Announcing: Europa Barbarorum

Greetings, Europa Barbarorum fans!

We have some very exciting news for you this week. As you know, the Europa Barbarorum team has been conceptualizing the mod we wished to create since January of 2004. In September of 2004, we began to move toward making our grand vision into a reality. While we have always shared knowledge that can assist the modding community, much of what we have been working on has been kept out of the public view. The team feels that many of the conditions that initiated this no longer exist, so this is about to change.

First, we are sure you will be pleased as we announce that the upcoming beta, planned to be a closed beta, will in fact be open to the entire public. We expect to have a smaller group of individuals we have picked for their contributions to the mod in our public forums, or a specific skillset, provide more controlled and focused feedback. This smaller group will have access to future planned closed betas past the mod's first release. This open beta may possibly be in your hands within a month. *

Now, we would like to introduce you to many of the concepts that we have been hard at work on over the past few months.

Economy and population dynamics

EB is severely limited in the changes it can make to the economy, due to the hard code that surrounds it. We have to represent many things as abstracts. However, in general the population growth will be slower than in vanilla RTW, and the economy will better reflect the economic realities of the classical age.

- Trade ports will be limited in size based on the natural harbor present.
- Resources will be tweaked to better represent classical value, and distribution.
- Wonders will be removed from the campaign map (including the severly over-balancing faction-wide wonder effects). Instead, we will have unique, historicaly famous (and accurate) buildings and structures in many provinces.
- Income is being tweaked to, as best as possible, reflect a standing army ratio based on our research. That is, given a certain number of cities, a faction should be able to support a given size army.
- Individual factions will have individual economic effects per building. Tax rates and other effects will vary by faction, based on historical attributes.
- A complete new religious system will be in place, based on the principle of 'patron' deities, and including as much of faction pantheon diversity as possible.
- An entire new building system is being implemented, with much variety between factions.

Expansion and the military

The military is probably one of EB's brightest achievements. While limited by the 255 model limit, and the 500 unit limit, we are quite proud of our achievements. Aside from removing the ahistorical units, and the units sparsely used and not deserving of a unit or model slot, EB has researched and devised a complete new military for each of our factions. In addition, many groups which do not fall under the faction banners will be included as regional troops, many available to varying factions should their areas be conquered.

All unit recruitment is defined on a per unit basis. This will vary greatly between factions. Some factions will be more difficult to play than others, reflecting the way in which those factions saw conquest of other areas. In general, units will not be as readily available as they are in vanilla, and it will be more of a challenge for the human player.

Our fleet system has been in development for some time. The ship names we released are not going to be represented as individual ships, but rather navies that are comprised of different types of ships based on the faction that builds them.

As a faction expands, in general each faction will have different building choices which represent how the faction governs the conquered province, or deals with the conquered people. These will differ based on how a faction historically treated conquered people, and will result in different recruitment options, as well as other effects upon order and the economy.

- Faction unit lists with about 15 unique, EB-created units each.
- Over a hundred regional/rebel units.
- Military ports will be limited based on historical factors.
- Siege weaponry will be vastly different than in vanilla RTW.
- Unit stats are heavily tweaked to reduce combat speed & lethality, and allow for true maneuvering on the battlefield.
- Unit stats are balanced across the whole system. Units are given historical strengths, no parity is attempted where it did not exist.
- Unit costs are abstracts, being balanced to encourage realistic unit recruitment (within the economic system outlined above). Armies should not consist solely of elite units.
- Units are given recruitment areas on a per-unit basis.
- Faction unit recruitment is based on historical areas, and the faction's method of interacting with conquered areas.
- Recruitment possibility of regionals is based on historical availability, faction attitude towards alliance/subjugation, governing building choice, and other factors.
- Rebels for areas will have appropriate names, unit composition, and some may even be especially recognizable.

Campaign map and strategic UI changes

You have seen a preview of our campaign map. Some changes will be made to what you have seen, and some cosmetic improvements will be made.

- A new scale of river will be used, based on topographical area maps.
- Resources and other map icons will be improved, with new models and textures.
- Terrain and climate is being heavily adjusted based on our research.
- Faction icons are being completely redone.
- The user interface for each faction will have a new feel.

Voices, sounds, and multimedia

As you are probably aware, the Voicemod is now a part of EB; The members have joined the EB team and are assisting in other areas of the project, and the EB team is lending its expertise to the voicemod. In addition, the EB project has a professional music composer working on a new score.

Unfortunately, we currently believe that music can only be adjusted on a per (hard-coded) culture basis, rather than a per faction basis. This may also hold true for the voices as well, which will make our plans to extend the voicemod to all factions moot. We are still searching for someone skilled in manipulating the sound files to assist us in this effort.

