Distance to Capital Public Order penalties

Okay, new data:

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/lm/r.../DistCap10.gif


Some rules of thumb:

• There is no penalty within 15 squares of your capital.
• The penalty is always 80% over 86 squares away.
• The penalty increases by ~1% per square.
• So between 15-85 squares, take the number of squares, subtract 10, and round to the nearest 5. So 24 squares would be 24-10=14, so the penalty is 15%. There seems to a small aberration near the transitions though.

There is an excellent tool from d0t for working out the optimum position for your capital in terms of this penalty: here, as well as a advanced version by Ravenous Bugblatter Beast, which allows you to set the maximum unrest that distance from capital is permitted to cause in each city when calculating the optimal capital.

Alphabetical list of the coordinates of all settlements:


Original post:

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Originally Posted by therother

Well, this will be of very little practical use to all but the most fastidious planner. This is the variation of % Public Order penalty with the straight-line distance from the capital.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/lm/r...r/DistCap7.gif

If anyone knows of a way to find the positions of the cities, I'd be grateful, as that'd allow me to easily get more points. It looks linear, but it could be a curve. The problem is that I have to find the local resources that match the city, compare the position with known landmarks (i.e. the Wonders) and then adjust for the position of the city. Which is extremely annoying! I would like to get data for all the cities at one capital position, then move it to various places and compare. But that's going to take a long time with the above method. I've done it with a few, and it works reasonably well.

Anyway, barring anyone discovering the (x,y) coordinates of all the cities, or indeed finds a more practical use for this info, this is all I'm doing on the subject!

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Nice graph

Do roads/paved/highways make any difference in the distance to capital penalty. As it seems that way for me because Corduba had a highway going all the way to Rome without the max 80 percent penalty but up north the penalties seemed to get higher quicker

Check out this file for some exact settlement coordinates. I myself am busy with my unit guide (got Egypt and Seleucid added... still a lot to go). But I knew this file was here... GL!

~~:\Rome - Total War\Data\world\template.txt

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Originally Posted by oaty

Do roads/paved/highways make any difference in the distance to capital penalty. As it seems that way for me because Corduba had a highway going all the way to Rome without the max 80 percent penalty but up north the penalties seemed to get higher quicker

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I honestly don't know. A junior patron has given me a way to find out grid positions, so I'll investigate later.

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Originally Posted by Soulflame

~~:\Rome - Total War\Data\world\template.txt

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That file just seems to be a template for creating your own campaign map. In their version of the imperial campaign, the x,y coords are missing. I assume they might be hard-coded.

However zarkis, a JP, has informed me of the show_cursorstat command for RomeSell. Big thanks to him. May he be given Membership as soon as possible!

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Originally Posted by oaty

Do roads/paved/highways make any difference in the distance to capital penalty. As it seems that way for me because Corduba had a highway going all the way to Rome without the max 80 percent penalty but up north the penalties seemed to get higher quicker

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It doesn't appear so, or at least the difference is marginal if they do make a difference. But most of my cities have highways. I tried a couple of new territories with just roads, but they all conformed. Isalnds too.

Try it for yourself though. Use the RomeShell show_cursorstat command to find out the positions of your two cites. Use trig to find the distance between them. Then use the equation on the graph to see if it matches the PO penalty (x is distance, y is calculated penalty). OR you could send the data to me!

PS I've updated the graph with the corrected positions. I got a surprising number of them absolutely spot on, which shocked me no end!

Speaking of straight-line distance... that's a pretty straight line there. Nice to see a tiny spec of the campaign game that is excruciatingly clear! ~:)

Luv your work, therother! ~:thumb:

You might take a look to see if the outliers (farther from the regression line) have bad roads (above the line) or good roads (below the line) to your capitol, as a rough indication of whether roads might matter. It's entirely possible since they obviously have a decent pathing engine built and ready for querying... but whether they do, who knows.

By the same token, I don't suppose whether it's by sea (or not) matters?

But, assuming you've got both good and bad roads, and overseas cities, encompassed by your data, the first pass indicates there are only small effects, if any. I wonder what's the deal (if any) with that one particular high lier at ~distance 33?

Also by chance could you give us a "real world" touchstone or two as to, how many squares = how much of the map. For example, from Rome to [what] is "50% disorder" away? Or, what's the length of Italy? (or something) Perhaps I should just break out RomeShell.

I'm sure you've noticed that your equation is a fair approximation of, 1 disorder per game square, minus a "home" area of 10 squares (or 12 or something).

Your work definitely has a practical use, because with the precise basis of the distance penalty known, it also becomes more viable (or not) to worry about moving one's capitol to a better position, from time to time. This wasn't possible prior to knowing the mechanism with precision - if e.g. it was found that seas made for a very short distance, you'd always want to be on coast. But if it's a simple crow-flies, as your first pass suggests, we know we should use simple geocentering. IF we want to bother to be that precise. ~D

Are there any reasons not to move the capitol at will, anyone? Besides the ones related to, where you might want your governors showing up (remote, dangerous, and/or no library).

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Originally Posted by therother

That file jusy seems to be a template for creating your own campaign map. In their version of the imperial campaign, the x,y coords are missing. I assume they might be hard-coded.

However zarkis, a JP, has informed me of the show_cursorstat command for RomeSell. Big thanks to him. May he be given Membership as soon as possible!

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Hmm I thought they mentioned some cities in that file, maybe they are just not real then?

Well, at least you got the relation anyway. Good job once again. We should compile all the info in one PDF; all the info about the Settlement scroll we have discovered so far. (And maybe later put that into the al ecompassing user created Rome Manual, an extension/replacement to the paper manual...)
Do you think this is a good idea?

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Originally Posted by RedKnight

I wonder what's the deal (if any) with that one particular high lier at ~distance 33?

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The deal is that I put the wrong PO% in. It should have been 20%. And now it lies bang on the line. It also corrects the only one of my cities the equation got wrong. It was slightly over 27.5 before, and now it's spot on! Thanks for pointing that out. Will correct the graph immediately.

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Originally Posted by RedKnight

Also by chance could you give us a "real world" touchstone or two as to, how many squares = how much of the map. For example, from Rome to [what] is "50% disorder" away? Or, what's the length of Italy? (or something) Perhaps I should just break out RomeShell.

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The map is 254 by 155 squares. The distance between Rome Tarentum in the South of Italy is 21 squares, or 10% (8.8%) PO. The distance to the Patavium at the top is 34.4 squares, and 20% (22.3%) PO.

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Originally Posted by RedKnight

I'm sure you've noticed that your equation is a fair approximation of, 1 disorder per game square, minus a "home" area of 10 squares (or 12 or something).

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Yes, indeed. It's minus 15 squares, BTW, if you include rounding.

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Originally Posted by RedKnight

Your work definitely has a practical use, because with the precise basis of the distance penalty known, it also becomes more viable (or not) to worry about moving one's capitol to a better position, from time to time. This wasn't possible prior to knowing the mechanism with precision - if e.g. it was found that seas made for a very short distance, you'd always want to be on coast. But if it's a simple crow-flies, as your first pass suggests, we know we should use simple geocentering. IF we want to bother to be that precise. ~D )

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Oh, I agree. It's important to know how it scales and what factors influence it. What I meant is that it was not really that practical, as it was really annoying to work out the position of each city. For instance, you weren't going to count how many squares to the right, and how many up, your new city was going to be from your capital to calculate the number of troops you’d need to pacify the settlement after taking it. But with the show_cursorstat command, and the quick rule that it's 1 disorder per square, minus 15, it is a lot more useful.

Edit: Remember where your capital is has an effect on corruption as well. I haven't done a study yet but, now I have the tools, it shouldn't be hard.

Additional Edit: Corruption is here.

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Originally Posted by RedKnight

Are there any reasons not to move the capitol at will, anyone? Besides the ones related to, where you might want your governors showing up (remote, dangerous, and/or no library).

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I've found none, and I've done it a few times. Perhaps they are subtle?

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Originally Posted by Soulflame

Hmm I thought they mentioned some cities in that file, maybe they are just not real then?

Well, at least you got the relation anyway. Good job once again. We should compile all the info in one PDF; all the info about the Settlement scroll we have discovered so far. (And maybe later put that into the al ecompassing user created Rome Manual, an extension/replacement to the paper manual...)
Do you think this is a good idea?

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I do. That's what I'm doing all this for! Although it is taking a lot longer than I anticipated, largely because I'm busy with other work, but also because things are more complex than expected.

If anyone whats to use my data for their own guide, they are more than welcome.

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Originally Posted by Tamur

Nice to see a tiny spec of the campaign game that is excruciatingly clear! ~:)

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Is that a mild rebuke? ~;)

It's been brought to my attention in the Corruption thread that many people don't know what a square (or tile) is, and indeed what size they are.

I've tried to help out with this post.

Thanks to a game supplied by afrit for the corruption thread, I can confirm that 80% is the maximum for Distance to Capital Public Order penalties. And there ends the investigation!

Does anyone know if the superior roads have an impact on the distance to capital penalty?

I mean it is sure going to take a shorter time to get there if your using Highways rather than just basic roads.

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Originally Posted by The_Emperor

Does anyone know if the superior roads have an impact on the distance to capital penalty?

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It seems to have absolutely none. Straight-line distance, it would seem, is the only factor taken into account.

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Originally Posted by therother

Thanks to a game supplied by afrit for the corruption thread, I can confirm that 80% is the maximum for Distance to Capital Public Order penalties. And there ends the investigation!

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Glad to be of assistance. You should summarize all your findings for Froggy's guide.

Afrit

Anyway we can mod the distance penalty for this? I can handle the rebellions and unrest, but the AI cannot. Watching a game unfold on its own I see Egpyt, Gaul, Numida, Germany with issues as they get large. In fact, it's sad, but I see the AI controlling Gaul, and even though it sets the tax rate low - it's still getting revolts. I'd much rather beat the factions to win the game, not a bunch of Rebel strongholds.

Thanks!

I think, along with the underlying mechanics of the diplomacy system, this is something we can't touch, unless someone has an absolutely stunning talent for reverse engineering binaries around here ~:)

I have updated the first post with new data, a new graph, and a few easy to remember rules that seem to work quite well.

Added an alphabetical list of the coordinates of all settlements.

Great stuff! Having the link to that interactive tool right there, is very useful, too. Happy holidays!

I have created an enhanced version of the calculator here:

http://www.ravenousbugblatterbeast.p...uk/bestcap.htm

This version allows you to set the maximum unrest that distance from capital is permitted to cause in each city when calculating the optimal capital.

Welcome to the Org, Ravenous Bugblatter Beast. ~:wave:

Thanks for that link - I've added it to the first post.

Are there any calculator of capital for BI?

I've not heard of one, 890719k. Then again, I've not looked (haven't played BI). Do you know if the general rule of thumb in the first post still applies? If so, it would seem to just be a matter of updating the settlement positions.

I vaguely recall one for BI. At least, I heard it said fairly authoritatively that Massila was the optimum location for the WRE, with a view to minimising discontent in its starting provinces.

That link is wonderful! :2thumbsup: My capital should be Sardis, it says...

The best place might not be dead centre once you factor into account the money.

Check you finances after you place your capital. Then try somewhere else and check again. You will see the trade/corruption figures alter. Capital placement tends towards centre of the population rather than centre geographically. If you started in the corner, say as Egypt, your big cities in the Nile area with all the cash will suffer from big corruption losses if you move the capital too far west/north.

My Egpytian capital in the Imperial campaign went Alexandria, Jerusalem, Cyprus as my empire expanded east, north, then west through Turkey/Greece.

This is very nice work by therother. This system is different from MTW where province loyalty was affected by the distance to the faction leader and whether or not the path to the leader was interdicted. That system required that you have the faction heir well placed and that logistical paths be maintained throught the empire while in RTW it doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by japinard

Anyway we can mod the distance penalty for this? I can handle the rebellions and unrest, but the AI cannot. Watching a game unfold on its own I see Egpyt, Gaul, Numida, Germany with issues as they get large. In fact, it's sad, but I see the AI controlling Gaul, and even though it sets the tax rate low - it's still getting revolts. I'd much rather beat the factions to win the game, not a bunch of Rebel strongholds.

Thanks!

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as tamur pointed out, we can't mod the distance penalty, but if you are really concerned with ai controlled factions having revolt problems, that is easy enough to fix through modding- just increase the various positive attributes of buildings for the opposing factions. for example, just up the happiness and law bonus in all the temples in export_descr_buildings file.

but then be sure to destroy those temples when you capture their cities!