is a fan made download that completes the incomplete part of the game in Throne of Bhaal I think that was never finished by the developers. Apparently well worth downloading.

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Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

5. Similarly, the characterisation of the NPCs (particularly the recruitable ones) in BG, especially BG2, is very vivid - there are some, such as the huge, dimwitted ranger Minsc and his "giant mutant space hamster" that you will probably remember until the day you die. By contrast, in MW not a single NPC stands out - they seem like ciphers, with no personality, little discrenible agenda and little awareness of you.

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And this is where the BG series stands light years in front of MW ~:)

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I'd be interested to hear Effrem elucidate his take on the two games

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Me also.

It will probly be along the lines of "BG sucks!!!! Morrowing rulez!! U cna steel stuff n kill people in Morriwund!!!!!! BG sucks!"!! Anyone who disagrees is a moron!!"

Hi, everyone! ~:wave:

I would like to ask some questions for the experts that have played both games. Is the BG series very different from NWN? I'm asking this specially relating to storyline. Is it somewhat similar? Does it have the same appeal?

The reason is because a lot of people say that BG and BG2 are probably two of the best written games ever. I would like to know if NWN can be compared to them relating to story richness and immersion.

Thanks in advance... :bow:

Aymar, the NWN official campaign aspires to be like BG but somehow does not achieve it. Partly the problem is that the gameplay is dumbed down - there are seemingly endless fights, but what is different from BG is that these are pretty easy and not that well motivated. Some people have said it was a case of trying to ape Diablo. They certainly feel more frenetic and don't have that majestic pace of BG.

Another problem with NWN is there is no party - with DnD, that is kind of like Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark. Especially in BG2, it was the party interactions that helped make the story come alive. They also added vastly to the gameplay/strategy element.

There are some fine moments in the NWN official campaign - the climax to the early chapter (chapter 1?) in Neverwinter and its epilogue are splendid in gameplay and in story-telling. There is also a wonderful sidequest (Charwood) that is as haunting as any in a CRPG. It's worth playing for those alone, but it does not add up to anything remotely as good as BG2.

The expansions to NWN are better than the official campaign. I really enjoyed the Shadows of Undrentide - it had character, wit, good combat etc - but it lacked the scale and grandeur of BG2. Some folk speak highly of Hordes of the Underdark, but I have not got that far with it (trying to multiplay it with my young son).

The closest thing recently to BG2 in my opinion is Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic. That had a very splendid story arc and some wonderfully written (and acted) characters.

Why can't I like NWN? I really try, but I just can't.

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Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

Aymar, the NWN official campaign aspires to be like BG but somehow does not achieve it. Partly the problem is that the gameplay is dumbed down - there are seemingly endless fights, but what is different from BG is that these are pretty easy and not that well motivated. Some people have said it was a case of trying to ape Diablo. They certainly feel more frenetic and don't have that majestic pace of BG.

Another problem with NWN is there is no party - with DnD, that is kind of like Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark. Especially in BG2, it was the party interactions that helped make the story come alive. They also added vastly to the gameplay/strategy element.

There are some fine moments in the NWN official campaign - the climax to the early chapter (chapter 1?) in Neverwinter and its epilogue are splendid in gameplay and in story-telling. There is also a wonderful sidequest (Charwood) that is as haunting as any in a CRPG. It's worth playing for those alone, but it does not add up to anything remotely as good as BG2.

The expansions to NWN are better than the official campaign. I really enjoyed the Shadows of Undrentide - it had character, wit, good combat etc - but it lacked the scale and grandeur of BG2. Some folk speak highly of Hordes of the Underdark, but I have not got that far with it (trying to multiplay it with my young son).

The closest thing recently to BG2 in my opinion is Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic. That had a very splendid story arc and some wonderfully written (and acted) characters.

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As is always the case from Lord Appleton, a splendid answer. Thourough and conclusive. Now I see. :bow:

However, I must say this: the NWN fighting system isn't in any way comparable to the one in Diablo. IMHO, it's far more automatic than Blizzard's system.

P.S. : It seems KOTOR will be next on my list... :wink: Being a SW game, I never looked that way... :thinking:

KOTOR had a really rather amusing storyline...

NWN's storyline is okay, not as good... but the game's strength lies in the fan-produced mods. Some of them are very very good.

Lehesu, give nwn a while. I didn't like it when i originally got it but i'm quite enjoying it now (just waiting for my copy of HotU to come).

