Horse Archers are BROKEN in 1.2 patch!

A few people over at the Com and TWC have brought to light a HUGE bug which affects mounted bow equipped units (chariots included). Apparently mounted archer units cannot properly fire their missiles while galloping ('running') towards or away from an enemy!

http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...ID=20725.topic

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index...howtopic=20731

Some choice quotes...

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I just discovered something real strange in custom battles after patch 1.2 is applied. Missile cav can not shoot on the move now. Instead there's animation of the archer getting ready to aim and fire but no arrow comes out. even though the unit card says they are firing, animation is moving, but no arrow is being shot out. they are only shoot while stationary or in cantabrian circle.

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I have the exact same problem. I was in the middle of a Scythian campaign and could take down pretty much any infantry army of any size with just a couple of horse archers. After the patch they get chased around for ages by the enemy and never get a shot off. Sometimes they do shoot but no arrows fly, just the sound. During a siege the enemy would sally out of the front gate and would have to get within javelin range before they would start getting killed. It seems like maybe they messed with the range. As it stands, they're about as useless as HA in MTW--they run before they get a shot off.

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Even after they halt, the arrows fail for one cycle.

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Well, it's not entirely gone.
Just tested a battle of scythian horse arches vs peasants -
They do fire as they used to while in Canterbarian circle
they also shoot while riding at slow speed, although firerate seemed very slow
they do NOT fire while running, and therefore not while moving away in "skirmish mode"

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I've verified this bug myself in a few custom battles.

CA may have a two patch deal with Activision but this is a big bug. We'd better start screaming our heads off now and demand a fix otherwise it'll be a looooong wait until the expansion comes out.

i dunno if that is a bug or not. Usually an arrow(or rifle) aimed from horseback was uselessly innacurate.

yes, but it still fired, didn't it
screams!

excellent, maybe now there can be a third patch to fix the few things that were missed? ie: campaign map replays etc...

I am absolutely sure that I was just shot at by galloping Pontos Missle Cavalry (in 1.2, no mods). They had one or two units left, and I was chasing their missle cav with a general and my javelin cavalry. They were not routing, but were running away from me. I saw the little 'being fired upon' icon over my general and zoomed in. There were no other units around, and my javelins were out of missles. I just happened to be right in tight on their cavalry when they spun around in their seats, lifted their bows and fired at me (behind them) at a full gallop. A second or two later they routed when my guys caught up with them. I don't think my guys died, so I can't confirm that the shots killed anyone, but i saw them shoot just a few minutes ago. I was playing as Seleukids. Dunno if there are problems elsewhere, but i'm just saying what I saw. I can't confirm the cantabrian circle or any of that other stuff either.

Can't try to retest this now. Gotta get some sleep.

Lest someone doubt. Instead of "spun around", probably "twisted at the waist" would be more accurate for what they did. Some clown will say "see! he's lyin'!"

I did a test:

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ovion/fonz.jpg

Seems like they're all sitting out there going "heeeey" like the Fonz with their bows (this was with them walking BTW). THey'd do that for a while and then one or two of them would fire and then they'd gallop away to do that again. I used about as many arrows as in MTW and eventually got fed up and charged into the enemy, losing some of my valuable horse archers.

:*(

I already told the reason at .com yesterday, but I'm afraid I was a bit ignored...*Sigh*

The fact is that cavalry archers SHOOT WHILE MARCHING/RUNNING. As I told yesterday:

" If you want your cavalry archers shoot to any direction while running, you must turn off skirmish mode. Simple as that.

In skirmish mode, they will shoot while running if they march frontally to their target; in other case, they will be too worried watching to avoid possible threats and they don't spend time aiming and shooting unless the target is clear for them."

So consider this like a realistic new feature.

This is not applied to javelins because that would make these units useless.

And that's is for cavalry as well as for chariots. Cantabrian circle is another story: only really shoot those horses that are just in front of target, as always.

I've run some tests and I've sometimes heard an occasional arrow being fired (only about two or three from a unit), however, I haven't been able to see if an arrow has been fired or not.

Most likely it seems the cause for this is the FF fix; the horse archers are now judging that the chance of hitting one of their companions is too great and so they don't fire!

Celtibero Mordred, I'll have to take a look at that. It seems strange that they can run and shoot only with skirmish mode turned off, seeing as they could to it fine before! It'd be really annoying to have to do this, as it means even more micromanagement.

Try it and you will see I am right

That means I'll be screwed playing as the Parthians... The greater bulk of their armies (especially early on) are going to be Horse Archers, and there is no way I can micro them all by turning skirmish OFF.

