Byznatine Prince - Troll or Not to Troll?

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A) I am an arrogant bastard.

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It's fun for me. I usually disagree with most people. I think of myself more developed metally (sic) then most people. Sexier too.

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A. Saturnus, Pindar and Rosacrux Redux are all very intelligent yet very polite so I do not see why intelligence should be an excuse for pettiness and ill manners. It should in fact lessen the excuse of not knowing better and being truly intelligent someone should be able to self-nuture themselves to a higher level despite their external environment or their genetic nature.

If you are afraid of forming social relationships and are instead doing pre-emptive strikes so you do not get hurt that is an understandable and normal state of a teenager.

However if in your arrogance you think that superiority allows one to be brutal to those you perceive as lesser beings then I can see no difference between your path and the majority of others that have predated you. True intelligence is not just a gift to an individual but to society. Those with the greatest intelligence should be a shining light for humanity not a troll.

If you are as smart as you say you are. Try being polite to others and having quotes and references for your statements.

Otherwise if you wish to fence your wit be prepared :duel:

Hmm ... while what you say has value Papewaio, do you really think this approach will be received well? Perhaps it might have sparked some introspection if it had been presented privately, but having patronized Prince publicly ... I don't think it will have the effect you want.

I have seen more individuals directly criticize Byz over the last couple of months than any other patron in the time that I've been here. I, too, think Prince could stand to be quite a bit more considerate. I just ignore him when he's behaving in a manner that I find offensive (unless he's violating the rules). Frankly, I find his obnoxiousness to be so cliche and stereotypical of teens his age that it doesn't bother me nearly as much as some of the high-browed adults here who are at least as snide or condescending as Prince is--they're just better at masking their insults with words or rhetoric, or by being roundabout and indirect in their attacks.

I don't think it bodes well for the Org to have people publicly criticizing other patrons--no matter how much they may deserve it. I have read some things in this forum that were extremely critical of Prince, to the point of being personally demeaning (even if his behavior warrants sanction, I don't think it's right for anyone to be harangued publicly).

Before anyone starts pointing their fingers at me and screaming "hypocrite," note that in the recent past I have deiberately and with intent publicly criticized/verbally attacked a staff member that I felt had, one time too many for me, openly criticized other patrons in a manner which I felt was improper. Note my warning level. We all have our moments, and I'm certainly no exception.

I suggest that people use the Ignore function if consistently annoyed by a patron. I suggest that public criticisms and complaints about a patron to staff be focused on specific violations of Org rules, or, sent to staff via PM to avoid public defamation.

And, I suggest that all staff make a concerted effort to set a good example at all times. Walk the talk.

I was clearly being sarcastic when I made those comments. The line "sexier too" should have been a dead give away.

Sometimes I do flame others for not agreeing with me though, usually when their opinions are so far out. I don't do that anymore though. Also if you go to that same thread you'll notice that I apologized to BKS for patronizing him. It wasn't anything that bad compared to what i have said before to other patrons, so I wouldn't go as far as to call it a flame even.

Just a suggestion: use smilies or text to indicate sarcasm, intended humor, etc. While our intent seems obvious to us--the posters--it is not so obvious to readers unless there is some visual or text indication. This often leads to easily avoidable misunderstandings.

As far as quotes and references go, I disagree with the majority here. Many book "scholars" like these because it gives them something upon which to base a counterattack in an attempt to discredit an opinion. Express your opinion. It has always been my view that one does not need to attach the opinions of others ("experts," etc.) in order to have a valid point. There are those that will automatically dismiss a position if it is not supported with quotes and references--particularly if they don't undertand or agree with the point at first read. I submit they have spent too much time playing the Uni game. What I do is provide supporting references if someone contests a particular point that I've made. This helps to avoid the nit-picking counterattacks that will most often occur if you provide quotes and references up front. There are many here who circle like ravenous vultures, divebombing on quotes and references with combative delight ... .

Ouch, you typed his name wrong.

Sorry, couldn't stop it. ~D It's a teenage nature.

Wait! I apologize! Don't issue my death sentence! Don't call me infidel! No, not the Guantanamo! I hate mosquitoes! :help:

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Ouch, you typed his name wrong.

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What?!?! I'm furious! :furious3:

Not troll
but he can be annoying sometimes
But can't we all?

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Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin

Hmm ... while what you say has value Papewaio, do you really think this approach will be received well? Perhaps it might have sparked some introspection if it had been presented privately, but having patronized Prince publicly ... I don't think it will have the effect you want.

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Erm, what was patronizing?

Most of Pape's post, imo ... you do not see it as such?

From Dictionary.com (I'm lazy):

pa·tron·ize ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ptr-nz, ptr-)
tr.v. pa·tron·ized, pa·tron·iz·ing, pa·tron·iz·es
1. To act as a patron to; support or sponsor.
2. To go to as a customer, especially on a regular basis.
3. To treat in a condescending manner.

I was thinking #3. Now, as I said, I think Papewaio has very valid points. It was the manner in which the points were delivered (publicly, and the choice of words used) that seem patronizing to me.

Why not call out his behavior for the community to see? Are we not all affected by his comments? If the young man has the stones to post thread after thread in the Watchtower begging to get his privelidges back in the different forums throughout the community, he should be man enough to handle a little public ridicule addressing his public displays that are not positive to the harmony of this community. Spare the rod, spoil the CHILD.

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Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin

Most of Pape's post, imo ... you do not see it as such?

From Dictionary.com (I'm lazy):

pa·tron·ize ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ptr-nz, ptr-)
tr.v. pa·tron·ized, pa·tron·iz·ing, pa·tron·iz·es
1. To act as a patron to; support or sponsor.
2. To go to as a customer, especially on a regular basis.
3. To treat in a condescending manner.

I was thinking #3. Now, as I said, I think Papewaio has very valid points. It was the manner in which the points were delivered (publicly, and the choice of words used) that seem patronizing to me.

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I usually figured things like cutting and pasting word definitions was a little condescending.
:winkg:
I don't think it's condescending at all. I haven't read the original thread, but since it apparently involved three other members I think it makes more sense to post it here than PMing everyone involved.

I read it again and don't see the patronising part. Perhaps because it is worded as if it is being spoken directly to just BP and not the rest of the people on the watchtower?

Papewaio was wrong to start this thread, seeing as my behaviour is way better then it was a little while ago. I guess he did read the post about me being sarcastic though so I forgive him by default.

TogakureOjonin: Don't worry I don't feel he patronized me. I do however feel that people (in real life even) judge us teenagers all the same, in a very stereotypical way. Even when Im right and they are wrong(100% sure the are wrong).

Ok so I am not the nicest person in teh world but I don't want to be. I'de rather be myself then conform to some norm that exists. I feel strongly about pretty much everything so of course people are gonna be pissed off at me. Sometimes people agree with me wholeheartidly however. I like to call them my best friends ~:) .

Papewaio has just as much of a right to start this thread as you have to act rude and insulting, get warned, get banned, then post in the Watch Tower whining about your status. Try to learn from your experiences. BTW, you are not acting in a "very stereotypical way" of any teen on these forums. The teens on these forums generally act with maturity and decency, far from the bahaviour that you have exibited over the past few months you've trolled these threads.

Not troll.

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Not Troll... Orc maybe. ~:joker:
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Originally Posted by Proletariat

I usually figured things like cutting and pasting word definitions was a little condescending.
:winkg:
I don't think it's condescending at all. I haven't read the original thread, but since it apparently involved three other members I think it makes more sense to post it here than PMing everyone involved.

I read it again and don't see the patronising part. Perhaps because it is worded as if it is being spoken directly to just BP and not the rest of the people on the watchtower?

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It wasn't my intent to patronize you, Proletariat. It seemed you didn't take with my use of the term "patronizing," so I grabbed a definition to make clear what I meant. That's all.

I'm not "taking sides" people. I just had a point to make and I did my best to make it. If you don't agree, fine and dandy. I just don't see ganging up on a kid publicly as a good solution to the problem. Do any of you really think it will modify behavior for the better? When I was a teen, such behavior on the part of adults and holier-than-thous just fed my fire so-to-speak, and I devised even more clever ways to be maximally irritating, within the "rules."

Enough on this for me folks. My point has been stated.

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Originally Posted by TogakureOjonin

It wasn't my intent to patronize you, Proletariat. It seemed you didn't take with my use of the term "patronizing," so I grabbed a definition to make clear what I meant. That's all.

