My humble opinion of RTW.

I got RTW for Christmas, and have literally just finished the full Julii campaign on Very Hard/Very Hard (I've had other things to do, such as play America's Army and Football Manager 2005). Before I continue, I'd like to point out here that I'm a TW veteran with many Very Hard campaigns in Shogun and Med under my belt (indeed, I used to regularly post here under the name Inferno when MTW was first out) so I'm not exactly a newcomer to the format. I should also say that I started playing Rome with the expectation that it would be the best strategy game I had ever played.

So, bearing in mind that I have been a TW fan and player since the original Shogun, here are my humble and considered opinions of Rome after more than 30 hours of play:

- I'm going to start with the positives. The strategy map is MARGINALLY better in Rome than it was in Med or Shog. I say marginally because there are plenty of things about it that I don't like (such as all the needless graphical "bells and whistles" that Rome has compared to the previous two which means it runs considerably worse on my not-too-far-above min spec machine). Being able to move armies wherever obviously adds a new dimension to the strategic side of the game, and is by far and away the best change in Rome. There are also plenty of small changes that make life easier in Rome, not least the fact that money is taken from your coffers as you queue a unit, not when it is built.

- Music is very good throughout, as are the sound effects. Sound is possibly the one area in which Rome comprehensively beats the previous games in the series.

- The battle map is graphically superb.

- Everything else about the battle map sucks...and sucks hard. Where to start? The computer's AI is laughable...not just bad, utterly pathetic. It will let you fire every single arrow your archers posess at it without moving more often than not...and rarely does it attempt to flank you (and even when it does, it uses pathetic troops that have less chance of winning than a midget pole-vaulter). It always (and I do mean ALWAYS) charges generals straight into the front of powerful units...and sometimes will happily circle the general about right in front of enemy missile troops. However, watching it pathetically attempt to defend a siege is the worst. It has one tactic...stand behind the gate. "What? They're sapping through the side wall? Ah well, someone else will deal with it. Oh, crap, have we just lost because some horse sneaked into the middle for 3 minutes? Curses!" (I have the replay of this to prove it...)

- In fact, the above doesn't accurately express my feelings about the battle map AI. I'm not sure if this forum allows swearing, so I will just say: The AI is very, very bad. Do not buy this game expecting it to provide any more than feeble resistance. Put the MTW AI up against the RTW AI in a level match and MTW will kick its ass sideways. :duel:

- The AI on the strategy map has its share of issues as well. It has captains leading vast armies while family members stand around idly with 100 men. It frequently creates 20 separate fleets of 1 ship each. It lays sieges then calls them off if even a tiny number of troops move near to the sieging army. It expands at a snail's pace, even when it has the resources to crush all its opponents. Its less noticeably bad than the battle map ai, but don't be fooled into thinking that its anything more than average.


Conclusions:

RTW was voted game of the year by IGN. Frankly, in my humble opinion, it does not deserve this accolade. It beats its older brothers in the aesthetic departments of sound and graphics, but loses out badly in the area of gameplay. I for one am astonished to find the AI so much worse in Rome...surely the algorithms and logic needed to make it as good as MTW were already in existence? ~:confused:

If the next patch does not SERIOUSLY improve the quality of the battlemap AI, my time playing SP in Rome is over. MTW provided me with many hundreds of hours of enjoyment. Rome, just 30. I can honestly say that I have never been so disappointed with a game since the release of Black & White, and I cannot recommend it to anybody in its current state.

I apologise in advance if this is an unpopular view. I am stating as I have found.

Thanks for your review, and welcome back ~:wave:

We still have your old account (showing you joined Sep 02) and could possibly reactivate it. If you're interested, please PM me, or email jim@jimcee.com with "TW" in the subject-line.

It is not such an unpopular view as you think, many here feel the same way. It is just that in MTW they focused on historical accuracy and gameplay, but with RTW they went a bit too far trying to appeal the Half Life/Farcry/Doom crowd, that mostly killed RTW. Though I still hope that it will get better after a patch or an expansion.