- All unit, province, city, and building names will be in the appropriate, ancient language.
- Family trees are fully researched, family names are being fleshed out with appropriate names.
- All six cultures (if not each faction) will have new voices and music.
- New splash screen, loading music, and a greatly expanded repertoire of historical quotes.
- New faction videos for each faction (where the capability exists)

Rome

Until such time where a unified Rome solution that is proven to be bug/nuisance-free exists, EB will continue to search for a solution that includes three Roman factions. Our previous implementation included Optimates, Populares, and Socii. These were abstracts, where the 'leaders' of these factions represented influential members of the particular political group within the Senate, and not an actual political leader. So the Populares faction leader was not actually the political leader of the "Populares" group in the Senate.

Since then we have gone through other ideas. The three factions may be called "Army Groups," or Proconsulates, or Consulates, or two of an above choice and the Socii. Our current implementation in 0.5 is going to be a test of a complete abstract - Dominium Romanum Borealis, Dominium Romanum Australe, and Dominium Romanum Orientalis. These represent, simply, an arbitrary, abstract breakdown of Rome's provincial holdings. Comments are welcome.

Should we continue with this sort of faction division, the Senate seats will be greatly adjusted, for both number and effect.

Proposed future enhancements

EB team members have proposed several enhancements to the EB project, to be decided and worked on once we have the basic EB release closer to complete. We have worked out details of these ideas, but are not yet ready to commit to them or begin work.

- Period adjustments, much like MTW's "early," "mid," and "late" eras.
- Redone and expanded historical battles.
- Multiplayer cost balancing patch.

We hope you are as excited by our plans as we are!

Cheers,

-the EB team

You can find more information about Europa Barbarorum in the following places:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showforum=60

* Note: All dates provided are very rough estimates, and not intended as a predictor of any sort. EB reserves the right to adjust this date based on our own schedules, real life interruptions, bugs encountered, whimsical musings, or for any damn reason we please. Complaints that we have not met an expected date will fall on deaf ears, and will likely result in derision and ridicule.

sounds awesome! great work EB team ~:grouphug:

Short and simple: Hooray!

Edit: Oh, and I support the Era's system. It's a great system, if anything.

Hmmm... Sounds rather interesting.

And yes, go for the eras. As far as I understand such a thing should be a cakewalk for the likes of you. ~D

Public beta!? Yay!

Awesome! Great work guys, should be an excellent mod

Can you expand on the fleets? You mean that those types of ships you posted on a news bulletin are built in fleets of each type? Or that when you build a fleet you assume that they represent everyone of those ships?

That would make the list just for you to imagine them, I guess......was this something you´ve decided since then?


BTW: Everything else is a dream come true. Brilliant job.

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Originally Posted by Sarcasm

Can you expand on the fleets? You mean that those types of ships you posted on a news bulletin are built in fleets of each type? Or that when you build a fleet you assume that they represent everyone of those ships?

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Our fleets will be made up of a number of individual ships. We calculate their stats and cost based on the number of ships of each type in the fleet. A particular fleet may be made up of x ships of type a, y ships of type b, and so on. The fleet description will inform people of what the fleets consist of, at least in a general sense.

We have conceptualized the fleet approach for months, to answer your question.

I'm quite surprised we don't have people questioning us on anything else. After so many of you complained that we were having a closed beta, and shutting down most discussions, I expected more coments about things, especially the abstract Rome. No more tough questions? What happened to the forum dwellers who correct every little thing we do?? ~D

well, you know more than i of course, khelvan.. but wasn't the majority of the complaining coming from just a few individuals? i personally don't care about the beta, i decided a while back that i don't want to beta test it regardless. i trust EB to handle the particulars.

oh and.. does this mean that there's going to be no screenshot-laden weekly news thread?? :cry:

I'm just having a bit of fun with you guys.

Sorry, was this news post not enough? I thought I would give you a post full of actual news, rather than eye candy. But hey, if you don't like it, I can take it down and put up something with pretty pictures. :bow:

Oh, and if you think that the 'open beta' is going to be a bug-ridden piece of junk, you've got another thing coming. Our goal is to have half of all the units we'll be making in the game by the time the open beta is released. This is 250 units. I think you'll enjoy it ~;)

well, i won't enjoy it at all, because i'm not going to play the beta. has nothing to do with bugginess or whatnot, i just want the full, new experience of a finished EB. i can wait.

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Originally Posted by khelvan

I'm just having a bit of fun with you guys.

Sorry, was this news post not enough? I thought I would give you a post full of actual news, rather than eye candy. But hey, if you don't like it, I can take it down and put up something with pretty pictures. :bow:

Oh, and if you think that the 'open beta' is going to be a bug-ridden piece of junk, you've got another thing coming. Our goal is to have half of all the units we'll be making in the game by the time the open beta is released. This is 250 units. I think you'll enjoy it ~;)

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:jawdrop: Can't wait!