I'm not "taking sides" people. I just had a point to make and I did my best to make it. If you don't agree, fine and dandy. I just don't see ganging up on a kid publicly as a good solution to the problem. Do any of you really think it will modify behavior for the better? When I was a teen, such behavior on the part of adults and holier-than-thous just fed my fire so-to-speak, and I devised even more clever ways to be maximally irritating, within the "rules."

Enough on this for me folks. My point has been stated.

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I didn't think you were patronising, I just thought it was funny. My only point to that is it isn't anyone here's job to modify his behavior. IMHO, it's simply up to the mods if his comments are breaking the rules or not and what warning level he should get if he has. Anyway, I guess it's enough for me on this too.

Hmmm, to troll or not to troll? That is the question.

Hmm, since Im such a non-conformist I choose neither. HA! what do you confomists think of that? :duel:

That you're as much a conformist as anyone else, you rely on the conformists so you know what to do ~;)

i really love it when people use the excuse of conformity to justify their actions.
its like emos who think they are individuals

What's an emo? :embarassed:

Guys, can we stop bothering TosaInu with our little grudges? This is the Watchtower, not your 2005 Trolling Contest. Everything in this thread could have been dealt with by PM.

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Originally Posted by dessa14

i really love it when people use the excuse of conformity to justify their actions.
its like emos who think they are individuals

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Great, emo bashing ~:rolleyes:

i think there are two kinda contradictory but both valid ideas being represented in this thread. one is that public censure of a patron may not have the intended effect and may backfire and cause resentment towards the moderaters for public humiliation. another point is that some would like to see more transparancy in the machinery of org disciplinary action. and if someone mibehaves in public, then they should be censured in public. so that if they misbehave, or if a patron is eventually banned for life, as has happened in the past, people can look at the series of steps that lead to it and see it, as opposed to it looking like an arbitrary and power trip fueled decision by the moderators.

aren't you conforming with the non-conformists by not conforming ?

never understood the whole emo bashing thing, isn't it based on music choice or something ? or just liking the most popular music, i reserve the right to bash britneys legion of 6yr old fans though ;)

byz could word his posts better, use of smilies would help as well, preview your posts before you read them and try to see if it would be insulting, not that im perfect in that respect.

Alright, whats an emo? ~:confused:

Making fun of Soly, BKS and Star Wars crosses my lines... :furious3:

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Alright, whats an emo? ~:confused:

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I think it's a scary form of music of a bunch of whiny people who just complain and think that they are cool... not sure, as I would never go near any sort of metally punky music.

Emo is emotional rock and people usually bash it to death.

Ok non-confomists are not confomists just because they join a category of non-confomism. Non-confomists are just being themselves so they are all different therefore not conforming to what society tells them they should be like. Are we clear?

I didn't read much into those comments when I saw them in the thread and thought they were sarcastic, and left them at that.

its certainly not worse than anything I have come to expect in the Tavern sometimes. (though most people there tend to fix ~D or ~;) at the end of such statements as an attempt to lighten them)

Not Troll.

Hey I just realized my warning levels down to 1.
Yay.
LOL lets not turn this into an Emo thread.
As long as he doesn't curse off or ruin the babe thread he's ok with me.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

Emo is emotional rock and people usually bash it to death.

Ok non-confomists are not confomists just because they join a category of non-confomism. Non-confomists are just being themselves so they are all different therefore not conforming to what society tells them they should be like. Are we clear?

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I disagree. Anybody who spends any time with people from a particular societal subculture will be able to see that they are just as conformist as anyone-just to a different set of ideals. To use the example here, most Emo kids I know are only Emo because everyone else is doing it, and they think it's the 'in' thing to do. I dislike people who do things to be 'individual' just as much as I dislike people to do it to conform. I respect people who are themselves.

nokhor speaks words of wisdom. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Big King Sanctaphrax

I disagree. Anybody who spends any time with people from a particular societal subculture will be able to see that they are just as conformist as anyone-just to a different set of ideals. To use the example here, most Emo kids I know are only Emo because everyone else is doing it, and they think it's the 'in' thing to do. I dislike people who do things to be 'individual' just as much as I dislike people to do it to conform. I respect people who are themselves.

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That's what I strive to be. I don't go for being anyone but me, and that has gotten me into trouble sometimes. I think it's worth it though.

I admit if I see something I like do hold on to it and incorporate it into my image. But I don't do it because someone else did, I only do it because i naturally like it.

I don't think you really disagree with me, you just didn't understand what I was saying.

Possibly, The part of your post I disagreed with was-

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Ok non-confomists are not confomists just because they join a category of non-confomism.

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I was just lazy, so I quoted the whole post.

Well an imaginery category not a literal one. This is my opinion on the subject so it's not gonna coinside with everyone. I donsider myself a non-conformist. That, to me means that I don't follow trends and rely on my own good tastes to determine my physical image.

To be sure, the .org seems to me too slow to react to some of the patron's actions. I sugest we just have people warned once, and then banned. And that is all.


Not that I would have anything against the patron for whom this thread is meant; the single post with which I agree is nokhor's, and this is maybe because he doesn't offer any solution. I believe Papewaio was wrong to start the thread; you don't complain about a Shih Tzu in public, it's ridiculous, you put him in a bag of toys and forget about him when you leave.

Ok, to make this thread useful (for me) I demand that everyone answer to my questions ~D :

What is emo?
Who/What is conformist?

Answer me or suffer the consequences. :duel:

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Originally Posted by Big King Sanctaphrax

I disagree. Anybody who spends any time with people from a particular societal subculture will be able to see that they are just as conformist as anyone-just to a different set of ideals. To use the example here, most Emo kids I know are only Emo because everyone else is doing it, and they think it's the 'in' thing to do. I dislike people who do things to be 'individual' just as much as I dislike people to do it to conform. I respect people who are themselves.

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Well put.

"I'm a non-conformist, just like all my friends!"
:singer: :drummer: :guitarist:

(Sorry, couldn't help myself. I'll leave.)

All mods are patrons outside their respective forums.

So I am posting here as a patron. Moderators are patrons too, we are not some sort of maids here to sweep up the droppings are demigods to demand you to obey.

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pa·tron·ize ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ptr-nz, ptr-)
tr.v. pa·tron·ized, pa·tron·iz·ing, pa·tron·iz·es
1. To act as a patron to; support or sponsor.
2. To go to as a customer, especially on a regular basis.
3. To treat in a condescending manner.

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All of the above are correct.

1. I am offering a public support to amending BPs ways. I believe in doing it in public because this is a public forum, I want to rectify as many like minded posters as possible and to understand if the person realises the general nature of his posts and effects on others.

2. I am a customer her and partronise the board whenever possible.

3. Still fighting left handed...

The Org used to be far more polite in the whole while retaining a fair amount fo wit, rhetoric and debating. I do not think one needs to have a Harvard reference scheme for everything... just if you make a statement be prepared to defend it with wit, facts or intelligence not obnoxious or mean in spirit.

I am the last person to say no to sarcasm. Just if you use it, be prepared to play the game and don't complain if others did their wit in irony and whip it back at oneself.

Game on.

His anti-americanism is disgusting to me. Other than that hes just blunt.. some people are, some people arent. Its more unusual on a forum because blunt people usually arent big on written debates.

But who am i to talk, ive had a warn level for God knows how long.. :dizzy2:

I don't hate America, I hate Republicans. They twist everything you say to make you sound anti-american. Geezuz they even make some Democrats out to be bo anti-american. It's not suprise you think lile that Panzer.

I've actually been to America and I liked my stay a lot. Massethussetts is a really nice state. Don't tell me I'm anto american though. I actually like America itself. I can't stand some Americans though i admit.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

I can't stand some Americans though i admit.

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You definitely didn't like any of those in the twin towers sonce you said they deserved what they got. Troll.

GAH! this is shy I can't stand republicans. As I just said, they like to twist words and make you out to being anti-american. Nice try Dave. No one cares about your opinion though.

deleted

I once watched this interview Bill O'Reilly made with a guy whos father died in the towers and guess what? HE actually managed to turn the conversation and made the poor guy look like anti-american terrorist loving scumbag. Why? Just because he was against the war. Yeah I know what you conservatives like to do exactly. I'm not falling for it and neither is anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

I once watched this interview Bill O'Reilly made with a guy whos father died in the towers and guess what? HE actually managed to turn the conversation and made the poor guy look like anti-american terrorist loving scumbag. Why? Just because he was against the war. Yeah I know what you conservatives like to do exactly. I'm not falling for it and neither is anyone else.

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In making statements like this - you are just as guilty of doing what you accused others of. Do you know what I am up to as a conservative - I doubt it very seriously. Just like I doubt very seriousily that you understand or even know what the majority of Republicans or even us non-party conservatives on this board are up to. Care to compare the battle scars of life with some of the members of this board? You might find that many here come from diverse backgrounds that do not fit neatly into your seemly distrust of conservatives or for that matter other groups. However certain of your statements show an extreme lack in maintaining the standards established in the forum rules.

You want to be blunt with people - all fine and well - however you must accept the consequences of your actions.

Its amazing that you seem to think conservatives are out to twist your words and change the meaning of of them - when there are many members who do just that in the tavern from both politicial spectrums - or more realistically all politicial spectrums be it left, moderate, or right. Care to guess how many times my words have been mis-interpet, mis-read, and twisted to mean something else in this forum? Care to guess how many times I have done the exact same thing? Its all in the sprite of the debate. Do we sometimes take it too far - sure, and those who often do so take their punishment and sanction and continue on.

Sometimes we protest the actions of the moderators because we precieve a favoritism or baised opinion on the moderators - but rarely do other patrons directly critize other members directly to the moderators in public - its often done through PMs - but not always. Other then one other individual, your actions have resulted in more discussion about a single person.

You might want to consider those who have raised this issue - especially in this particlur thread - because they are far from the defination of conservative - several in fact would be considered politicial moderators or even completely politicial neutral. However they raise a point that they consider valid and you continue to demonstrate that their concern has some validity.

I personally don't believe in banning anyone from the boards that can maintain a sliver of common decency in their posting without making every post a personal attack on the person that they disagree with. However to make personal attacks on those who you disagree with - is not acceptable behavior.

BP is back at level 4. Can't say that I am surprised. ~;) It is disappointing to me that he is still here at all. It is one thing to be tolerant of differing views. It is quite another to put up with someone who seems bent on detracting from the community rather than adding to it or at least making a reasonable effort to get along.

Independent thought is a good thing, and sometimes it leads one to being non-conformist (I can vouch for that.) But there is a point at which independent thought can drift off into sociopathic fantasyland. In my opinion, that threshhold was crossed some time ago with BP.

BP is probably just happy with all the attention, good or bad. Trolls are like that.

Gah! Ok fine. I guess I shouldn't just assume everyone agrees with me everywhere.

I don't care anymore. Say whatever. I'm tired.

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

All mods are patrons outside their respective forums.

So I am posting here as a patron. Moderators are patrons too, we are not some sort of maids here to sweep up the droppings are demigods to demand you to obey.

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Oh please, don't fall back on this disingenuous fiction that staff members are just ordinary members outside their own forum. Members of staff, where they like it or not, are more senior patrons of this forum wherever they are, even if they don't have their moderator powers. And it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise. Can you honestly say that if an ordinary patron had accused another patron of being a troll, or of trolling (even if true), that there would be no repercussions? The FAQ clearly states that "Any kind of "flaming", slurs or insults adressed to an individual or a group is extremely inappropriate. Please respect etiquette at all times." As a member of this board, you should know this. As a staff member, you should know better.

But as you are just a patron of this forum, one that has clearly broken one of the major rules around this place, I expect TosuInu will take the appropriate action.

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Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

I don't hate America, I hate Republicans. They twist everything you say to make you sound anti-american. Geezuz they even make some Democrats out to be bo anti-american. It's not suprise you think lile that Panzer.

I've actually been to America and I liked my stay a lot. Massethussetts is a really nice state. Don't tell me I'm anto american though. I actually like America itself. I can't stand some Americans though i admit.

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Oh Thanks, offend me, one of the people trying to keep you from being banned, in a thread about you, not only once but twice.

What? No babe, I love republicans. They are all so smart. It's cool.

You might want to stop with the sarcasm, you'll do yourself an injury.

I'm done arguing,
Byzantine, you have managed to change my opinion by your posts in this thread.
Troll.
Ban him, suspend him, just do somthing.
Thank You.
-Capo

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Originally Posted by Morat

Oh please, don't fall back on this disingenuous fiction that staff members are just ordinary members outside their own forum. Members of staff, where they like it or not, are more senior patrons of this forum wherever they are, even if they don't have their moderator powers. And it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise. Can you honestly say that if an ordinary patron had accused another patron of being a troll, or of trolling (even if true), that there would be no repercussions? The FAQ clearly states that "Any kind of "flaming", slurs or insults adressed to an individual or a group is extremely inappropriate. Please respect etiquette at all times." As a member of this board, you should know this. As a staff member, you should know better.

But as you are just a patron of this forum, one that has clearly broken one of the major rules around this place, I expect TosuInu will take the appropriate action.

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Morat, you are 100% wrong on this. I was an AM, but chose to drop the title so that I could speak my mind without having folks like yourself misunderstand where any statement I made was coming from. (Nobody at the .org made a request or suggestion that I do so, it was purely my own decision.) Some of you think that when you see mod in the name it means that it is some sort of official response. It is not. When a mod is acting as a mod, they say so. The only thing the .org has done wrong is to allow BP further posting priviliges.

BP has been the one who screwed this up, not the .org. The solution is simple, remove the problem. Obviously his presence is causing a lot of strain for the moderatators. I've seen at least half a dozen clash with him directly so far. So Morat, should we get rid of all the mods, or BP? This seems rather simple to me...

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Red Harvest, you're speaking your emotions mate. (In my eye you are one of the most honourable patrons at this place :bow: but at the same time one of those who, at times, drop all mind and ration and behave purely emotionally. I may be wrong but that's my observation.) Not that you're ill intentioned (Lo! Never!) but it's BP's standing against your views and beliefs that makes you burst out, not that he's an overall annoying and unrespecting person. (No offense BP but yes, you are.) Otherwise, you would react similar towards quite a few other patrons as well.

I believe he's a somewhat tougher version of what Capo was a few months ago. Capo seems to have improved remarkably; BP isn't. They are -with some anachronisme- identicals on the opposite margins of the political scala.

As for getting rid of some people, I shall not advocate it for any but, BP should not be the only one. I have five names in my ignore list, am happy not to see any post of theirs and would not mourn the least if they disappeared altogether not only from this forum but from being at all. It wasn't for nothing that they made it to my list; they earned it by calling out deathwishes for and monging hatred against an entire people of a country in the backroom.

I would suggest anyone so sick of BP to put him in their ignore list and be done with that. I don't find him "worthy of ignoring" for now. ~;)
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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Morat, you are 100% wrong on this. I was an AM, but chose to drop the title so that I could speak my mind without having folks like yourself misunderstand where any statement I made was coming from. (Nobody at the .org made a request or suggestion that I do so, it was purely my own decision.) Some of you think that when you see mod in the name it means that it is some sort of official response. It is not. When a mod is acting as a mod, they say so. The only thing the .org has done wrong is to allow BP further posting priviliges.

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You misunderstand me. I was not saying that a staff member had come in here and said something unpopular, and that I had misconstrued this as the official position of the Org. I'm saying that he has obviously broken the rules that govern this forum, unless either I'm completely misunderstanding them or "troll" is consider an affectionate term in these parts. To me it is clearly an insult, an insult that was clearly directed at an individual.

As a separate point, a staff member usually has wide ranging powers in their own forums (which could be used against a patron he dislikes, discouraging that patron to post there), will have access to the staff forums (if there are any), relationships with all staff members (and as a result the ability to influence decisions of the staff), and usually the support of many members of the forum. In other words a staff member is far more than any ordinary patron even if they have no powers in the forum. As such, I find it dishonourable for one to claim otherwise.

And this is a major reason why staff members must always play by the rules, as it weakens their moral authority if they also break the rules, and leads to a souring of relations between staff and patrons.

If as you say, you chose to resign from the staff because people assumed you spoke on their behalf, and you didn't wish to bring the board into disrepute because of your unconventional opinions, that's an honourable action, as you put the Org before your position, and you should be saluted. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

BP has been the one who screwed this up, not the .org. The solution is simple, remove the problem. Obviously his presence is causing a lot of strain for the moderatators. I've seen at least half a dozen clash with him directly so far.

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As for BP, I neither know nor much care. I haven't seen many of his posts, but I tend to read the mod and research forums, so perhaps he doesn't post there.

Sorry, missed this part:

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

So Morat, should we get rid of all the mods, or BP? This seems rather simple to me.

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You obviously see this as black and white, and I don't see why it's either BP or the Moderators. And I have not called for the banning of any member.

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Originally Posted by Morat

I'm saying that he has obviously broken the rules that govern this forum, unless either I'm completely misunderstanding them or "troll" is consider an affectionate term in these parts. To me it is clearly an insult, an insult that was clearly directed at an individual.

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Trolling is against the rules in these forums I believe. So it's not like the thread was started to call BP a "dumbass", as being a dumbass is not against the forum rules.

Uhh, can someone close this slurfest. It's getting old. I can't beleave how big a deal it became.

You people should know something, ok? I don't thin kbefore I speak, so anything you read by me take with a grain of salt(lol).

Right. The board itself shall now change the way in which it interprets posts so you become less offensive.

~:confused:

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I don't thin kbefore I speak

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Then speak not.
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Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre

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Red Harvest, you're speaking your emotions mate.

[/color]

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Not at all. I'm taking a rather dispassionate view of the problem. I see a simple and fair solution. Standing around wringing our hands for months seems foolish and counterproductive.

Side note:
You disagree with me because of my view of Palestinian actions and my stance on terrorism. At the moment I am very pleased to see that the Palestinians have decided to turn away from their failed terroristic policies and try to build a nation (hurray for the death of Arafat, best thing that has happened in Palestine in many years.) IIRC I was called a racist by you and others for declaring quite rightly what the problem was with the Palestinian abandonment of negotiation in favor of terrorism, whereby they had become a terrorist people. It is satisfying watching my position vindicated by their current actions in the opposite direction (Abbas acknowledging that embracing terrorism had been working counter to their cause.)

Calling the actions of a people wrong is not racism--since these are cultural or political actions, not some sort of genetic racial theory. You and Saturnus do not seem to understand the concept. With Saturnus being a mod in the backroom and his obvious bias and poor judgement, I had no interest in ever visiting his forum again. You see, a racist view point would neither see such a shift as being possible, nor would it care if there were such a shift. My view is simpler: terrorism should not be accepted by the civilized world, and those that practice and support it should be dealt with in the most severe measures possible, as long as they persist in doing so.

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

Right. The board itself shall now change the way in which it interprets posts so you become less offensive.

~:confused:

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~D ~D ~D ~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by Morat

As a separate point, a staff member usually has wide ranging powers in their own forums (which could be used against a patron he dislikes, discouraging that patron to post there), will have access to the staff forums (if there are any), relationships with all staff members (and as a result the ability to influence decisions of the staff), and usually the support of many members of the forum. In other words a staff member is far more than any ordinary patron even if they have no powers in the forum.

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As I have always perceived it, staff = Tosa Inu. It's, for him, a more courteous way of saying "I".

That's not unheard of. A certain software program that I've had for years is developed and supported by a single person with some help from his significant other, while he always speaks "we" officially, referring to the corporation, which practically consists of himself + 1.
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Ok no hard feelings guys. I'm retiring from trolling business. Anytime I don't like something i'll just shut the hell up. Is that good enough? [I'm not being sarcastic]

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Originally Posted by Red Harvest

Side note:
You disagree with me because of

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Yes, because you are someone worth disagreeing. You are not in my ignore list. (Otherwise all of your posts would be out of my sight.) Others are in the list because they're unworthy of being taken granted. While you criticise (albeit too heated at times), others plain shout and curse.

There's a difference between disapproval or criticism and calling for hatred and shouting deathwishes.
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Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

Anytime I don't like something i'll just shut the hell up. Is that good enough? [I'm not being sarcastic]

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It would be a start.

I've been round these boards a while and as you can see I've got a fair few posts. There are certain patrons who drive me nuts, who make my blood boil, who leave me lying awake at night as I stew over the things they've said that have got me so angry. Yet, in all the time I've been here, in all the posts I've made, despite as angry and upset as I ever get, I have never been banned, never had my warn level raised, never been warned by the mods - publicly or privately.

How hard can it be to not go round insulting people? Saying "thats just me" etc is no excuse. I hate it when people say "that's the way I am" or "take me or leave me" as if that somehow justifies bad behaviour, because it doesn't. One of the things I liked about the org when I first started hanging around back in the pre-MTW days was the Shogun style of "honour" that existed amongst the patrons. It can still be seen in many of the old timers, and many of the post Shoggy patrons posses it as well. The discussion between Red Harvest and Mouzapherre in this thread is a prime example. You can disagree with someone but still be polite about it.

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Oh please, don't fall back on this disingenuous fiction that staff members are just ordinary members outside their own forum. Members of staff, where they like it or not, are more senior patrons of this forum wherever they are, even if they don't have their moderator powers. And it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise. Can you honestly say that if an ordinary patron had accused another patron of being a troll, or of trolling (even if true), that there would be no repercussions? The FAQ clearly states that "Any kind of "flaming", slurs or insults adressed to an individual or a group is extremely inappropriate. Please respect etiquette at all times." As a member of this board, you should know this. As a staff member, you should know better.

But as you are just a patron of this forum, one that has clearly broken one of the major rules around this place, I expect TosuInu will take the appropriate action.

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IMDHO :vulcan: I call a spade a spade not to do so would be wrong. Also IMDHO I believe BP to be one of the more intelligent posters and with a slight change in abrasiveness his points of view would be received much better, it is a good idea to sugar a bitter pill not heap on tabasco. He is smart enough to be able to change his delivery methods yet increase what others understand what he meant.

I get PMed and emailed if I write something offensive. Mods are not of a uniform opinion or methodology... which is a good thing. I personnally think doing this out in the open is a method of last resort. But if the staff banned BP then there would be outrage that it wasn't transparent. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Why bother? IMDHO I think that we should be free to speak without injury to others. However sometimes we need to highlight each others actions either good or bad to each other in a group. We used to be alot more polite yet quite rowdy when we called each other name-san or name-sama. I would like to see BP stay, just I don't want to see anyone leave because he hurts them deeply with some of his knee-jerk comments. Better to heal as a group and learn as one then be like mushrooms... feed manure and kept in the dark.
~:grouphug:

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Originally Posted by Byzantine_Prince

Ok no hard feelings guys. I'm retiring from trolling business. Anytime I don't like something i'll just shut the hell up. Is that good enough? [I'm not being sarcastic]

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If you wish to tease... and I do all the time.

Use smiles or a false tag ie [tease] ... [/tease], [sarcasm] [irony] [rant] etc

To make it obvious what you are doing... the written word lacks inflection and body language. Some of what you write might be very funny like Chris Rock or dead nasty like the KKK depending purely on the tone someone receives it... give us stoopid ones :dunce: a clue ok :bulb2:.

Also don't get upset if you tease someone and they tease you back...:duel:

Most importantly make fun of yourself as readily as others. ~:cheers: ~:grouphug:

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Originally Posted by Morat

If as you say, you chose to resign from the staff because people assumed you spoke on their behalf, and you didn't wish to bring the board into disrepute because of your unconventional opinions, that's an honourable action, as you put the Org before your position, and you should be saluted. :bow:

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Don't read too much into it. I didn't "take a bullet" for the .org or anything self sacrificial like that. I valued my independence above being an AM. Nobody told me I had to choose. I felt that making a clear distinction between the two was necessary.

And I wasn't "staff." I was just trying to help in a forum. This misunderstanding of someone being staff is why I felt it best to not carry an AM title. The junior members don't seem to get it (nor do some senior members.)

The function of the backroom is confusing. I made the mistake of venturing there as an AM. I was under the impression that I could discuss current political topics rather openly. Saturnus let his personal political views color his modding, and he had a distorted definition, a very poor showing. It is the worst experience I have ever had with a moderated forum in the past 10 years. Yet I don't see this as a failing of the .org, just one moderator.

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I guess we better get on with getting AIDS over to India then Ac.Troll, right? ~;)

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That’s his latest post. Having an opinions fair, but talking like that about a disease that has killed so many and will continue to for so long, a disease which has destroyed millions of families and left a generation if orphans all across the world is just wrong. Even if he meant it in jest which he did, he should at least try to have the common decency to keep his thoughts to himself and not joke about that kind of thing.

I don't want him or anyone banned but I think that a quiet word or if inapplicable a lot of shouting should be used to try and get through that holding opinions is one thing but voicing them when they will cause offence and hurt to people is just not on.

Byzantine Prince, if you are as smart as you say you are and as Papewaio believes then please think before you post.

You're english. It's unexcuseable for you not to understand sarcasm.

I guess I better stop watching South Park. ~D

Sarcasm is one thing joking about that is not sarcasm. Its sick.

Dude I wasn't agreeing with him. You might notice I was making fun of his idiotic opinion that AIDS was good because it reduced population in Africa. Pay more attention in the sentence structure and stop accusing me of things I don't want.

Again please. No hard feelings. :balloon2: :balloon2: ~:cheers: :balloon2: :balloon2:

Reading is an art, writing is an art. Both are required for a discussion.

This topic is closed now.