..Thoughts on the game, bugs and patches

I haven't posted in a long while (since MTW) but I've been playing Rome since December and haven't been on here much. My big question.....are all the bugs I've been reading about if you use the patches?

I play the game with no patches and after the first week I was getting many CTDs but after I updated my driver I can say its has been very rare. Actually playing almost everyday I think i've had one in the last month. In fact, most of the things I've been reading about here I hadn't even noticed. I do see the suicidal general issue (which pissed me off) but I've been able to deal with it. To me its seem to happen when I don't take offensive with my controlled army or when the "other" general has a small army to command. But when I have a big army as does my reinforcements, my generals have played it pretty smart.

The "end turn/stop siege" problem I didn't realize. I've been reading all about how the AI doesn't expand but I haven't seen it. In my Carthage campaign, I'm at about 210BC with 20 regions and I'll I'm seeing is the Julii throughout Northern Europe with huge armies, the Brutii in Greece and central Europe and Rome and Scipii gone...thanks to me. Five factions are gone and most are useless besides Egypt. Looks like a lot of expansion to me.

Many of the other "bugs" I've heard about I haven't even seen. One that comes to mind is the lack of navy building by the AI. Well, in Carthage campaign I have no fleets because three full stack fleets I did have were whiped out by the Romans (Senate before I took them and the Brutii. I'm also playing a Greek and Macedonian campaign and in both there are hundreds of ships everywhere.

Without really knowing all the details, its seems like a very playable game was made unplayable.

So my big questions are....First, what was the original patch supposed to fix because I'm curious to know?

Second, were many of these problems to be found in the game before the patches?

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Originally Posted by Josephus V

Many of the other "bugs" I've heard about I haven't even seen. One that comes to mind is the lack of navy building by the AI. -------------------------------------------------------

Second, were many of these problems to be found in the game before the patches?

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I don't think that was ever considered a bug. In fact, a problem with 1.1 was that the AI would spam hundreds of useless (one or two ship) fleets.

My main issue with the version you are playing is friendly fire and the pri/sec bug and phalanxes pretty much sucked.

Now I hate 1.2 because for whatever reason the AI expands at a worthless rate, the VnVs are screwed up, HAs are screwed up, the difficulty levels are screwed up, and of course the siege/load game bug.

Some of the bugs you may have read about (especially the seige bug) have come with the patches. The biggest bug with 1.0 was probably the primary/secondary weapon bug that made the romans and some (or all) archers much tougher than they should have been. There was a bunch of other stuff including that protectorates didnt work at all.

Pre-v1.2 the game had faults, but the 1.2 patch has only made the situation worse in my opinion for the reasons listed by Proletariat. Sure, CA fixed many issues with 1.2 but they left so much unaddressed and in addition introduced those new and critical bugs that make the SP game even worse now.

So I thought I'd switch to MP even though I'm not really into online gaming, having discovered that a friend also played RTW. We configured our firewalls, made sure we weren't running any other software that might cause conflicts and played a couple of test games on Gamespy to prove all was well. And those are the only two games we have ever been able to get working.

Every other time we've tried, the hosted game hasn't appeared in the list, or it appears but all attempts to connect fail, or if we're really lucky we get all the way through to a battle only to desynch as soon as combat begins.

We've tried everything we can think of - and we're both IT professionals in networking and system administration so we're no technical slouches - and we've had no joy: we've parsed through firewall logs looking for any problems; we've turned off our software firewalls completely; removed our routers (with hardware firewalls) and connected directly; tried logging on to a near-empty lobby; set graphics, etc to minimal on both systems; even tried battles with small units and only one unit per side. They all fail!

Maybe CA will fix it all with the expansion pack. Big whoop. An expansion requires the original game to play and I can't see RTW being on my PC a week from now, let alone later in the year when the pack will be released supposedly. I'd dig up MTW so at least I could play a decent game, but I'm too p*ssed at Activision/CA right now.

Thanks.

Actually the Protectorate has worked for me, but not much. What is the Prim/Sec bug? I heard about it but what does it do. Is it because the Archers shoot themselves and people in front of them. Well that's seem realistic to me and I make the adjustments. For the Romans, I don't play them anyway because the game would seem to easy.

Just like with MTW before, I never use the patches and the games have always seemed to work for me. I must be lucky!

It means missile units use their missle attack stat for melee. :dizzy2:

This should explain why you may have seen your General be hacked to bits by Cretan Archers. If it wasn't for this, I could consider 1.1.

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Originally Posted by Sinner

Pre-v1.2 the game had faults, but the 1.2 patch has only made the situation worse in my opinion for the reasons listed by Proletariat. Sure, CA fixed many issues with 1.2 but they left so much unaddressed and in addition introduced those new and critical bugs that make the SP game even worse now.

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What "critical bugs" do you mean? The 1.2 patch didn't create the siege /save game bug; it was already there. The bug with horse archers is easily fixed in 10 minutes on your own, and even if you don't want to fix it, is hardly a critical problem because it doesn't affect any major civs at all. VnV problems? I hardly think they are a critical problem. The scarring trait for generals was the worst, and again, easily fixed on your own.

If you don't save and reload your game frequently, you won't see any issue with the siege/save bug. I never knew it was there until reading about it here because I let RTW run in the background all the time. I don't reload games often, and so the AI was happily expanding and sieging as it was supposed to.

I define a critical bug as one that seriously diminishes gameplay quality, or makes the game unplayable because of an error that cannot be worked around. The primary/secondary bug was about the most serious one I can recall.

Patch 1.1 was mainly to help MP players, with the only SP component being the nerfing of elephants because people complained they were too powerful. Patch 1.2 fixed a very many bugs and annoyances: a whole lot more than it may have created in the process. The behavior of the AI in campaign mode is better with 1.2 than before, and a whole slew of complaints were addressed.

The only complaint I have about new behavior is that you can no longer attack enemy ships when they are in port, but they can attack you, as well as leave whenever they want--right through your blockade. That seems rather stupid to me. What's the use of trying to landlock your enemies if the military ships are immune to blockade.

The siege bug is crippling. They need a beta for these things next time. Clearly the testers are failing (or actually working and it was just dire before).

Before you jump on the testers, consider the fact that the siege bug has been present since 1.1! Now if a community of thousands of players take 4+ months to discover it, one can hardly blame a small selection of testers for missing it! ;-)

I disagree that the siege bug is crippling. It is a serious bug, yes, but there is a simple workaround, and so the game is still playable until such time as a patch or expansion can be gotten for it. I don't think it is any worse than the primary/secondary bug, and that wasn't crippling. But to hear some people talk, you would have thought that was the worst bug ever discovered.

good point, jambo. we should cut the testers themselves some slack. the problem is the restrictive two-patch policy or whatever it is. a game of this complexity could never be properly supported with such absurd limitations.

OC, the key point in your post is "I define critical bugs as...". I'm simply more discerning or less tolerant than you when it comes to the bugs still remaining in RTW after 2 patches.

To me critical flaws were introduced in RTW, and whether or not we are able to modify the game or adopt certain playing styles where possible to eradicate them or lessen their effect does not change the fact that the patch introduced those flaws.

The fixes developed here and on other forums also rely upon the player having the ability to make the required changes and even being aware that it's possible to do so in the first place. I know two players of RTW who weren't aware of forums like this, assuming - not unreasonably - that downloading the patches from the official TW site would fix any bugs in the game. More importantly I do not subscribe to the view that I or any other player should have to work out and deploy our own fixes. Activision/CA don't pay me so why should I have to do their work for them given that I'm the customer.