Yes indeed, you shoudl have seen the forums when this game first came out, quite a few people share you view, as well as I. go back to MTW liek I have, you will lose a lot less sleep over it and it brings your blood pressure down (this is not an accuarate medical claim, just an opinion of mine and i am not a doctor, so take it for what its worth, i claim no responsibility if you get less sleep or you see no improvement in blood pressure)

CA said they had this one chance to get it right with the patch. Perhaps they meant that ActiVision only allows 1 patch (as with M:TW). But I think that CA feels (and rightly so IMO) that if they cannot improve R:TW enough with the patch that people will desert it.

I'm modding for R:TW and that is keeping me from being confronted with the bugs and flaws. But with all the talk from MPers and SPers I'm getting to feel a bit uneasy that when we're done modding we realize that the game is still crap.

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Originally Posted by SoxSexSax

I got RTW for Christmas, and have literally just finished the full Julii campaign on Very Hard/Very Hard (I've had other things to do, such as play America's Army and Football Manager 2005). Before I continue, I'd like to point out here that I'm a TW veteran with many Very Hard campaigns in Shogun and Med under my belt (indeed, I used to regularly post here under the name Inferno when MTW was first out) so I'm not exactly a newcomer to the format. I should also say that I started playing Rome with the expectation that it would be the best strategy game I had ever played.

So, bearing in mind that I have been a TW fan and player since the original Shogun, here are my humble and considered opinions of Rome after more than 30 hours of play:

- I'm going to start with the positives. The strategy map is MARGINALLY better in Rome than it was in Med or Shog. I say marginally because there are plenty of things about it that I don't like (such as all the needless graphical "bells and whistles" that Rome has compared to the previous two which means it runs considerably worse on my not-too-far-above min spec machine). Being able to move armies wherever obviously adds a new dimension to the strategic side of the game, and is by far and away the best change in Rome. There are also plenty of small changes that make life easier in Rome, not least the fact that money is taken from your coffers as you queue a unit, not when it is built.

- Music is very good throughout, as are the sound effects. Sound is possibly the one area in which Rome comprehensively beats the previous games in the series.

- The battle map is graphically superb.

- Everything else about the battle map sucks...and sucks hard. Where to start? The computer's AI is laughable...not just bad, utterly pathetic. It will let you fire every single arrow your archers posess at it without moving more often than not...and rarely does it attempt to flank you (and even when it does, it uses pathetic troops that have less chance of winning than a midget pole-vaulter). It always (and I do mean ALWAYS) charges generals straight into the front of powerful units...and sometimes will happily circle the general about right in front of enemy missile troops. However, watching it pathetically attempt to defend a siege is the worst. It has one tactic...stand behind the gate. "What? They're sapping through the side wall? Ah well, someone else will deal with it. Oh, crap, have we just lost because some horse sneaked into the middle for 3 minutes? Curses!" (I have the replay of this to prove it...)

- In fact, the above doesn't accurately express my feelings about the battle map AI. I'm not sure if this forum allows swearing, so I will just say: The AI is very, very bad. Do not buy this game expecting it to provide any more than feeble resistance. Put the MTW AI up against the RTW AI in a level match and MTW will kick its ass sideways. :duel:

- The AI on the strategy map has its share of issues as well. It has captains leading vast armies while family members stand around idly with 100 men. It frequently creates 20 separate fleets of 1 ship each. It lays sieges then calls them off if even a tiny number of troops move near to the sieging army. It expands at a snail's pace, even when it has the resources to crush all its opponents. Its less noticeably bad than the battle map ai, but don't be fooled into thinking that its anything more than average.


Conclusions:

RTW was voted game of the year by IGN. Frankly, in my humble opinion, it does not deserve this accolade. It beats its older brothers in the aesthetic departments of sound and graphics, but loses out badly in the area of gameplay. I for one am astonished to find the AI so much worse in Rome...surely the algorithms and logic needed to make it as good as MTW were already in existence? ~:confused:

If the next patch does not SERIOUSLY improve the quality of the battlemap AI, my time playing SP in Rome is over. MTW provided me with many hundreds of hours of enjoyment. Rome, just 30. I can honestly say that I have never been so disappointed with a game since the release of Black & White, and I cannot recommend it to anybody in its current state.

I apologise in advance if this is an unpopular view. I am stating as I have found.

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IMHO, you really take yourself way too seriously.