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Originally Posted by Khelvan

I'm quite surprised we don't have people questioning us on anything else. After so many of you complained that we were having a closed beta, and shutting down most discussions, I expected more coments about things, especially the abstract Rome. No more tough questions? What happened to the forum dwellers who correct every little thing we do??

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You must be doing SOMETHING right. ~;)


Most of these things look good on paper (screen? whatever...). Guess you´re just gonna have to sign me up for the Beta to see if it´s any good... ~;)

This mod makes Rome TW look like a two-year old's game!

yeah, let's see if you can go work for CA instead of the very creators of the game. and i support the era system

Great news Kelvan!!! but no pictures......... ?! :bigcry: :bigcry:

Jeez guys. Pictures are nice, but you guys will actually get to play it in a little bit. Of course I get to play it now, but... ~;) Besides, you will should see a bunch more stuff as we get ready for the open beta.

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No more tough questions? What happened to the forum dwellers who correct every little thing we do?? ~D

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Don't worry boss, they'll be here. ~D

Seriously guys, ask questions. I can only answer stuff on the steppe factions, but we can now answer more of your questions than before.
And what Khelvan said about the beta is correct. No bugs will be present. Even our internal versions have no bugs, and are corrected quite quickly.

wow, looking forward too it. looks like my rome question is answerd. but I still got a question, how will the elite-thingy be handled? upkeep costs of astronomical heights? or just a limited per army? or how?

Primarily through costs, and high building requirments.

I'm still following your work. Keep it up. You have the support of many silent observers.

ok, thnx
next question: since onager and heavy onagers are (finally) removed. what will be placed in stead? 10 variations of the ballista? greek repeating ballista, scorpion, oxybeles etc. but what else? any large bows without the sinews?

EDIT: me again, another question about formations. are they going to be changed ( teh group formation thingy) into like: penta/circular box, or the echelon or a wedge of units.

wich reminds me, I read a lot about the echelon, in 'clash of teh generals' on discorvery one used teh echelon. and I heard Alexander did it too at gaugamela ( i think). and the romans did it to counter the phalanx.
but what does it do? and how can I use it?

I understand you will keep the 3 roman faction system(at least for the beta). I was wondering how will you adress the historical balance issue . I mean being 3 different factions they will each fight another enemy and to avoid extermination they will each have to match it in strength. I think esp. about Carthage. They come in contact with the ex-Scipii.This will mean full Carthaginian army vs. 1/3 of roman forces. If the armies had their historical strengths(it took almost every roman soldier to defeat Carthage, esp. during the second punic war) this faction is a certain victim.If the armies of Rome were beefed up so that each faction can fight it's enemy on their own, you'd get a much stronger Rome than in reality.
So I bring to your attention the following idea(has been posted before around here but I assume you guys are too busy to go through each and every post on this forum):Unite the roman factions and keep the Senate. This way you will not be able to implement the roman internal wars, but the way I see it, EB's goal is to recreate the military and 'political' situation of around 270 B.C. and then develop into an 'alternate history' under the player's control.And in that period Rome was united.

No solution that removes any of the Roman factions will be considered. It introduces bugs to the system. This policy of no bugs entering the game mechanics are why we can avoid problems that we have heard happening in other places such as very long AI turns, rebels being elected to the Senate, CTD bugs, and similar things. I will repeat it again, and the answer will never change. We will not consider a solution that introduces known bugs to the system, and has any number of unintended consequences elsewhere.

Now, on balance, there are various ways to make Rome's strength appear in one place. Such as giving two of the Roman factions one province each and no desire to expand, and make the third faction expansionistic. This neither makes Rome too fast to expand, nor splits its strength.

There will be much variety in the siege weapons, have no fear. You want something without sinews? You guys want nice pictures? Here, try this:

http://img150.exs.cx/img150/8030/19pl.jpg

I'd like to see the 2-weak 1-strong system. This would mean one faction could be beefed up enough to fight, say, Carthage, but the other two wouldn't be simultaneously expanding. Or you could make the two weak ones start out in some far away province surrounded by enemies who always quickly eterminate them. Or some sort of island, way far out where noone would ever see it, and make them unable to build ships. I call in the Rome unified/exiled system.

If you do decide to leave the two small factions in Italy, I think you should consider making them a slightly different shades of red, along with the main rome faction.

On the beta- I'm glad you guys are going the open beta route. A few questions, though:
Will all the new factions be implemented?

What percentage of units will be done for each faction? Will some factions (like rome) have more of their unit list complete than others?

Why didn't you guys post any screenshots?!? It's not like it'd kill ya. ~;)

Are you guys considering giving elite units long build times instead of just ramping up their cost?

Crazed Rabbit.

Wow, first post about this mod, even though I have followed it sense its very start.

With the new unit cost, will there be a shift to raising armies only when they are needed, instead of now in CA's version where you can maintain huge stacks that just sit around? And if there is a shift, will mercenaries play a bigger role with the AI and Human armies due to the need for troops very fast?