This seems to be a bug as my Parthians did have trouble with them all lifting their bows and then deciding to lower them again without shooting.

Haven't tried it yet. Sounds like a bug to me. One of the improvements of RTW had been the horse archers.

While we may be able to take HA off skirmish, will the AI? I doubt it. AI controlled HA will be useless.

Well i will have two installations of RTW one 1.2 for non HA factions and one 1.1 for Parthia, Armenia Scythia, while in the online aspect the HA factions will diminish as the Mongols in MTW VI...

Hellenes

Nobody's a bigger HA fan than me, but even I have to admit that HA in the unpatched game were overpowered.

Now I hope they haven't been nerfed. I've had about zero RTW since going out of town on business.

I used some horse archers yesterday, and they were firing on the move, as were as far as i could tell the enemy chariots.

Doug,

I don't think you are going to like it much. I tested this out with some Scythian HA's vs. hastati. Other than one cycle, they no longer fire when withdrawing in skirmish. That is how they were *meant* to be used. After that they do the animation for the Parthian shot, but they never fire. It is pretty much broken. The HA's managed 2 kills vs. those 81 hastati...before the HA's (left in skirmish) ended up against the map edge.

Funny thing about it prepatch was that HA's were one of the few archer units that I only very slightly nerfed in 1.1. I heavily nerfed the regular archers on range and missile attack. The problem was in the AI countering them (bringing the right armies to the field, and fighting them properly), not in their ability. Note that it won't matter much for AI vs. AI because those will be autocalc'ed anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

i dunno if that is a bug or not. Usually an arrow(or rifle) aimed from horseback was uselessly innacurate.

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Really? I would be very interested in the source of this information, considering it contradicts all the reports that I have read on the subject of Horse Archery among the many peoples of the Asiatic Steppes.

I do not agree with Celtibero Mordred's statement about accuracy either. So you now have no FAW while skirmishing away from enemy? Why then would the mode be called 'skirmish' if they clearly do not 'skirmish'???

I waited ages for 'realistic' horse archers [ firing on the move, Parthian shot etc ] we had them finally and now CA have dropped another one.

Oh well I guess RTW will stay on my shelf

.......Orda

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Originally Posted by Celtibero Mordred

I already told the reason at .com yesterday, but I'm afraid I was a bit ignored...*Sigh*

The fact is that cavalry archers SHOOT WHILE MARCHING/RUNNING. As I told yesterday:

" If you want your cavalry archers shoot to any direction while running, you must turn off skirmish mode. Simple as that.

In skirmish mode, they will shoot while running if they march frontally to their target; in other case, they will be too worried watching to avoid possible threats and they don't spend time aiming and shooting unless the target is clear for them."

So consider this like a realistic new feature.

This is not applied to javelins because that would make these units useless.

And that's is for cavalry as well as for chariots. Cantabrian circle is another story: only really shoot those horses that are just in front of target, as always.

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No, it's not realistic and it's a bonafide bug. Why? Historically nomadic peoples of the steppes were notoriously good with a bow in the saddle, regardless of whether they were shooting while at a gallop, trot, walk or standing still. Call it the result of spending several hours a day on the back of a horse or pony since the time you could walk.

But the worst part about this bug is now the AI is royally SCREWED when using any kind of mounted archer units, especially horse archers. The AI never turns off Skirmish mode for these units unless they run out of ammo and can charge a weak or routing unit. Essentially any AI army with horse archers will now be a pushover for a human controlled army with cheap cavalry. Since the Parthian Shot is also nerfed by this bug your cavalry can eventually charge into their rear or flank without losing any men to arrows.

In one fell swoop Parthia, Armenia and Scythia have been effectively declawed by this ridiculous bug.

God! Why can't the people at CA get anything right? This is pathetic!

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i dunno if that is a bug or not. Usually an arrow(or rifle) aimed from horseback was uselessly innacurate.

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Wrong.

Of course it's not realistic, and it had better be a bug, and they had better fix it fast. I'm sick and tired of this crap.

Sounds like a bug induced by the fixing of the friendly fire bug to me.

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Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

Nobody's a bigger HA fan than me...

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Guess you never met Magyar Khan then ~:)

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Doug,

I don't think you are going to like it much. I tested this out with some Scythian HA's vs. hastati. Other than one cycle, they no longer fire when withdrawing in skirmish. That is how they were *meant* to be used. After that they do the animation for the Parthian shot, but they never fire. It is pretty much broken. The HA's managed 2 kills vs. those 81 hastati...before the HA's (left in skirmish) ended up against the map edge.

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Yep. Put in the patch today and did a 1 on 1 battle with a spear unit.

It's exactly like javelin troops in MTW. Left on skirmish, they'll never fire -- except the HA can fire with Cantabrian circle.

So, Cantabrian circle may have a point now.

The HA got exhausted and couldn't run away though. Fatigue will be a big factor.

This change is sure a heavy hit to HA, but all is not lost. I'm sure that two HA working together can still decimate a phalanx. In fact, the AI should start chasing the one firing -- which means they will stop chasing the skirmishing one that stop firing, which can start firing again.

But what about the AI? They never use the Cantabrianian Circle!
Also, I never use it, as it's ahistorical and I think it sucks.

How dare you call yourself a horse archer fan, and not think this is horrible.

(Just kidding. ~;) )

well this certanly makes Armenia,Parthia,Pontus(in a minor part),Sarmatia and Numidia(in a minor part).i think that the "ELITE" HA like Catapracht A,Sarmatian Noble Arcers and Persian cavalary and DEFENETLY Chariot Archers(were there are 3 peoaple,and should NOt be affected by this) should not be affected because they are exepctional at their job,so they could not be bothered by runing and shoting.i think.

anyway that will defenetly give more chances to cav. against HA's.
:charge: Light Cav. is my army made of!!! :charge: HAHAHAHAHAH!! :charge:

well this certanly makes Armenia,Parthia,Pontus(in a minor part),Sarmatia and Numidia(in a minor part) unplayebale.i think that the "ELITE" HA like Catapracht A,Sarmatian Noble Arcers and Persian cavalary and DEFENETLY Chariot Archers(were there are 3 peoaple,and should NOt be affected by this) should not be affected because they are exepctional at their job,so they could not be bothered by runing and shoting.i think.

anyway that will defenetly give more chances to cav. against HA's.
:charge: Light Cav. is my army made of!!! :charge: HAHAHAHAHAH!! :charge:

Oh, it's definitely horrible, Steppe Merc. :bow: It's just not proven to be the complete, unmitigated disaster that it appears to be.

If there aren't any good tactics to offset these changes, THEN it's completely horrible.

The frustrating thing is that I can't get any playtime until weekends now, and it's limited then.

OK, I'm not normally in favour of baiting the developers, especially when the majority of what they have delivered seems well received, but this....???? True, the Human player can get round the (lack of) functionality to some extent through some unwanted micromanagement, but will the AI be able to cope? I doubt it.

Can't see why it should be the FF fix that has done it (though I don't know the code obviously) as from what people have said it happens when there are no other friendlies around. Consequently, one can only assume it's a deliberate change in the HA combat routines. But WHY have they done it?

I think in this case some CA contribution would be of value to the community. And to the community as a whole - if we do get some comments, don't flame the hell out of them before they get started...

Cheers,

Rob.

I think we've found RTW's equivalent of the "King dies at 56" bug.

I think its more an implementation then a bug. I tested with Parthian HA's today, and found some interesting results. I tried the Persian Cavalry, they used the parthian shot effectively and like normal. Then I tried regular HA's, they didn't use it at all. This leads me to believe that only your elite HA's can actually use the Parthian shot.

After some testing I think that this might not be a FF issue. It would seem that HA fire *once per order*. In other words, order them to move somewhere, and they'll fire a volley. Then issue another move order, and they'll fire the second volley, regardless of where they are with respect to the enemy. If it was a FF issue they either wouldn't fire the volleys properly, or it would depend on where they are relative to the enemy. This is why it seems that switching the skirmish mode off seems to fix it - then you have to babysit them and constantly issue orders, each of which is followed by a volley. Skirmish OTOH moves them away, but the animation cycle is so long it gets interrupted when they pause after being far enough (or something to that effect, or they don't fire at all any more, I'm not sure here), so they have to start the animation over, hence they effectively fire only when standing still. They'll fire the parthian shot while being chased by the cavalry, but they won't continue firing after that and decimate the pursuers that will never be able to catch them - instead, you'll have to babysit them if you want them to massacre cavalry pursuers.
I've run 20 or so tests with different angles and velocities, and this basically came out as the only valid conclusion. I haven't tested much against cavalry though, mostly against levy pikemen.

So, IMO it's a "tweak". Do I like it - heck no!!! but I think this is how it works. Can anybody confirm this?

I've just run a few more custom battles, this time with cavalry - one unit of greek cav vs. one unit of HA. And it's a disgrace - not a single GC man got shot by the HA in the 5 battles I did! Those animation cycles are too long for the HA to take the parthian shot or whatever, but it's definitely not to my liking.

On a side note, it seems I still need to alt-charge the cataphracts for them to switch to maces later. I though that was supposed to be fixed?!

This is sounding worse all the time.

One thing to keep in mind is that infantry definitely makes better use of its shield while on the march. That bug's definitely been fixed -- which means spear units are even more invulnerable to the weakened HA. I was barely able to kill anything unless my unit was firing into their backsides.

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Originally Posted by Spino

But the worst part about this bug is now the AI is royally SCREWED when using any kind of mounted archer units, especially horse archers. The AI never turns off Skirmish mode for these units unless they run out of ammo and can charge a weak or routing unit.

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Sadly, this appears to be quite true.

Did a custom battle on Syrian fields, hard difficulty. I had a phalanx of levy pikemen. The enemy was one unit of Parthian HA. I clicked an attack, hit fast forward and let it run.

The phalanx chased the HA all over the map and was never even fired at.

I don't think it is a tweak or anything of that sort, here is the result of what I had found with some tests.

Horse archers don't fire at all when not in CTB circle, in skirmish mode.

Horse archers don't fire at all when not in CTB circle, with skirmish mode off.

Horse archers only fire when in CTB circle, skirmish mode on and off.

Horse archers only fire when standing still.

Personally in my opinnion, this is a critical bug for horse archers factions. Hope CA will address this issue asap so that the players could finally get a propper game. Overall I feel that they have done a good job with the new patch but then again they miss this one out. It must have been really crappy for them to find it out now..from us the fans...

They do fire. Walk them in front of a phalanx so they have time to do the animation. Once they let off the volley, give them a new move (walk) order. They'll fire again. It's just that it all adds up to nothing in the fast pace of the battle, for it doesn't matter that they fire in "controlled tests" when they don't do %#@$ when it counts (especially when controlled by the AI!!).

Too bad we can't set the range that they withdraw to before they try to fire. Perhaps we can use one of the speed adjustment hacks to increase their fire rate slightly so that they can get off a shot after each time they pull back and stop. I tried moving the "charge range" down from 40 to 30 but it had no impact. Still won't help vs. other cav though...

We might have to give them armour piercing as a bit of compensation. It wouldn't effect unarmoured and I don't think it would effect shields, but it would give them a bit of leverage on the heavies. I wouldn't do this for the higher missile stat HA's just the basic ones.

"Horse archers only fire when standing still."

gee, imagine that, reality.

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

"Horse archers only fire when standing still."

gee, imagine that, reality.

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Maybe your "reality" but not historical reality.

you try shooting an arrow accuratly from a gallopping horse.

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

you try shooting an arrow accuratly from a gallopping horse.

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I don't have to, but the Scythians and Parthians did.

from a gallop? no, they didnt.

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

from a gallop? no, they didnt.

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Parthians are famous for shooting behind them from a gallop. This is a bug that will cripple AI controlled Parthia and Scythia, I remember CA saying that HA will be able to shoot while moving. 1st we pay $54 for a game loaded with bugs then they give us a patch that takes away allot of the minor bug and replace it with a major bug.

RH is right Sam. LOT's of cultures used HAs...Japanese, Armenians, Scythians and the Mongols to name a few...
And they were quite accurate. Maybe not hit a flea in the left eye accurate, but 100 HAs don't need to be.

You can even join a modern club!
http://www.intlhorsearchery.org/about_us.htm

But it's off topic anyhoo...the fact remains.

They are broken.

And CA says no more patches.

If I am not mistaken...(and I'm not) several .org moderators have appeared in Total War game credits since day dot (dot -3 in fact ~;)

They have contacts.

They speak to people.

You know...people with names like...erm..I don't know, lets say...erm Jerome for example.

I seem to remember also a certain officer with marine trousers, posting this:



~:grouphug:


Lets see if'n they meant it.

Over to you Erado-sama, TosaInu and CBR.

(oops, was that to much?) ~:cheers:

"Parthians are famous for shooting behind them from a gallop." I believe that would be a legend. Or more accuratly a misenterpreted part of the basic tactic: fall back, turn around, shoot, continue falling back, turn around shoot, which is how mounted and unmounted skirmishers have fought for thousands of years.

to fire backwards from a galloping horse is just something you cant imagine happening on any large scale. You cannot hold reigns and fire(or reload) at the same time. Even if you do get a shot off, its likely to be wildly inaccurate.

certainly this is true: any aimed weapon is much less effective while its mount is moving.

Some of these folks didn't even use reins... the Numidians were doing the same sort of thing with a javelin. But anyway, you are never going to believe it so :wall: I've seen people do amazing things on horseback.

And even the lesser test you propose of halting doesn't work anymore in RTW. They halt but don't manage to get off the shot...at least not in most cases. It is busted.

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Originally Posted by Attalus

RH is right Sam. LOT's of cultures used HAs...Japanese, Armenians, Scythians and the Mongols to name a few...
And they were quite accurate. Maybe not hit a flea in the left eye accurate, but 100 HAs don't need to be.

You can even join a modern club!
http://www.intlhorsearchery.org/about_us.htm

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Interesting site. I was kind of on the fence about the accuracy of firing while moving, but the photos on that site convinced me.

BTW, it said the History Channel was filming at their festival last year. Any idea when they will be doing a show about it?

i haven't seen it in this topic, but are javalin cavalry effected by this?

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

"Parthians are famous for shooting behind them from a gallop." I believe that would be a legend. Or more accuratly a misenterpreted part of the basic tactic: fall back, turn around, shoot, continue falling back, turn around shoot, which is how mounted and unmounted skirmishers have fought for thousands of years.

to fire backwards from a galloping horse is just something you cant imagine happening on any large scale. You cannot hold reigns and fire(or reload) at the same time. Even if you do get a shot off, its likely to be wildly inaccurate.

certainly this is true: any aimed weapon is much less effective while its mount is moving.

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Of course it would be if any of us tried it , but then none of us have grown up practising extensivly in drill and play every day since the age of five , practically living in a saddle , having to hunt our own food just to survive {most horse nomad cultures insist their young adolescents prove themselves in tests of solo survival as a way to weed out the weak} and being expected to paricipate fully in open warefare from as young as 14 .

Those horse archers were terrifically skilled by todays soft standards . That there are still some people today whom have gathered the skills to perform those feats without even close to the same level of teaching {where you going to find an entire tribe of master horse archers to immerse a kid in today ?} or pressure {those historical Horse Archers' lives depended on their skills , and not just in war , it isn't easy to get enough food each day to feed entire families on the Steppes without modern technology , hunting was vital and very demanding of skill} should give some indication of what people raised immeresed in the skills and associated traditions could really do .

The Mongols would place three arrows between the fingers of their bow hand , notch a fourth and fire twice when they charged , once as they wheeled away and again over their shoulders as they rode away . They would then prepare another selection of arrows to do it again .
Control of the horse was with their knees .

Just because you couldn't ever manage it , doesn't mean many didn't .
Had you lived in such a tribe you might have picked it up naturally being born into it , or merely died young due to ineptitude which was rather common back then . Entire armies of men {and some women} did master the skills and were so effective in their ideal terrain that the only time conventional armies could beat them was when posessed of some remarkable advantage such as overwhelming numbers or a towering genius like Alexander to command them .

The bug is a serious problem that needs fixing .

The bottom line is, it matters little to me whether they were able to do this IRL or not. The fact is that the HA I use in the game and the AI-controlled HA in particular have become barely usable (to say the least). As the things are now, they may as well be unarmed or have to dismount each time before they shoot. At least in STW/MTW they had faster animations/were faster relative to other units/didn't skirmish so erratically, and they managed to fire a volley now and then.... :furious:

Can any of the people from the .org who participated in patch beta testing comment on this? Did we guess the crux of the issue correctly? Is there (or will there be) anything that can be done about it?

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Originally Posted by hrvojej

After some testing I think that this might not be a FF issue. It would seem that HA fire *once per order*. In other words, order them to move somewhere, and they'll fire a volley. Then issue another move order, and they'll fire the second volley, regardless of where they are with respect to the enemy. If it was a FF issue they either wouldn't fire the volleys properly, or it would depend on where they are relative to the enemy. This is why it seems that switching the skirmish mode off seems to fix it - then you have to babysit them and constantly issue orders, each of which is followed by a volley. Skirmish OTOH moves them away, but the animation cycle is so long it gets interrupted when they pause after being far enough (or something to that effect, or they don't fire at all any more, I'm not sure here), so they have to start the animation over, hence they effectively fire only when standing still. They'll fire the parthian shot while being chased by the cavalry, but they won't continue firing after that and decimate the pursuers that will never be able to catch them - instead, you'll have to babysit them if you want them to massacre cavalry pursuers.
I've run 20 or so tests with different angles and velocities, and this basically came out as the only valid conclusion. I haven't tested much against cavalry though, mostly against levy pikemen.

So, IMO it's a "tweak". Do I like it - heck no!!! but I think this is how it works. Can anybody confirm this?

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I did more test and I have to say you are right, that's what happens, and the reason why they do fire when they are in skirmish mode off. I'm afraid we will have to use cantabrian circle more often now.

At least horse/chariots archers haven't become useless (they weren't in previous TW): they can shoot standing still, and while moving under certain circumstances... But yes, it's annoying. CA said 1.2 would be the last patch, so let's hope they finally release a small unnofficial fix for this issue before the expansion pack.

I have only tested the roman javelin cavalry, but they are ok.

I just tried Armenian horse archers in RTW v1.2, and they work fine in skirmish while being chased by enemy cav. They gallop away from the enemy cav which is chasing them and fire backward at the pursuing cav and get kills. I can see the arrows as they are released, and the unit fires multiple times while continuously running. Once they far enough ahead of the pursuers, which in this case were Companion cav, the horse archer stops and turns to shoot. They don't have enough time to set up and shoot before they have to start skirmishing back away from the galloping Companion cav. This seems ok.

I just tried Parthian horse archers, and they also work correctly able to fire backwards while on the move in skirmish mode.

Sorry, but I don't think HA are broken at all. The devs expect you to use the special ability is all.

The cantabrian circle is great! Horse archers are devastating from the circle. They do everything you guys seem to want from the circle formation.

So what's wrong with using the cantabrian circle? I don't get it. The animations in the circle have the men shooting from all sorts of angles. The Parthian shot is there. I just tested it myself. When I took 54 Scythian HA against 80 Armenian hillmen, the hillmen chased them all over the map and only lost 7 men until I put the HA into the circle. VOILA! The circling HA shot the hillmen to pieces while constantly maintaining their distance and shooting continuously. When I ordered the HA to melee (turned off skirmish and CC) to finish off the last 7 hillmen, they fired as they charged and drew swords at the last moment. Perfect!

Cantabrian circle IS the answer. Use it.

Does the AI use cantabrian circle? If they want to force us to use the CC, they at least could have made the AI to do the same...

im afraid that anyone saying "Its like a new feature" and Mordred talking about skirmish mode are forgetting a few things, such as the fact that us forum users make up around what? 1% of all Total War players?

Most people will not know how to get round this, especially as its a feature in the games manual stating that cav archers will fire on the move automatically.

Saying that its not a problem for you is being short sighted and downright stupid like all those idiots on .com saying that no new patch will ever be needed.

For that matter CA, how about some badly needed rebalancing? Sod the small bugs, the fact egypt can beat anything with an army made of 2 different units is a serious enough bug for me.

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Originally Posted by Nelson

Sorry, but I don't think HA are broken at all. The devs expect you to use the special ability is all.

The cantabrian circle is great! Horse archers are devastating from the circle. They do everything you guys seem to want from the circle formation.

So what's wrong with using the cantabrian circle? I don't get it. The animations in the circle have the men shooting from all sorts of angles. The Parthian shot is there. I just tested it myself. When I took 54 Scythian HA against 80 Armenian hillmen, the hillmen chased them all over the map and only lost 7 men until I put the HA into the circle. VOILA! The circling HA shot the hillmen to pieces while constantly maintaining their distance and shooting continuously. When I ordered the HA to melee (turned off skirmish and CC) to finish off the last 7 hillmen, they fired as they charged and drew swords at the last moment. Perfect!

Cantabrian circle IS the answer. Use it.

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Great, we can use cantabrian circle when fighting one HA unit against 1 foot unit! Personally, I've never had a battle like that and when I've used CC in a big battle I found them to be unwieldy due to the space taken up by each unit, likely to be cut off and eliminated piecemeal, and therefore generally useless. So, I have to wonder how many times you've used it in a large battle?

Cantabrian circle sucks, and is ahistorical for horse archers. I've never used it. More importantly, the AI never uses. It is a game killer, and exteremly ahistorical, and I'm tired of all the people saying it isn't.
I'm even more sick of CA... they release crap like this, and people take it from them.

:rolleyes:

i'm sure modders will be able to fix this, as javalin cavalry still works properly, so it shouldn't be to difficult to fix

I just tried Armenian horse archers vs Sacred Band inf, and there is a problem that doesn't seem to happen when skirmishing against cav. I notice that when the HA skirmish to a safe distance they slow down and try to fire a volley while still facing away. Against cav in my previous tests this works and arrows are fired, but against the pursuing infantry unit no arrows are fired eventhough there is a full animation cycle and the sound of arrows being fired. Then the HA turn to face the infantry unit, but there usually isn't enough time to shoot before they have to skirmish away again. At this point, HA will often release a volley as they accelerate away from a cav unit, but I don't see any arrows fired at the persuing inf unit in the test.

This will be presented to CA as a serious issue. I don't know if we'll see another patch or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crownsteler

i'm sure modders will be able to fix this, as javalin cavalry still works properly, so it shouldn't be to difficult to fix

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It would probably be very easy to fix—if we had access to the decompiled executable. We don't. We can't effectively edit RTW.exe, and that's where the problem is.

-Simetrical

mr frost, you are right, none of us have grown up using bows.

however, many of us have played with guns. extensively. 10s of thousands of rounds. And I know 1 thing... you cant shoot(accuratly) while moving, no matter how much skill you think you have. Now granted shooting into a mass of men would take away some of innacuracy problem... but those ancient horse archers certainly would have tried to stop to fire, and if being persued by cavalry, there is no possible way they could have effectively returned fire.

RH, and if they dont shoot while stopped, that would be a bug, and a bad one, i agree.

Vrabac over at TWC has noticed something odd about the firing animation for ALL archer units...

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index...ic=20693&st=12

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I tried the javelin armed cavalry and they seem to work fine. On the other hand, I noticed that archers in general now aim higher. So maybe this is connected somehow? Javelinmen look exactly the same, only the javelins seem to travel in a more deep trajectory. But archers actually have slightly changed animation, so maybe that's where all the horse-archer problems come from? Also, i noticed that horse archers often lean back when refusing to shoot. Maybe it really has something to do with skeletons? Perhaps if you can somehow return old ones?

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I think this merits further investigation...

tell me, your horse is galloping at full speed, you don't hold on to it and instead u shoot a bow and arrow accurately?

Good lord. Please stop! You don't know anything about the steppe do you?
Horses can be controlled easily by only with your legs. These were the best.
YOU ARE WRONG. PLEASE STOP!
And bows are way more accurate than guns on horse back. Besides, I'd take a steppebowman over any wannabe gunslinger today.

Frankly, if you don't know what you talking about, don't tell us this. Because we want it fixed, and don't try and stop us from playing a good game. I'm sick of all the ignorant comments.

I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement. If some other people would test it out and see what they think I'd appreciate it. They may work a little too well with just this change ~;).

"I'd take a steppebowman over any wannabe gunslinger today."

rofl, and you accuse us of being ignorant?

you allready lost the test of history, buddy.

you know I watched a show on the discovery channel about japanese horse archers firing from a gallop. They had 1 shot with a preknocked bow. And they hit their targets. at 10 feet! Excuse me but I am not impressed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

however, many of us have played with guns. extensively. 10s of thousands of rounds. And I know 1 thing... you cant shoot(accuratly) while moving, no matter how much skill you think you have.

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Major Hawker, Royal Flying Corps, became an ace in 1915 by wiring a bolt-action rifle to his crate's fuselage at a 45-degree angle to the line of flight, so the rounds fired wouldn't hit the propeller.

French WWI Ace Rene Foch was able to shoot down aircraft with as few as seven rounds fired. Canadian ace Billy Bishop wrote in his memoirs that the target to hit was the upper half of the pilot's body. Bishop was also a master of the "head-on" shot, relying on his superior marksmanship and nerve.

While it is true that forward firing machine guns help, your statement that "you can't shoot(accurately) while moving" is false on its face, otherwise nothing would ever have been shot down in three-dimensional air-to-air combat with guns, sometimes at closing speeds of several hundred of miles per hour with simple optical sights.

===========

If horse archers stopped before they fired, then everyone would have had horse archers. It would not have required any special skill. The practice would not have been confined to Parthia and eastwards.

It should also be mentioned that Mongol light cavalry carried two bows: one for when they did dismount, one for shooting from horseback.

==========

The website already listed on this thread shows people taking archery shots at a gallop. It contains an well-verified account of a guy shooting at a wildcat in Florida from the back of a galloping horse. On his first attempt ever to shoot from a gallop, he missed only because he led the target, forgetting that he was moving too.

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Texas Rangers perfected the technique of charging in with pistols, the original Colt revolvers and their imitators.

Of course horsearchers could shoot while moving fast. Is it as accurate as when standing still? no. Are horsearchers as accurate as foot archers? no. But they still did it. We have lots of written accounts about it and if you doubt all of that then look at the competitions they do today.

I found this video in a TWC thread: http://www.streamload.com/horsearche...se_archery.wmv The last half of it shows it can be done.

The Cantabrian Circle (mainly used by javelin armed cavalry IIRC) is basically same principle: Move in close, shoot and move out. You are moving fast to present a difficult target and close in to get some good shots and quickly move away to reduce the danger.


CBR

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

"I'd take a steppebowman over any wannabe gunslinger today."

rofl, and you accuse us of being ignorant?

you allready lost the test of history, buddy.

you know I watched a show on the discovery channel about japanese horse archers firing from a gallop. They had 1 shot with a preknocked bow. And they hit their targets. at 10 feet! Excuse me but I am not impressed.

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There is no Steppe in Japan. Horseback archery [ Yamusabe ] or standing archery [ Kyudo ] is treated completely differently in Japan, with the emphasis being the perfection of draw and release. Hence it is an art which is more akin to meditation.

You make sweeping statements that contradict historical reports, so again I ask you to produce some source. There are many ways to make a point but all I have seen is your 'opinion' rather than 'factual report'.

Obviously you choose to ignore the many battle reports of those who actually came into contact with these people

.......Orda

Has anyone tested out Qwerty's fix?

And thank you Doug, CBR, and Orda. :bow:

And this was the last patch they were going to make... :charge:

I guess the morale of this story is be careful what you wish for. Ironic that fixing friendly fire broke horse archers. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX

I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement. If some other people would test it out and see what they think I'd appreciate it. They may work a little too well with just this change ~;).

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It seemed to work well for me, unless there is some side effect i didn`t notice. This would have to be done with all the missile chariots and elephants to, right? (Actually I did a small test with the elephants and they seemed to work correctly as it is.) I don`t have much experience in modding, so maybe there is others out there who have a little more insight who could look into it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by QwertyMIDX

I managed to get Horse Archers working right again, if you change the stat_pri_attr in the export_descr_unit file from no to thrown HA's work a lot better, unfortunatly they use the jav icon not the bow icon when attacking but I still think it's an improvement. If some other people would test it out and see what they think I'd appreciate it. They may work a little too well with just this change ~;).

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YES!! I think you've nailed it!! ~D ~D
I wish I've read your post some 7 hrs ago though. ~:) Anything else I've tried in that period of time (not to mention yesterday) didn't work, from angles to velocities to missile types etc. Never mind the javelin icon, it works as it used to. Yihaaa...

Thank you very much! ~:cheers:

ps.
Are elephants affected as well? I haven't looked at them, and right now I'd really prefer to play for a while instead of going back to testing.

So it works?
And I don't know about the elephants... I actaully can't test it, because I refuse to download the patch untill I know the Horse archers will work properly! ~;)

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Originally Posted by [B

Steppe Merc[/B] So it works?
And I don't know about the elephants... I actaully can't test it, because I refuse to download the patch untill I know the Horse archers will work properly! ~;)

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As far as I can tell, yes it works. I don't know whether there are any side effects other than the wrong icon. They still fire arrows, which should be affected by rain (at least it says so ~;) ) etc. as per projectile file. They just don't get interrupted or something, because I think the fire rate is also unaffected. And now I'm really going to do some playtime...

ps.
Steppe Merc, you don't have 1.2 installed? Could you briefly check whether some cavalries, such as barbarians, roundshields & longshields were "fast moving" prior to the 1.2. I seem to recall that they weren't, and now they are. Greek cav is also fast now, but I think it might have been before as well. Much appreciated if you go through the trouble. ~:)

Hmm... Where does it say it? In game, or the export descr unit text?
Because I can't find any fast moving attribute in that file...

You have to change all the horse archers and chariots, elephants were unaffected by this patch. I think they shoot significantly more often then they used to but we can make up for that by tonning down their stats a bit, when I playtest them they seem to turn units into pincushions with a bit too much ease. I didn't use Horse Archers much so I'm sure how different the performance is with this fix so you guys will have to tell me if I've muffed any up seriously.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sam Adams

mr frost, you are right, none of us have grown up using bows.

however, many of us have played with guns. extensively. 10s of thousands of rounds. And I know 1 thing... you cant shoot(accuratly) while moving, no matter how much skill you think you have.

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Wrong again Sam...
http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~khar.../a-usseal3.jpg