The problem with elephants..

There's too many of them in an elephant unit. For normal sizes, 6 elephants compared to 40 in regular units is ridiculously out of propoprtion. Imagine if the ancients had that ratio? 40000 men have 6000 elephants? Seems the only way to rout them unless you bring a long super anti-elephant troops (pigs) is to surround them with swarms of men, and you'll lose a ton in the process. Even when you rout them, they'll do some damage as you cut them down while fleeing, 6 routing elephants destroyed half of 2 of my cavalry units because whenever one fell down he'd take out 3-5 nearby horsemen.

Elephants should have 1-3 pachiderms in a unit.

I agree, but CA obviously like their elephants...

Heres a related question. I don't have the game yet (UK release date = this friday), and so I would like to know how common units of elephants are.

PS statistical point: saying '40000 men have 6000 elephants' implies that there is one unit of elephants for one unit of any other infantry.

Having used elephants in my Seleucid camp I can say that a unit of 20 elephants gets ground up pretty quick. Mostly because of the elephants emergency stop feature. Which consists of a hammer and spike.

Can't recall the name of that famous battle, where Hannibal attacked Rome (2nd Punic?) and kicked ass. History gurka's, help me out here. I think he had 27 elephants total. He marched them half way around the western Med to get them there. That must have been a feat.

Sidenote:
I now think differently of them. They are powerful, but they have some serious disadvantages and I think this balances it out.

- They have crap morale. Manage to kill one, and the whole unit usually goes to hell.
- Rout is one thing, but running amok is easier to obtain and unrecoverable from what I've seen.
- They will charge into a phalanx. LoL!!
- They are very expensive.
- As a cavalry unit, they are slow. Hell, skirmishers can easily out endure and outrun them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Praylak

Can't recall the name of that famous battle, where Hannibal attacked Rome (2nd Punic?) and kicked ass. History gurka's, help me out here. I think he had 27 elephants total. He marched them half way around the western Med to get them there. That must have been a feat.

---

Trebbia. After that all his elephants died except 'the Syrian' which thereafter carried Hannibal himself.

Do like Pontus did to me....get a couple catapults and fire fireballs at them.....with a little luck you`ll score a hit which will kill a couple and rout them before you get close.
D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beelzebub

There's too many of them in an elephant unit. For normal sizes, 6 elephants compared to 40 in regular units is ridiculously out of propoprtion. Imagine if the ancients had that ratio? 40000 men have 6000 elephants? Seems the only way to rout them unless you bring a long super anti-elephant troops (pigs) is to surround them with swarms of men, and you'll lose a ton in the process. Even when you rout them, they'll do some damage as you cut them down while fleeing, 6 routing elephants destroyed half of 2 of my cavalry units because whenever one fell down he'd take out 3-5 nearby horsemen.

Elephants should have 1-3 pachiderms in a unit.

---

You used cavalry!?!?!? Elephants get a bonus vs cavalry. Just use a cheap unit of Velite (about 200ish Denarii). They are able to rout the elephants quite easily. Even if they fail, so what? The elephants cost about 2000 Denarii, so even if it takes 3 units, you still come out ahead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Psyco

You used cavalry!?!?!? Elephants get a bonus vs cavalry. Just use a cheap unit of Velite (about 200ish Denarii). They are able to rout the elephants quite easily. Even if they fail, so what? The elephants cost about 2000 Denarii, so even if it takes 3 units, you still come out ahead.

---

true story

my brother was playing his Scipii campaign last night and was seiging a settlement and an army came up behind him with a unit of elephants. he needed to take the city fast as well as neutralize the elephants. I told him to use his Velites against the elephants and it worked much better than either of us anticipated. The velites tossed their javs and got the eles attention - they proceeded to chase the much faster velites all over the map - away from the city. The elephants ended up not doing anything but at the end were at the edge of the map still trying to take on teh Velites and were Shaken, Exhausted - so one Fresh unit coming in would probably have totally ruled those elephants.

3-4 velites is a small price to pay to get rid of the phants. Horse archers would be great aswell.

There is only 12 Elephants (but 30ish men) in an elephant group, on the default size setting (large I think).

Hanibal started with lots of Elephants but most of the died in the Alps.

And Triarii stand up to them very well, I think they're quite well balanced for their price.

I agree completely about the scale problem with elephants. About 3 per unit would be manageable with the game engine. The scaling needs to be a bit different for units like elephants, than for infantry, but not like it is at present.

I had a revolt in Carthage as Scipii. There was a huge stack attacking me with four elephant units and several nice cav. I tried every trick I could. Javelins and velites had no effect. I couldn't kill any elephants and my entire army routed in seconds. I had to attack this army in three more battles and kill off everyone else in the army before I could engage the elephants properly and kill them. This was the point at which I concluded that cav heavy armies with a bit of trash infantry and slingers/archers were what RTW likes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

I agree completely about the scale problem with elephants. About 3 per unit would be manageable with the game engine. The scaling needs to be a bit different for units like elephants, than for infantry, but not like it is at present.

I had a revolt in Carthage as Scipii. There was a huge stack attacking me with four elephant units and several nice cav. I tried every trick I could. Javelins and velites had no effect. I couldn't kill any elephants and my entire army routed in seconds. I had to attack this army in three more battles and kill off everyone else in the army before I could engage the elephants properly and kill them. This was the point at which I concluded that cav heavy armies with a bit of trash infantry and slingers/archers were what RTW likes.

---

I've had one unit of Triarii rout two units of Elephants and have about 50 men remaining afterwards.

I've had one unit of Triarii kill and rout about 4 units of Macedonian lancers alone, while being flanked and hit from every direction.

Can you build Triarii? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

I agree completely about the scale problem with elephants. About 3 per unit would be manageable with the game engine. The scaling needs to be a bit different for units like elephants, than for infantry, but not like it is at present.

I had a revolt in Carthage as Scipii. There was a huge stack attacking me with four elephant units and several nice cav. I tried every trick I could. Javelins and velites had no effect. I couldn't kill any elephants and my entire army routed in seconds. I had to attack this army in three more battles and kill off everyone else in the army before I could engage the elephants properly and kill them. This was the point at which I concluded that cav heavy armies with a bit of trash infantry and slingers/archers were what RTW likes.

---

that's disheartening

I played dozens of battles in teh demo trying to figure out some kind of counter to elephants with no avail. I was hoping this would be changed in the full version. I haven't come across elephants yet myself, but using velites seem to work up to a point - but I guess when you are against more than one unit of them it doesn't really go like butter.

I think 3 woudl be good - 4 or 5 might be better, and then the cost of them would be less as well. They're supposed to be huge shock troops which are usually just a one-shot thing where if they work, they're gods - if not, they're breakfast.

My god the hysteria in all the posts across the forum.

Cavalry is overpowered, no Elephants are overpowered, no Hoplites are overpowered.

Sit down, play the game, and learn how to counter these units. In 2 months time if people are still complaining X is overpowered then we have a problem.

Spears beat Elephants (remember the little spears beat cavalry forumla, who would have thought?). I have replays to prove it, Triarii are not that hard to get - I had them in 250BC.

Please, play the game and get some experiance before spouting hysteria after hysteria about a unit you didn't counter correctly. The original post in this topic just screams "Rock beats scissors! Make rock weaker because all I used was scissors, My scissors should beat everything!!!"

Oh also to the original poster on your Elephants routing comment.