Sadly, most of your conclusions are spot on...

If CA can't make it work with the patch, well, that might just be the begining of the end for the total war series...

I'm hoping the patch helps, but they've just worked several months on it as opposed to several years on the game....

Crazed Rabbit

hi soxsexsax, how have you got a replay of a sp battle? also if you want all those things fixed go to www.rometotalrealism.com i downloaded this mod and it has completely changed mine, and a fair few others perceptions of rome total war :)

I totally agree on the AI thing.

As a total newcomer to TW with ROme, and only played 3 or 4 campaigns (just about to win my first Hard/Hard big campaign), I have to say the only thing that stands out as being sub-standard is the AI, it is phenomanally dumb, especially when attacking a settlement.

Even as a new player, im confident I could beat away any huge army of twice the size and beyond, whenever it attempts to attack one of my settlemtents.

You are right on. I played Medieval (with mods) consistently for well over a year. I played Rome for a couple of weeks and haven't been back since. I'm hoping that some creative modders can give this game a second life for me (I haven't found a mod that does the trick yet) otherwise it is a huge disappointment and a waste of 50 bucks.

Well, maybe you're right. It just seems that I like to play MTW a lot more than Rome. Still. MTW is my favourite game ever, I thought Rome was going to change it. I don't know what it was, it just doesn't do it.

There was something deffinately lost from MTW ---> RTW. Undoubtedly one of the things that helped to make the game seem and feel more shallow was the arcade style that were thrown into it which totally don't suit the Total War genre. Another reason may be that the Roman Era just isn't suited for a game similar in atmosphere that MTW had; the depth and cool "Medieval" feeling. If the patch fixes the game's many oversights then after that I'm hoping that the EB mod will draw me back into a Total War addict phase... but I'm not holding my breath.

Medieval is not that cool.

It depends on how forgiving you are (of the past).

But the AI in Rome is not better, while other things are.



Poor AI, often neglected. My hope is that in future TW series, dual core processors will have 1 dedicated to AI, and the other to graphics. Ah, if only then were now...

I also share the popular opinion of RTW's shortcomings. If you want to spice up your SP game, some members here have already gave some suggestions that worked for me (somewhat).

Try playing with HUGE armies.
When you have enough surplus cash, give obscene amounts to different factions and watch them emulate Alexander in province grabbing.
Try downloading the Total Realism Mod: new units, slower kill rates, longer building times. It gives a different feel to the game.
Or wait for half a year for the mods to be downloadable.

And yes, the Chivalric Men-at-Arms can carve a path through any Hastati/Princepes battle line :knight: .

thats cos they have better quality weapons and armour :)

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Originally Posted by Wishazu

hi soxsexsax, how have you got a replay of a sp battle? also if you want all those things fixed go to www.rometotalrealism.com i downloaded this mod and it has completely changed mine, and a fair few others perceptions of rome total war :)

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Hi Wish.

I got the replay by (and I know this sounds a little odd, but hear me out) clicking the "Save Replay" button that appears at the end of a Custom Battle (I was practising sieging large cities, back LONG before I realised that you dont need to practise to rule Rome). I was as surprised as you were to find that the Save Replay button actually SAVED a replay, but it was a welcome find, I'll admit. :) BTW, if you choose not to believe me (and why should you after all, you don't know me from Adam) then post an e-mail address and I shall send you the file (OMGCrapAI.rpy).

As far as installing a non-official mod goes, I have just this to say: why the hell should I have to install the community's fixes to CA's problems? Why should I trust the community not to have introduced more problems? And additionally, all the community can do is alter the stats of the units...it does not address the fact that the AI's underlying tactics are plop of the highest degree of all ploppiness.

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Originally Posted by enigma6584

IMHO, you really take yourself way too seriously.

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I totally agree.

It's easy enough to pick fault with the game. But lets not forget what a quantum leap it represents. There is so much about the game that is frankly stunning. If it wasn't excellent we wouldn't all be playing the game into the early hours of the morning would we?

You remind me of that new character from the TV series World Shut Your Mouth. He goes to the Great Wall of China, looks it up and down, snears, turns to the nearest Chinese and says "It's sh*t."

Besides, if RTW is so sh*t, what do you care? I don't like lots of games but I've got better things to do than go onto their fansites to slam them.

There's a reason I mod MTW and refuse to touch RTW. It's because MTW is enjoyable and RTW is not.
The campaign map killed it for me. It felt like I was playing 'Civilization' or 'Heros of Might and Magic' instead of a Total War game.
The battles are wonderful, but come on... the AI certainly needs a fix when the enemy king will sit in front of your stone walls and do nothing while your towers and archers pelt him with arrows. Good job, CA, you just emulated the Suicide Squad from Monty Python's Life of Brian. "Suicide Squad, attack!"

Sure, it has flaws, but so does MTW! I've played it enough to know that, plus the campaign game is simplistic compared to RTW. If you don't like it for whatever reason that's cool with me, but just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's rubbish. I seem to remember MTW had a few problems too...... and was a far less complex game.

As for the Suicide Squad, on V hard/ V hard I haven't found this to usually be the case. Sure I use my General to lure units into artillery range but they always retreat to safety, and occasionally their archers get my General.

You don't like it, good for you, that doesn't mean it's sh*t.

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Originally Posted by kekvitirae

There's a reason I mod MTW and refuse to touch RTW. It's because MTW is enjoyable and RTW is not.
The campaign map killed it for me. It felt like I was playing 'Civilization' or 'Heros of Might and Magic' instead of a Total War game.
The battles are wonderful, but come on... the AI certainly needs a fix when the enemy king will sit in front of your stone walls and do nothing while your towers and archers pelt him with arrows. Good job, CA, you just emulated the Suicide Squad from Monty Python's Life of Brian. "Suicide Squad, attack!"

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I suggest playing the patch, many a fix has been implimented.

At the least, you can update the things you dislike about it rather than using one that's been fixed already. ~:cheers:

and Johnny the reason why we care that RTW is less enjoyable than MTW is precisely because we're fans of the Total War series and want to see RTW be as addicting to us as MTW was. Unfortunately, there are a few problems with RTW that many people can't get over - these are not just bugs and whatnot but more to do with the 'feel' of the game manifested in the kill speeds, fantasy units and shirtless barbarians; the bugs the patch fixed were just annoyances surrounding a larger situation.

The AI has always sucked in the TW games. Basically all complex games have piss poor AI, and without monster-sized buffs they never stand, anything that even resembles a chance. It took me less than an hour to get the hang of STW, and after that I could not be beaten unless the odds were impossible or I just goofed around. So it carries on all the way to RTW. The only reasons the AI might appear better in the previous games is because these games are less complex.

It suprises me that anyone who has already played STW or MTW expected any improvements in this area from RTW, you ppl should have learnt long ago how this business works. All you can do is to just find what's good with a game, and enjoy it for that, don't expect what's not already good to get better with sequels. NEVER. If it would happen, and it's more rare than gold, just see it as an added bonus or something.. And NEVER EVER listen to promises, it's like politics because it's about money. Promise it get's money equals good, doing it costs money equals bad, it's the only math you ever need to learn if you're getting into politics or publishing.

The fact that you're all moopy and whining about how you did not get what you expected is just irritating, given that you should already know how it plays. Do you also believe in santa claus perhaps? No? Because what you're expecting is mythology, it's less historical than the RTW campaign, it does'nt happen and never have.

If the world bought into your mentality there'd never be any technological progress.

We're hoping and voicing our desires for change and progress while you've given up on it because of past history, we haven't. I believe in proactively trying to change things that are not to my liking; if it doesn't happen then at least I tried to get it changed.

Oh and about the irritating part, the feeling is mutual: I'm irritated when people throw up their hands and accept sub-par standards.

Colovion:

"if it doesn't happen then at least I tried to get it changed."

And then you start whining about how you failed, or was the whining part the hoping and voicing of your desires?

Did you miss the scope of my post or something? If you don't like sub-par shit, why do you throw such posts at me? I never said anything about not expressing ones wishes, I was talking about realizing how things work and then act accordingly. I'm stating some facts here, carved in stone, if you want to press changes, then at least do so with these points in mind.

