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This is a series of posts concerning the recruitment of Praetorians. It has been split from the Fixes for bugs in the unit file research thread in the Ludus Magna.
The post by hrvojej to which Bob the Insane refers is this one:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=703763
hrvojej - real nice post, I have implemented practically all of that...
For the above items I just want to add:
1) For any Praetorian unit I have used the conditions " and hidden_resource rome and marian_reforms". This restricts the production of Praetorians to the master of the city of Roman. This feels right and should hopefully give the Senate a fighting chance in the late game...
2) Those changes that where made of the availability of cavalry and catapults for Spain, you would still have to capture cities that have buildings to allow these to be built as spain can not build those itself (I think)...
Praetorian recruitment wasn't just restricted to Latium, although it was restricted mainly to Italians until the reforms in 193AD when Septimus Severus decided to punish them for auctioning off the position of emperor - he disbanded them and then reformed them using provincial troops, primarily Illyrians.
Until Tiberius, Praetorian recruitment was restricted to Italians from Latium, Etruria, Umbria and the oldest colonies, with Cisapline Gaul being added by Claudius.
So the Praetorian's where (forgive the comparison) like the SS? Selective in their recruitment and hyper loyal troops rather specifically being the Emperor's bodyguard?
If so then would it make more sense to limit their production to the "italy" hidden resource??
The Romans did consider their full citizens to be a step above other freemen, granting them greater rights under their laws, so there is a degree of assumed superiority, plus it was no doubt considered a given fact that a citizen would automatically be considered more loyal to Rome than one of the lesser freemen.
The Italy hidden resource would fit reasonably well the historical recruitment areas of the Praetorians for the dates the game covers.
Extending the discussion to the Urbans, I'm in the camp for removing them. Yes, they existed and they no doubt would have been used in combat if required but they were intended as police force, guarding the city, just as the Praetorians were intended to guard the emperor himself. I'm not aware of any records where the Urban cohorts actually fought, unlike the Praetorians who were often sent out on campaign. As a note, there were two additional Urban cohorts stationed outside of Rome, one in Lyons and one in Carthage, and there are indications that both recruited locally as well as from the Italian peninsula.
I'm in camp, keep fixes in FIX thread, keep mods in MODs thread.
Haveing Preatorians before Marius is a bug (since they have testudo!), anything else is subjective and is more a mod work then a fix work.
I'm in that camp too. Will move the Praetorian discussion to the Colosseum asap.Quote:
Originally Posted by player1
Move complete - please read first post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by therother
Thanks for posting this and sorry for littering up your thread (again...)... :bow:
Well then the consenus so far appears to be that the various Praetorian units should be limited after Marius is a fix...
Whether those units should be generally available or limited further is what is up for discussion now. Personally, the idea of limiting the Praetorians recruitment to Italy is one idea I like. It fits with how they have been described.
For the Urbans, rather than banning them perhaps limiting them to be produced in Rome, Lyons (which province would that be in RTW?) and Carthage, by the Roman factions. Much in the way that the Spartans are limited for the Greeks (the spartans being a similar style super unit...).
For game balance you would probably need a fourth location for the Urbans as there are four Roman factions. Possibly reusing the Sparta hidden resource...
Any opinions?
Whoa.. your idea of Urban Cohorts being trained at Sparta is soooo cool. Even if it's anything but historical. Those deadly Spartans serving as the finest of Rome... ~D
Lyon is the province of Lugdunum in the game.
I'd like Urban Cohorts being trained only at Rome, though. They were garrisoned in the other 2 provinces during the Empire, aren't they?
Praetorians fit perfectly with the Italian resource. If you want them to be less numerous, increase their upkeep, may be? Those men are rather elite, after all.
Well, it's interesting to note that Urban Chohort is already better then Prethorian, so I really see no need to have Prethorians in some way limited.
Also, would that mean limiting Prethorian Cavalry too?
Of course limiting urban and pret. cavalry to italy, would make last upgrade for barracks and stables useless outside italy.
For the barracks you could restructure the techtree by moving up the Roman post-Marius infantry one step. It wouldn't hurt as much as we might think since the Marian reforms happens at a time when all three active factions are high up the techtree. It does limit the Romans in they expansion, but is that really a bad thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by player1
About the cavalry... That one is rather hard, but I'm thinking of giving the Romans the small elephants (in elephant regions). They are rare, they are not as good as the others, the Romans used elephants a few times and they give the last stables a reason.
"Of course limiting urban and pret. cavalry to italy, would make last upgrade for barracks and stables useless outside italy"
If you did that, then perhaps Auxilia and Roman Cavalry could get an experience boost at that level, and/or add a morale bonus to all units trained there like you get at the temples? That would mean if you have the spare money and nothing else to build, you should build the highest level barracks and stables anyway.
Urban Cohorts should also be restricted to Rome, Lyon and Carthage only. about the Praetorian Cohorts i also restricted them to Italy only just as Praetorian Cavalry.
BTW limiting cavalry to Italy only is not historical you could better do outside Italy only cause the Roman cavalry were non-romans mostly.
In fact, they get many Gallic cav for light and mediums and Germanics for heavies.
The highest level native Roman cavalry should really not be much stronger than Roman cav in the game as the Romans were not known for the cav just like the Greeks. They should be able to recruit heavy mercs with a crippling upkeep though.
As for the praetorian question, the fact that Marius now is 220BC, I think we should have them as is. The palace gives you elite guards. Besides, there will be no other reason to fly up the tech level otherwise.
If no Praetorians, then it's hard to use any high level units to decide any important battles. In 10 yrs, I usually get about 25-30 provinces. By the time I get praetorians now, it's already a bit late.
So are we getting the basic idea of Praetorians wrong?
What was special about them as compared to "orginary" legions?
I have just pulled the following off a web site, does it sound correct?
"The Praetorian Guard was formed by the emperor Augustus to help prevent assassins from reaching the emperor and murdering him as Brutus and his companions had murdered Julius Caesar. It was called by that name in imitation of the Praetoria Cohors, or select troop, which attended the person of the praetor or general of the Roman army. This cohort is said to have been first formed by Scipio Africanus out of the bravest troops, whom he exempted from all their duties except guarding his person."
And:
"The term "Praetorian" came from the tent of the legate of a legion in the field - the praetorium. It was a habit of many Roman generals to choose from the ranks a private force of soldiers to act as bodyguards of the tent or the person. They consisted of both infantry and cavalry. In time, this cohort came to be known as the cohors praetoria, and various notable figures possessed one, including Julius Caesar, Marcus Antonius and Augustus Caesar (Octavianus). As Caesar discovered with the Legio X Gemina, a powerful unit more dangerous than its fellow legions was desirable in the field. When Augustus became the first ruler of the Roman Empire in 27 BC, he decided such a formation was useful not only in war but in politics. Thus, from the ranks of the legions throughout the provinces, Augustus recruited the Praetorian Guard."
I have seen a few more like that as well...
So if the general's body guard are the Praetoria Cohors, then are the other Praetorian units merely extensions of these??
If so it appears that the creation of these units by any of the Roman factions is perfectly valid (though whole legions of them are a tad unrealistic)...
I have also come across the following:
Cohors urbana - Urban cohort. military police unit.
COHORS URBANA - Cohort assigned to protect or police a city, town or village.
"The eductated and wealthy are always treated with a good deal more respect and favour in law courts than ‘everybody else’. For the wealthy who are found guilty, crimes such as fines and exile are more appropriate. For everyone else there are also confiscations of property, flogging, mutilation, service as a slave-gladiator or galley or mine slave, or execution (by wild animal, beheading or crucifixion). Public order is kept by the local garrison of the army, usually light troops such as cavalry or archers. Sometimes mercenaries are hired by the governor to keep the peace, or a special unit of troops, an urban cohort, is raised. "
It appears that the Urban cohort was raised specifically for policing duties, but other that that details are not easy to find (on Google anyway ~D ) Do we know why they are the most elite of the Roman units in RTW??
Opinions??
Interesting tidbit there, Bob. I didn't know that about the Cohors Praetoria. Most of my study has been of the Roman military after the formation of the empire. If every general from the time of Scipio Africanus recruited a bodyguard, then perhaps leaving them to be trainable anywhere with an Imperial Palace is the best option. The only barrier we can make to armies of nothing BUT Praetorians is each player's own self discipline.
Opinions? CA figured post Marius, the player's armies would be filled with little more than Legionaries, and perhaps some archers (cavalry excluded). So for variation they wanted to add an elite unit. After much searching for a reference to elite units, they decided to give the job to the Urban Cohorts. And I doubt there is much else to it. Another historical sacrifice for gameplay reasons I assume.
If RTW had been a little more complex and a bit less shallow, units could have been given a Garrison duty bonus. Urban Cohorts could have been less effective on the field of battle, but the best for keeping public order in check.
I have downgraded Urban cohorts to be slightly more effective and twice the price of town guards. They are my primary garrison unit PM. I haven't adjusted my praetorians, but will probably make them Italy only.
mfberg
i said that before to people saying they didn't exist, they do exist but aren't the elite. maybe they were good, and CA says the pay was better but it wasn't the serving times was longer and the wages lower, because they didn't exposed themselves to danger everytime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob the Insane
than i would like new skins to. i don't like to see a heavily armoured unit with armour rating of 6. BTW the auxilia were the standard towngaurds after marius. Urban cohorts were the elite of the peacekeepers.Quote:
Originally Posted by mfberg
from low to best
1. Town Watch
2. Auxilia
3. Cohorte Urbanea (in Rome Carthage and Lyon only)
in normal army
1. legionares
2. Praetorian cohorte (in italy only)
The Praetorian Cohorts can be considered an extension of the old praetors' bodyguards. In effect their greater scale was also a message that the emperor was far more important than any old praetor. Their numbers also gave the emperor a lot more flexibility since he could send a fair sized force of his personal troops on a task while still retaining more than enough bodyguards to keep himself safe.
I severely doubt that Urban Cohorts would be recruited to guard just any village or town, since the only evidence points to them being stationed only in Rome, Lyons and Carthage. A town watch might maybe have been given the title of urbaniciani, but they wouldn't be the urbaniciani!
I think the recruitment patterns give a good clue as to what unit the Romans considered the more elite out of the pair: before Severus the Praetorians recruited primarily Italians, while the Urbans always recruited among Italians and locals, ie. Italians only for Rome, with less than half the Carthage Urbans being Italian at times. If the Urbans were as elite as the Praetorians then surely they'd want to restrict them primarily to the presumed superior and more loyal Italians.
There's also another point, that as a rule of thumb the more elite a unit, the shorter its service. In 6AD for example, Praetorians served 16 years, Urbans 20 years and common Legionaires 20 or 22 years. Auxilia are not as well documented but they seem to serve 25 years or more. The trend is broken by the emperor's closest, most personal, bodyguards, the equites singulares Augusti, who served between 27 and 29 years during the same time period, although given that they were recruited from the auxilia cavalry that could explain the discrepancy.
Given their equipment and likely training, the Urbans probably should be equivilant to Late Legionary Cohorts, in which case why bother with them as a seperate unit at all? Simply recuit Late Legionary Cohorts in Rome & decide that they're your Urbans!
the equitata singulares are Legionary cavalry
equitata singulares augusti are the Praetorian cavalry in the game. i already renamed this in mine.
The urban cohorts are actually considered worse than praetorians. They were elite but were never in battles and good performance in maintaining order will get them to Praetorian guards.
The praetorians were guards but soon became a political force and auctioned off the emperor title several times.
Historically, I believe that only 10 cohorts max of praetorians were active at one time.
as i said the Urbans were elite as the first cohors were exstracted from the praetorian cohors, but never saw battle (almost never) and were a counter balance to the mightier praetorians (in numbers). as a police force in big cities they were atleast the elite in Lyon and Carthage.
I'm in the process of removing the urban and praetorian cohors altogether in the game and having higher level barracks giving bonus morale and experience instead of producing these units. You would not have faced these units as an enemy of Rome. I'm even thinking about removing the legionary cohors from the game save the early legionary cohors. A bit extreme but I'd like to think I'm simulating at least some historical accuracy in my game. And I hope the Marian reform occurs near the time when it actually happened.
What the Italian peninsula needs is some allied contingency in forms of their cavalry and infantry support, so I added and modified Greek cavalry and modified Samnites as mercs available for the peninsula.
I think a distinction needs to be made... There is a lot of comparison between the RTW units and Imperial era Roman units yet the game is pre-empire... We have to accept that the Praetorians refered to are most definately not the Emperor's Praetorian Guard, they do not exist yet... They are the Cohors Praetoria, the body guards of Generals and the elite cohort within a legion (whether this applies after the birth of the empire I have no idea)...
As such I think it is perfectly acceptable for them to built as per the way the game runs now, does this sound reasonable?
As for the Urban Cohorts, I think that the fact that they were rare and a bit mysterious lead CA to use them as the elite Roman unit and I am in favor of limiting where they can be build to reasonably historic locations (much as many of the other factions' elite units are limited), possibly even just Rome for game play reasons...
Is there any problem with multiple building requirements for units? It seems strange that you can recruit a Praetorian Cohort in a city without at least an Army Barracks. Could the line be changed to:
Haven't tried it, but I assume that you can use the building_present_min_level function for recruiting. Does the AI have problems adjusting to multi-building requirements?Code:recruit "roman praetorian cohort i" 0 requires factions { roman, } and marian_reforms and building_present_min_level barracks army_barracks
Although if you already have army barracks and imperial palace, someone would wonder why haven't you build 5th level barracks for Urbans that are better then Praethorians.
Understood. But a city that expands to the Imperial Palace doesn't necessarily have to have any military capability. The Imp Palace gets built, and all of the sudden you can build Praetorians with no military buildings at all? Seems wrong. You ought to have the capability to build at least a Legionary Cohort before you can put together a Praetorian.Quote:
Originally Posted by player1
The game does cover the Imperial era to a limited extent, after all it ends at 14AD & Augustus became emperor effectively in 23BC. As a note, the Praetorians were formed in about 31BC so they do fall within the timeframe the game covers.
Given the existance of the earlier Cohors Praetori as first introduced by Scipio Africanus, perhaps a pre-Marian version might be worthwhile. These could be based upon the Princepes, with their stats suitably boosted to account for their elite status, and would be recruitable anywhere. Once the Reforms occur, the current Praetorians would replace them, being buildable only in Italy to match their historical recruitment pool. OK, the historical timing of the Reforms and the creation of the Praetorians don't quite match, but the Reforms are the only viable trigger event we have available.
The Urbans were introduced in 13BC by Augustus and aren't really mysterious at all, their just not as well known by the general public since they don't have the glamor and political notoriety of being the emperor's guards. It's also noteworthy that in second century AD they came under the control of the Praetorian prefects, effectively being absorbed, which is a further indication of their lower ranking. Unlike the Praetorians, the Urbans did survive the defeat at the Milvian Bridge in 312AD, but they were later reduced to a non-military workforce.
Katank, the Praetorians started as 9 cohorts of approximately 500 men, were increased to 12 sometime before 47AD, then 16 cohorts of 1000 men in 69AD by Vitellius. Vespasian reduced them back down to the original 9 cohorts of 500, then Domitian added a tenth, presumably so that they'd be effectively as Legion strength. When Severus disbanded and then reformed them using provincial troops he increased their size to 1000 per cohort again.
A further note about the Praetorians: they were considered equitatae, that is a mixed infantry and cavalry force. If they followed a similar organisation to auxilia with the same designation then they'd have had 6 centuries of infantry and 3 30-man turmae of cavalry. Apparently there's some scholarly debate on the subject, but these seem a more likely origin for the Praetorian Cavalry rather than the equites singulares Augusti. The latter are a completely seperate corp to the Praetorians and are more properly represented by the bodyguard of your faction leader, with other generals' bodyguards effectively being equites singulares.
The way they are in this game are just fantasies. There should've been a disclaimer with the game.
well that's why it is a game and a game only, it isn't a hystory book, but i do regret it.
The Praetorian guards were originally created by Augustus as the highest an Italian soldier could go. They were the Emperor's personal bodyguard, and were ORIGNALLY based in towns around Rome itself. However, under the Praetorian Prefect Sejanus in the reign of Tiberius, they were moved into one large camp right outside Rome. After the reforms of Septimus Severus, the Praetorian guards were not a sole Italian force but its membership was the highest point of any soldier's career. This is why the Praetorian Guards became a mostly provincial force (with lots of Illyrians), since the Danubian border had been by far the most active (in terms of wars) within the last century, and the legions based along the Danube were the best seasoned veterans within the Empire. The Praetorian Guards did not participate often in the border wars, but went to battle when the Emperor himself travelled to war.
The Praetorian cohorts in the game, however, appear to be simply the bodyguard of the commander of an Republican army, and i think i remember a reference that Caesar had one.
The Urban Cohorts were also an Italian force, but did not have the prestige that the Praetorian Cohorts had. They were unique in that they were the ONLY force under the command of a Senator (the City Prefect) besides the quasi-military Vigiles (The Watch, the freedman firefighting/nightwatch force in Rome), with the rest of the legions under the command of Legati picked by the Emperor.
The Equites Singulares appears to be the German Bodyguard of the Emperor, that was picked from cavalry auxilia.. I'm not sure when they were disbanded, but it was for some reason or another.
Sinner: Vespasian didn't actually "reduce" the Praetorian Guard from the 16 of Vitellius. Vitellius was the governor of one of the Germanies in the Year of the Four Emperors civil war, and Vespasian was the eventual victor. After Vitellius defeated the Praetorian picked candidate, Otho, he disbanded the Praetorian guards and filled it with the soldiers within the Rhine legions. Vespasian disbanded this Praetorian guard and reformed it at its previous levels.
Note: I mainly studied post Republican era Roman history, and only did this from memory.. feel free to correct any mistakes i made..
If one wanted to remedy the feeling that simply having an imperial palace without barracks seems a little easy for building a powerful unit like praetorians, then couldn't one just simply make praetorians require both an army barracks and imperial palace (and post-Marian)? That would tie them up quite nicely in the tech tree.