What is your legion made up of ??

Hi everyone ~:wave:

As I want to make each of my armies represent a legion I have been doing a little digging. Apparently a legion consisted of 10 cohorts of infantry plus a small amount of additional cavalry. This is fine but then I realised I need to include missiles, skirmishers and artillery. Should these be included within my 10 cohorts as it will really reduce my mainline infantry? I think I want a maximum of 15 units in a legion to assist the AI as well as be more realistic.

Any ideas please?

~:cheers:

Well since I'm in the Spartan Empire, this is what I'd put for my version of a legion, for the various types that they'd be used for:

Main Army - Used for attacking opposing armies, and defending cities:

12 Units of Spartan Hoplites
1 General Calvery Unit
2 Heavy/Light Calvery Units
3 Units of Archers
2 Units of Peltasts (this is negotiable, can be used instead for 2 units of Armoured Hoplites, Spartan Hoplites, or more calvery)

Seigeing Armies

12 Units of Spartan Hoplites
1 General Calvery Unit
2 Heavy/Light Calvery Units
3 Units of Archers
2 Ongars
(plus Seige Assault equipment)

My personal armies typically consist of:

At least 8 units of Spartan Hoplites in the attacks I delibertly do.
4 Units or less of Armoured Hoplites, replaced by Spartan Hoplites.
Two or Three archer units, or Peltasts, or both.
One Captain unit of Calvery.
Two units of Calvery.
Two Ongars, or two more units of Armoured Hoplites, Archers, or Heavy Peltasts.

My Defense armies are typically:

4-6 Archer Units, especially for city garrisons.
10 or more Armoured Hoplites, no Spartan Hoplites for they are my assaulting military units.
Two or three Calvery units, one being the Captain.
Mabye some Light or Heavy Peltasts.

Interesting, I was wondering about the same thing!

In my early game I have found this composition that suits my idea of a legion:
--3 Hastati
--3 Principes
--2 Triarii
--2 Velites
--2 Cavalry

After Marius reforms:
--10 legionary cohorts
--2 cavalry

These "legions' are joined in big battles by a separate auxiliary corps, usually:
--2 Auxillia
--1 or 2 archer auxillia
--2 cavalry auxillia,
under the command of 1 unit of heavy cavalry

I would like to see what other people use!

I'd like to fight with my version of a legion and yours, in a head on assault, no flanking, just straight || line attack, see which one takes it. :charge:

I usually go for:

6 legion infantry (hastati, principes-whatever is available)
2 triairi
4 archers
2 light cav
2 heavy cav
1 war dogs
1 general
any further spaces- onagers (2-4)

for speed-lose arty
for uphill fight-replace 2 archers with infantry/cav

I suppose the point of YACOBU is NOT which is the stronger legion but which can better represent an actual one.

PS: I don't think I would ever use any of these legions against a human player :bow:

Yea, because Hastati just out right stink vs. my Phalanx and calvery, I've slaughtered over 15,000 of them. They always get massacred when they hit the spear wall, and then after a few moments of fighting, loseing 3/4 of their men, and only takeing a couple kills on my side, they retreat, and I send in the calvery and just utterly kill them all.

Its what brought the end of the Scippi and Bruti factions on my Campaign, after I massacred over 15,000 Hastati's and thousands of peltasts, archers, etc. Now Juli is going through the same thing, lol!

After the reforms, I used one first cohort and nine legionary cohorts, but I modified the game to allow first cohorts to be built. The amount of cavalry integral to the legions was minimal. The majority of it was alae of auxiliaries.

siris can you stop posting off topic things about the greeks? this is about the roman legion. not the greek phalanx. instead of sitting around here blowing hot air go to the multiplayer forum and set up a match with your beloved spartans.

I put my legion in a checkered like formation consisting of 9 legionnaires, 3 Legionnairy Cohorts, 3 Preatorian and 3 Urban Cohorts, 2 roman cavalry and 2 preatorian cavalry and 4 auxilliary archers i also have 1 general of course.

Pre marian, i have 3 trairii, 3 principes and 3 hastatii, again in a checkered formation, several velites in the front and cavalry on the flanks.