Somebody Else, could you give me a list of some of the best modules to download. I've had a look round but there are so many. I'd prefer modules designed for mid-high levels.

KOTOR is a great game. I'd recommend it to any body who likes RPG's.

It's been a while, but there was a Paladin oriented series, with three modules, called Midnight, Twilight and... something else... The same guy also made a brilliant one for a Rogue type character.

Another good series is the Shadowlords/Dreamweaver series of modules. Have a looksee at The Vault - most of the top rated ones are very very good.

Baldur's Gate was a HUGE dissapointment, because it promised "multiple solutions" but did not deliver, it also lacked npc interaction and had gamebreaking horrible path finding. I thought "hey cool, an AD&D game by the makers of Fallout". I thought it would be as good as Fallout. I was so hyped up, but when it finally was released, I was dissapointed beyond words. No plot, no interaction, characters that turn around and go "the long way". Grrrrrr....... I still remember how dissapointed I was when I put the brand new BG cd in my computer and started it up. Also, Baldur's Gate came out around winter 1998, its not even 6 years old yet.

Baldur's Gate II, however, was much better.

Anyway, Kotor is a good game, as is Morrowind. I'm a big rpg fan, however, and I'm still waiting in vain for the game to come that finally takes the crown from Fallout as the greatest rpg ever.

Yeah, some of the criticism of NWN bites on the bone, it has its weaknesses, but it does make up for them in other ways. Hey, you can go on a bovine and chicken killin rampage if you want (actually this was accidental, I tested a new spell on a chicken and then my henchmen decided it was their duty to finish off the rest of the farm animals... another flaw?).

KOTOR is not as heavily RPG though so don't go into it if you are a stat monster. Its much more accessible, but quite short in the main storyline, also feels at times that the D&D stuff is just there for show, it doesnt add much to the experience. The subplots are class though and I'm still going back to play little side games to date (got it christmas and finished it in 3 months, so thats 6 extra months of reduced gameplay from it). The humour and story telling is good though and theres just enough free will to allow you to do things your way and not overlly pre-prescribed.

Plus it aint really all that Star Wars, not really. Although you can make your character a near Solo clone if you like. ~:) ~:)

[To DisruptorX]Well, I can see that coming to BG after Fallout might be a disappointment. Fallout 2 is top of my all time favorite list.

I am not sure they were made by the same people - Black Isle made Fallout, Bioware made BG. Bioware went on to make NWN and KOTOR. Black Isle made Planescape Torment and Icewind Dale. I think some of the Fallout people went to Troika to make Arcanum and Temple of Elemental Evil. Now that Black Isle has folded, I believe some others have formed Obsidian which will make KOTOR2.

But I think you are being overharsh on BG. Going back to it, I was irked by the pathfinding for the first time (later games improved on it) but it was not gamebreaking and not as bad as the bugs and crashes that marr FO2.

I thought the plot of BG was pretty good, although it had a long build up. I found the opening cinematic and in-game prologue compelling - I really wanted to get Sarevok - and although it was slow burning, it eventually caught fire. I nearly fell out of my seat when I realised who Koveras was. I loved firing up BG2 (before I'd finished BG1) and seeing it open with the words of Alaundo that at the beginning of BG1 I'd dismissed as meaningless background babble when chanted in Candlekeep.

"Go for the eyes boo!"

I still play BG1 and 2. Great fun. Piper, well done now move on and finish BG2 and have the joy of watching the ending and reading what happens to the characters. And getting it on with Jaheira.
*Shivers in fear and discust*
Or maybe not.

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Originally Posted by Somebody Else

It's been a while, but there was a Paladin oriented series, with three modules, called Midnight, Twilight and... something else... The same guy also made a brilliant one for a Rogue type character.

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Twilight, Midnight, and Dawn. All made by Rick Burton. And no, Dawn isnt out yet. ~:(

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Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

[To DisruptorX]I am not sure they were made by the same people - Black Isle made Fallout, Bioware made BG. Bioware went on to make NWN and KOTOR. Black Isle made Planescape Torment and Icewind Dale. I think some of the Fallout people went to Troika to make Arcanum and Temple of Elemental Evil. Now that Black Isle has folded, I believe some others have formed Obsidian which will make KOTOR2.
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Just to note, Black Ilse was simply the rpg division of Interplay, not a seperate company.

You are absolutely right, Bioware made BG and Interplay published it, while Interplay developed and published Fallout. However, Baldur's Gate was advertised as "from the people who made fallout".

Baldur's Gate certainly wasn't a horrid game, just a disapointment. I feel that the 2nd one fixed all my problems and is one of my favourite rpgs ever, however.

Thanks for the explanation Simon Appleton.
7 years, seems money well spent then?

What is it that you like more about MW Efrem Da King?

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Originally Posted by 71-hour Ahmed

KOTOR is not as heavily RPG though so don't go into it if you are a stat monster.

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This is one of the great KOTOR myths, that it is an RPG-lite. Truth is, underneath all that gloss and shine, the game is AD&D at its core. As a vet of BG, BG2, PS:T, IWD, the AD&D heart of the game was very obvious, and made learning the "system" as it were, very easy. But to someone who never got on with the stat heavy presentation of the likes of BG *cough* Frogbeastegg *cough* it presents a user-friendly and easy interface. As I've said before, I think in many ways KOTOR is just about the most polished game I've ever played.

It is beautiful to look at (helps that its sunset wherever you go ~:D )

You have tremendous character freedom and numerous paths

Wonderful voice acting

Tremendous NPCs - HK-47 is the best, Carth was made for all the lady RPG fans out there (except Froggy, ~:P ), Jolee is a badass old bald guy...

Countless side quests (hey, its a bioware game)

And it has a great story with one of the greatest twists in videogame history, the Kaiser Soze moment as someone here described it.

No self-respecting RPG fan should be without it ~:)

You really shouldnt compare the BG series to Morrowind at all they are completely different sub genres - One is Classic RPG the other is Classic Adventure RPG there is little or no crossover between the sub genres

BG was my first real RPG hit i was a RTS junkie until that game currupted me and i loved every minute - took me 2 years to finish it but i kept coming back until i did and BG2 took me to new highs - unfortunatly neither compares to Planescape torment that is in my mind the greatest classic RPG there are few that can come close

My, my, that's a nasty cough you've got there, Mount Suribachi! :gring:

KOTOR is one of the best games I have ever played, and I've played hundreds. Even though I finished it around Christmas I still remember much of the detail as if I played it yesterday; it's a game that has stuck in my mind. I played it over and over, and it's quite rare for me to replay a game once I've completed it and found everything. I await the sequal with great anticipation, and curse the fact the US get it some 2 months before the UK.

Carth really should be spit roasted over an open fire though. :yes:

Can't wait for KOTOR 2. Played (and completed) the original loads of times then foolishly lent it too a mate and havn't had it back :furious:.

Does any1 know when the release date is?

KOTOR2 is December for the US (recently confirmed) and February (speculation, according to the announcement PAL won't be this year) for the PAL version. The PC version is last of all. I can't remember where I saw the announcement on this subject, but it came from the horse's mouth.

february. Thats a really long time. I want it now. Whats the setting this time? is it before or after the first game.

A few years after the first game. Apparantly you will find out what happened to your old party and character; you are even supposed to meet a few of them again. One of teh features they are making a lot of noise about is the way you can 'tell' the game what happened in your KOTOR game so this new one follows it up correctly. They haven't said how exactly this will work, but it is supposed to handle details like lightside/darkside endings, player character sex, dead characters.

Cool. Can't wait for it.

edit: yay, jut checked the Game website and it says it will be out in Nov 04 for the xbox and Dec 04 for the PC

Part of NWNs problem for me is that I can't understand how "good" relative to each other each spell/skill/feat is. Coming from a Diablo 2 background, it is more than a little difficult to figure out how to emulate characters that I wish to "role-play". I want to play as a fighter with lots of dexterity, able to block and parry well, kind of like a fencer. A good comparison to this would be Raphael from Soul Calibur 2. However, I don't know the optimum combo of stats and starting feat/skills. Any advice in this?

go to the Bioware website... takes ages to load but it is a lot of good guides including a munchkin one which is interesting if you wish to avoid powergaming but at the same time it highlights what may be bad choices...

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Originally Posted by Simon Appleton

Ys, Baldur's Gate 2 is greatly improved - however, just as I burnt out in BG when I got to the city, in BG2, I lost motivation after coming out of the Underdark. Sometimes too much non-linearity came be a bad thing.