You are getting irritated for nothing, just as you would have been a whiner for nothing, it's just wasting yourself... I on the other hand might close some pieholes, because ppl such as Soxsexsax don't get payed to ventilate his rampant emotions, he might however realize how futile his efforts are.

The Dev's already know what sucks, they feel the same way, but *read my last post again*, so... Unless you can shit money out of yer arses and then shower CA with it, it will not do any difference.

:embarassed: i never played shogun but have more than 1 year spent on MTW with a 5-6 hours a day avreage.RTW has changed more on her outer look then on her inner(i mean tech. issues like game engine and soound rather then gameplay and feeling).i ussed to play MTW more on strategic map then in battles so i mostly used auto-resolve.do you think i dare try that in ROME?i learned if i dont want my campaign to end after one battle,dont use auto-resolve.i hope with 1.2 patch that AI is beter.the only thing that RTW is really about is the splendor of battles.So of to conquest of the world with sparta(HellenicTW) or better yet hungary or romania(MTW)!!!! ~:cheers: ~D

[QUOTE=TomteOfDoom]Colovion:
You are getting irritated for nothing, just as you would have been a whiner for nothing, it's just wasting yourself... I on the other hand might close some pieholes, because ppl such as Soxsexsax don't get payed to ventilate his rampant emotions, he might however realize how futile his efforts are.
[QUOTE]

Your attitude annoys me.

As I made VERY clear in my original post, I am a HUGE fan of the TW series. I bought Shogun the day it hit the shelves, and every single TW release since. If that doesn't give me ample right to come onto a forum and express my dissatisfaction at what I believe to be a poor outing in the TW series, I don't know what does.

Fact: Rome is far less fun than Med.

Fact: This is mainly down to laughable battlefield AI

Nobody wanted Rome to be better more than I did. I am bitterly disappointed with this software, which had (has) the potential to be superb. I just don't see HOW the AI could have gotten so much worse, and I felt like having a little rant. So sue me.

Ah, only just noticed the patch had been released.

I will try it, and if my faith is restored, be sure that I will come back here with nothing but praise and gratitude to CA.

I am critical of mediocrity but the 1st to applaud excellence.

same here, I have played shogun and medieval from the start. Never complete the game on Rome and I still like shogun the best, and second best medieval.
I'd have to say I dislike the campaign map in rome. The agents/army icon and routes are not bad, but I'm loathe to see stupid icons/info shown about the city.
Take Knights of Honor for example, there're the strutures shown on the campaign map and you can raid them, which is an important factor CA has not put into. And it's also a real time campaign map.
Managment has been easier in rome than to medieval but soon you can get a lot of armies everywhere, which imo is unrealistic. imo, armies should be recruited based on the trained/ available men. Barracks simply increase the number, and you can recruit all these men into an army one time if you have the money.
Downloaded the patch, but I still have no intention to play the game.

Are you ignorant to assume that CA has made the AI worse, did you not observe my clarification which is more true to facts than your emotional rants? The AI has not become any worse, the game has become more complex.

Obviously, CA has been engrossed with the new gimmicks which were supposed to sell the game and satisfy the main bulk of their fans and intrigue new customers, that they have had little time left to improve the way the game handles them. Now, big bad Activision does not want to give CA much time(money) to fix these issues, which are a real pain in the neck to the die-hard fans and the hardcore gamers, who indeed are busy forum-users, but not so numerous as the masses who are filling the coffers of Activision and thus also CA.

What have the die hard fans contributed to with their busy forum usage? They have put the ideas implemented in RTW on the billboard, but not the cash in the wallets of CA employees to now make them preform well in the game. Such is the truth of the situation....

Furthermore I think your reasoning in the line of 'I bought so ppl aught to listen to me nag' is kind of childish, at best retarded. I'm sure you feel justified yourself, because you are 'a big fan', and you have payed a relatively hefty amount of money to play these games, but seriously none of those concerned wants to listen to the kind of shit you've just served, no matter if you claim to be the biggest TW-fan ever.

This is instead of suing you, giving you a good verbal spanking, would you rather I do as you suggest? No, this is the roof of how lame I will ever get my friend. ~;)

This thread is get hysterical... It's always nice to see people passionate about something.

I ran the patch last night and played until 3am....... I think this debate will probably fade out as people install 1.2. So far, so good. It seems to have addressed every gripe. I won't go into the specifics, but overall, the campaign AI is much more sneaky and aggressive, as is the battle AI.

This being said, if RTW was such a turkey, it couldn't be magically turned into a good game with a patch. RTW, despite it's (now bannished) glitches and flaws, is still a stunning, beautiful, complex game. It would be nice if sometimes people would at least acknowledge this when mercilessly slagging off the game.

Go download the patch and let me know what you think

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Originally Posted by TomteOfDoom

Are you ignorant to assume that CA has made the AI worse, did you not observe my clarification which is more true to facts than your emotional rants? The AI has not become any worse, the game has become more complex.

Obviously, CA has been engrossed with the new gimmicks which were supposed to sell the game and satisfy the main bulk of their fans and intrigue new customers, that they have had little time left to improve the way the game handles them. Now, big bad Activision does not want to give CA much time(money) to fix these issues, which are a real pain in the neck to the die-hard fans and the hardcore gamers, who indeed are busy forum-users, but not so numerous as the masses who are filling the coffers of Activision and thus also CA.

What have the die hard fans contributed to with their busy forum usage? They have put the ideas implemented in RTW on the billboard, but not the cash in the wallets of CA employees to now make them preform well in the game. Such is the truth of the situation....

Furthermore I think your reasoning in the line of 'I bought so ppl aught to listen to me nag' is kind of childish, at best retarded. I'm sure you feel justified yourself, because you are 'a big fan', and you have payed a relatively hefty amount of money to play these games, but seriously none of those concerned wants to listen to the kind of shit you've just served, no matter if you claim to be the biggest TW-fan ever.

This is instead of suing you, giving you a good verbal spanking, would you rather I do as you suggest? No, this is the roof of how lame I will ever get my friend. ~;)

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You know how when people give feedback after playing a game and they have things they think could be fixed? That's us. If they aren't fixed - well that's not a bad thing, the game just won't be played. It's in their best interest to listen to their fans, we're just doing the first step here and hope for the best.

"thats us", "we are doing the first step here"..... Haha, ok comrade Colovion.. So what you're actually saying is that CA is ignorant enough to neither know nor care about the flaws of their productions so that you guys are a necessary component in all of this, but yet, still attentive enough to listen to what you out here are actually saying?

*throws head back and laughs hard*

I mean seriously.. You do realize they have their own play-testers, that their dev's have seen both the inner and the outer workings of this game for a longer time that any of us will ever even play it? The only reason they would ever take notice of whatever you write, except for, what I've already stated, your wishes for upcoming titles, is because it will make you feel like you have an active part in this, and that makes you happy. And a happy customer is a buying customer.

They have put every effort into making this game as good as they possibly could, now they are refining it as much as they can before they have to move on, this they will do wether you sit here doing what you think are essentials. Why? Well, if not because they have some sort of feelings for what they have tended for the last years, so at least for the fact that you want to clean up as good as possible if you happen to leave a dodoo on the floor, right?

So, do you actually think that they did not already know what needed to be fixed? Because I'll tell you, before you had even bought the game, they knew exactly what they would have to be doing with the patches.

Sure, spend hours writing your wish-lists, I don't care, but make it sound like CA owes you something and truly needs your help, and that you have just causes to add a causic attitude to your "voicing", then you are just bound to piss people like me off.

Then I in turn will write these rants about changes I want made to the forums in the future, like, remove those annoying little buggers who always pop up whining and shit, they ruin my forum-surfin experience, and I like, regged for this...

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So, do you actually think that they did not already know what needed to be fixed? Because I'll tell you, before you had even bought the game, they knew exactly what they would have to be doing with the patches.

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You do realize that they did not know about the primary/secondary stat bug and the patch was postponed after a poster notified CA.

The Shogun at the CA boards said that they could not compete with the playing time spend by thousands of players and that they consequently could oversee some flaws. Which is only logical because you simply cannot playtest every situation.

Ohboy... Well, don't mind me too much, I'm just a mad-man. Should stay away from forums all together, I just end up doing stuff like this, and it's... Well, really embarassing... :wall:

I withdraw my statements and apologize as always.

Somebody shoot me!
:thinking2: