Rome TW is almost totally unhistoric!

I’m playing Rome Total War about two months and I noticed that game is almost totally unhistoric! The game is great – maybe the best I ever played, but… I have Latin in first two years in high school and I know a lot of about history. I will explain everything what I know that is false. What I don’t know, I will not write. Any suggestions are welcome! And I think Realism mod is good (I agree with something), but not good enough. I will explain what really was names of cities, provincies, units and starting positions of different faction in game in 270 BC. I excuse if I wrong translate something from Serbian and I will writte in Latin origin much as I can (too bad, there is no Latin keyboard in Windows XP). Lets start!

Romans

Senate and People of Rome
I have to admit that CA had make little mistakes (in compare to everything else) with Senate . Senate was in Republic no only counsel, but they conduct foreighn policy and solve problems in religion, finance and interior. This is ok when Senate says you to take that city, to start war with other nation, make alliance and their opinion about the others (in game - Senate policy). And administration is good – the state services were in hands of Magistratus and men work in Magistratus without to be payed (they worked for honour). Magistratus had two part: regular (consul, censor, preator, tribunus plebis, aediles and questor) and uncommon (dictator and magister equitum). Generally is ok (but there is no tribus plebis).
And starting province Latium is ok (Rome is Roma). No further objection.

Roman units
Historicly, Rome have five periods in their history: kingdom, republic (then was most powerfull), dictatorship (first and second Triumvirate), principate (emperor was first in Senate) and dominate (total rule in hands of one man – emperor). And in different time, they have differt types of units.

Military in Republic
Romans had four types of infantry and one of cavalry. Only Romans could serve in legions. Cities in Italy had allied status (they gave axilia troops) and areas out of Italy were provinces. Legion (3 600 men standard, but can go up to 6 000) had ten (decem) cohortes (10*360 men). Cohort had three manipuli (3*120 men – that was basic tactical unit) and manipul had two centuriae (2*60 men – become basic tactical unit after Marius reforms – manipuli were shuted down). Legion had help from 3 000 auxilia and 300 equites. Names of legions were Prima, Secunda, Tertia, Quartus etc. Until Marius, they had no stand alone legions – when Rome go in war they mobilised men and after war is finished, they disband them.
CA did great mistake  – those are not Legionary, Urban and Praetorian Cohorts – those are centuriae (no mean that is in empire).
Types of infantry (everybody know that) were: Veles, Hastatus, Princeps and Triarius (original Latin names).
Veles – they look like as they were, but everything else is wrong . They had only three short ranged javelines, not a lot of them how CA made. And they had sling (I know, no one believe, but that is true) . The poorest young Romans were veles.
Hastatus – they look as they were, but there are some huge mistakes – why hastatus have no centurion and signifer?  They had two javelines (pila Latin), but the first one was light and secound one was heavy. CA made both heavy . The younges Romans were hastatus.
Princeps – they look as they were, but they don’t have centurion (at least they have signifer). Same story about pila . Adult men were princeps and with hastatus were backbone of Republican legions.
Triarius – they look as they were. There are centurion and signifer. CA did job well .
Equites – they look as they were. They were light cavalry for scouting enemy when army marched, pursuing enemy and for hiting flanks. Equites had ten turma (30 men in each), but there is no prefect who commanded over turma (had same job like centurion) . Why?
Auxilia – they were slingers, archers and different types of cavarly. To accent – I don’t talk about auxilia in Rome TW how they look like. Those auxilia (in RTW) were in Empire (and after reform), not in Republic. One cohort of auxilia had between 500 to 1 000 men.
Huge mistakes of CA – Romans had no archers (romans archers didn’t exist)  – archers auxilia are ok . And why Romans have no slingers auxilia?  Auxilia cavalry how they looks like in game didn’t exist. They were like every other ordinary cavalry. Same for light auxilia. And who gave wardogs to Romans? Pigs?! I think somebody or somebodies in CA want to joke with total war fans (wardogs and pigs). I think CA created those units because Romans “allegedly” will be not strong enough. But Rome conquered until 104 BC (Marius reforms of army) Spain, Cartage, Greece, Macedon, south of Gaulia, Dalmatia and eastern Asia Minor.

Marius reforms
In the late of II century, Romans had great trouble with corruption and bribery. Famous Numidian king Jugurtha bribed optimati (aristocracy in Rome) and they had not attacked them (until Marius himself came and destroy Numidia). There is some evidence that he said when he were in Rome on negotiation: “Corrupted city which will be soon doom, only to find buyer.” (maybe is translation not so well ). Gai Marius 104 BC reformed military – every Roman had to serve in military 16 years. And it were stationary armies.
Those Early Legionares (not Cohort, as I wrote) are Marius reformed military. They look as they were , except pila  (as I wrote) and no centurion.
Legionares (not Cohort) look like they looked in Empire, except (again) pila and lack of centurion.
Praetorian Cohort – real name is not correct (Praetorian Legionares was). There were ten cohorts and was established by first emperor Octavian Augustus. They served in Rome and were emperor’s bodyguards. They have centurion, but why is gone signifer? And they don’t look as they were . They have two version of uniforms: military (looked exactly as ordinary legionares, but on helmet had “mohawk” (know what I mean)) and solemn (like in Gladiator movie with Russel Crowe, with long red tunica on back (like ordinary centurion), lighter armour and as “mohawk” were longer as military version).
Urban Cohort – they didn’t exist. Every ordinary legion stationed in city was urban. In empire (especially in late empire) Romans built border forts to protect borders (without succes) and from that forts became towns by time. So, there were no urban legionares. And auxilia were on borders, too.
Roman Cavalry – they look exactly as they were, but no prefect (again).
Legionary and Praetorian Cavalry didn’t exist – who came on such idea? Romans used auxilia cavalry (not like in the game how I wrote) and mercenary cavalry (Gaul’s, Numidian’s, Sarmation when they weren’t in war, from many Germans tribes etc.). Very simple – Romans were master of infantry not cavalry! And master of siege equipments!
Siege equipments – they look as they were, but CA gave wrong names. The real names were next:
onagers and heavy onagers = catapulta (there are no onagers in the game – they looked different) – they thrown projectiles in horizontal way and onager (onagrus in Latin) thrown rocks.
I think the other ones have wrong names but when I check, I’ll be posted.
Gladiators – they never went in war. Logical, they fought against Romans, because they were Roman slaves (famous rebellions in Sicily 138 – 132 BC, 104 – 101 BC, Pergamus 132 – 129 BC and Capua 74 – 71 BC (Spartacus)).
Arcanii – I have no comment.

Suggestions to CA
Marius reform have to come exactly in 104 BC and Romans have to produce from start in barracks hastatus, princeps and triarius. Every unit that is historicly wrong to throw out (as I wrote which). Lack of cavalry – simple (this is not my original idea, but who think out, have wright) – just make heavy mercanary cavalry (barbarian noble and long shield from start and gothic later in game) and make that they faster respawn. Problem is solved! Like was in real life.

Apeninian Peninsula and Roman Families
Three famous families – good. I cann’t think out better. Anyone know what Brutus mean on Latin? It means fool. And this is not surname – it is nickname. And Scipiones is nickname (I don’t know meaning), too. Romans had three names: name (Marcus), surname (Manlius) and nickname (Capitolinus). Why is not like that in the game? Don’t ask me.
The real problem in Italy are provinces (plus Sicily). There have to be more provinces in Italy. Latium (Senate) as I wrote is ok.
North Italy
Umbria (Arretium) is ok. Owned by Julii - ok.
Etruria is ok, but town Ariminium not. Historicly there was Florentia (or better Pisae, Tarqunium). Owners are Julii – ok.
Venetia (Patavium) is ok. And Owners are ok (Gauls were under Alps).
Liguria too, but for town historicly (Segesta) is better Genua.
Cisalpine Gaul (Mediolanum) are correct and owners (Gauls).
Sicily – real mess.
Syrakuse is ok and belongs to Greeks – historicly true (Archimedes killed when Romans came in the city – Don’t touch my circles – he said, if I have right)
Lilybaeum – I never heard and I don’t find in any historic maps such city. I know there were Segesta (there belong Segesta or Segestica – no Segestica in Ilyria – somebody make huge mistake). And belonged to Carthage – so, that’s ok.
Messana (original Messena – when Greeks colonised Sicily they gave the same name to town from their came (there was Messena in Pelopponesus)) – this city belonged to Carthage in 270 BC. No Romans in 270 BC in Sicily. After First Poenic war (264 – 241 BC) Romans took Sicily for themselves. And Sardinia and Corsica too.
Sardinia
Sardinia (Caralis) is ok, but why Corsica is not province. There (on Corsica) were town Atalia. Owned by Carthage is correct by both.
South Italy
Campania (Capua) – historicly true (but better is Neapolis). Belongs to Scipii – ok.
Brutinium (Croton) - historicly true. Owned by Brutii – ok.
Apulia is correct, but Tarentum is not. Cannae is in Apulia and Tarentum is in Calabria.
My opinion – we need Calabria (Tarentum, maybe is better Brindisium) owned by Brutii and Apulia with Cannae owned by Scipii.

Balkan Peninsula (Southestern Europe)

I will explain what real borders were, which nations lived where, who were they, military stutus… I live in Serbia and in our schools we learn a lot of about Roman rule in Balkan peninsula.

Macedon

Short History
First thing – today Macedons who live in FYR Macedonia have nothing and nothing with those ancient Macedons (they are Slavs). Who were ancient Macedon? Old books said they were Greeks – precisely – the rulers were Greeks, but people were “so called” barbarian and language was mix of Greek and barbarian. Until Philipos (father of Alexander the Great), Macedonia was unknown state.
CA made huge mistake  – Macedon coat of arms wasn’t letter alpha (in game) – it was she-goat! In money and flags were she-goats!

Military
Without his father (money, army, generals, administration), Alexander the Great would be unkown ruler of unknown Macedonia and who think that Philipos would not conquer the world – wrong think. Philipos established new type of unit (everybody know) – phalanx (Royal Pikemen in game) and he had powerfull cavalry (in game Companion). Phalanx was unbeatable until Paulus Emilianus’s (roman general) legions conquered Macedonia (148 BC)
and phalanx went in history (Macedon cavalry came too late – battle was over). Philipos conquered Greeks with bribery (just read Diodores Silcilianos) and Ilyria and Getae with army.
CA again made giant mistakes  - only Macedon (later as succesors Seleucid) have phalanx – Thrace didn’t have phalanx and Greek hoplite never fight in phalanx formation (Greeks used spears in differt way, not like in the game). The greatest stupidity in game – German spearmen warband have phalanx ability (who programed that) .

Dacians

CA was very and I repeat – was very unfair to Dacia and Dacians ! The names of provinces and towns are wrong, starting position too and they are only faction in the game who haven’t their own unique unit (at least one). Very, very sad …

Short History
Dacians were powerfull “nation” (nation didn’t exist then, but…) – better union of tribes (they spoke the same language, have the same culture, religion, custom etc. but the most of time were divided – local leaders ruled). Roman called Dacians Getae, too. Dacians had state from fall of Alexander Empire until 106 AD, when emperor Traianus conquered them. They owned huge territory – today Hungary, Romania, Czech republic, Slovakia, Southern Poland, Western Ukraine, Eastern Austria, Northern Serbia, Moldova and Slavonia (in Croatia) - when were great Dacia. Usual were in today Moldova, Romania and Eastern Hungary.
When Octavian Augustus became first emperor, Rome almost conquered known world at that time - except Parthian Empire, Dacia, German tribes (eastern of Rhein) and Bedouin tribes in Northern Africa. Augustus was first Roman who attacked Dacians. It was bloody war. Dacians king Boerebistas (in Latin) have huge army – 200 000 men (heavy infantry and cavalry). And Romans always when they couldn’t beat enemy, they paid to local leaders to kill their king, what they did (divide et impera). Dacia was divided in five states (after conspiracy) when Augustus legions came. But he lost, even then. And different German and Turkish tribes (Roxolanae, Sarmation, Iaziges, Bastarnae) always attacked Dacia. Emperors Vitelius and after them Damicianus paid tribute to Dacian king Decebalus (in Latin) that he don’t attack Romans – they couldn’t nothing to him. King Dacebalus was wrong – Romans always broke one’s word.
And then came emperor Traianus (I don’t know English version of name – maybe Trayan)… He built famous bridge on Danube river (near today Kostolac in Serbia and Turnu-Severin in Romania) and came in Dacia. From 100 to 104 it was the bloodiest war Rome ever fought (like famous ancient historian Strabon wrote). Traianus was lead army himself. He brought ten legions (4., 5., 6., 7., 10., 11., 13., 15., Secunda adjutrix and Minerva prima) and ten praetorian cohortes – total 74 000 men (both infantry and cavalry). Plus, he had allies who had at least 130 000 men – total number – he had over 200 000 soldiers. Allies were: Boeraes (German tribe lived around Visla river), Iaziges (German tribe lived around today Serbian cities Novi Sad and Varadin), Sarmatians, Roxolanaes (Sarmation tribe, lived around today Dnjepar river), Numidian cavalry and Germans (lived on Dacia borders). He destroyed Dacia 106 AD.
Roman historian Iulianus wrote that Traianus said when he won: “I destroyed Dacians, who were the bravest from all mortal, not by their great and too strong bodies, but for their virtue – because Sam’s teach them to believe that soul is immortal. They were never scared in assaults and disastres, because they are certain: soul don’t die, but goes in eternal life; so, they don’t care for today life.” One prisoner discovered Traianus where king Decebalus dig his treasury and sent treasury and Decebalus head to Rome.
In 259 AD Dacia was again free from Romans. At this time, different tribes scattered and pillaged Roman territories – Alanni, Sarmations, Gothi, Iaziges, Scythi, Quadi, Cheruli, Danckeri and other german-scythian tribes and ruled on today Balkan peninsula (even in Greece). It was end of Rome…
Everything what I wrote is important – you’ll see why.

Interesting Dacian name Banat
When I played with Dacia I noticed that my spies, diplomats and assasins have name Banat. Very interesting name. Why? Banat is province divided in two part: eastern is in Romania and western is in Serbia (in so called Vojvodina region). Banat (or banovina) was province in medieval Serbia ruled by ban (local ruler choosen by people). From where that name came in the game – no idea.

Military
I don’t know much about Dacian military, but I know something. They had heavy infantry. And that’s why I wrote short history of Dacia. Rome needed over 100 years to conquer Dacia. They were powerfull and rich, but in game they are average and poor. Bad …
Why in the game they don’t have unique units? Those Naked fanatics are stupid – somebody brilliant idea (in CA or Activision)?! Are they think serious about Naked fanatics or just jokes? (And so called “barbarians” wasn’t really bad. Why in every game barbarian look same stupid and cruel? What Romans did that is more terrible what “barbarians” done. Who don’t believe I will posted evidences (Roman historians wrote that - not me)).
At least Dacia have to have swordsmen and axemen – at least.

Provinces in Balkan Peninsula

Sparta (Laconia) is ok. Owners are Greeks – ok.
Corinth is ok, but Pelopponesus is wrong. Peloponesus is peninsula (Laconia, Ahaia, Argolidae, Arcadia, Elida and Mesenia). The proper name of province is Argolidae. And owner is wrong – no Macedon. It was Greek city (the name the Greek cities is exellant  - Greeks always were divided and even Persians attacked them – every city was a state (polis in Greek))
Athens (Attica) is ok. Owners are wrong (rebels). That city belonged to Greeks (they are proud on Athens)
Thermon (Aetolia) is ok. Owners are Greeks – ok.
Larissa (Thessalia) is ok and owner (Macedonia) is ok.
Thessalonica (Macedonia) is ok and owner (Macedonia), too.
Apollonia (Epirus) is ok. Owners are totaly wrong (rebels). It was in 270 BC state of famous king Pyrrhus.
Propontis (Byzantium) is ok. Owners are wrong (rebels). That’s belong to Thrace.
Thrace (Tylis) is ok and owners (Thrace), too.
Tribus Getae (Campus Getae) is good, but I need more investigations about proper names. This is not original names. Owner is wrong (Thrace). Real owners was Dacians as I wrote (for Romans Dacians = Getaes)
Dalmatia (Salona) is ok, but borders are wrong. Dalmatia was from Adritic sea coastal to today river Sava (borders between modern Croatia and Bosnia). And Panonia (Upper and Lower) was up them.
Panonia is good, but town is wrong (Aquincum). Aquincum exicted, but Sirmium was the most important city in Panonia and Ilyricum (later I will explain what was Ilyricum). Sirmium was forth capital when Empire was divided in four parts (plu Roma, Milano and Nicomedia). And few Roman emperors borned here.
Noricum is ok, but for town (Iuvavum) is better Virunum.
Tribus Iaziges (Campus Iaziges) is wrong. I wrote where Iaziges moved around. Need to investigate proper names of province and town (Romans never conuered that province).
Painoia is wrong (Bylazora existed, but not important town) – that was Ilyrian tribe not province. There were Mesia (Upper and Lower) and town Naisus (today Nis in Serbia, where Constantinus the Great was borned).
Dacia is ok, but town is not (Porrolissum). Need more investigation for proper town.
Ilyria (Segestica) is wrong. I wrote where was Segestica (in Sicily) and there were not Ilyria province. Explanation: Romans called modern Balkan peninsula Ilyricum and Ilyricum was divided in the provinces: Dalmatia, Upper Panonia, Lower Panonia, Upper Mesia, Lower Mesia, Macedonia, Thrace and Dacia (when was conquered). Those eight provinces Romans called Ilyricum. But, net of the roads is almost perfect  made in Balkan peninsula by CA. Well done!

P.S. Romans stationed ¼ of legiones in Ilyricum. Ilyrian legiones were the toughest legiones in whole Empire, especially when every free men, women and children became Roman citizens in 212 AD. Yes, they (ilyrian legionares) were stronger than Praetorian legionares. Ilyrians were brave and tough men. And Ilyria (with Sicily and Judea) was the most rebelious part of Empire.

For me, I wrote enough. I’ll be back with more materials and facts. Any and any suggestions are welcome. I will discuss about everything. If someone knows makers of Realism mode, PLEASE give them that. I will post that on totalwar.com, too. Maybe someone from Creative Assembly will read my post… 

Ummmmmmmm

You know this is a game, right ?

~D ~D ~D

Nice long post, and it's obvious you know a lot about the history of the region, but you need to understand one thing. This is not intended to be a completely accurate historical simulation. It's supposed to be a fun, playable game, with enough historical elements to entice the player into the time period. Some things are not accurate, yes, and they aren't intended to be. They were done that way for either game balance, or playability.

Thanks for the interesting info! And welcome to the ORG! ~:cheers:
I wonder if Byzantine_Prince will approve or will he get tossed for flaming again. ~D

P.S. I think that belongs to the Monastery.

Why Creative Assembly made Shogun Total War and Medieval Total War historicly accurate? ~:) They didi job exellent twice - so, why they failled this time ~:confused: ?

Nice Info.

I think that you need to look at R:TR V5.1, the made a very good job with the game.

some of the things you speak about are in their.

I think in all things considering, the game was very well made and accurate. The fact that you have any control over the game what so ever ultimately means the game will not be historically accurate. If the game was accurate it would essintially not be a game, but a movie. Since any free control you're allowed would alter future (our history) and change the historical accruacy of the game.

But none the less, good informational post.

Saying it is totally unhistoric doen't make much sense. It has anachronisms, and non-historic units, true. But there is some quite good historical rendering.

Cutting such a post up into bite size chunks would have been a good idea. Trying to discuss everything at once is not really useful. There are plenty of folks who would discuss topics, but not something that covers EVERYTHING in a single post. Just scanning through a bit I come across the following:

While you are obviously familiar with quite a bit of the history, you are unfamiliar with Lilybaeum? This was a pivotal city in the 1st Punic War. It was the only major Sicilian city Carthage still held until the end of the war when Hamilcar Barca was forced to surrender it as part of the peace agreement (since Carthage could not raise the siege.) It is now known as Marsala.

Borders and allegances weren't fixed and changed massively over the centuries. The game is trying to render them over centuries, so other than very specific locations (such as Carthage/Rome around the start of the 1st Punic War) quite a bit of license must be taken.

Greece was very much divided...much as it had always been. Scale is not sufficient to show many small states. And if it were, the number of factions would be huge.

Naked fanatics did exist, they weren't called "Naked Fanatics", but Gaesatae.

Unit scale must be approximated and other than Roman units and some Greek/Macedonian, little is known of command and control of most other factions. So the officer, signifer, and smaller tactical level divisions really irrelevant to the game anyway.

I look at it this way....

The Lord of the rings movie.

They changed aspects of the film (gave minor lines to other characters, added/changed minor events)... Why? to basically keep the momentum of the film smooth and to enhance some other parts. The writers and adapters (and director himself) agonised about doing this. They didnt want to re-write tolkein, they loved tolkein - thats why they made the film. But some changes were needed because - well they know filming and how films run - momentum and transition from scenes to scenes. Thats why films are different to documentaries.

Hence my point. Did CA get it wrong? hmmm not sure but I would guess that various things were changed to keep the game balanced and have momentum. Are they dissing the historic accuracy of the Roman times? nah they didnt make a documentary program - they made a game. And for others info MTW and STW were NOT accurate either - they were adapted for the game.

It happens all the time - for instance Hollywood made a film showing the Americans stealing the Enigma machine in WWII.
Doesnt that disrespect the french, British, dutch and belgese who lost their lives getting the enigma code in real life?

Glad to see you too Balkan Tourist my Bulgar friend. I do not aprove of some of this as you may have guessed.

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

Princeps – they look as they were, but they don’t have centurion (at least they have signifer). Same story about pila . Adult men were princeps and with hastatus were backbone of Republican legions.
Triarius – they look as they were. There are centurion and signifer. CA did job well .

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You can fix this dude. All you have to is type centurion in the export_descr_unit.txt. It's pretty simple. I'm pretty sure Europa Barbarorum will have that fixed for you so don't worry you are in good hands.

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Equites – they look as they were. They were light cavalry for scouting enemy when army marched, pursuing enemy and for hiting flanks. Equites had ten turma (30 men in each), but there is no prefect who commanded over turma (had same job like centurion) . Why?

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Havent' noticed this problem, but again if you have it you can easily fix it by just typing in the right words in the text files.

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Auxilia – they were slingers, archers and different types of cavarly. To accent – I don’t talk about auxilia in Rome TW how they look like. Those auxilia (in RTW) were in Empire (and after reform), not in Republic. One cohort of auxilia had between 500 to 1 000 men.
Huge mistakes of CA – Romans had no archers (romans archers didn’t exist)  – archers auxilia are ok . And why Romans have no slingers auxilia?  Auxilia cavalry how they looks like in game didn’t exist. They were like every other ordinary cavalry. Same for light auxilia. And who gave wardogs to Romans? Pigs?! I think somebody or somebodies in CA want to joke with total war fans (wardogs and pigs). I think CA created those units because Romans “allegedly” will be not strong enough. But Rome conquered until 104 BC (Marius reforms of army) Spain, Cartage, Greece, Macedon, south of Gaulia, Dalmatia and eastern Asia Minor.

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Some of these you can fix by yourself easily and some will be there once Europa Barbarorum in completed.

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Suggestions to CA
Marius reform have to come exactly in 104 BC and Romans have to produce from start in barracks hastatus, princeps and triarius. Every unit that is historicly wrong to throw out (as I wrote which). Lack of cavalry – simple (this is not my original idea, but who think out, have wright) – just make heavy mercanary cavalry (barbarian noble and long shield from start and gothic later in game) and make that they faster respawn. Problem is solved! Like was in real life.

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Again you can do this in a quite simple way or just wait for EB.

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Apeninian Peninsula and Roman Families
Three famous families – good. I cann’t think out better. Anyone know what Brutus mean on Latin? It means fool. And this is not surname – it is nickname. And Scipiones is nickname (I don’t know meaning), too.

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No there weren't any real family controlled areas in Italy. That's completely fictional. That's the most ahistorical thing in the whole game!

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The real problem in Italy are provinces (plus Sicily). There have to be more provinces in Italy. Latium (Senate) as I wrote is ok.

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Again I recommend you wait for EB or just get RTR 5.1

Ahhh and here we are in the good stuff:

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Balkan Peninsula (Southestern Europe)

Macedon

Short History
First thing – today Macedons who live in FYR Macedonia have nothing and nothing with those ancient Macedons (they are Slavs).

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Thank you.

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Who were ancient Macedon? Old books said they were Greeks – precisely – the rulers were Greeks, but people were “so called” barbarian and language was mix of Greek and barbarian. Until Philipos (father of Alexander the Great), Macedonia was unknown state.

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Ahhh no I disagree. Old books say they were barbarian but you and I know better don't we? Now we have to go back to where the tribes of ancient greece all descended from. For example the Doriae came from the region that was later called Macedonia. Did you know that? Macedonians all had greek names. Look at Alexander's generals names. Also if you actually visit the museum there you will only see greek writing. Sure it's a different dialect then some other greeks but it's still 100% greek. Also look at their architecture. Completely greek. I recommend you go there for vacation. It's nice.

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CA made huge mistake  – Macedon coat of arms wasn’t letter alpha (in game) – it was she-goat! In money and flags were she-goats!

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I agree and I have fixed it on my computer. You just have to download from here: TWcenter

Furthermore that's not an Alpha, that's a Lamdha and they probably just mixed it with the Spartan symbol which stood for Lakedaemon.

I'm too lazy to fix the rest, you made a pretty exhausting post.

Wait a second, the romans never used Archers? I thought they did... Must be mixing them up with someone.

I'm pretty sure they did, but im gonna say anything more because i really have no proof in my head right now. But hey if he doesn't want them I told him how to get rid of them.

KboT, didn't you read properly? He said there were no such things as 'roman archers' but there were archer auxilia.

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And who gave wardogs to Romans? Pigs?! I think somebody or somebodies in CA want to joke with total war fans

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No. They just want to attract all the uninformed idiots who usually wouldn't play a game like this. So they put in mythical units, like druids and gladiators and, yes, pigs.

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Rome needed over 100 years to conquer Dacia. They were powerfull and rich, but in game they are average and poor. Bad … Why in the game they don’t have unique units? Those Naked fanatics are stupid – somebody brilliant idea (in CA or Activision)?! Are they think serious about Naked fanatics or just jokes?

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Amen brother! I also knew about Dacian history, and was wondering why the heck they made such a powerful nation so weak and poor. In fact, why are all the barbarian factions weak and poor? Most of them were horrendously rich.

Good point, TonyJ. It looks as if someone had an extra dose of COMPLAINABOUTEVERYTHINGBADemol and not enough REMEMBERTHEGOODTHINGScillin.

I don't play Campaign anyway. too boring. STW and MTW take up my time now. ROme is only good for the battles.

Accidently hit the POST button.

You did make valuable points though, and a very informative post. This game is adapted to make it more 'playable'. Even if most barabarians were rich, wouldn't that kill the game and just eleminate the Romans if you were the Seleciuds or something.

It would make a change to see if the romans might get defeated by the gauls or someone. I mean, why couldn't they have made RTW so that it was like MTW, where in the end only a few fractions are left, and each time you play it's some different fractions? In RTW, the campaign AI seems to follow the same path time and time again: Carthage dies within 20-30 turns, Egypt refuses to die in any amount of turns, Armenia is used as a punchbag by it's neighbours and romans rule supreme. It's boring!!

Ah yes, my bad. I thought by no "Roman Archers" he meant the Romans had no Archers.

Carthage, Numidia, Scythia, Germania, Brutii, Scipii and Egypt are left at the end of a very very long game (year 75 BC).

I was playing the Selucids migrating to Ireland.

Numidia!? Usually they get obliterated by someone like Carthage or the Scipii, or they just get so into debt they fall apart.

Yea I was suprised.

Numidia had the 3 most south-west provinces. Carthage had the 3 next to that. From what I saw when I sent a ship along their coast, they were still skirmishing against each other. I got a diplomat to get map info off all the remaining Factions before I finished.

he duke stop telling the marian reforms have to come at 104 bc. the game is already over by then. for most people getting till 220 bc is already hard enough. and its a game not a timetravel machine. so what if itsn't totally according to history, it's fun playing isn't it.

About that macedonian flag thing your right. the letter alpha was from Sparta (correct me if wrong.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

Glad to see you too Balkan Tourist my Bulgar friend. I do not aprove of some of this as you may have guessed.



You can fix this dude. All you have to is type centurion in the export_descr_unit.txt. It's pretty simple. I'm pretty sure Europa Barbarorum will have that fixed for you so don't worry you are in good hands.




Havent' noticed this problem, but again if you have it you can easily fix it by just typing in the right words in the text files.



Some of these you can fix by yourself easily and some will be there once Europa Barbarorum in completed.



Again you can do this in a quite simple way or just wait for EB.



No there weren't any real family controlled areas in Italy. That's completely fictional. That's the most ahistorical thing in the whole game!



Again I recommend you wait for EB or just get RTR 5.1

Ahhh and here we are in the good stuff:


Thank you.


Ahhh no I disagree. Old books say they were barbarian but you and I know better don't we? Now we have to go back to where the tribes of ancient greece all descended from. For example the Doriae came from the region that was later called Macedonia. Did you know that? Macedonians all had greek names. Look at Alexander's generals names. Also if you actually visit the museum there you will only see greek writing. Sure it's a different dialect then some other greeks but it's still 100% greek. Also look at their architecture. Completely greek. I recommend you go there for vacation. It's nice.



I agree and I have fixed it on my computer. You just have to download from here: TWcenter

Furthermore that's not an Alpha, that's a Lamdha and they probably just mixed it with the Spartan symbol which stood for Lakedaemon.

I'm too lazy to fix the rest, you made a pretty exhausting post.

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I cant find it

Erm...emperor, i'm just looking at your siggy, and i think you might want to modify it. At the moment, it says 'the 1st General of the immortal 10.000'. Try and notice the mistake...

I think the game is far to compliacted as it is in some areas, forget perfect accuracy i just want a stable game that has decent battles devoid of harmful bugs and not so damn stupid in the AI department.

If you want to make it more realistic make a mod nobodys stopping you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikeus Caesar

Erm...emperor, i'm just looking at your siggy, and i think you might want to modify it. At the moment, it says 'the 1st General of the immortal 10.000'. Try and notice the mistake...

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I assume you're British/American? In continental Europe it is quite common to use 10.000 instead of 10,000. Seeing as Emperor Umeu 1 is from Rotterdam it makes sense that he would use that system.

Just be thankful he didn't write it in binary instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baiae

I assume you're British/American? In continental Europe it is quite common to use 10.000 instead of 10,000. Seeing as Emperor Umeu 1 is from Rotterdam it makes sense that he would use that system.

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Yup... In fact it seems the english speaking world has it upside down. ~D
1,2 is 1.2 and 1.300 is 1,300 for You. Much like the billion being 1000 millions for You while many of Us have it at a million millions. And don't get my started on tons, imperial, short and long tons and tonnes. It is all quite confusing when you try to estimate what the other guys is talking about. We think we can communicate so easily, but there are so many things that are similar but not the same at all. I'm certain that wars have started because of something like that. :dizzy2:

I don't care about war. ~;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Yup... In fact it seems the english speaking world has it upside down. ~D
1,2 is 1.2 and 1.300 is 1,300 for You. Much like the billion being 1000 millions for You while many of Us have it at a million millions. And don't get my started on tons, imperial, short and long tons and tonnes. It is all quite confusing when you try to estimate what the other guys is talking about. We think we can communicate so easily, but there are so many things that are similar but not the same at all. I'm certain that wars have started because of something like that. :dizzy2:

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he i know that it's 10,000 but everybody knows what i mean.
and for me a billion is this 1,000,000,000 the same as our miljard

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=40282

Morecities mod only changes the campaign map, but it sure does change how you have to play especially with my ironman rules. No training in newly conquered cities until the unrest is down to zero or it's natural unrest. And only skirmishers archers and your lowest class of infantry that you can train in any city with a culture penalty.

It plays out pretty good, financial ranking fluctuates drastically and it seems noone stays at or near bankruptcy for too long. Rome does not take on Sicily until Carthage takes the Greeks out of the equaton. Spain is hard to dominate, the barbarians are rich...... enough to pay 60,000 Denrai or is it 60.000 denari ~D to bribe away a city and keep bribing away.

Anyways the game is moddable and that's the # 1 factor

Heck IMO STW and MTW were just glorified board games.

Real accuracy would kill gameplay for most people.

Real accuracy would have elite troops costing a lot more Armour/weapons training while auxillaries would be cheap. So imagine waiting 10 turns to gather an army together. take back a few lost cities, and maybe gain an extra 1 or 2 and waiting to get enough money for another campaign.

And originally this game was going to have baggage trains in it imagine the micromanagement nightmared there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

Rome Total War is almost totally unhistoric!!111

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BREAKING NEWS!!: POPE IS CATHOLIC!

VATICAN OFFICIALS STUNNED!

Totally unhistoric?.... nah

Exceedingly unhistoric? ... sure

oke DUKEOFSERBIA you're making me mad. did you do any research before typing all kind of nonsense.

about the arcani
There was a understanding that was called 'disciplina arcani' that ment the discipline to keep secrets. so CA made up arcani, the shadowy part of the roman army.

about legionares
but don't start telling me that legionares didn't used the pilum. maybe hastatai and principes didn't but legionares did.
look here for pictures (scroll down a bit)
http://home.tiscali.be/andreas.pange...-Infantry.html

about the urban cohorts
and urban cohorts did exist they were called cohorte urbanae (police) along with cohorte vigilum (firefighters) they were installed by Augustus in Rome nad in Rome only.
go look for your self folks.

Legionary Cavalry existed but the name should be Equites Singulares, that were created by Augustus. after that Emperor Hadrian made up the Equites Singulares Agusti or the praetorian cavalry cause they were led by the praetorians. So again the name is wrong but the unit existed

Marian did only the legionares and the system and didn't made up the soldiers.

http://www.rhul.ac.uk/Educational-De..._Topic_7/6.htm

i'll look for more crap that you're telling us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Yup... In fact it seems the english speaking world has it upside down. ~D
1,2 is 1.2 and 1.300 is 1,300 for You. Much like the billion being 1000 millions for You while many of Us have it at a million millions. And don't get my started on tons, imperial, short and long tons and tonnes. It is all quite confusing when you try to estimate what the other guys is talking about. We think we can communicate so easily, but there are so many things that are similar but not the same at all. I'm certain that wars have started because of something like that. :dizzy2:

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Wow, a war averted by two simple sentences. Who said diplomacy was hard?

Quote:

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In continental Europe it is quite common to use 10.000 instead of 10,000.

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Silly europeans....getting me all confused...i'm going to go have some tea to calm me down....

ah is it too much for your tiny brain to handle

Duke of Serbia

A late chime in, but I can't resist a history thread...

"Phalanx was unbeatable until Paulus"

Better tell Philip, because he got his @ss handed to him twice by Onomarchus,
in the 3rd Sacred war. Antipater might also find that interesting news, seeing as he and his phalanx were shut up in Lamia, after being driven off the field by Athens.

“Lilybaeum – I never heard and I don’t find in any historic maps such city”

You’re not looking at enough maps; Lilybaeum was founded by Carthage as it’s bastion in Sicily, after Dionysius of Syracuse wiped Motya off the map in 398 BC. The siege of Lilybeaum and the related actions near Drepana were the final pivotal acts of the first Punic War.

However, good call on Alex’s debt to his father.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Yup... In fact it seems the english speaking world has it upside down. ~D
1,2 is 1.2 and 1.300 is 1,300 for You. Much like the billion being 1000 millions for You while many of Us have it at a million millions. And don't get my started on tons, imperial, short and long tons and tonnes. It is all quite confusing when you try to estimate what the other guys is talking about. We think we can communicate so easily, but there are so many things that are similar but not the same at all. I'm certain that wars have started because of something like that. :dizzy2:

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Actually, this "confusion" exists because of war. When Napoleon conquered much of continental Europe, the French made the people there all use the same system of measuring and notating it. That's also why we, for example, now use meters and you still use inches, feet and miles, which are actually rather archaic names and measures...

I could go on and talk about 'long' and 'short' hundreds too. Then we would even confuse the simple 100 figure numerial system we have. Nice! So we have a long hundred short tons. How much is that in kg? A little question for all those bright heads out there. ~D

Oh and Brutus, prior to our convertion to the metric system it was even worse in terms of confusion. A danish mile is 7.5 km, a swedish is about 10. Our inches and foots were nothing like the same, neither were our pounds. Damn there were even regional differences in a small country like Denmark. So I think Napoleon helped us a great deal out of confusion.

Hey don't ask me, I can't be bothered with feet inches ounds and ounces. Metric measurements are much better. I do know how many hundredweight there are in a ton though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

I could go on and talk about 'long' and 'short' hundreds too. Then we would even confuse the simple 100 figure numerial system we have. Nice! So we have a long hundred short tons. How much is that in kg? A little question for all those bright heads out there. ~D

Oh and Brutus, prior to our convertion to the metric system it was even worse in terms of confusion. A danish mile is 7.5 km, a swedish is about 10. Our inches and foots were nothing like the same, neither were our pounds. Damn there were even regional differences in a small country like Denmark. So I think Napoleon helped us a great deal out of confusion.

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He most certainly did. I know it used to be eve more confusing, but back then everybody at least agreed in not understanding what the other meant. ~D In those times the people of the Netherlands also used measures differing between regions, but there also wasn't a common currency or even a commonly used langauge everybody could understand.

However, because England (and it's former colonies) "missed out" on the French occupation, they still have to use their old metric systems. Is that just stubbornness? ~;) Anyway, I agree with you that Napoleo issued some pretty handy reforms...

dude, it's a game, don't like it. go read books

by the way, the /\ is not alpha, it's lamba. and it indeedly belongs to the greeks and not macedonians.

OK boys and girls - I'll be back ~:) when I read every post. I read some and some guys have right (like lamda letter, barbarian should be richer etc). I typped too fast and I haven't time to check everything and my historic books are loaned. But, again - I will answer.
And I'll be make Total History Mode as sooner as possible (I have to study, men :furious3: for exames in colledge)

go get better books, cause the one about the roman army totally sucked.

urban cohorts don't exist. hah

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brutus

However, because England (and it's former colonies) "missed out" on the French occupation, they still have to use their old metric systems. Is that just stubbornness? ~;) Anyway, I agree with you that Napoleo issued some pretty handy reforms...

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Actually metric measures are mostly used in Britain now. In fact it is now illegal to sell anything by imperial measures alone (apart from beer). Mosr people under the age of 30ish use almost exclusively.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baiae

Actually metric measures are mostly used in Britain now. In fact it is now illegal to sell anything by imperial measures alone (apart from beer). Mosr people under the age of 30ish use almost exclusively.

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Same for Canada (except fot the legality part), I know this for sure as i'm Canadian, Australia, New Zealand, and probably India are metric too.

China and other places in Asia also use 10,000 rather than 10.000.

Just to make sure our European friends don't think it is only Americans who use that system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baiae

Actually metric measures are mostly used in Britain now. In fact it is now illegal to sell anything by imperial measures alone (apart from beer). Mosr people under the age of 30ish use almost exclusively.

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All right! So now, please tell me how we can convince all you guys (British, Indians, Japanese, ...) to start driving on the RIGHT side of the road?! ~D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Baiae

Actually metric measures are mostly used in Britain now. In fact it is now illegal to sell anything by imperial measures alone (apart from beer). Mosr people under the age of 30ish use almost exclusively.

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All right, I didn't know that. Very well! ~;) And indeed, driving right would also be handy... Good luck with that ~:cheers:

-
Duke of Serbia,

You will hopefully enjoy Europa Barbarorum when it is out. :bow:
-

so when does it comes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

Apeninian Peninsula and Roman Families
Three famous families – good. I cann’t think out better. Anyone know what Brutus mean on Latin? It means fool. And this is not surname – it is nickname. And Scipiones is nickname (I don’t know meaning), too. Romans had three names: name (Marcus), surname (Manlius) and nickname (Capitolinus). Why is not like that in the game? Don’t ask me.

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Brutus means dumb - Not fool. And Brutus ain't a nickname but a part of.. can't remember the familiy name. Just like the Caesar's is a part of the Julius Caesar. Brutus was the man who made the Republic. His son, grandsons, grand-grand-grand sons is all named Brutus. Caesar was stabbed by Brutus the grand-grand-grand-grand-grand son to Brutus the founder of the Republic. And if it's a nickname i can't understand why this Brutus got it. He wasn't a dumb person. He was a great business man, and was one of the richest person in the late Republic time. I was even richer than Marcus Crassus and Gnaeus Pompenius Magnus. Estimated he had about - 19.000 talents of gold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by http://www.virtualology.com/rome/marcusjuniusbrutus.com/

The leader of the conspirators who assassinated the Roman dictator Gaius Julius Caesar in March 44 BC. The son of Marcus Junius Brutus, he acquired the the name of Quintus Caepio through adoption by his uncle, Quintus Servilius Caepio

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he got it because he played dumb, in the time of the kings the last king killed everybody that could be a threat. so brutus played like he's dumb and escaped the murderous temper of the king. just like Claudius did with Nero or Caligula can't remember.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Emperor Umeu 1

he got it because he played dumb, in the time of the kings the last king killed everybody that could be a threat. so brutus played like he's dumb and escaped the murderous temper of the king. just like Claudius did with Nero or Caligula can't remember.

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Not him... The Brutus that made the last stab at Caesar.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HarunTaiwan

China and other places in Asia also use 10,000 rather than 10.000.

Just to make sure our European friends don't think it is only Americans who use that system.

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Makes sense... China had the most contact to the UK, so it only seems fitting that they would use the same system so as not to become confused with each other. And since the brits were too arrogant to learn any chinese system (ok they had won the 'right' after they won the Opium War) it had to be the other way round.
Japan and the US has had fairly close contacts since that Peary guy forced open the country, and Japan modeled a lot on the British Empire. So it wouldn't surprise me they have the 10,000.
But if you take a look at Indonesia or Macao (I guess that has changed now though) they would use the 10.000.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

Not him... The Brutus that made the last stab at Caesar.

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as you said because he was family of the brutus i was talking about. (the one of the Republic) that's the reason he stabbed ceasar cause he didn't want the republic gone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Emperor Umeu 1

as you said because he was family of the brutus i was talking about. (the one of the Republic) that's the reason he stabbed ceasar cause he didn't want the republic gone.

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Correct - Brutus the founder got his cognonom from his actions (Playing dumb so the king didn't thought that he was a threat). Brutus (THA backstabber) got it from him just like Caesar even know his cognonom was matching his look. (Caesar means thick & golden hair).

Ok boys - I have some troubles with scannings some pictures, but when I scann I will post to prove (Thursday, I hope) what I wrote and I will give the names of historians and their books. It is just begginig Emperor Umeu 1 .
:duel:

Pozdrav vojvodi iz Beograda!


I agree with some points, but still think that some things need to stay unrealistic to keep game balance.
Like positions of roman families, some extra unique unit to barbs to give extra flavor, or modular date for Marius reforms (sometimes plyers get empire size rome much earlier then in history, so why should they wait for reforms).

Pozdrav igracu iz Beograda. Ej, moras biti na mojoj strani. Cekaj kad slike objavim - sesce svi na dupe. Im par dobrih knjiga, ako hoces preporucicu ti.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

Ok boys - I have some troubles with scannings some pictures, but when I scann I will post to prove (Thursday, I hope) what I wrote and I will give the names of historians and their books. It is just begginig Emperor Umeu 1 .
:duel:

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:duel: haha i'll take your challenge and you'll bite the dusk afterwards. just look at the sites i gave you and you'll see.

btw i can't understand Serbian lanquage ~:cool:

Try here. I think we can soothe your wounded spirit.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70

DukeofSerbia - if you want historical game - send it all to Paradox ;-). They made GREAT historic games from medieval to WW2 so acient world is next in order ;)
(Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis 1,2, Victoria Empire under the Sun, Hearts of Iron 1,2)

RTW is for FUN - and there are many more things that have to be improved than just being historic... BTW they should make much more patches - like Paradox do.

crusader kings was the best.

I'm playing Europa Univesalis 2. And I'm moding the game. I know little Dutch ~:) . This is real Serbian - Поздрав свима из Србије! ~:cheers:

i dont know...
who made more mistakes CA or duke of serbia
the guy has a point , the game is unhistoric
but he did not find lilybaeum in any book...
i wonder whos books is it
gladiators actually fought under roman command (for example under otho in ad 70)
CA could do more to balance between game play and historical accuracy
~:handball:

Thank you Caesar44! ~:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

Thank you Caesar44! ~:)

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i agree with some things he said, but he also said that legionares didn't used pilum, urban cohorts and preatorian cavalry didn't exist. that's what i said isn't true ofcourse, i also think this game isn't that historic but so what, it's a game.

so
doserbia is right about his argument but his examples are little problematic
~:cheers:

yes, he is right with most things but not woth the roman army weapons and kind of soldiers.

Well only about Rome which is the subject I know best , I can say that altough some of your points are right , many others are definetly wrong , like the naming of praetorians , the unhexhistence of Praetorian and Urban cohorts , sorry but you mane various errors on the roman part , I can't list all of them , just some like the Praetorian cavalry , that did Exhist , as well as the Urban cohort that was a special cohort less prestigious than the Praetorian but numbered after them , there where only three disposition all along the empire , in Rome , in Carthage and if I well remember at Lion .... then some other incorrections here and there, I suggest you check better your fonts on the Roman subject....

Ok - I put new post and there are some explanations ~:) .