More hysteria, Elephants ONLY KILL WHEN THEY THROW UNITS UP IN THE AIR. ALL TRAMPLED UNITS GET BACK UP.
One example I remember is I've had a unit of enemy elephants rout through my line like this

Elephant -> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

It trampled every one of them (looked pretty funny too) and they all got back up again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morindin

I've had one unit of Triarii rout two units of Elephants and have about 50 men remaining afterwards.

I've had one unit of Triarii kill and rout about 4 units of Macedonian lancers alone, while being flanked and hit from every direction.

Can you build Triarii? :)

---

I had some triarii in one or two of the battles and I put them up to face the elephants with their flank anchored by some rock. They held for awhile while the velites and hastati and principes routed. They probably did the best overall of the units I tried. They were typical RTW battles: swirling mass with the main battle line engagement over in seconds. I would use cav to pick off any isolated units, and rally other infantry, etc. to attack any overextended enemy before the units came and crushed me again. I would really like to know why pila had no effect on the pachiderms... In the final battle I used cav and skirmishers to separate the elephant units and kill them (with heavy losses to myself.) It was pretty depressing to have three armies of good troops annihilated by four units of elephants (with supporting cast.)

I experimented some with loose formation. But that doesn't work when you have cav and infantry hitting you as well.

I did lack archers.

If your Triarii can surround the Elephants they go down fairly quickly and panic after 3 or 4 of them are dead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morindin

My god the hysteria in all the posts across the forum.

Cavalry is overpowered, no Elephants are overpowered, no Hoplites are overpowered.

Sit down, play the game, and learn how to counter these units. In 2 months time if people are still complaining X is overpowered then we have a problem.

Spears beat Elephants (remember the little spears beat cavalry forumla, who would have thought?). I have replays to prove it, Triarii are not that hard to get - I had them in 250BC.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

It trampled every one of them (looked pretty funny too) and they all got back up again.

---

Oh, stow it. It is not hysteria. I've probably already played more battles than you. Triarii didn't cut it. Repeat, they didn't work. Neither did pila. And the Romans used various units to deal with the elephants, not just triarii. Of course it gets back to the kill speed and overall battle speed being supercharged and the two second routs. Of course, a four elephant unit army with 6 per unit is like having a thousand elephants on the field...without the upkeep or cost.

Back when we had only the demo I modded to reduce the unit size. Somewhere around 3 beasts per unit they became manageable. Still dangerous, but manageable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morindin

If your Triarii can surround the Elephants they go down fairly quickly and panic after 3 or 4 of them are dead.

---

Yeah, like the rest of the army is going to stand around and wait while I take on a single elephant unit with a couple of triarii. Get real.

I dont care what the Romans used in the past to deal with Elephants.

In the COMPUTER GAME Triarii work fine, I have replays (from multiplayer) and WILL post them tonight when I get home.
Considering the cost of Elephants vs the cost of Triarii even if it takes two units to down one unit of Elephant that's still a win win for the Romans.

Im not sure why you are not having any success. I can guess though.
Just because you havnt properly learnt how to deal with Elephants doesnt mean you should scream out on the messageboards how overpowered they are.

When I first encountered them unsuccessfully I posted a topic stating my successes and my unsuccesses against them and asked everyone elses opinion, not starting topics ranting on about history and how things should work in my own little world.

Quote:

---

Yeah, like the rest of the army is going to stand around and wait while I take on a single elephant unit with a couple of triarii. Get real.

---

This is a ridiculous statement and a waste of my bandwidth really. I could say the same about the rest of my army, or about spears vs horses in MTW, or anything really. Why did you even post this?

Most battles evolve like this. Someone sends in something that counters something, then the other person sends in the other counter, etc etc etc.

No, your statements are ridiculous.

First, this is supposed to be historically based. Historical tactics should work and unit size should have some sense of scale. Kill rates should make some sense. Rout speed should make some sense. When they don't, we comment. Pila should have some effect on these beasts. As it is, they don't.

Second, it is preposterous to believe that the overall effect in battle is unimportant and only single unit matchups matter. I'm quite good at using units in the field. However, with RTW I don't get to use them effectively in groups of more than a handful. Why? Because gameplay is MUCH too fast and there are problems with the basic engine. I'm very good at using counters and looking for good matchups and flanking. However, units that should hold for quite some time break in seconds. That is why I've gone to light cav based armies. And I'm tearing up the AI with them on "very hard." I use cav rushes or pick at the periphery. What gives me trouble? The Numidians javs because they are very fast.

Third, I could care less about your multiplayer exploits because I'm talking about SP. It clearly shows the problem with your argument--apples to oranges. Can the other player issue commands as rapidly as the AI? Can the other player do the schooling fish thing with his units and cav? No, those are AI features. Post meaningless replays if you like, I won't bother with them.

Armored phants are pretty tough, took me 5 units of Triarii to down 1 unit of them
(basic valour/weapons, very hard diff, large units size)

Take it easy guys.

Now I had a poke around the TWC forums and I found a thread there about Anti-Elephant tactics.

According to what i have read (can't test it except probably if I mod the demo)

if you are without Missiles (Archers are the units of choice with flaming arrows, followed by velites and skirmishers) Spearmen can deal with elephant units if they bog them down. One tactic that was sugguested was making sure your men are in guard mode and loose formation before the charge, this aparantly prevents too many of them dying in the initial charge phase...

Cavalry are even sugguested in a flanking attack... (given their spears) but they must not slug it out.

Other tactics mentioned included the use of Horse archers and chariots, or even siege weapons.

When Friday comes around I'll be able to join in the testing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

No, your statements are ridiculous.

First, this is supposed to be historically based. Historical tactics should work and unit size should have some sense of scale. Kill rates should make some sense. Rout speed should make some sense. When they don't, we comment. Pila should have some effect on these beasts. As it is, they don't.

Second, it is preposterous to believe that the overall effect in battle is unimportant and only single unit matchups matter. I'm quite good at using units in the field. However, with RTW I don't get to use them effectively in groups of more than a handful. Why? Because gameplay is MUCH too fast and there are problems with the basic engine. I'm very good at using counters and looking for good matchups and flanking. However, units that should hold for quite some time break in seconds. That is why I've gone to light cav based armies. And I'm tearing up the AI with them on "very hard." I use cav rushes or pick at the periphery. What gives me trouble? The Numidians javs because they are very fast.

Third, I could care less about your multiplayer exploits because I'm talking about SP. It clearly shows the problem with your argument--apples to oranges. Can the other player issue commands as rapidly as the AI? Can the other player do the schooling fish thing with his units and cav? No, those are AI features. Post meaningless replays if you like, I won't bother with them.

---

First, its supposed to be a game with historical references, not the other way around. That's your first problem.

Second, all my experiances with Triarii have been in battles against Humans and the AI. I havnt even touched the custom battle screen for any "experiments". Dont make assumptions. Also the fast pace of a battle can be completely nullified by having a good initial deployment, and as your units get stronger they rate of death gets slower.

Third I am not using multiplayer "exploits". The replays I post will be mainly from "histroical battles". Humans cant issue orders as fast as an AI but you also cant pause in multiplayer. And besides, a unit of elephants even not issued any orders will still attack everything in its path once let lose.

As for the replays, fine. Dont watch them but if you think you know it all about a game that has barely been out for a week, and refuse to listen or watch other peopls ideas you wont learn anything, and youll keep losing. No skin off my nose.

I think you need to sort your out what you expect from a computer game. When I fly planes in LOMAC, I hardly expect everything to be perfectly 100% accurate (which is impossible) and I remember it is a game, and have fun doing so.

Besides, why dont you put away RTW and go back to MTW? Or at least give the game a month before considering yourself an "Expert" on the game and pointing out all the "imbalances".

Loose formation is critical with the triarii but I found it better to charge them just as they get to you rather then stand and recieve the charge in guard mode.

The other thing is make your front line is long and have atleast 1 unit in a second rank position to reinforce the center.

First take a look at this screenshot. This is from a game I had a while back.
http://www.flyingfish.co.nz/rtw/dve/08.jpg

The elephants have ripped through my Legions like butter, a badly hurt unit of Triarii are engaging them. Another one is getting read to be sent in.

http://www.flyingfish.co.nz/rtw/dve/11.jpg

My second unit of Triarii kicks the Elephants butt, sending them routing off in all directions (practically harmless as they only kill men with their bucks). Notice how many Triarii are still intact, heaps!

Also take note there is only one dead elephant in the breach. Most of the elephants died when my Triarii surrounded them and engaged them outside of the breach.

Elephants are like modern day tanks, very tough on the front but they do have their weaknesses.

LOL, Morindin. You just proved my point. THANKS!!! Look at what those elephants did despite the confined space and number of units they were facing. And I don't see other troops on the ground supporting the elephants (just dead men.) When I face them I don't get a nice little set piece like this. Talk about a stacked deck, and it was still ugly. How long would the triarii have survived in loose formation vs. infantry supporting the elephants? Not long.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

LOL, Morindin. You just proved my point. THANKS!!! Look at what those elephants did despite the confined space and number of units they were facing. And I don't see other troops on the ground supporting the elephants (just dead men.) When I face them I don't get a nice little set piece like this. Talk about a stacked deck, and it was still ugly. How long would the triarii have survived in loose formation vs. infantry supporting the elephants? Not long.

---

This is a circular argument you realise. If there was no breach he could get his troops in to support his elephants but I could also use mine to support my Triarii!

Fact of the matter, Elephants are tough to take down but not impossible. Your infantry should be fighting their infantry, I know its not as simple as that but there you go. I have played heaps of games against Elephants in a combined arms situation (such as the historical battle from the Demo) against the AI and human opponents and guess what, Triarii STILL kick their butts (especially the non armoured ones).

You cant just make blanket statements that "Elephants + soldiers kill triarii". Of COURSE they do. But do "Elephants + Soldiers kill Triarii + Cavalry" ? No.

In that matchup situation the later would win, but again this is a circular argument and we could go on all day. I have provided evidence of Elephants losing against thier matchup. What have you provided apart from arrogence?

A unit is only "overpowered" if it beats its matchup at a cost effective ratio, i.e. FMAA in MTW is a classic example. Not only do elephants lose against their matchup, but two units of Triarii cost about 1500 and one unit of Elephants is what, over 2000?

If you are losing in a combined arms situation and Elephants are the main contributor to that, I suggest you either use better tactics such as isolating his main force FROM his elephants using bait, or, revise your own armies to make the matchup more suitable.

What exactly is your problem with them anyway? Do they wipe out your infantry too quickly? If they have a lot of elephants you should have an advantage in numbers somewhere, and be ready for the fact your going to sustain a lot of casualties. Who cares though if the amount of men you lose on a cost based ratio is less than the cost of those Elephants.

Oh and I won that game BTW. I managed to rout his other groups of Elephants using fire from my siege. Elephants are definately a double edged sword. All it requires is adaptive thinking to meet the challange.

*chuckle* Red, Morindin, there can be only one solution to this problem.

Ten rounds of bare knuckle boxing. I'll ref.

Failing that, you two have got to get together for some MP tests. A few trial runs could probably settle this debate quickly. First we'll give Red all cav, and Morindin all spears. Morindin should win easily. If he doesn't, there's a problem. If he does, then we can begin to look at this in more detail. (just because an all-spear army can beat an all-cav army does not mean the game is balanced...then we'd have to move on to cost issues...etc.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleRaven

*chuckle* Red, Morindin, there can be only one solution to this problem.

Ten rounds of bare knuckle boxing. I'll ref.

Failing that, you two have got to get together for some MP tests. A few trial runs could probably settle this debate quickly. First we'll give Red all cav, and Morindin all spears. Morindin should win easily. If he doesn't, there's a problem. If he does, then we can begin to look at this in more detail. (just because an all-spear army can beat an all-cav army does not mean the game is balanced...then we'd have to move on to cost issues...etc.)

---

I have no problem with this, but firstly Red "doesnt do multiplayer" and the human "cant make decisions at once" etc etc etc excuses excuses excuses.

Im not saying the game is balanced. Im arguing that the game is barely week old and NONE of us are experianced enough to make blanket statements about the game based on a couple of battles.

We might find out tomorrow that town watch are overpowered against Elephants, who knows.

I see circular logic alright. You post a stacked deck "proof" and call me arrogant. Their are some big time problems with the speed of this engine. It is making the cav much more powerful than they should be.

When I've bought elephants they were about 1250 per unit. I think their total upkeep was less than the two Triarii as well...

I don't think there is anything left for the two of us to discuss.

Cavalry is about the only thing that is the RIGHT speed in this game. Ive ridden plenty of horses by the way.
If anything its INFANTRY which is too fast which would REDUCE the effectiveness of cavalry.

Actually it has nothing to do with speed at all, but more to do with the fact the AI is pretty pathetic at protecting its flanks according to most people. From what Ive seen of the AI so far it makes a point of protecting its flanks against cavalry but you can catch it out with large numbers.
Also spear units in the game come generally later ill reserve my judgement about cavalry until I consider myself experianced in the entire campaign.

Due to all the hype last night about cavalry I attacked the British would a large army of Roman Cavalry units. I danced them around all over the place, hit flanks, recharged and charged again (he had 0 spear units) and I still took considerable casualties. In the end I lost because his damn chariots kept scaring away my troops. I managed to rout a lot of his troops for sure, but it didnt feel overpowered in any way. Cavalry after all is the infantrys match up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morindin

Im arguing that the game is barely week old and NONE of us are experianced enough to make blanket statements about the game based on a couple of battles.

---

Weren't you the guy who started another thread yesterday with the blanket statement that 'naval battles are crap'? Come on, Morindin, it's only fair to allow for other peoples' complaints. I'm on your side though, even though I don't have the game yet, because I appreciate your single-handed fight to give the developers a fair chance. Besides it's a bad thing if everyone starts modding and patching and customizing tactics and strategy. In no time we'll all be playing an entirely different game and any discussion of tactics on these boards will be a dialogue of the deaf. ~:eek:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleRaven

*chuckle* Red, Morindin, there can be only one solution to this problem.

Ten rounds of bare knuckle boxing. I'll ref.

---

Okay ladies, square off. Handbags at twenty paces...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdrianII

Weren't you the guy who started another thread yesterday with the blanket statement that 'naval battles are crap'? Come on, Morindin, it's only fair to allow for other peoples' complaints. I'm on your side though, even though I don't have the game yet, because I appreciate your single-handed fight to give the developers a fair chance. Besides it's a bad thing if everyone starts modding and patching and customizing tactics and strategy. In no time we'll all be playing an entirely different game and any discussion of tactics on these boards will be a dialogue of the deaf. ~:eek:

---

Just for the sake of an argument this is what I posted

Quote:

---

Anyone else feel naval battles are just, well, crap?

Im not asking for a 3d battlefield or anything like that, but I seem to lose about 90% of my naval battles regardless of quality or quantity of my ships.

Also the fact its near on impossible to destroy ones fleet makes naval battles for me more irritating than fun.

At least the AI builds LOTS of ships.

---

In other words, im not making a blanket statement about the game but asking other peoples opinions to see if I am doing something wrong.
In that example, I got a post from someone saying "try this" and I am indeed going to try it.

Thats different from saying "Elephants are overpowered because they beat their match up. CA should DO THIS AND THIS TO MAKE ME HAPPY! *throws toys out of the cott"

~;p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LittleRaven

*chuckle* Red, Morindin, there can be only one solution to this problem.

Ten rounds of bare knuckle boxing. I'll ref.

---

That would hardly be fair. I'm an amateur boxer... Plus, when I've fought bare knuckle I tended to break a knuckle or two.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morindin

CA should DO THIS AND THIS TO MAKE ME HAPPY! *throws toys out of the cott"

---

LOL, you've made your point I believe. Remember though that for most players historical detail and references are a huge part of the fun, if not their main reason for playing the game in the first place. Otherwise what's the point in playing a TW game instead of the single most brilliant abstract game in the world, i.e. chess? That's why they are 'nit-picking' as you would call it. It's impossible to recreate history, but the game has to have that 'feel' about it. That's a fine line. For some the killing speed is killing the game. For me the graphics are a horrible disappointment, no matter how brilliant the game may turn out to be with respect to tactics, the new integrated stategy map and other fantastic new features. Anyway I'll shut up until I have the game. ~:handball:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdrianII

LOL, you've made your point I believe. Remember though that for most players historical detail and references are a huge part of the fun, if not their main reason for playing the game in the first place. Otherwise what's the point in playing a TW game instead of the single most brilliant abstract game in the world, i.e. chess? That's why they are 'nit-picking' as you would call it. It's impossible to recreate history, but the game has to have that 'feel' about it. That's a fine line. For some the killing speed is killing the game. For me the graphics are a horrible disappointment, no matter how brilliant the game may turn out to be with respect to tactics, the new integrated stategy map and other fantastic new features. Anyway I'll shut up until I have the game. ~:handball:

---

I understand completely what you are saying, but my feeling on the matter is that people are judging their idea on realism in respect to killing speed from MTW. MTW was not any more realistic as RTW, infact how do we know what realism is anyway?
How many of us have fought in a battle recently? Sure we can quote battles going on all day but they involve massive numbers of men with multiple lines of battle, etc etc.

Im going to try the killing speed mod to see how I like it, but personally I feel its going to make battles between the stronger units go on and on and on and on. If I see cavalry charge into a bunch of infantry and get 'stuck' like in MTW I wont find that realistic at all.
I guess none of us really know so its all a matter of perspective isnt it?

That pretty much nails it Adrian. It's not nit picking when the battles don't resemble anything I've ever read about, and defy common sense finishing in less than a minute after initial melee. That is the problem a lot of us are having with RTW. So despite people like Morindin, we will come here to discuss what looks wonked and HOW TO FIX IT!

Right now I can see the influence of RTS on this game in the battlefield gameplay. It might make multi-player click festers like Morindin happy, but it poses problems for the historical SP TW crowd.

I don't like having to play modded versions to get things working right, but I guess I'll have to unless they tone things down with a patch.

You know there is nothing wrong with slow methodical games, infact I quite enjoy hexed based war games myself where you have all day to think about flanking manouvers and tactics.

I also enjoy RTS, flight sims, FPS, and chess, all sorts of games,

Sure I can accept its not as realistic for you, no problem with that at all. But to say its somehow "dumbed down" and less tactical before is my main beef.

It just requires a bit more use of the pause key and more thinking on you feet. Morale, flanking, all that is STILL IN THE GAME and its THOSE things that make the game more tactical than others.

I'd challange you on the clickfest point too, id say its now more a hotkey fest than it ever was, and infact, ironically, most RTS games are more hotkeys than clicking. Diablo games are "click fest".

Also more on the realism point, I really enjoy realism in simulation games. The more realistic the better, but I do know where to draw the line between gameplay and tedium. RTW is a game and claims to be nothing more.
There are some things in RTW that are highly unrealistic (infantry speeds and killing speeds) but there were 100x more things in MTW that were unrealistic, and I'd rather go forward than backwards.

If something kicks my ass (like Elephants) and I used a tactic I thought was sound, I dont ask CA to change to game for me, I find a way to beat the suckers.
I guess changing the game to me feels like cheating. RTW was made to be fast and furious. It may not be realistic I agree but its the way the game was made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morindin

It just requires a bit more use of the pause key

---

What's that? ~;)

I love mods, most of the time they are better then the game they were made for. Especially in an SP game they allow you to make the game the way you want it. Even if RTW was completely free of "warcraft-ish" influences there would always be somethng to complain about. If it's not one thing it's another. Sometimes the best games are not what comes directly from the box. Mods allow us to fix as many of those issues as we can get our hands on, be they personal or factual. What I don't like seeing is folks that see a small leak in a ship and cry that it's sinking and nothing can save them instead of fixing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thoros of Myr

What's that? ~;)

I love mods, most of the time they are better then the game they were made for. Especially in an SP game they allow you to make the game the way you want it. Even if RTW was completely free of "warcraft-ish" influences there would always be somethng to complain about. If it's not one thing it's another. Sometimes the best games are not what comes directly from the box. Mods allow us to fix as many of those issues as we can get our hands on, be they personal or factual. What I don't like seeing is folks that see a small leak in a ship and cry that it's sinking and nothing can save them instead of fixing it.

---

I like the ability to mod what you dont like in the game as well, infact some of the most successful games have also been the ones that are easiest to mod.

One thing I dont like though is people claiming this and that after hardly any playtesting time and the developers changing it completely unbalancing the game.

Example, it happend in MTW 1.1 with spear units, and ive seen it happen over and over with plenty of other games.

One theory I have about all the cool interface features in MTW that didnt appear in RTW is because both games were being made at the same time.
Perhaps the devs put more initial effort into MTW or even did parts of RTW first before doing MTW. By the time they came to solely working on RTW to go back and change these things would put them behind schedual.

Yes there is a trend to make the game more classic RTS style (right click etc, the interface, etc) to make it easier for new players, I dont think its been dumbed down at all though. For example the strategic level is far more challanging than MTW ever was.

I also think the deeper we get into this game the more challanging it will get. There is a lot of depth to it.

Ok guys i have done a bit of testing in the demo...

All units were V0, no mismatches and the battle was out in the open on the tutorial map.

Two units of Triarii engaged a unit of Armoured Elephants in Loose formation. End result, a lot of dead Triarii and one elephant being slain.

I replayed the same battle with the troops in close formation and a unit of Hastati thrown in, here is what happened...

The Elephants charged right past the Hastatii who were placed right out in front and aimed for the General's unit of Triarii, he took a heavy beating all throughout the battle. The Hastati threw their Pila in as the Second unit of Triarii engaged the Elephants from the rear... One elephant went down, another one swiftly followed.

The battle dragged on as the General's unit suffered the brunt of the attack... So finally the Hastati charged in (yeah fat load of good they would do with their puny swords), after that Two more Armoured Elephants fell including the one that carried the Carthaginian General!! ~:eek:

The Armoured Elephants were then routed. My units started off at full strength of 60 men... I wound up with 10 men in the general's Triarii Unit (told you he suffered badly), 47 men in the other Triarii unit, (that means effectivley I had enough Triarii survivors to nearly make a full unit of them) The Hastati were down to 35 men.

The armoured Elephants were the standard unit size of 9 elephants... Effectively I had delt with them by sacrificing a unit of Triarii and half a unit of Hastati!!

Had I been more careful and put the general to loose formation when the Elephants charged him, I would certainly have lost fewer men in that initial charge.

Just a question, but has anyone ever tried using those...pigs?
I know you don´t like them, but perhaps you should try them against elephants, but then again, i should get the game tomorrow. ~D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Husar

Just a question, but has anyone ever tried using those...pigs?
I know you don´t like them, but perhaps you should try them against elephants, but then again, i should get the game tomorrow. ~D

---

When playing Rome, I always have one unit of bacon packers in my main armies and frontier garrisons. IMO its the cheapest, easiest, and fastest way to get those pachiderms running.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

That would hardly be fair. I'm an amateur boxer... Plus, when I've fought bare knuckle I tended to break a knuckle or two.

---

Oh lord. Amatuer boxing means zilch. I've fought people who were into "karate" or "amatuer boxing". Ya, they were tough, untill we actually fought. I'd look out Morindin, I think this guy is :furious3: IRL and wants to punch you out O.o

On the intraweb I am 8 feet tall, have a 36 inch penii and I shoot lazer beams out of my anus. I am a jujitsu world champ and my daddy can beat up your daddy.

Oh and btw, if you tend to "break a knuckle or two" when you fight, you either 1) do not know how to punch 2) Have some bone density problems. ANYONE who knows anything about proper punching technique knows that hitting someone/thing properly is like hitting a golf ball properly or a baseball. You don't even feel it, its hitting the sweet spot.

I'd go see a doctor have those rat claws you call hands checked out.

Osbot,

On the boxing subject...

The broken knuckles came from bare knuckle fights before I started boxing amateur. With adrenaline flowing I didn't really feel the damage until after the fight. All it takes is hitting something hard (like a forehead) at a less than perfect angle. Folks don't stand stationary for that... Most boxers I know won't hit someone bare knuckle if they can avoid it, because of the tendency to screw up their hands. Even with gloves and wraps it is easy to get hand injuries--happens to the pro's all the time. I hit so much harder now than I did back in pre-boxing days that I really don't want to risk a hand injury. I've noticed the same increase in power when coaching new boxers, their hitting power improves several fold as they learn how to shift their weight and drive into the punch.

The serious amateurs are better boxers than most of the pro's. The biggest difference I see is that most pro's can take more punishment. Durability vs. technique. Boxing as a sport is much better in the amateurs.

~:cheers:

you should see my knuckles, they're covered with scabs where i tore the skin off punching people/things. Trust me, humans are harder objects than they look.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemonArchangel

you should see my knuckles, they're covered with scabs where i tore the skin off punching people/things. Trust me, humans are harder objects than they look.

---

Amen.

I've got a set of bag gloves that will skin my knuckles when pounding the heavy water bag no matter how I wrap my knuckles. I tore the knuckles up pretty badly once my power improved. I finally had to switch to heavy bag gloves, problem solved.

elephants do tons of damage but they can be beaten.

After two days of playing I no longer fear them. When I encounter elephants I tend to lose more men than normal. But I can still beat them. Keep your men mobile and when you have to get hit put your Hestati into Guard. They will last longer.

Then CHarge the elephants from all around while hammering with Javelins and arrows.

There is also a post about wardogs. They are good for keeping the elephants busy while you rout the main force. The pups will reduce their morale. Once that happens it is hard to lose. The elephants also seem to have HPs. Sustained fire will slowly wear them down. First few hits will seem to have no effect but maintain fire it will.

Remember too, much depends on the ground you stand on. Flanking. and generals. If you face elephants led by a high valour gen you may be toast. Unless you have mass numbers of quality troops.

Sigh here we go again ELEPHANTSARE TO POWERFULL THEY CAN BEAT MY HVY INF!! well news flash thats what theyre supposed to do. Elephants are easily countered, and can also be a weapon for the opponenet as well if you know how. Now im not talking flamig pigs (whichi refuse to use, along with flaming arrows and artillery). If some player lets me charge elephants into his hvy infantry then what does he/she expect? Its like shouting your scissor beat my paper!! or your rock beat my scissor!! For a start units which are being charged by elephants should immediatly be put on open formation (this will reduce casualties alot - eventhe ingame advisor tells you to do this), in mp battles elephants cost 1250 or so denari, now considering most play 10,000 denari that leaves under 9k for 19 more units. So certainly no cost issue and i dont see a cost issue in sp gmae either due to upkeep and cost.

I wont diverge all my tactics for elephants as half the fun is finding out for yourself, someone earlier said triaria (good call) phalanx works just as well if not better, a stationary phalanx i mean or at least one in somesort of order. Months ago on time commanders neusbacher was talking about how to deal with elephants and ca seem to have taken it on board, missles, light infantry phalanx. and if u cant manage that and want to use them the u can always use pigs..........

I wonder if these people who complain that their hvy inf get mashed even had thos units on fire at will (if romaan units) as you will deliver a painful pilum volley to the elephants b4 they hit, and if u have 4 units side by side then thats 4 volleys on 1 elephant unit.

Experiment abit the games not been out long....were all learning but i dont think everyone should shout imbalance first chance they get. Cav overpowered? U havent seent he 90% roman foot armies in action online i guess.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Swoosh So

Experiment abit the games not been out long....were all learning but i dont think everyone should shout imbalance first chance they get.

---

:medievalcheers:

try the catapults with fire, they rock versus elephants.

try 8 armoured elephants versus 8 catapults in a custom battle, the Catapults win everytime.

you ony need to hit one or 2 elephants and they go bezerk. also, the exploding fire all around them in kinda bad for morale.


had a several bridgebattles yesterday.
I had only 3 legoin cohorts and 6 catapults.
AI got a full army. by the time they reach my side, they're already running....
I always pack 2-3 catapults in mly army. when they gain experience, the're accuracy is even far better. (silver cevron catapult hits 30-35%, thus one out of 3 volleys)

Frankly, I love all of the animal units. War dogs, elephants, camels, I just can't get enough. I think my ideal army could consist of war hounds, armored elephants, a wing of flaming pigs and some camels.

I'm probably just weird.

Probably :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silencer

try the catapults with fire, they rock versus elephants.

try 8 armoured elephants versus 8 catapults in a custom battle, the Catapults win everytime.

you ony need to hit one or 2 elephants and they go bezerk. also, the exploding fire all around them in kinda bad for morale.


had a several bridgebattles yesterday.
I had only 3 legoin cohorts and 6 catapults.
AI got a full army. by the time they reach my side, they're already running....
I always pack 2-3 catapults in mly army. when they gain experience, the're accuracy is even far better. (silver cevron catapult hits 30-35%, thus one out of 3 volleys)

---

o(w)nagers are just crazy when used right. it can win you almost any battle. In fact, in most battles I played after introducing 2 pairs of o(w)nagers per army, the greatest losses of my troops are from my own o(w)nagers accidentally firing at them.

But on topic:
Elephants should be countered not by spearmen, but my ranged fire. Like horse archer, normal archers, skirmishers... etc. Just light troops. Light troops have more chance of walking free of the elephant, turning the elephants, and peppering them so they flee.
In fact, I have never as yet sent any cavalry or infantry against them. That's just asking for trouble I think. I bought some mercenary war elephants (at a hefty 4000 dinarii), and the way I use them is against heavy infantry and cavalry, NOT against skirmishers or archers.

The few times I encountered elephants, I set my archers on firing flaming arrows, and just pepper them for a long time, add a javalin unit and they are either kept busy for the battle, or flee/run amok. Note that you probably won't kill many elephants this way, but when you route, you can give chase and kill them more easily. Also, if you destory most of the rest of the army, chances are the whole army will disband (including the elephants).

Really, what do you expect, that shields protect you from an elephant trampling you? defense doesn't matter vs elephants (in fact, lower defense might mean more manouvrability sometimes, which is alot better) or that you can spear an elephant running around?
Elephants are big targets, archers and skirmishers easily hit them.

Well, that's my personal experience from the battefield, so I might have a different RTW version, or just been lucky, but for me it works.
And o(w)nagers are just crazy (when used right).

Yell at me all you want but elephants ARE unbalanced, not because they trash heavy infantry but because they're too damn tough to take down. I was expecting elephants in RTW to be like those seen in Time Commanders; extremely dangerous but vulnerable to light troops and concentrated missile fire. Instead I get Giant-Four-Legged-Pink-Bastard-Tanks from hell. Let me share with you a recent story...

I'm currently playing a modded campaign as Armenia on Hard/Hard with Large sized units. Beyond the fact that Armenia is playable I am using Adonys' Kill Rate mod (.5 setting) which only effects melee speeds. The Selecuids decided to siege one of my cities with four units; one unit of Phalanx Pikemen, two units of Levy Phalanx Pikemen and one unit of War Elephants (12 pachyderms in all, the unarmored kind with the two archers on top). I sallied out of the city with the following: one 80 man unit of javelin wielding Peltasts, 1 120 man unit of Eastern Infantry, two 20 man General units (Eastern Heavy Cavalry, armed with javelins) and four 54 man Horse Archer units. Sounds like pretty good odds eh?

I sallied through the side gates so I could flank them. Eventually the Seleucids were effectively sandwiched between my lines and were fidgeting about trying to figure out which way to face. I then ordered my four Horse Archer units to get within range and fire exclusively on the elephants. Two Horse Archer units to the elephants' front, two directly to their rear and all four HA units were stationary while firing. After several volleys I noticed not a single elephant had been killed but the pike unit directly in front of them was taking casualties. I thought, "Hey, my Horse Archers are not aiming at the elephants like I ordered them to!" so I double checked and saw that the arrows were actually landing amongst the elephants but the combined short and long shots from both sides were killing those pikemen. The odd thing is whenever I right clicked on the elephants units to target them the arrow blinked from red to yellow as if all my HA units were not in range and couldn't fire. Why was it doing that if the HA units were clearly in range? Anyway, out of frustration I sent forth my Peltast unit to fill those pachyderms full of javelins... two volleys gave me nothing. I then reconcentrated my HA fire on the pikemen and hoped that if the elephants were the only unit left the AI would retreat them. Not a chance. After all three pike units were filled full of arrows and routed the elephants proceeded to charge my two general units around the map while the archers riding shotgun were slowly picking them off. The general units were in skirmish mode and chucking javelins at the elephants while running but of course, not a single elephant bought the farm. Out of desperation I charged the elephants with my Peltast and Eastern Infantry units. In no time my infantry routed with nothing to show for it, not even a brief moment of panic for the elephants which by now were EXHAUSTED. Even the rapid fire arrow towers around my city didn't make an impression on them when the elephants got too close to my city walls.

:help:

Why in blazes did CA make elephants so damn resiliant? To justify their cost or to please the RTS kiddies who think they're supposed to be four legged tanks of doom? I set up a perfect morale sapping killing zone that sends most AI units in a routing tizzy and yet those elephants survived unscathed. Taking arrow fire in the ass should have done something to them. In the battle prior to this I was confronted with a mixed force that included a single 50 man unit of Parthian Cataphracts, a hard nut to crack. And yet with similar flanking positions and fewer Horse Archers I managed to kill a little more than half of them. Last I checked cataphracts are supposed to be more impervious to missile fire than elephants so what gives?

Please spare me the "You need to use better tactics" speeches. When you sandwich 12 unarmored war elephants between 108 horse archers there ought to be a noticeable number of pachyderm carcasses on the ground. I wasn't looking for a massacre but was simply hoping to inflict enough rear/flanking shots on those elephants to cause them to panic and route off the field.

It's time to mod the unit stats...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spino

Yell at me all you want but elephants ARE unbalanced, not because they trash heavy infantry but because they're too damn tough to take down.

---

With all due respect Spino, Why didn't you use you Phalanx against the Elephants? This will drop an elephant like a sack of potatos. If you did try it and it didn't do anything I would reconsider that killrate-mod your using.

You know what would be cool? If arrows and other missiles could somehow snipe those damn archers and mahout.

It's like the elephant has a big force shield surrounding the towers and the mahout.

For a few of my armies I use a single base elephant unit in battle (more would be very unfair.) I use them to crush the heaviest infantry in the center while most of my cav tears up the flanks, and a few units chase behind the elephants routing the rest in the center. This is pretty similar to what the AI was doing to me with roles reversed.

I'm not sure how many battles I've used these elephants in, but so far I have lost exactly ONE elephant--even routing the pachys doesn't seem to cost me elephants. I am a bit protective of them and only use them for specific functions, but they are way overpowered. This is on "very hard" battle setting. (Note: I did lose all but one elephant in a unit to autocalc, but that is not relevant. And the final elephant was almost worthless...it would rout immediately in the desert, before anything even moved.)

I'm considering reducing their hit points some, and cut the base unit size in half. That might make them more vulnerable to javelins, pila, and archers. Frankly, the upkeep on these beasts is way too small. Maintaining a unit with that many elephants (scaled to army size) should cost about 750-1,000 per turn.

Unit stats do not indicate any bonus for Triarii vs. elephants, although peltasts get such bonuses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Praylak

With all due respect Spino, Why didn't you use you Phalanx against the Elephants? This will drop an elephant like a sack of potatos. If you did try it and it didn't do anything I would reconsider that killrate-mod your using.

---

Praylak you didn't read my post. I didn't have any phalanx troops to send against those elephants! The only thing I had infantry wise was one unit of Peltasts and one unit of Eastern Infantry. I wasn't sufficiently teched up to build Eastern Heavy Spearmen (this was still early on in the campaign) but I didn't think I needed them because up until that point I had trashed most phalanx heavy armies sent against me with pure cavalry armies loaded with Horse Archers. Only the Parthians gave me trouble as their armies were similar to mine. The point is 216 Horse Archers, 40 Eastern Heavy Cavalrymen, 80 Peltasts AND the guys in the Archer Towers along the walls, firing from different angles over a considerable period, could not kill a single war elephant out of a group of 12. That's simply ridiculous!

I did a number of tests last night using the custom battle feature. I set up one unit of 12 war elephants versus various types missile troops and the results were rather shocking. I'll do some more testing and report with the results.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spino

Praylak you didn't read my post. I didn't have any phalanx troops to send against those elephants!

---

My apologies, I misread who had the pikeman in question. Yup thats a damned situation.

Does anyone know what Hard level does to an elephants base stats?

Two units of Triarii can take down one unit of war elephants.

By take down I mean: kill enough of them to make them go Rampant for the rest of the game.

War Elephants cost 2600ish, Triarii ? 700? 800?

Doesnt sound unbalanced to me. Yes they can cause huge devistation, and yes not everyone has Triarii. I've only fought them in multiplayer.
Skirmishers are meant to take down Elephants but I havnt had much success using them at all (in custom tests), mind you I dont take them [skirmishers] in multiplayer games, and havnt encountered any elephants in single player yet.
Ill have to experiment with flaming arrows - but Triarii definately do the job.

One unit of Elephants can ruin your day, but just as easily it can go rampant and make your day.

War Elephants.
Are the powerful? Yes
Were they this powerful in history? Probably more so.
Are they overpowered? For 2600ish - no.
Are they overpowered in single player? Dont know, but changing them in single player would undoubtadly unbalance them in multiplayer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morindin

Two units of Triarii can take down one unit of war elephants.

By take down I mean: kill enough of them to make them go Rampant for the rest of the game.

War Elephants cost 2600ish, Triarii ? 700? 800?

Doesnt sound unbalanced to me. Yes they can cause huge devistation, and yes not everyone has Triarii. I've only fought them in multiplayer.

---

Well I was referring to the SP game. Haven't tried MP yet. In the wild and varied environment of a SP game no two sides even come close to being equal in value as they do in any given MP game. Therefore a single War Elephant unit (0 Experience, 0 Upgrades) employed against a relatively low tech army can be nearly unstoppable unless you're willing to sacrifice an awful lot of men to take it down. And even then, there's no guarantee that the act of swarming a single unit of elephants with all you got will succeed. It quickly becomes an unrealistic exercise that flies in the face of history and unsettles the rock, paper, scissors balance of the game. This means the AI is doomed against these units because it cannot handle that kind of threat assessment. My problem is that a large number of relatively low tech missile units won't do squat against a single unit of War Elephants, their Armor rating is too high and their Hit Points too numerous for most bow, javelin & sling units to have an effect. I've tested this in numerous custom battles (no timer) and it's ridiculous to watch a single unit of War Elephants completely surrounded by either Peltasts, Archers, Horse Archers or whatever have you and simply sit there completely unphased by the storm of missiles being fired at them.

Quote:

---

Skirmishers are meant to take down Elephants but I havnt had much success using them at all (in custom tests), mind you I dont take them [skirmishers] in multiplayer games, and havnt encountered any elephants in single player yet.
Ill have to experiment with flaming arrows - but Triarii definately do the job.

---

Most skirmisher missiles are worthless against war elephants and most skirmisher units are ill equipped to handle elephants in melee.

Flaming arrows work pretty well against them but it's a dicey proposition. By the time you get the necessary number of volleys needed to panic the elephants it's probably too late. And it's rare that you have the 'luxury' of facing a single unit of elephants and nothing more. Furthermore, horse archers units can't use flaming arrows.

Quote:

---

One unit of Elephants can ruin your day, but just as easily it can go rampant and make your day.

---

Absolutely. But my point is just how much do you have to sacrifice to make a single unit go bonkers?

Quote:

---

War Elephants.
Are the powerful? Yes
Were they this powerful in history? Probably more so.
Are they overpowered? For 2600ish - no.

---

Historically war elephants were not this powerful. They had a few spectacular successes here and there but for the most part their effect on the battlefield was largely psychological. To think of them as the ancient equivalent of 'tanks' is completely wrong. The countermeasures to them were numerous; light troops (missile and melee variety), lit torches, squealing pigs, flaming pigs, horses' blood (the smell frightened the elephants), and just generally poking them repeatedly with sharp implements until they flipped out and panicked.

Overpowered for 2600? Well no, I suppose they're worth it. But I'm not talking about denari and dracmas here... ~;)

Quote:

---

Are they overpowered in single player? Dont know, but changing them in single player would undoubtadly unbalance them in multiplayer.

---

Well unfortunately mods have a nasty tendency to do that... ~;)

Spino,

I'm with you.

I don't know why anyone would pay twice as much for War Elephants, when plain vanilla Elephants are all you need. And they walk right over triarii (literally!) I send a single elephant unit crashing into the center headed for the general while I work the wings with cav, and follow up the mess they create with charging cav down the center--the elephants might not cause a route alone, but the cav following them do, and the other cav will have wrecked the wings. The AI taught me this trick...and I believe it is better to give than receive. Hasn't caused me much grief if the elephants rout, as they tend to do so in the center of the enemy formation, LOL.

After an intensive RTW-experience I'm back again.. ~;)


Now I made some good test ranges vs Elephants since the demo and I will make a guide soon, but here are some basic points...


Elephant-killers...


Phalanx-units can stop them well - very well, my two German Warbands stop with some relative little losses the Armored Warelephants. They must be well ordered though

The Romans must rely on the Merc. Hoplite instead of the Triarii - this guys are their money well worth against these pesky animals

The Hellenic Phalangites with their longer spears are the bane of them - there is no way one of them makes it through the lines attacking from the front - at least on very heavy on my version in my tests..


More to come soon..

OA

If the man kills elephants with triarii in MP, he is the man to be listened carefully. Full respect

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oleander Ardens

After an intensive RTW-experience I'm back again.. ~;)


Now I made some good test ranges vs Elephants since the demo and I will make a guide soon, but here are some basic points...


Elephant-killers...


Phalanx-units can stop them well - very well, my two German Warbands stop with some relative little losses the Armored Warelephants. They must be well ordered though

The Romans must rely on the Merc. Hoplite instead of the Triarii - this guys are their money well worth against these pesky animals

The Hellenic Phalangites with their longer spears are the bane of them - there is no way one of them makes it through the lines attacking from the front - at least on very heavy on my version in my tests..


More to come soon..

OA

---

Oleander,

You are right about the Hellenic Phalangites with longer spears/and or larger units being show stoppers for the elephants. However, I've been able to crash the base level elephants through the 80 man phalangites. They hold up better than the triarii and really slow the beasts down, but the elephants make it through.

The problem with a few hoplites as a counter is twofold: 1. the infantry or cav behind the elephants will likely tip the scales in favor of the beasts. 2. It is not easy to use the hoplites in a mobile fashion to meet elephants frontally.

Those incindiary pigs rout the elephants immediately, LOL. Entertaining.

I ran these tests on medium.

I've been taking on(and killing) elephants with Hastati in my campaign. This last battle I just put my first two units of Hastati on defensive mode, then when the elephants broke through I brought my other units in using missles/surrounding them. They broke pretty quickly. Out of however many they get on max unit size only like five of them escaped to retreat, so I don't think they're that uber. The only time i've seen them be real killers is when I was stupid and sent my Equites against some elepahnts. Besides for that i've been killing them easily without taking abnormal losses.

I just treat them like I did king/prince cav units in M:TW. They're a threat, but only if left unchecked.

In my campaign a unit of elephants charged my pikemen phalanx. The elephants died the instant they touched the tips of my spears. Hardly overpowered. Normal difficulty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Oleander,

You are right about the Hellenic Phalangites with longer spears/and or larger units being show stoppers for the elephants. However, I've been able to crash the base level elephants through the 80 man phalangites. They hold up better than the triarii and really slow the beasts down, but the elephants make it through.

The problem with a few hoplites as a counter is twofold: 1. the infantry or cav behind the elephants will likely tip the scales in favor of the beasts. 2. It is not easy to use the hoplites in a mobile fashion to meet elephants frontally.

Those incindiary pigs rout the elephants immediately, LOL. Entertaining.

I ran these tests on medium.

---

This is the circular argument again.

If someone has elephants they also likely to have a sever disadvantage in numbers.
The defender isnt likely to have an army entirely made of hoplites, are they?

And around and around we go.

Spino, maybe try bringing an oanger with you as a late game solution to Elephants. I tend to bring them with me by default in my armies anyway, as the battles at this stage of the game are usually full stack vs full stack and with all those tightly clumped troops... :)

One dead elephant and they're rampaging for the rest of the game.

I plan on playing the Scipii next game, so no doubt Ill run into plenty of Elephants. I look forward to the challange.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morindin

This is the circular argument again.

If someone has elephants they also likely to have a sever disadvantage in numbers.
The defender isnt likely to have an army entirely made of hoplites, are they?

And around and around we go.

---

That's a very big assumption, and wrong. I've both fielded and faced full stacks that included some elephants. If you want to consider them by their lonesome, fine, but it does not reflect how I have faced them, or used them. It also cedes the point that they are not easily dealt with. You are saying in effect, "OK, you get a half sized army with an elephant unit to compensate."

And yes, I've faced full stack hoplite armies (OK, they had one or two javelins...) In fact the first battle I had against more than a single hoplite unit, was a full stack of Greeks facing my half stack of round shield cav (medium horse). I've already described that slaughter of hoplites. I've also faced more balanced formations, but have not moved into Macedon or Greece proper yet.

About the Elephants:

They combine unrivaled shockcapacity against all units - only phalangites can stop a frontal attack - with great mobility. They unite a fear-spread with a almost invulnerability in the first phases of a battle. And this are just the basic typ..

As a battle tool in the hand of a skilled warrior they are simply supreme. Easy to handle and able to turn the tide of the battle very fast. As only phalangites can stop and kill them fast and this only if wellordered and frontally they have to fear almost no normal trooptype or normal weapon.

On the other hand they are rather easy to panic, if one has the right troops;

So I think some fights will be rather mismatched in the MP, as some faction have almost nothing to do so..


@Harvest: Good phalangites killed and routed in my tests the Elephants almost instantly, with very little casualites even on very hard - I will try to make some more scientific tests soon. But as a skilled player might use them on the flanks, and as the phalanx requires more Micro as the Elephants making them amok should be far easier...

Cheers

OA

Elephants in action:

I did some aggressive stuff with base level elephants last night. To see how durable these guys really are...all on "very hard."

Battle 1: The Brutii attempt to relieve a siege. They came at me with onagers and an army that was half triarii, and half principes/hastati. The onager gets the opening shot...killing two elephants waiting for orders (more kiddie entertainment units I guess.) So I sent cav around and knocked the onagers out. As the Brutii closed I shot up some early units with balearics and waited for the main body. At that point I sent in my now depleted single unit of elephants and cav. The elephants trampled through several triarii units, and hastati and principes. They caused the generals cav unit to rout. The cav following behind mopped up the mess and caused the now disorganized masses (from the elephant charge) to melt. I did have one unit of cav on a flank badly handled by triarii--I was busy with the action in the middle, so the triarii charged the isolated stationary cav, still the cav fought quite awhile before routing and inflicted quite a few casualties.

Battle 2: A unit with 10 elephants is present to allow me to knock down the wooden gates of an Egyptian city. This is in the desert, so the rest of my army waits patiently while I set the elephants loose. On the other side of the gate are a unit of chariot archers, and a unit of nile spearmen in phalanx. Two units of axemen also wait nearby. The elephants take no casualties knocking down the gate, so I charge them into the pikemen were they take a loss or two, and then toward the chariots in the corner. Medium cav is rushed in behind the pachys and the pikes rout. The elephants and horses rout the chariots. Now for the axemen attacking my cav, I turn around elephants and charge. The first axe unit routs, but the elephants are tired from the heat and charging. I charge them anyway toward the second axe unit and the elephants finally routed--depleted from 10 to 7 for their efforts (2 of which were "healed" after battle to put them back at 9.)

Do Phalanx Units really hurt Elephants?

They move slower than turtles, the Elephants can outWALK them.
Good, the Elephants charge into the Phalanx.


Now they should die according to a poster here, impaled on a spear wall.

But hey, even Cavalry can charge into a Phalanx frontally and break it (?)

Elephants can not? -> This would be good, I vote for expanding this feat to Phalanx vs Cavalry as well...

but honestly, until one more poster has not confirmed that Phalanx Units stop Elephants, I do not believe it. ~:handball:

The phalanx do indeed hurt the elephants. Plain vanilla elephants can charge through a base level phalanx though, but not the larger better types of hoplite. They take casualties doing it (unusual for elephants.) And as I meant to say in my original reply to Oleander, those large phalanx with longer spears can completely halt the elephants and/or kill them immediately, just like he said.

As you say, though, the mobility issue means that it is going to be tough to use phalanx as an effective counter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

The phalanx do indeed hurt the elephants. Plain vanilla elephants can charge through a base level phalanx though, but not the larger better types of hoplite. They take casualties doing it (unusual for elephants.) And as I meant to say in my original reply to Oleander, those large phalanx with longer spears can completely halt the elephants and/or kill them immediately, just like he said.

As you say, though, the mobility issue means that it is going to be tough to use phalanx as an effective counter.

---

Which makes perfect sense, after all the Romans after facing Carthagian elephants in sicily got compeltely stomped on, and then avoided fighting them on open ground after that.

Give any cavalry room to manouver, be it Elephants or normal Cavalry, and you have problems.

Another tactic they used was to create lanes in their formations that would hopefully lure the elephants to take the "easiest" route, which worked.
Perhaps Elephants need to be like war dogs, once you set them lose you dont really have any control over them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morindin

Which makes perfect sense, after all the Romans after facing Carthagian elephants in sicily got compeltely stomped on, and then avoided fighting them on open ground after that.

Give any cavalry room to manouver, be it Elephants or normal Cavalry, and you have problems.

Another tactic they used was to create lanes in their formations that would hopefully lure the elephants to take the "easiest" route, which worked.
Perhaps Elephants need to be like war dogs, once you set them lose you dont really have any control over them.

---

Good idea, as long as they aren't auto-replenishing also ~:eek: ~D

My elephants usually come back to life after battle...no joke. If I get a couple killed, they often are healed after battle. Man these things are a bargain.

Help me, I've been abusing elephants. I guess I need to join Pachyderms Anonymous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Help me, I've been abusing elephants. I guess I need to join Pachyderms Anonymous.

---

LOL. At one point I had to use the special command to drop my half unt of elephants. They went crazy right at the beginning of a battle, not sure why. So I had to suicide them cause they were heading straight back toward my group. Strangely enough they were all resurrected for the next battle.