Hi i wonder how Forts and watchtowers will work in EB?

Better :)

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Originally Posted by ColdKnight

With the new unit cost, will there be a shift to raising armies only when they are needed, instead of now in CA's version where you can maintain huge stacks that just sit around? And if there is a shift, will mercenaries play a bigger role with the AI and Human armies due to the need for troops very fast?

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Mercenaries will likely play a bigger role, due to their availability. Raising units will not be as easy as it was. This is not due to build times, but simple availability in terms of area.

We are planning on having a faction be able to support a given number of troops on a per province ratio. This will be the standing army. Creating larger armies will quickly bankrupt the player if they are not disbanded quickly, or they don't do their job of taking new territories.

Elite units will in some cases take longer to build than lesser troops, but the difference is not measured in years. However, this is taken on a unit by unit basis, and faction by faction. Different cultures gathered, equipped, and trained troops in various ways.

Forts and watchtowers - we can make them look better, but we can't change their function.

Unit completion - we aim for 50% of all units (aboug 250) to be done by mid-April, when we aim to release the open beta. Faction rosters will be fleshed out before regionals and rebels, for the most part. *

We are prioritizing units based on holes in faction rosters, and the ability to share the new model with other units (thus fleshing out other rosters as well). All new factions will be in 0.5, much less the open beta. Most of the back-end systems will be in the beta, though one of the purposes of the beta is to pound hard on them to see how they work over the long term with a large number of players. The beta will lack, mostly, the bells and whistles of the finished product, like voices, graphics, some music, that sort of thing.

* Note: All dates provided are very rough estimates, and not intended as a predictor of any sort. EB reserves the right to adjust this date based on our own schedules, real life interruptions, bugs encountered, whimsical musings, or for any damn reason we please. Complaints that we have not met an expected date will fall on deaf ears, and will likely result in derision and ridicule.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Why didn't you guys post any screenshots?!? It's not like it'd kill ya. ~;)

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This must be humor, but my joke-ometer isn't registering anything. ~:)

I'll tell ya what, I'll make sure that next week the news post is full of new faction descriptions, unit descriptions, building descriptions, and other fun stuff, instead of more silly screen shots. The historians among us have been on my case as to why I don't show that sort of thing more often. So, are you guys all about eye candy, or do you like to exercise your brains as well? ~D

Wow, great stuff guys. I especially like the idea of eras, something I have really missed from Medieval, the campaigns were often a lot different. Any clues on when the eras will be set and what they will contain?

What in Heaven´s name is THAT?! ~:eek:

Never seen that kind of siege engine before...

will the diversity of mercenary troops be improved? Vanillas rather paltry amount of mercenary units allways bothered me. i hated only being able to hire rubbish barbarian mercenaries when i know that ancient generals like hannibal etc. was able to recruit some of the hardiest warriors from iberia and gaul into his armies.

Mercenaries - you better believe it. In general, troops that were widely used in various armies (Cretan archers, Balearic & Rhodian slingers, as an example) will be available as regional recruitment in very small areas to reflect subjugation (by those factions that would raise native units, given the appropriate government type chosen for that province) and in a wider area as mercenaries to reflect their mercenary activity.

The siege engine - I know there are a ton of guys asking for diversity in siege weaponry. I'm surprised no one has told you what that one is. Well, I'll let you guys guess.

this is great! thanks for opening some stuff up finally!

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Originally Posted by Khelvan

The siege engine - I know there are a ton of guys asking for diversity in siege weaponry. I'm surprised no one has told you what that one is. Well, I'll let you guys guess.

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I hate it when you do that. *goes and starts yahoo*




I can see how it works....

http://img77.exs.cx/img77/2219/19pl28dg.jpg

1- Rope applies tension to the beam
2- Mechanism is released, the beam returns to its original position
3- The beam hits the missiles, and they are fired horizontaly

But what´s it called?

Excuse me for being an ignoramus, but what is a beta?

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Originally Posted by Sarcasm

But what´s it called?

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I'll give you a hint, its name sounds kind of like a vegetable. (in English, at least)

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Originally Posted by Ignoramus

Excuse me for being an ignoramus, but what is a beta?

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A "beta test" is jargon for a version of software being tested by non-developers. In other words, a test done by people outside the group that made the software. This generally follows an "alpha test," a phase during which testing is done internally. You can expect to see a non-complete version of EB, though we will do our best to keep to our usual standard of quality - as few bugs as possible, for instance.

Essentially, open beta tests are done so that people get the enjoyment of at least parts of the finished product, though understanding that it is in fact not finished, so bugs will be expected. Testers have nothing to complain about when running into a bug (as opposed to a version termed "production," if we were to not call it a test version) as they are agreeing implicitly to help us test for bugs, among other things.

"Alpha" and "Beta" have different meanings for different people. In short, you can play it, but you do it with the knowledge that it isn't as good as the finished product will be, and you may run into bugs (though you likely will not given our standard of quality).

BETA is kind of an unfinished testing version of software, but bordering the final stages. ALPHAS on the other hand are much more unfinished, a working version of the initial stages of development.

lets guess.... how about a labbage or a bocoli or maybe a lurnip?

A vegetable......right.








It´s gonna be a long night.

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Originally Posted by Sarcasm

A vegetable......right.
It´s gonna be a long night.

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There's been an excellent guess already though! :lipsrsealed:

This mod sounds interesting, I know a guy at the forum where I usually post who has been pimping the EB mod for months~D

But two questions, the first just curiosity the second more important

1) Will barbarian factions get decent walls?, that is walls on which troops can be stationed during a siege?

2)I'm assuming this mod will be a monster in size, how large (guestimate if you will) is it going to be?, I'm assuming it will be hundreds of megabytes at least

And if it is in fact huge would it be possible for you guys to break it up into a few sections for those of us without access to broadband?

Will it also be self executable? (I suppose thats three questions)

I'm speaking of the finished product here not the beta.

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Originally Posted by Es Arkajae

2)I'm assuming this mod will be a monster in size, how large (guestimate if you will) is it going to be?, I'm assuming it will be hundreds of megabytes at least

And if it is in fact huge would it be possible for you guys to break it up into a few sections for those of us without access to broadband?

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Maybe we could make the VoiceMod and MusicMod in a separate sound package? Cause those mp3s are gonna add a huge amount to the download and some people might want to do without them so they don't wait days to d/l the game (although I don't have that problem ~D ). You are already going to do a patch for the naked barbarian fetishists in the audience so you can just do the music as another patch, right?

Where appropriate, the barbarian factions will get better walls. Each faction will have differences, so I'd be wary of saying ALL will. But, Gauls for example, had dirt-and-wood oppida, as well as large braced stone walls that would look similar to Roman or Greek walls, and they'll likely be able to get them.

That siege engine...I'm very sceptical about it...

I can not see how it would work effectively at all I'm afraid to say. Sarcasm's diagram, although the most logical approach, simply could not fire those bolts any meaningful distance. If they are 'fired' by that beam hitting them then because the force applied to each bolt is only istantaneous (the beam only hits the bolts at one place - it doesn't even follow through), not continuous like a bow, an because the bolts are stationary at the point of impact, they will surely just drop to the ground? If you try it with a pencil and a ruler (pretty crude, and not quite the same I know) it does exactly this. One'd need a gigantic force to lauch those bolts and physics tells me that they still wouldn't fly very far or very straight...

If someone could enlighten me to the mechanisms and physics of this contraption I'd be most grateful. ~:handball:

Otherwise I'm pleased to see how well this mod is taking shape, it might just rekindle my interest in RTW.

That thing existed for real, and it worked. Not very effective, as you say - short distance, low accuracy - but it worked.

ok, looks great. but what is the use if it is short ranged and not very effective and fires regular arrows ( looks like it) than you'll be better of with regular archers. The device will probably ahve a high upkeep since it can't last long: two wooden beams clashing in to each other.

EDIT: asking for featuring of: cheiroballistaor gastraphetes, greek repeating ballista ( i know romans didn't have em, but greeks did have something like a repeating scorpion, but only at some points)

guesss it is a barbaric siege engine ( gaul or germanic or briton or dacian) since greeks and romans already knew how to do it better. again, not saying barbarians were barbaric but greeks and romans just knew math.

Greetings once again EB crew. And thank you, once again, for your hard work and dedication to this challenging and noble effort. You should be recognized as you are: true and loyal fans to the franchise as well as leaders in modding.

That said and deserved Kudos aside, I have a few brief questions:

1) Do you have a written manual or guide in the works? If not, I would like to recommend that you pursue the effort, and offer it at a price. With print-on-demand, you can publish high quality manuals or books at minimal cost. Whether you decide to seek a small profit for your work is your own choice of course. An accompanying manual would certainly serve to support the educational aspect of your project. I would have no problem paying for such a thing, and I am sure that I am not alone. Hell, I would even work on it myself but for a 55 hour work week and 20+ hours of university study per week (I barely have time for this board, gaming, or my marriage).

2) How difficult will this be to install and uninstall?

3) How large will the download be?

Warmest Regards,

Divinus Arma

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

There's been an excellent guess already though!

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What do you mean? Cabbage? Brocoli? A turnip?

C´mon fess it up! :whip:

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Originally Posted by khelvan

given the appropriate government type chosen for that province

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Please elaborate. We get to choose a government TYPE? If so, then HOLY S.

Not really. I'll let Khelvan explain...

Whomever. I look forward to it. I won't even speculate.

Regards

Merc, man...I´m acking here! ~D

What´s that thing called?

Governments - each faction will have choices to make when taking over provinces. These choices reflect how the faction interacts with the people they have conquered, and in some instances the land and resources. For instance, the steppe people will have to choose between a nomadic or agricultural infrastructure, and this will affect the type of troops they can raise and the bonuses and such from the economy and people. The Celts will probably have a choice of four types of government - Directly controlled by a king (subjugated - homelands only), controlled by an installed noble (subjugated, different bonuses/penalties), controlled by an indigenous leader (client), or controlled by a religious leader (assimilated).

As you can see there will be considerable variety between factions. Furthermore, if there is some suggestion you have along these lines for individual factions, we are happy to consider it.

Ok, ok, I won't torture you anymore. It is a bricoli, and while it may look like it isn't very powerful, such devices were more powerful than an arrow and often used for killing mounts. You don't get a sense of scale with these pictures.

The production release will be a fully-automated install. I am not sure about the open beta yet. The size of the open beta will likely be in the neighborhood of 500MB.

I cannot currently forsee anything "sold," as that brings very real legal issues. We may offer a written manual for download. Certainly the mod will require documentation.

Khelvan, you are a beautiful human-being.




What will be the difference between the closed BETA and the open BETA?

You folks are freaking geniuses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cannot even believe this... Installed nobles? Client states? You are capable of making changes this drastic?

Wait... I think I may have grasped how you can pull this off. It's the religious buildings right? You guys must be converting those to manipulate each state!

YOU ARE FREAKING GENIUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I still can't believe it...







FREAKING GENIUSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Brilliant I tell you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been reduced to a shell of a man. I am giddy. Giddy I tell you. Every fiber of my military bearing and personal dignity has fled from my body.

Someone call the Paramedics......

It is an abstract. I mean it is just a building that enables the building of other buildings, the recruitment of certain types of units, and certain bonuses or penalties. We can't change the UI or anything on a per-province basis. This really isn't a revolutionary concept. The nice thing about the building system is that it is one of the few things that we can really make adjustments to.

The beta test will be open. In the future we will have closed betas for new versions. But we figured that you guys would want to get your hands on what we've done so far. I guarantee that it will be better than vanilla RTW.

i cant believe how close i was on the name..

If you want a bit of an expansion on the government idea, it was thought of because not every factions' government is the exact same. Celts DID form cognizant countries (or, at least what we recognize as countries). But, the actual 'country' would be relatively small. However, a Celtic king would control MORE than that country, through military alliances, political wrangling, getting nobles installed who are friendly to the king, and religion. The government types are expanded though, with unique types of government for different factions, like the Romans and their ability to control, and then Romanize a province. Celts don't really 'Celticize' a province (and really don't have to most of the time anyway, 80% of Europe is Celtic or close to it, and they will purposely have trouble expanding into the near east and Africa, though the clerical noble will be closest to Celticization). Their governments won't be unbalancing. In fact, one of the 'best' bonuses, from a military aspect, makes the province very prone to rebellion (client) and low population, because it is relatively indepedent, but because of that, in concept it wages small scale 'clan wars', which give units raised from them extra experience. Every government aspect offers appropriate bonuses and penalties to realistically portray the chaotic form of government outside of those areas directly under the control of the Celtic king.

ok, and the engine?

~:confused: Engine?

You people are geniouses (sp?),
They should ask for your help for TW4,
anyway, good luck on your release,
I salute you,
three years of dedicated work.

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Originally Posted by khelvan

It is an abstract. I mean it is just a building that enables the building of other buildings, the recruitment of certain types of units, and certain bonuses or penalties. We can't change the UI or anything on a per-province basis. This really isn't a revolutionary concept. The nice thing about the building system is that it is one of the few things that we can really make adjustments to.

The beta test will be open. In the future we will have closed betas for new versions. But we figured that you guys would want to get your hands on what we've done so far. I guarantee that it will be better than vanilla RTW.

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I am VERY interested! Two questions
1) How are you going to distribute it? 500 MB is a heck of a download.

2) How long have you guys been working on this? RTW is my first experience in playing modded games, so this is pretty mind blowing!

Some of us, including me, were working on this before the demo even came out! Most of it was of course just visualizing, and only recently was any work really done.

I have to say, this does look very promising.

hmm looks very promising, I bet theres lots of people thats just looking on, but supporting =)

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Originally Posted by khelvan

Governments - each faction will have choices to make when taking over provinces. These choices reflect how the faction interacts with the people they have conquered, and in some instances the land and resources. For instance, the steppe people will have to choose between a nomadic or agricultural infrastructure, and this will affect the type of troops they can raise and the bonuses and such from the economy and people. The Celts will probably have a choice of four types of government - Directly controlled by a king (subjugated - homelands only), controlled by an installed noble (subjugated, different bonuses/penalties), controlled by an indigenous leader (client), or controlled by a religious leader (assimilated).

As you can see there will be considerable variety between factions. Furthermore, if there is some suggestion you have along these lines for individual factions, we are happy to consider it.

Ok, ok, I won't torture you anymore. It is a bricoli, and while it may look like it isn't very powerful, such devices were more powerful than an arrow and often used for killing mounts. You don't get a sense of scale with these pictures.

The production release will be a fully-automated install. I am not sure about the open beta yet. The size of the open beta will likely be in the neighborhood of 500MB.

I cannot currently forsee anything "sold," as that brings very real legal issues. We may offer a written manual for download. Certainly the mod will require documentation.

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If you do decide to charge for the mod, I want royalties. ~;) j/k

Concerning the bricoli, I wonder if you don't have the bolts oriented the wrong way. I mean, the lever won't hit any of the bolts at a right angle except the topmost one. Imagine hitting a nail with a hammer at the wrong angle and you'll understand what I am getting at here.
It would make more sense to me if the bolts were lined up horizontally, hit by a large head on the end of the lever, similar to the head on a golf driver. Launching a horizontal barrage would also seem to make more practical military sense as well.
Just trying to help.

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Originally Posted by khelvan

Rome

Until such time where a unified Rome solution that is proven to be bug/nuisance-free exists, EB will continue to search for a solution that includes three Roman factions. Our previous implementation included Optimates, Populares, and Socii. These were abstracts, where the 'leaders' of these factions represented influential members of the particular political group within the Senate, and not an actual political leader. So the Populares faction leader was not actually the political leader of the "Populares" group in the Senate.

Since then we have gone through other ideas. The three factions may be called "Army Groups," or Proconsulates, or Consulates, or two of an above choice and the Socii. Our current implementation in 0.5 is going to be a test of a complete abstract - Dominium Romanum Borealis, Dominium Romanum Australe, and Dominium Romanum Orientalis. These represent, simply, an arbitrary, abstract breakdown of Rome's provincial holdings. Comments are welcome.

Should we continue with this sort of faction division, the Senate seats will be greatly adjusted, for both number and effect.

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I too have been quietly following this project, and it's nice to finally see the EB kimono open up a tad. ~:eek: The lead post was most informative, and it seems the team has a great handle on almost every aspect of the mod - except the conundrum of what to do with tri-partite Rome. Your three choices to date seem to have been political parties, social classes, and now geographic expansion zones. For a group with so many historians, I can see why the EB Team would be eager to cast aside the "three families" pablum offered by vanilla RTW, but the alternatives look pretty unappetizing. Aside from the brief era of triumvirates during the end-of-republic times, most of Rome's history has been more dualist than anything - exemplifed by the twin founders (Romulus/Remus), the annual power sharing between two consuls, and the fundamental Patrician/Plebeian divide. But even this doesn't carry over to a game which insists on three permanent factions whose sole raison d'etre is to expand geographically. There's just nothing historic about that! So I empathise with what must be a sisyphean task. :dizzy2:

So. In the spirit of no boundaries, no preconceived notions, pure Brainstormery (sic), lets look at some other options - not all of them new or original (and by all means, don't be gentle in your critiques):

1) Another group of factions gets the Senate: I've seen this discussed in many other threads, so the concept isn't new. And maybe there's a fundamental hardcoding which prevents alteration. But if not, the idea of a Council governing the Gallic tribes or the Greek Factions has more historical relevance than the way in which the current model constrains Rome.

2) Two weak factions, one strong: That appeared elsewhere in this thread, and may reflect current EB Team thinking. It has the benefit of preventing the unified Rome bugs that are paramount in your thinking ("first, do no harm"), but there's an air of artificiality about this too. Definitely worth fleshing out a bit, though.

3) Etruscans/Romans/Samnites: This might be a problem if you implement the "three era's" concept, but otherwise it offers an intriguing way to spice up the opening phase of the game. Here's how it would work: The game begins with the "Civil War" already under way, except it's not really that. The Senate has outlawed the Etruscans and Samnites, meaning that Rome begins the game at war with both (this may not be pure historic truth, but Rome was in more or less perpetual war with it's neighbors throughout it's formative years). The struggle for Italy consumed Rome's early history, and now you can simulate that, AND do away with the artificial "three factions" constraint. This also offers players the option of selecting a "Roman" faction (i.e. Etruscan or Samnite) that is fundamentally different from the existing "me-too" factions. A little spice is nice, plus it fulfills the dreams of those "what-iffers" who wonder what a non-Roman Ancient Italy would have looked like. Of course there's one major question - can you open the game with the Civil War underway? And if not, can it be "worked around" to achieve the same (or similar) result?

4) Romans and 2 Native Italian factions: A more detailed variant of concept #2, but the basic premise is to cripple the Italians so they can't be succesfull in expanding beyond Italy, leaving the "Romans" as the only ones who can build an empire outside the "boot". Ideally, you would have something akin to three Senate factions who maintain the kinds of tough armies that would hinder those seeking to invade Italy, while staying contentedly home until the Civil War, at which time they become a real pain - but only within Italy. This means the Civil War would be confined to a small number of intense, painful battles, locally confined. As opposed to the current ahistorical "World Wars" (yes, many - maybe even most - Civil War battles were fought outside Italy. However, they tended to be few in number and usually involved the faction leaders, and loss of the battle often meant loss of the war - none of which is currently true).

5) Senate = Religion: This is just wayyyyyyy out there, but would it be possible to take all the senate missions and pronouncements and give them a religious twist? So instead of pleasing the People or the Senate, the goal would be to increase the level of Divine Approval (maybe two jealous gods must be equally propitiated). I haven't even begun to think this one through, but it's pretty "outside the box", and might enable a different approach to the three faction problem.

Well, just some food for thought, and certainly I invite others to toss in ideas of their own. It sounds like a great mod, and my congratulations to the EB team for their already impressive list of accomplishments.

Personally, I tend to favor the "two consular armies" idea, with the third faction being Socii. But that's just me. Crippling a faction so that it won't expand outside of the peninsula is rather easy, actually.

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Originally Posted by khelvan

Personally, I tend to favor the "two consular armies" idea, with the third faction being Socii. But that's just me. Crippling a faction so that it won't expand outside of the peninsula is rather easy, actually.

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What about the role of families? You still have fathers passing the office on to their relatives, plus there's the issue of "conquest permanence" - lands captured by Consul #1 always remain under the control of Consul #1, and his family. So it seem that all you've done is to remove the name of the family, while retaining all the other ahistorical features.

We will have "family members" with surnames that do not match, and can change the text associated with faction leader advancement and the UI around the "family tree" to describe something different. Of course we will still have people being born, but the text at least will be different.

We're also examining how we can, if possible, have the Senate demand land from the factions under its control.

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Originally Posted by Kull

What about the role of families? You still have fathers passing the office on to their relatives, plus there's the issue of "conquest permanence" - lands captured by Consul #1 always remain under the control of Consul #1, and his family. So it seem that all you've done is to remove the name of the family, while retaining all the other ahistorical features.

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Exactly! You tell them, Kull :)

(this has been a sneak peek into internal struggles of EB team ;)

Kull,

Great brainstorming. I particularly like suggestions #3 and #4.

They seem really good ways to handle the inherent 3 families mechanic, if it is possible to go to war with these other factions?

Cheers,

Hunter

My preference goes to use the roman slots for the Gaulish factions, with an unified Rome. The Gauls were seperated in a few major tribes led by high kings, who ruled over all the other tribes. The Arveni, the Aedui, the Veneti and the Belgae spring to mind.

Another similar solution is to carry the romans over to Greece, were they take the place of Athens, Sparta, Corinth, and Epirus. This makes Greece the powerhouse it was, though divided and tiny.

In both plans I'd advise to start the civil war immidiately, or to let the Senate be taken out as fast as possible.

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Originally Posted by eadingas

(this has been a sneak peek into internal struggles of EB team ;)

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And not having been a part of those struggles, I'll make every effort to avoid criticizing that of which I know not! ~;)

But it does seem as if the EB Team has been very successful in weeding out most of the blatantly ahistorical aspects of RTW. And further, they have sought to stretch the limits of the game wherever possible. So I would just encourage the team to take a VERY hard look at ALL the possible alternatives to a tri-partite Rome. Your reach has been impressive, the existing achievements and insights likewise - so why not "go the last mile" and seek for a truly revolutionary solution to this conundrum?

You know what you want - a bug free, un-Senatized, unified Rome - so go ahead, reach for that star! :charge:

If there are 3 roman factions and senate, they conquer vast area too easily and too soon. When I have played un-modded RTW with non-Roman faction, I have seen Romans to conquer whole Western Europe and Africa before 200 BC.

Exactly, they expand far too quickly.

I think Kull's idea #3 is excellent, as the Senate would continue to exist, but instead of starting in the Civil War, you could just bind SPQR and one faction (Romans, Roman armies, or named something like that, I'm not a historian), although I'm not sure that the two spaces could be used (as far as I remember, someone mentioned that the Roman factions cannot be replaced, only removed), if they cannot, it would still leave the Romans in a bit more historical place, as they would be forced to expand more slowly, although two factions would be lost.

The Senate-1 Roman faction would be a possible solution to removing the three houses, but I'm not sure how it would perform at the point of the Civil War (as there are no other Roman factions to fight). I suppose that a way to test it is to beef up (using text-editing only) the other factions and have them eliminate the Scipii and Julii, while the Brutii stand and watch (as the computer rarely uses ships to transport armies), then restore the stats to their previous form and fight off the invaders (and hopefully save the Senate), then proceed to the Civil War and see what happens.