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Apart from the slingers, I am also very interested in the wardog unit. It seems that they can deal all type of enemies, from Inf to Cav, the dogs would drag them down and tear them to pieces. Granted, I'm using Julii so most of enemies fielded light units only, but even Carthagians were poor in dealing with rabies. ~D What is your opinion on the dogs, my fellow warmongers?
I dont like em so i dont use em, ive only used them once early on and they preety much kick ass and never stop to chase evry unit around heh
Dogs have trouble to kill elephants.
They have strong and weak points.
~:( All to often they attack 1 unit and chase that unit off the map even if only 1 enemy survives.
~:) They are nice to assault open gates. Not only can they kill some, it also doesn't matter how many die, the handlers are normally away from danger and you'll get a full fresh unit in the next battle.
Oh I remember that battle clearly Tosa. Good thing I had an elephant unit ~D
Havent dont many experiments with them but from what I have seen so far I would say they do seem a bit too powerful..
And I'd still consider them to be a fantasy unit anyway.
CBR
I don't train wardog units. I sometimes use the ones the senate give me. I consider them overpowered and more like a fantasy unit there for variety.
Then again, I don't fear dogs, even the supposed big vicious ones. Given the choice of fighting armed men or fighting dogs...well, the choice is pretty easy.
when they got some chevrons, you see clearly how overpowered they are.
i use wardogs in 3 cases:
1. Slow down frontal assault to buy my skirmishers more time.
2. city assaults - dogs will always go in first.
3. Flanking with dogs.
i use only 2 or 3 units of wardogs in full army.
u cant rely on them too much though because they suck against heavy infantry and cavalry.
That's almost like saying "I only use 2 or 3 units of elephants per army," not because of their relative effect, but because having 2 or 3 special units in a single army stack is a rather large portion of the force. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by dedmoroz
IMO, wardogs are overpowered.
Part of the problem is that their numbers are restored after every battle.
As for combat, even if they don't kill units, they are excellent at harrassing them. They're quite effective at disrupting cavalry charges, phalanxes, and archers.
IIRC, they also have the "fear" ability. And since the AI is poor at managing family members with unit stacks (hence no morale bonuses for the AI in most battles) they can easily start routing chain reactions in an enemy line.
When you think about it, it seems like it would be pretty hard to train dogs to run past a formation and attack it from behind.Quote:
3. Flanking with dogs.
As Brutii I used my wardogs as part of an small-3 unit- size army
The army was made with :
a unit of roman cavalry
a unit of some infantry
and a unit of wardogs
I had about 3 or 4 of these tiny armies and they moved across gaul
to clean the land from small rebel forces or some warband units.
Wardogs are perfect for these tasks because no dogs are lost and at the beginning of every battle all dogs are alive again.
Ofcourse these ''squads'' were no match for huge armies so I withdrew them when a larger army attacked, but they were successful enough to use them again against the germans.
Yes, but I think he means enveloping them from your flanks while still under control of the handlers. As soon as you release the dogs, they just go for the enemy and you can't control them.Quote:
Originally Posted by dismal
Of cousre that is what i meant. Thought it was clear ~:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen
The dogs are a fun novelty unit that I use very sparingly.
In my current German campaign I have a single dog unit in each of two towns in northern Europe that I use to run down rebel peasants. Some of my mounted warriors are too proud to bother engaging such vermin! :grin:
I dhave no idea what you guys are talking about. Dogs are the weakest unit to closest of my recollection. I never use them because they are so easily run down and killed. I'll try them again after reading all this praise but I doubt it'll change anything.
They're not amazing, but they are very, very specialized units. They're meat shields. They break up phalanxes well, they halt cavalry charges, and they require little micro.
Useless unless it's for a series of battles though, cuz you really need that replenish.
They replenish, so losing dogs doesn't really matter much. They have a +12 attack and +2 charge, nothing to sneeze at in a replenishing unit. I think they also have some negative morale effects on nearby enemies, but it has been awhile since I toyed with them. They were pretty good at causing a flank to rout as I recall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince
They suck against armoured troops. They also can easily make elephants run amok.
What makes them deadly is a kill rate mod. The kill rate mod does not bring down the wardogs killrate as they are a specialty unit. The only reason I train them is when I'm against a fation with chariots.
dogs first through the gates are a good idea.
they are excellent troops, however, i don't build them because they take 2 turns to produce.
I don’t really think that dogs are all that powerful but are really useful for disrupting enemy formation, absorbing cavalry charge, chasing after skirmishers and of course as frontal assault force during city assaults. ~D
Why do people say that wardogs are a myth unit? To my information rotweilers were bred by Romans for war, so if the Roman factions have them it is perfectly normal.
There is also a legend why rotweilers tails are being cut off. There was a Roman general who used to be the central figure for gossips, he got tired of this and to turn the attention of himself he cut his dogs tail off. Now the people said "Looks what he did to the dog!" and left all his deeds alone. ( This was a very short version of the legend )
But back on topic, I find that the dogs are very good at sieges, I set them loose in the middle of the battle, when my men have breached the walls and are trying hard to kill the enemy. The dogs route them faster and above that even chase and kill the routing enemy so I dont have to face them again or run my troops after them through the whole city
maybe i should train a unit for those pesky numidians, i hate all they'r ranged units...
I think it wrong to classify wardogs as a fanatsy unit. There is no doubt that dogs were used in ancient warfare in fact its where we get the phrase 'Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war'.
However, I think they were a very specialised unit nad certainly not a major feature of any battle. The historical articles I have read state that their most common usage was against cavalry where they were equipped with vertical blades strapped to their back and trained to run under and between the horses legs thus causing confusion and havoc amongst mounted formations.
The biggest problem however must have been enemy recognition and I suspect that once released wardogs ought to count as 'running amok' after their initial unit contact.
[QUOTE=Didz]I think it wrong to classify wardogs as a fanatsy unit. There is no doubt that dogs were used in ancient warfare in fact its where we get the phrase 'Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war'.
true but if this is historicly sound then why did the greek plato say that and not a roman who had a wardog?
uh crap
i need to learn a bit about posting
can you tell me where to learn?
Quote:
Originally Posted by master of the puppets
Experience my boy, experience. ~:pat: Just use the quote button at the bottom of the post you wish to quote, its so much easier.
I find wardogs to be a nice little distraction, but nothing that should be considered powerful. Especially with no experience points, they are very weak, or so it appears to me.
To be honest I have no idea if the Roman's used wardogs and was as surprised as many others to find them included in the Roman OOB. My understanding was that they were used by some of the more eastern armies e.g. Syrian's, Hittites etc. However, it is equallly possible that many armies opened a battle by releasing wardogs in order to disrupt the enemy formations.Quote:
Originally Posted by master of the puppets
As for flaming pigs, I must admit I've never come across those in any of my reading and I am curious how a pig would be controlled once you had set fire to it. A more plausible option would be to have an animal pull a flaming incendary behind it, but even then i suspect panic would lead to it heading off in any direction but the one you wanted it to.
Has anyone got any historical references for flaming pigs???
There was a force that was besieged, and the besieged army was much better in quality. The only problem was that the besiegers had elephants wich kept them besieged. The general of the fort/city tarred some pigs and let slip the hogs of war. The elephants were scared and ran off and the siege was liftedQuote:
Has anyone got any historical references for flaming pigs???
Would they be good against the unarmoured chariots? They're so simple they just attack relentlessly so there's no problem of them milling about getting run down and not attacking, and chariots have no armour.
Will dogs be a useful silver bullet for trashing an irritating chariot unit? (discount British Chariots, which are pants against anything)
Has anyone thought about whether the stats in the unit details scroll is for the dogs or the handlers? I dont think dogs wear armour...
Well as already stated the dogs I read about were indeed decked out in armour which covered their entire back and head and was supplanted by a vertical blade.
It doesn't really make much sense for them not to be protected with at least padded armour.
Their are two entries for all mount units. One is for the soldiers, the other the mount, for wardogs:Quote:
Originally Posted by King_Etzel
stat_pri_armour 7, 3, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 2, 1, flesh
Some great ideas here that I haven't tried. I almost always add a dog unit or two (preferably) to my campaign armies or custom battles. They are a "one shot" deal to be sure but when used I find them pretty effective. I didn't know they would work well against phalanx formations or city entries. I like using them against lighter infantry flanking my lines or especially in launching them from the woods into the enemy flank or rear. I also like the fact that once "let loose" they will not stop attacking enemy troops. Of course there is no control once you let them go, but I'm not trying to use them as I would a "regular" army unit. I played a historical battle Tuetoborg Forrest and the germans launched dogs against me in which I actually killed them off pretty well. Don't know if the AI is using them differently or what is going on there, but when I use them they work pretty good. Once again, they are only a "part" a combined armed force strategy. ~:cheers:
I love Wardogs! I kinda like your way of thinking, Asimov!
I just get them to Chhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggge straight at the enemy to pin them While I shoot them down with my archers :charge: :charge: :charge: :charge: :charge:
then I advance my infantry and kill some more :duel: :duel: :duel: :duel: :duel:
then I advance the archers and cavalry, the archers fling themselves onto the flanks of the enemy and the cavalry deal with the other cav. :charge:
If needed the archers and some infantry help to kill the opposing cavalry.
In the end it is just a big,fat, victory ~:cheers: ~:cheers: ~:cool:
But of course all down to the archers. (MOSTLY). ~:)
'Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of War' - William Shakespeare (the play 'Julius Ceasar').Quote:
Originally Posted by Didz
Many dog breeders on the internet claim that the Mastiff originated from Wardogs bred in Britian and Europe 2000 or more years ago. Can't find too many references in classical history, but that isn't that surprising, since ancient historians generally didn't focus on the mechanics of battle as muhc as the political/social repercussions of a battle. There are references in classical texts to manuals used by Roman Generals to help train the newer leaders in battlefield mechanics/tactics, but none survive to the modern day.. so much (although not all) of what we know today ends up being the result of educated guessing on our part.
And on the subject of the thread.. I like them myself.. as others have stated, good for a 'distraction' while your main force does its work (since the dogs are completely expendable and you can independently back off the handlers after the dogs are released).
Don't use them alone.. but use them to soak up casualties since they replenish in a turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by master of the puppets
Did Plato say it before Shakespeare?
ANTONY
O, pardon me, thou bleeding piece of earth,
That I am meek and gentle with these butchers!
Thou art the ruins of the noblest man
That ever lived in the tide of times.
Woe to the hand that shed this costly blood!
Over thy wounds now do I prophesy,--
Which, like dumb mouths, do ope their ruby lips,
To beg the voice and utterance of my tongue--
A curse shall light upon the limbs of men;
Domestic fury and fierce civil strife
Shall cumber all the parts of Italy;
Blood and destruction shall be so in use
And dreadful objects so familiar
That mothers shall but smile when they behold
Their infants quarter'd with the hands of war;
All pity choked with custom of fell deeds:
And Caesar's spirit, ranging for revenge,
With Ate by his side come hot from hell,
Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice
Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war;
That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
With carrion men, groaning for burial.
Julius Ceasar, Act 3 scene 1 (http://www-tech.mit.edu/Shakespeare/...aesar.3.1.html)
EDIT: Oops, should have finished reading the thread before replying. Nice job, theDuck. ~;)
historically wardogs were used to disrupt enemy cavalry charges
i know it was used in the middle ages the put a torch on the dogs head to scare the horses :book: these were no rottweillers but an other kind of dog mastitsu ar something maybe they copied it from the romans
I don't build wardogs, but I do occasionaly use the ones the Senate gives me as a gift.
One question: I have never fought a wardog-unit in the game (only in real life! ~;)). What happens if you set archers to shoot at the wardogs? Do they target the handlers or the actual dogs?
There are 2 things wrong about the Wardog unit:
Firstly, in real life, Wardogs would eventually lose interest if they become very tired in pursuit. Ive seen a band of Wardogs chase 3 chariots off the entire length of the field.
Secontly, also unrealistically, they are too disciplined. If you charge them into a line of troops, they will attack ONLY the unit you sent them against. In real life, they would break off and attack anything that moves!
Edit: I'll try reading the entire thread next time
The archers only target the handlers. If you attemt to charge a wardog unit, your unit will charge towards the handlers as well. Once the dogs are released, they are pretty much ignored by the enemy (except in melee). The handlers are considered "the unit" which is why the dogs can continue past the red line when chasing routing units.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emren
One question: I have never fought a wardog-unit in the game (only in real life! ). What happens if you set archers to shoot at the wardogs? Do they target the handlers or the actual dogs?
Wardogs are a balanced Rock-Paper-Sissors unit.
Great against Chariots! (on easy level anyway)
Those doggies chase them down like slow cars and pull the riders right off.
Panic the chariot horses, and pursue them for the whole battle.
Really helped my outnumbered Bruti by taking out those flanking chariots.
Also help a city assult by taking scythed chariots off the streets.
Those armored scythed chariots are really nasty to densely packed troops!!!
Great against Spearman and Phalanxes.
Those doggies dodge the sprears, destroy formations, and cause routs.
I was outnumbered 2:1, and sent a wardog at the spearman in the center.
Bam, the line was broken the General (Captain, light calvary) just happen to trot in their path, and died. The other two wardog units were sent after the flanking chariots, and killed or kept them out of the battle.
Mixed against calvary.
They are Ok angainst light calvary, and can keep them off your butt, and pinned down for missle or melee attacks.
Heavy calvary will make dog meat out them. But heavies are trouble for everyone. Use the dogs to pin them down, and send support asap.
Mixed against infantry.
Heavies will make dog meat out of them.
Naked or Lightly armored infantry will have trouble
Way to dig up an old thread...
Anyway I rather like using dogs to just swamp the enemy and win with no losses. Not very realistic, but fun :D
On easy difficulty you get +4 combat adjustments. Dogs, with many attacks, are now relatively more powerful especially against low end troops.
I like using a war dog on very hard difficulty. Not for its destructuve effect but for its morale effect. With +7 combat adjustments in favour of the enemy the dogs are not as effective as portrayed above. Instead threy are released against a weakened unit at the height of battle. Hopefully with all the other effects going on its enough to break the enemy and start a rout.
I use Warhounds for the Morale effect too, combined with Head Hurlers, Chariots, etc. Very effective.
i use wardogs becoz it's upkeep is low and easy to maintain when your supply is low(mostly i use them as start of Germania,very easy to take down a city even got full stack in it):2thumbsup:
I cant think of a barbarian unit that my wardogs havent massacred, heck ive sent them against generals and they still pull off the win. I assume they would suck against strongly armoured units like cataphracts and roman infantry but ive never tried. also i doubt they would do anything against elepehants. Anyway a strategy i like is to send them right in the middle of the enemies line, they will probably kill the unit i send them against and instead of chasing the survivors they will get stuck fighting the other infantry and missile troops. :skull: :skull: :skull:
I think that the 2 best uses for Wardogs is Siege, and to create morale issues in the enemy.
The good thing about sieges rather than open warfare is that if you send your dogs after a unit that routes in the fields and a part of that unit survives to run off the map, the dogs will disappear off the map too. Whereas a routing unit running to a city square is merely taking the dogs closer to the other units that are guarding the square. Result.
As for morale, your wardogs should sit just behind your Infantry. Whilst it has been noted that dogs aren't too good against Heavy Infantry, the way to resolve it is to wait until the enemy hit your lines, and then release the dogs.
Your enemy will be trying to stab your front line whilst rather annoyed Dobermanns are trying to nibble their important places.
A third but risky use is against the cowardly archers that are slowly whittling down your lines, but that can be dodgy as your handlers sometimes get too close to the enemy lines before releasing and whilst dogs are respawned after a battle, your handlers aren't !!!
good hunting.
I once came up against a whole Brutii AI army of wardogs!?! About six units of them rampaged through my principe (spelling?) line and almost won the battle.
I find Wardogs usefull against enemy light (without armor) archers, they cause confusion and all the archers set to skirmish will run, die and just get out of the fight scene which is the best afterall, beacause if they are running they arent firing.
In overall i like Wardogs on the enemy side, because my troops like the damm poodles with a little potato and salad on the side...its usally a pretty soft and tasty meal....
Ive had problems with dogs attacking my own units any one else?
well personly i think there weak i had about 1400 men as julii and the gauls had about 1700 about 200 of them being dogs and i had 4 units of town watch 6 units of barbarian mercenarys, 1 general, 1 unit of velites, 3 barbarian cavalry and 1 equites, and 4 hastati.. i layed my men out in the woods and moved my general up to get the enemy to come out of hiding the pincered my men in killing off 99% of that assault losing about 49% then the 200 dogs come up, routed my remaining town watch, then my cavalry chased them down with no loses to them.. lost another 3% due to town watch.. pretty pethetic if u ask me
pockettank, Wardogs aren't effective used on their own - the AI is clueless, a player isn't.
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Originally Posted by Shieldmaiden
hehe well ive never been able to use them either so i guess the AI and me are equal with wardogs lmao :sweatdrop: oh well i dont use them so im happy :2thumbsup:
i still haven't trained wardogs the whole time I have been playing because I thought that they would really stink at fighting but from what i've been hearing I'm going to train 10 units