I use this in MP too sometimes when i play the romans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YAKOBU

Hi everyone ~:wave:

As I want to make each of my armies represent a legion I have been doing a little digging. Apparently a legion consisted of 10 cohorts of infantry plus a small amount of additional cavalry. This is fine but then I realised I need to include missiles, skirmishers and artillery. Should these be included within my 10 cohorts as it will really reduce my mainline infantry? I think I want a maximum of 15 units in a legion to assist the AI as well as be more realistic.

Any ideas please?

~:cheers:

---

Actual makeup of typical post Marius legion (circa 100 BC):

80 men per century
2 centuries per maniple (160 men)
3 maniples per cohort (480 men)
10 cohorts per legion (4800 men)
100-200 cavalry aux.
archers+artillery depending on situation (another 200 or so?)
mercenaries depending on situation (could number in the 1000s)

I don't have the book in front of me, but the 1st Cohort during Imperial times became slightly larger and had a different make up.. 520 men sticks in my mind, but I don't trust my memory in this..

Typical set up was checkerboard style with either two or three lines depending on desired frontage. Purpose of 2nd/3rd line: To fill gaps as required and reinforce as required. They were a close tactical reserve. Additional frontage extended on right and left by mercenary troops or multiple legions or both.

My take on this in RTW as Julii:

8 legionary cohorts (front line)
2 Spear Aux (reserve on left, protecting horses on left)
2 Urban Cohorts or Samnite Gladiators (center or slightly right of center (protecting side that doesn't have cav), reserve for commitment after line is engaged and I know where to reinforce.. these guys are my hard hitting shock troops)
2 Roman Cav or Legionary Cav + general (flankers)
3 or 4 archer aux
1-2 Onagers (if this stack will be assaulting cities)

I actually fight this team and find it works great against the AI (which can be incredibly stupid). I do NOT use the checkerboard setup that the real legions used, because the AI is too good at cavalry flanking/charging gaps (and the cav is SO fast), and the engine doesn't support it without extreme micro from the human. So I have spear aux and two cohorts backing up the main line to fill in or flank as needed.

The spear aux are also good in the rear to protect against cav flanking (although sometimes they get frightfully tired by the end of the battle, running back and forth behind the line like insane halfbacks).

Pre-Marian:

1 General
2 Velites
4 or 6 Hastati
4 or 6 Principes
2 or 3 Triarii
1 or 2 Equites

+ Misc Local Troops.

Post-Marian:

1 General
Up to 10 Cohorts

+ equal number of Auxillari or Local Troops.

My Macedonian armies normally comprise:

A core of 4 or 5 phalanx pikemen (not usually royal ones - too expensive and only hoplites)
4 or 5 archers
4+ mercs, either specialist infantry, assault troops, elephants or skirmishers
General
A siege weapon or two
3+ cavalry

Pre-Marian I use almost all Hastati, like 6-8, an HQ, and 1-2 Roman Cav. I add 4 Roman Archers ASAP. I never use Principe because it's so hard to refit in the field (most barbarian cities aren't big enough to retrain them) and I never use Triarii because the Marian reforms always seem to occur before I can even build them.

Post-Marian I use 6 Legionaries, 4 Auxilia Spearmen, 4 Auxilia Archers, 1 HQ, and 2 Cav.

If I could retrain Principe on the frontier, or if transportation was quicker (like by sea in MTW) I'd use more Principe for sure. I'd love to use more Triarii, I just never get access to them before the reforms.

For those of you who do use Principe and Triarii, how do you address the Retraining problem? Do you fight understrength after the first battle? Do you keep a reserve legion and swap them out? Since I use Hastati almost exclusively, they are often very experienced. Arent experienced Hastati better that green Principes?

When I do have the problem of not being able to retrain principes anywhere near the battlefields, I usually let the hastati do most of the fighting. The principes form my reserve, or a flanking force. I've come to find that hastati stand up pretty well to just about anything.