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This is the main problem with Morrowind - so much freedom is given that the player is left bewildered and unknowing of what to do, and in a pretty bleak gameworld, that quickly stops one cold in one's tracks.

BG2 is undoubtedly one of the greatest games I ever played, and it will forever remain on that list of only 3-4 games.

Playing it through with a mage that started out pretty weak but grew into a very potent powerhouse that lended a huge hand in owning Irenicus' ass was a great experience, really enhanced by the amazing story, the amazing high-level battles, the character stronghold quests and the love plots. What a ride!

I still need to get Throne of Bhaal, which I'm gonna do right now! ~D



~Wiz

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

I still need to get Throne of Bhaal, which I'm gonna do right now! ~D


~Wiz

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You will be dissapointed. Compared to BG II, the expansion is uninspired and dull. Its a linear romp through boring locales without the cool villains of the original. You are better off not playing it.

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Originally Posted by DisruptorX

You will be dissapointed. Compared to BG II, the expansion is uninspired and dull. Its a linear romp through boring locales without the cool villains of the original. You are better off not playing it.

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I seriously hope you don't mean this. Throne of Bhaal was an excellent expansion IMO. It is a bit more linair, but the story is grand. You should definately put Sarevok in your party, he's sure to give some nice conversations. The city you start in is under siege, which is a new kind of thing as well.
Then there's the Watcher's Keep, although the final monster (won't tell you what it is ~;p) is a bit weak without the patch made by some fans, it's definately nice to get through all levels in the Tower.

Really, it's pretty nice. As are BG1 (and TotSW) and BG2. BG1 is special to me because it got me into the RPG scene. My elder brother bought it, and I'd watch him play and play myself when I got home earlier from school. He never finished it (couldn't get past the last warband before Sarevok), but I finished it. He was really mad at me for that ~D.
When BG2 came out, I bought it, and enjoyed it. (And after that IWD etc etc)

The original NWN was okay. The original campaign wasn't too good (too much hack 'n slash compared to BG), but SoU was nice, and HotU very nice. I finished the SoU-HotU campaign 3 times.
But NWN was basically made for multiplayer & custom content. So even if you dislike the OC, there is a lot more to discover.

Morrowind didn't have a multiplayer and was incrediably vast. Not to mention it got some quirks, like the max you could sell items for was extremely low (you had to mod it). I also spent 3 days finding a cave, which wasn't where they said it was (it was at the OTHER side of the mountain). And lastly, the skill system, although very original, was very bad. I run most of the time, to cover all the distances, but I soon was level 20 from all that jumping and running, with a lot of points in athletics and acrobatics. But then I got to face level 20 creatures as well.. and I simply couldn't win... except if I used the cheesy archery...
So I didn't like it very much, although the music was absolutely stunning and the graphics very nice as well, it just didn't catch me.

Playing the BG series i always get the feeling that they dont make games as they used to anymore. I ve literally played those games to exhaustion and BG II is still my favorite RPG by far... The character interaction and story line are so well made that you rarelly find them in another RPG. Really who hasnt been annoyed by Jan Jansen constatly talking and the following frustration by the fact that you do need a thief so you can only tollerate him :) Or the goodie-goodie Aerie or that arrogant pompous Anomen. Who doesnt love Boo and Minsk's crazy character that gave you courage through the bloomy underdark? The character dialogues...the romance with Viconia ;) .

Now for a comparisson. I ve played Morrowind , i ve played ALL morrowind , every mission and every add-on all 300 or so gameplay hours ( and messed up my semester since i didnt really attend lectures for a month and a half being a full time morrowind gamer). Morrowind is cool , morrowind is beautifull morrowing is fun to play but all this doesnt make it a better RPG than BG II. The nice and simple 2D approach of BG II allowed you to dedicate your concentration in the game itself and not to stupid bloody things that can fly on your head and go 'aaaargh!' from behind ( yes i still believe a good rpg should be BG or Fallout like...2D or isometric that is). Moreover the gameplay provided by the availability of a group of diverse characters is superior to the endless 'hack hack slash' of Morrowind and its lack of decent party making. As i said Morrowind is fun , its the best RPG is saw the year it was published but BG it isnt...

yes, what is it about the cliff racers in morrowwind? I've wiped out a large part of the ecosystem travelling from A to B due to their constant attacks...

The Cliff rangers are annoying in morrowind. There is a mod that removes all of them.