If I were to produce a new program at work and issue it to my users, leaving it to them to detect and fix any bugs, my IT director would be having more than a few words with me and none of them pleasant. Given that I spent my hard-earned money I see no reason why I shouldn't hold Activision/CA to similar standards.

Anyway, that's just all my opinion, and your opinion apparently differs. Mine works for me and yours works for you. Which is more than can be said for some parts of RTW.

Old Celt,
what is the simple workaround for the siege bug? Remember, its not just seiges that are affected but any multi-turn actions.
The only one I know is to keep playing in long 50 hour sitting (or leave the game running all the time).
Any loading at all of a saved game and the (already struggling) AI is screwed.

So how do you fix the horse archer bug, Old Celt?

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Originally Posted by tai4ji2x

good point, jambo. we should cut the testers themselves some slack. the problem is the restrictive two-patch policy or whatever it is. a game of this complexity could never be properly supported with such absurd limitations.

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You hit the nail on the head. To me this is right on the money. No game the size and complexity of Rome TW should ever be limited to two post-release patches. It's too big. Other strat games of comparative size and quality have had and indeed require several patches to fix glaring issues - Rome is no different

Unlike Old Celt, I tend to feel this siege loadgame bug is fairly crippling. Anything that affects the AI to such an extent surely can't be anything else other than crippling!? At least with the Pri-Sec bug and the horse archer bug, the bugs are not limited to the AI.

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Originally Posted by Old Celt

I disagree that the siege bug is crippling. It is a serious bug, yes, but there is a simple workaround, and so the game is still playable until such time as a patch or expansion can be gotten for it. I don't think it is any worse than the primary/secondary bug, and that wasn't crippling. But to hear some people talk, you would have thought that was the worst bug ever discovered.

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Leaving the game continuously turned on is not a realistic workaround.

I don't disagree that CA is responsible for the bugs. I do disagree that the siege bug was introduced with the patch. Testing suggests it has been present since 1.1, and perhaps even with 1.0, but I haven't read conclusive evidence for the status of 1.0.

I understand that leaving the machine running might not be feasible for some people, but it is simple and effective. Also, the AI does get back on track after a reload, so it's not like it's broken for good when you do need to load it.

No, I'm not saying customers should be responsible for fixing anything. What I'm saying is that we can help ourselves if we choose, rather than just waiting for these jokers to do something. I don't know about you, but I'd rather fix what can be fixed now, because I like the game and don't want to wait for October to get better gameplay. It isn't good, but it is preferable to the alternatives of not playing at all or living with the pain.

A fix for the horse archer problem was posted on this forum about a month ago. It involves changing ONE word in the unit description file for each of the affected units, and those units are listed with the fix. If you cannot find the fix in this forum, I can dig up a copy of it and post it back here, but that might take some time.

The fix for the horse archers is stickied over at www.twcenter.net , though I forget just which forum it's in.

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Originally Posted by Old Celt

I don't disagree that CA is responsible for the bugs. I do disagree that the siege bug was introduced with the patch. Testing suggests it has been present since 1.1, and perhaps even with 1.0, but I haven't read conclusive evidence for the status of 1.0.

I understand that leaving the machine running might not be feasible for some people, but it is simple and effective. Also, the AI does get back on track after a reload, so it's not like it's broken for good when you do need to load it.

No, I'm not saying customers should be responsible for fixing anything. What I'm saying is that we can help ourselves if we choose, rather than just waiting for these jokers to do something. I don't know about you, but I'd rather fix what can be fixed now, because I like the game and don't want to wait for October to get better gameplay. It isn't good, but it is preferable to the alternatives of not playing at all or living with the pain.

A fix for the horse archer problem was posted on this forum about a month ago. It involves changing ONE word in the unit description file for each of the affected units, and those units are listed with the fix. If you cannot find the fix in this forum, I can dig up a copy of it and post it back here, but that might take some time.

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- although the siege lifting on its own may have been there all along, there is speculation that 1.2 introduced other AI-forgetfulness upon reloads.

- leaving a machine on is wasteful of electricity ~;) only half-joking, but that aside, if you're one of those who can only play 2-3 turns a night (esp. each turn gets longer on average to complete as your campaign progresses), the AI "getting back on track" is nearly impossible.

- if you can even get connected online anymore, the horse archer fix won't work there.

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Originally Posted by Old Celt

I don't disagree that CA is responsible for the bugs. I do disagree that the siege bug was introduced with the patch. Testing suggests it has been present since 1.1, and perhaps even with 1.0, but I haven't read conclusive evidence for the status of 1.0.

I understand that leaving the machine running might not be feasible for some people, but it is simple and effective. Also, the AI does get back on track after a reload, so it's not like it's broken for good when you do need to load it.

No, I'm not saying customers should be responsible for fixing anything. What I'm saying is that we can help ourselves if we choose, rather than just waiting for these jokers to do something. I don't know about you, but I'd rather fix what can be fixed now, because I like the game and don't want to wait for October to get better gameplay. It isn't good, but it is preferable to the alternatives of not playing at all or living with the pain.

A fix for the horse archer problem was posted on this forum about a month ago. It involves changing ONE word in the unit description file for each of the affected units, and those units are listed with the fix. If you cannot find the fix in this forum, I can dig up a copy of it and post it back here, but that might take some time.

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I have no conclusive evidence but I doubt that the seige bug was present with 1.0. I didnt patch to 1.1 and played 2.5 long campaigns during which time I fought numerous city defenses against an aggressive AI. In contrast, playing in the same stop and start fashion I've not fought one city defense with 1.2 and the game has stagnated with no (or only little) change in the AI empires for 50-100 years. Clearly, the change came with the patch.

As for fixes, I agree that some 'workarounds' exist but disagree as to their value. There are ways to mitigate the worst of the 'true' bugs and if that was the only problem with RTW then things might be different. In my case though, I'm also disappointed with other issues such as the AI and gameplay/unit speeds (amongst others). Of course I can add a mod but, as with the bugs, the changes are not true fixes since many of the problems are hard coded. My time is simply too valuable to waste on band-aids that prove disappointing after investing many hours of play. I'm stopping my one and only 1.2 campaign and plan to go back to Gran Tourismo until something better (CIV4 maybe) or another patch comes along.

Well, what it sounds like to me was the original version is the best and patches did nothing but cause trouble. I did see the siege bug (maybe) the other night. I had to reload and the Thracians ended their siege of my city. But the very next turn, they sieged again with twice the size army. I had to cancel my invasion plans a deal with them.

I've rarely seen Horce Archers in all my campaign so I have no experience with them and it seems minor. Also, I've never noticed supermen archers. I've routed many an archer unit.

Thanks for all the details though.

can someone please tell me what is the horse archer bug? i haven't seen anything buggy, but i didn't had much experience fighting horse archers. i tend to build empires in western europe :)

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Originally Posted by Ciciocle

can someone please tell me what is the horse archer bug? i haven't seen anything buggy, but i didn't had much experience fighting horse archers. i tend to build empires in western europe :)

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Short version:
They don't fire properly while moving. This can be fixed by editing the unit files.

Long version:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43090
It's six pages long, with some ranting and bickering. Good fun ~:cheers:

It has been confirmed by several people over at com that the load siegebug was present in 1.1. Haven't read anything conclusive about 1.0 though.
So obviously something made the AI behave more conservative in 1.2, it could be that previously is was merely 'forced' to leave while now it forgets the purpose for its army's placement. Thus the army gets sent off to do other duties, which they didn't in 1.1.

Yeah,

It's just too much to ask CA to correct the ONE WORD for HA, to correct the mistaken greater than signs for the traits, etc.

That would take them, what? One day. Those aren't even bugs but ERRORS.

How much playing did anyone do before they had 2-3 scareface generals?

I played one campaign half-way through and thought "weird, all my generals are scarred."

heh, no kidding. i didn't even have to play half a campaign. about 25 turns was enough to realize something fishy going on.

thanks a lot, Drone!

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Originally Posted by tai4ji2x

heh, no kidding. i didn't even have to play half a campaign. about 25 turns was enough to realize something fishy going on.

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The problem is not so much finding them when the community size is huge. More how to fix them. Furthermore, this problem isn't as simple as you both may think. Apparently, it goes something along the lines of the trait being the correct way round for auotcalc and needing to be the opposite way round for battle map.

Oh, so its really, really hard. So, let's throw it at the modders rather than having our trained and salaried programmers do it.

I hope these people get the same service when they get their car fixed.

"Damn, I really don't want to re-tighten those lug nuts, well, once that CA dude figures out there's a problem I guess he can tighten them himself."

sheesh, now every time someone even tries to start a thread about the loadgame-siege bug at the official .com forums, it either gets moved and/or locked.

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Originally Posted by tai4ji2x

sheesh, now every time someone even tries to start a thread about the loadgame-siege bug at the official .com forums, it either gets moved and/or locked.

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it's because they know it's a problem and are tabulating the bugs that can be fixed and thereby giving the upcoming XP at least some selling points :dizzy2:

Well, unless they also fix the AI so that it has a clue how to play the game and especially how to fight then there is no point to an expansion. Even discounting the bugs or fixing them yourself the game sucks. My 8 year old son has no trouble winning on hard. Now that my archers don't shoot each other all the time I could actually probably play most of a campaign without losing very many men.

But I still have MTW:VI to play so it's only the pretty graphics that I miss. And there are other games out there that actually have intelligent AIs (Kohan 2) for some fun.

I've been reading with interest all the posts about the load/siege bug and was gutted that i had to save the game in the middle of a siege yesterday.

Anyway, just reloaded and it immediately caught my attention that Egypt is still laying siege to my Scipii town of Tarsus....

Yup, happened to me too. I had to save with two of my cities under siege (threatened to turn into an all nighter). On reloading the sieges were still up. I was playing the macedonians and the two cities were besieged by the jullii and scipii.

BB

If the AI plans to starve out the city, the siege is not broken on a reload of the savegame. I just tested the AI sieging one of my cities in RTW v1.2. I saved the game when the AI started sieging. When I hit end turn the siege was continued on the next turn. Then I reloaded the savegame, and when I hit end turn the AI broke the siege and it's army moved away.

The siege isnt lifted all the time, if you quit Rome and reload a quicksave you have the best chance of it being lifted. (ie bugged) I suggest loading normal savegames if you can, and only quick-loading if you're not under siege.

But i hardly notice it. AI sieging me? You've got to be kidding. If they make it past my forts they're ambushed or attacked before they get within striking range.

As for the patch 1.2, the only real patch so far, it removed some of the bugs. The AI also seems marginally smarter. Pretty good i'd say, especially since my version of Rome is still very stable, as was version 1.0.
More stable than Medieval TW in any case.

Most of the left overs are either hard-coded, or spelling mistakes that we as a community are now fixing with a bug-fixer. Rome is moddable, so things can be fixed. As for the new game rules (walk armies by hand, each square is a possible battlefield), this has both advantages and drawbacks.

I miss factions re-appearing, and i miss glory goals. But i wouldnt start up MTW for them. The graphics and the battles are beautiful tin soldiers fighting, nuff said. Roma victor!

@sunsmountain:

sorry, but the bug has been proven to affect quicksaves, autosaves and manual saves EQUALLY

Yes, the AI will still be seigeing you when you reload - it`s when you end turn that the trouble starts. Next turn they will walk away, like clockwork.

It isn`t even the seiges that affect you the player which are the real problem - it`s all the other AI seiges happening around the world. If you turn off FOW and look around the map in a game that`s a few years in, you`ll see the scale of the problem.