I generally try to stick close to history when putting together an army. However, I often find myself using too many Archer and Archer Auxilia units in my Roman legions. Archer units are so damned effective in RTW that it's hard not to use them ahistorically... ~;)

Republican Army:

1 General
1 or 2 Equites
1 or 2 Roman Cavalry
OR
1 Legionary Cavalry
4 Velites/Roman Archers
4 Hastati
4 Principes
3 or 4 Triarii
1 or 2 Mercenary unit(s) (for kicks, whether I need them or not)
OR
1 Wardogs (for really fun times, I save them for when the enemy routs or for when there is an emergency)
OR
1 Scorpion/1 Ballistae/Repeating Ballistae

Post Marian Reforms Army:

1 General
1 or 2 Roman Cavalry
1 or 2 Cavalry Auxilia
1 Legionary Cavalry
4 Light Auxilia/Auxilia Archers
12 Legionary Cohorts (various types)
OR
8-9 Legionary Cohorts (various types)
3-4 Auxilia Infantry
1 or 2 Mercenary unit(s) (for kicks, whether I need them or not)
OR
1 Wardogs (for really fun times, I save them for when the enemy routs or for when there is an emergency)
OR
1 Scorpion/1 Ballistae/Repeating Ballistae

Once in awhile I'll use a unit of Praetorians but rarely Urban Cohorts, the latter should be left in my capital unless there is an emergency (just as they were used historically).

I rarely use Auxilia infantry but they're good for when I'm in a pinch and/or feeling particularly historical. If used I put 3-4 Auxilia into every army.

I never use Light Auxilia because Archer Auxilia are so damn good... ~D

I hate wasting a unit slot for Incendiary Pigs and since I've modded the elephant units to be more realistic there is little need for bacon in my battles.

As fun as it is I try to refrain from using Arcani, Gladiators or Onagers in open battle. Arcani were never used in combat. Gladiators were rarely ever used in combat and Onagers in open battle are ridiculous. I try to refrain from using Onagers in anything but siege battles and have yet to use their Flaming Pots special attack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spino

I hate wasting a unit slot for Incendiary Pigs and since I've modded the elephant units to be more realistic there is little need for bacon in my battles.

---

LOL!!! ahh.. roast pork! Good against elephants, and the surviving troops can have a feast afterwards!

On the comment about gladiators and Onagers, I tend to agree with you historically speaking.

I use gladiators in open battles for the 'gamey' aspect.. they are convenient to use as heavy hitting flankers before I get to field heavier legion types. I tend to not think of my setups as matching history per se, but rather my tactics are formulated on what I know about Military History of the last 2000 years. If I know I'm going to get hit by cav a lot on the flanks, I deploy spear there.. lots of archers? I field archers and cav in higher proportion if possible. My setup listed above is a good general use against the different types of armies I see... I experimented for a while, but then ended up with something somewhat resembling what the Romans used because it is so flexible.

On the subject of Onagers I agree, I tend to find them very (unrealistically) overpowering against the AI.. I was using them a lot at first, but now find myself using them much less in open battle for more of a challenge (its more accidental now, when I have a 'siege stack' that gets hit in between cities).

My parthian legion!

1 General (obviously)
2 Cataphracts
2 Camel Cataphracts (if fighting mainly cavalry army then 3)
1 War Elephants
4 Persian Cavalry

I just hide my Persian Cavalry in the forests on the side and send my other guys in as a distraction, while my PCs charge across the flanks pouring arrows into the enemy. I always put my PCs in a very narrow formation, and I NEVER use cantabrian circle (cc is the devil's way of tricking your horse archers, trust me. Parthian tactics (what I use, demonstrated above) is much more effective)

Personally, I use six units of Praetorian Cohorts (Urban aren't worth the expense for a few more points of defense), six units of Archer Auxilia, six units of Cavalry (Usually Legionary, Praetorian when I can get it).

I top this off with two units of artillery, usually Repeating Ballista. Keeps the enemy from staying put for too long when I'm shelling them with ballista bolts. Onagers work too, but they are not nearly as accurate and tend to hit men that are standing right in front of them. However, they help end a siege more quickly if I have them in my offensive army. I tend to have four full armies at any one time. One for each point on the compass to defend against attacks from those locations and to expand territory when the need arises. Anymore is wasteful, really. ~:)

Oh, and if someone commits a particularly nasty atrocity against me, I bring out my regional "terror" army. This consists of 4 units of Praetorian Cohorts (just for holding some kind of front), 6 units of Wardogs and 8 units of Onagers or Heavy Onagers to rain death upon the enemy. This is primarily to put down a rebelling city. I'll use the entire battle leveling every single building I can before time runs out and letting the dogs loose in the city after the gatehouse and towers have been smashed.

It works like a charm. I only use it for rebellions or if someone broke an alliance and declared war on me. I bring it up and use it on the first enemy city I can find. Great fun that. ~D

My Macedonian army formation (for sp only really).

1 = pikemen
2 = archers
3 = skirmishers/slingers
4 = cavalry
5 = swords mercs
0 = general + extra heirs etc

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:duel:

I never use standardised legions, my units change depending on area concentration of enemies, enemy and Denari. I prefer as the romans when I am stinking rich to use 2-4 Urban Cohorts, 4-6 Legionary Cohorts, 2-4 Archer Auxilia and a bunch of random cavalry, plus mercs. As the Seluecids my units vary greatly, I have one army fighting the Scythians that has all mercenaries except for a couple of silver shield phalanxes, I have an army in north Africa with Elephants galore. I have armies in Greece composed of Silver Shield legionaries, silver shield pikemen, cataphracts, companion cavalry, archers, peltasts and the occasional Thracian or Bastarnae mercenary. I prefer to adjust tactics and amry composition on the fly. Though there are some akward moments, 4 very badly depleted phalanxes backed by 4 peltasts 2 archers and 4 cavalry is sort of annoying to command!

I am useing a standard army of 3 cavelry (including general) 2 cavelry archers 5 main battle line infantry 3 beefed up archers and 2 skirmishers

for siege more like 1 cav (general) 7 main infantry 3 meatgrinder infantry 2 archers 2 onagers

this is for Armenia




ill get my Leigons for Romans soon

Roman;
pre-marius
4 Hastati
4 Principes
2 Triari or gladiator
2 Velites
2 Roman archers
2 Equites
2 Legionary cav
General (optional)
1 siege weapon/arcanii/war dogs

post marius
10 Legionary cohorts (or 9 and a 1st cohort)
2 light auxilia
2 archer auxilia
2 auxilia spearmen
1 Roman cavalry
1 Legionary cavalry
General (optional)
1 siege weapon/arcanii/war dogs

Greek cities
General (optional
2 Spartan hoplites
2 archer
2 peltasts (switch these for heavy version when they come along)
2 militia cav
2 greek cav
siege weapon/war dogs
4 hoplites
4 armoured hoplites -these can be changed out for just 8 of either type

Parthia
General
2 Cataphracts
2 camel-phracts
2 war elephants
siege weapon
12 persian cav and cav archer mix or just persian cav
for the parthians i need to work out a good siege army but so far no luck

Seleucid
General
siege weapon
2 archers
2 peltasts
2 greek cavalry
2 cataphracts/companion cav/sythed chariots
2 war elephants/militia cav
2 silver shields pikemen
6 phalanx pikemen

Egypt
line
General
siege weapon
2 archers
2 skirmishers
2 nubian cavalry
2 egyptian chariots
2 chariots archers
2 desert axemen
6 nile spearmen

Guards
General
siege weapon
2 pharohs bowmen
2 skirmishers
2 desert cav
2 nile cavalry
2 camel archers
2 desert axemen
6 pharohs guards



Britons
Warlord
druids
2 light chariots
2 chariots
4 spear warbands
2 head hurlers
2 slingers
2 chosen swordsmen
4 swordsmen
2 woad warriors/naked fanatics

My 20 unit legion would be:

-The General's unit
-2 Equites
-17 Hastati (or Princepes if possible)

I never use Triarii because they aren't armed with javelins.

I field as many infantry units to increase the number of soldiers in the legion. I believe that huge numbers win. Javelins are the only answer to those pesky chariots and annoying elephants.

Pre-Marian:
General, 4 cavalry (Equites, Merc Barbarian, whatever I can get - sometimes I'll even head a ship & general over to the Black Sea to pick up Merc Horse Archers and Sarmatian Cavalry), upto 6 archers (preferably Cretan) and 9 to 15 Hastati.

Post-Marian:
General, 2 Praetorian Cavalry, 5 Praetorian or Urban Cohorts and 5 Archer Auxilia as a core then add on additional units if necessary, either Merc Horse Archers, more Praetorian Cavalry, more Archer Auxilia and/or occasionally a unit or two of Heavy Onagers.

I work on the basis that a stack is an army, and the standard Republican consular army was two legions plus an approximately equal number of auxiliaries.

My pre-Marian legions have 3 units of hastati or principes, one of velites and one of equites. After Marius the velites are replaced with a standard cohort, so I have four legionary cohorts and one roman cavalry.

Cavalry tends to have a short lifespan in my armies, so it is often replaced by cavalry auxilia or a general, depending on what is available.

That gives me basically a five-unit legion, so I can have two of those and ten auxiliaries. Pre-Marius these tend to be local mercenaries who are the first into the breach and last into the pay parade; post-Marius they include more Roman auxiliaries and artillery. For real punch I can go for three or four legions in the same stack, although this is rare.

Provincial troops for rebel-squashing may have ersatz legions on the Pre-Marius model, made up of three units of auxilia and one or more of light auxilia, though I prefer to use all-cavalry armies for the strategic movement and because rebels tend to be light infantry who get ridden down easily.

Personally, I use a whole bunch of whatever heavy infantry is available, half as many archers or more... a few cavalry units if available. If there's siege equipment around, I bring that along. When fighting barbarians, or anyone else lightly armoured, I like to have some wardogs. If there's city fighting, gladiators or arcani. If there are mercenaries, I use them (as long as they're fairly decent). Generally, I use what's available.

Oh, and a contingent of diplomats... I can't lose a battle if my enemy's soldiers join me now can I?

My legion consists of:-

Pre-Marian

6 Hastati
6 Pricipes
2 Triarii
2 Equites
2 Funditores (slingers)
1 General's bodyguard

(I play the R:TR Mod 3.1 which allows training of Hastati, Principes and Triarii from the start).

I also use local mercenary units to flesh out my Legion.
Sometimes I will have less Hastati and more Mercenary foot or cav.

Post-Marian

10-12 Legionary Cohorts
2 Legionary Cavalry
2 Archer auxilia
2 auxilia
1 General's Bodyguard

Again, I will add mercenary or locally raised troops as neccessary.

I usually have a smaller force accompany my main legions.
This is several units of foot, 1 unit of cav, velites/missile troops and heavy equipment such as ballistae and onagers. This is my siege/replacement army.

I prefer to keep the composition of my armies as historical as possible.
I don't like to use larger numbers of archers as it makes battles too easy. I like to get close and dirty with my infantry. I love Roman infantry because they have one ability that most other faction infantry don't - Pilum.

:duel:

I've modded my game a fair bit , so these setup might not be viable {or even possible in some cases} for others .


Pre-Marius :
Family member General {duh :p} and perhaps 3 cav mostly Equites {which were atcually heavies that still sucked and I modded them so - they are inferior to Barbarian cav except for better protection from missiles and more cheaply and easily replaced} and Barbarian Cavalry {playing Julii} . Roman Cavalry are actually a Post Marius unit , so I modded them as such {they seem to represent basically better horsemen -probably romanised Gauls- using Equites equiptment} .

About 4 each of Hastati , Princepes and Triarii {I have good reason to use all three : my Hastati are weaker than before but cheaper , Princepes are notably better than Hastati now , but more expensive and Triarii are Phalanx capable -historical evidence and common sense supports the theory- and now use their gladius in close but are the most expensive of the three ; I also used Vetengetorix' fix to stop cavalry jumping clean over pikes which makes phalanx excelent cavalry stoppers now} .

The remainder {of a 20 unit stack} are Velites , Roman Slingers and Archers {I included the Funditors into my mod and bumped Archers up the tech tree and increased their cost and build time} , or good Mercenary missiles though there are almost always some Velites in the stack .

Naturally , as things progress the ratio of units can change , and I have a fondness for charger cavalry and long range missiles {I gave slings the same range as comparative archers and the elite ones A.P. which fits history better} .




Post Marius :
Family member general and 4 of Roman cavalry and Cavalry Auxilia {I made them Post Marius also . The Equites sometimes used javlins and pilla , but the sucked so badly they probably wouldn't have been very useful as skirmisher cavalry anyhow} . Most of my Roman Cavalry {all but Cav Aux} takes 2 or more turns to raise , so Legionary Cav+ are rare in my Legions generally .

8 units Legionary Cohort {Early or Late , very few are the costly elites} with 2 Auxilia Spearmen for the flanks .

2 units Archer Auxilia {I lowered their range to 120 meters as though they were recruited from places with decent archers , Rome didn't exactly produce a lot of compound bows at that time so I figure their government issue from the lowest bidder bow is only good for average ranges} and 3 Light Auxilia skirmishers .
Again , good Mercenary missile unit can find a loving home in my armies and Scythian and Samartian cavalry also welcome ~D


With the Selucids , I can make a point to conquer firstly Egypt {I'm modding them more realistly by crickey !} then the Rest of the Middle East and Aisa Minor {Turkey and Armenia today} so I end up with some peace to build an economy that can easily support a useful number of full stack armies of the best troops .
Thus , my Selucid *ready for the Romans* Army :
Family Member General , 0-3 Companion Cavalry , a fist full of Katatanks {my favority ~D } and 2-4 Armoured Elephants .
6 Silver Sheild Pike and 4 Silver Sheild Legionaries .
A couple of Cretan Archers/Rhodian Slingers .
*Grabs Testicles* "I got your Pax Roma right here" :p

The only other Selucid army I favor is General {guess whom :p} , 4-8 Sarmatian Mercenaries {not only stylish , but they charge like Companions and don't depopulate my cities} and an arse load of Scythian Horse archers .
I Imagine that Numidian Cavalry could fit into that Steppe army well enough too .


Scythian {likely to be modded into Sarmatia eventually} :
Guess :p


Parthia :
Havn't gone far with them yet , and I'm going to mod a bit with them {give them their historical Cataphract Archers to begin with , then two lesser levels of Cataphract etc} but I intend General with a hard bunch of Cataphract Lancers and Archers as half the army {or less if the Catatank Archers aren't available : the Ration of heavy melee cav to archer cav was 40/60 as that is what worked . I won't bother reinventing a wheel there} and Persian and vanilla Horse Archers as the rest .


Greeks :
General , 2-4 Militia/Greek Cavalry {I'm going to make a heavy Greek cav -it is historically accurate- which will be weaker than say Macadonian or Barbarian Nobles etc , but stronger than Equites ... those heavy cav started to use Hopolite sheilds just before this time so they'll have those to begin with and 9 foot spears and Kopesh swords} .
Armoured Hopilites and Spartans baby ! {generally the Spartans on both Flanks for the Marathon effect or on one flank if not enough available .
A couple of Archers , Cretans and Rhodians as I can get them with a couple of Heavy Peltasts {Illiarians preferable , I modded them a bit stronger as they did rock somewhat in real life} .

And yes , if I could afford it I would use all Spartans :p


The others I havn't modded for enough {a lot I want to add or change} to give the answer , but the Numidians are largely done in units {just haven't got around to regions yet , so haven't played a campaign with them yet} . I made their Javlin men stronger {Missile 10 , melee 6 , defensive skill 4+2 sheild : they were the bulk of Numidias' armies and bore the brunt of the combat thus were harder than typical Javlin men} , Desert Infantry slightly better {Moral 8 , attack +1 , armour -1 and FS_Fast_Spearman skeleton : the slower speed didn't make sense , the rest just sits better with my vision of them} , Numidian Cavalry slightly buffed {Missile +1 , Melee -1 -it was only a bloody knife !- and defensive skill +2 -they were really good horsemen} so the whole Numidian army {except Legionaries , whom have better pillum skill and slightly better moral} is fast and sharp , but quite light {though they can now build small -the weakest- elephants if they can get a region that has the resource , which could work well teamed with Legionaries and Longsheild Cav} .
They have become the Mohomed Ali of my RTW : they Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee ! :duel:
Buggered if I know what I'll make of them yet though :p

Thanks for all your replies ~:cheers:

I've now settled on my standard legion:

10 units of infantry (6 of the best and 4 weaker).
2/3 cavalry (General and at least 1 light).
2/3 missiles.

This should leave 5 slots free for mercenaries as and when required.

I like a standard legion as it stops me from over-producing in some units. Also I want to name my legions both for SP and PBEM's. It helps me role play a little.

:charge: