Most Ridiculous/Hated unit

What unit to you most dread to face on the field? Does this unit behave as it should historically?

I figured I would ask because I was storming a Seluecid city the other day with about 10 platoons of Armoured Hoplites. I figured in-city fighting would make the enemy's chariots inneffective. Wrong-o! Not only did the scythed chariots plow straight through a concentrated phalanx, I watched one of them wading through my men like he was invincible. I was so disgusted I reloaded the game and decided to starve the buggers out.

Why do these scythed chariots get 4 damn hit points?? And why are they effective on all terrains?

Dogs, I hate dogs.
I mean the doggie units in RTW, not the real dogs ~D

Most definitely dogs.Their entire behaviour and effect defies logic, especially when they become separated from their handlers.
Even when the labels "Dead","Routing","This unit has left the field" appear they're still tearing chunks out of my men, who seem oblivious to their presence and only aware of their handlers.
Post 1.2 Spain seems to be one huge kennels, armies of over 50% canine composition being common, !00% on a couple of memorable occasions. I don't bother trying to conquer it as I seem to eventually be overwhelmed by dogs when besieged. The way they can stream unchecked through a destroyed gate is farcical.

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Originally Posted by Titus Livius

What unit to you most dread to face on the field? Does this unit behave as it should historically?

I figured I would ask because I was storming a Seluecid city the other day with about 10 platoons of Armoured Hoplites. I figured in-city fighting would make the enemy's chariots inneffective. Wrong-o! Not only did the scythed chariots plow straight through a concentrated phalanx, I watched one of them wading through my men like he was invincible. I was so disgusted I reloaded the game and decided to starve the buggers out.

Why do these scythed chariots get 4 damn hit points?? And why are they effective on all terrains?

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only the horses get 4 DAMN hitpoints the rider only one

My most hated unit is the AI general. Charging into spears and getting killed even though you outnumber the enemy isn't exactly a sign that the man in question is a good general.

All chariots are a pain in the a_s! Overpowered and just rolls through anything that stands in their way. No way a chariot-charge would go through a 8 row deep phalanx formation in real life. This is one of the main reasons why the Eggys and Brits do so well against their neighbours. I do hope CA patch this or some modder.
Playing v1.2 I still think archers do a bit too well against cavalry. Unprotected and armed with short swords they should really be a snack for any cav, don´t you think?

Druids and screeching women. Yeah right! Maybe there should be an apostles unit.

Most hated Unit:
Definitely Chariots. They can kill cavalry in seconds and drive through massive infantry formations. I think the main problem with them is that their acceleration, manouvrebilaty and max. speed is too hight.

Most ridiculous unit:
Head hurlers

Most Hated Unit -

Pre-1.2 = Desert Axemen with their ridiculously high bare-chested armour rating.

Post-1.2 = Tie: Swarming overpowered overmanned Desert Cavalry and any chariot fielded by any faction under any circumstances. Chariots were outdated by 300 B.C., and for a reason. All you had to do was kill/maim ONE of the horses (a big target for archers, javelineers and spearmen alike) or put a stick through one of the spokes of the chariot cart wheels, and chariots would wreck all over the place. Ever seen "Ben Hur"? Plus, chariots were virtually useless on anything but flat, open ground. Honorable Mention: anything else in the Egyptian order of battle.

Most Ridiculous Unit -

Tie: War Dogs (come ON, and ENTIRE UNIT of DOGS?) and Head Hurlers (no comment necessary).

Egyptian generals. During my Seleucid campaign I've absolutely, positively learned to HATE them. Not only are they chariots, or generals. The bastards are BOTH at once, and even that's not enough; they just HAD to be made mobile missile units too! :bomb:

I don't particularly hate any unit, but I haven't been against the "overpowered" Egyptians yet..

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Originally Posted by PseRamesses

All chariots are a pain in the a_s! Overpowered and just rolls through anything that stands in their way. No way a chariot-charge would go through a 8 row deep phalanx formation in real life. This is one of the main reasons why the Eggys and Brits do so well against their neighbours. I do hope CA patch this or some modder.
Playing v1.2 I still think archers do a bit too well against cavalry. Unprotected and armed with short swords they should really be a snack for any cav, don´t you think?

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Agreed. I remember one time I was fighting rebels, and I had my general charge into a group of slingers. I figured they'd be a pushover. A few seconds later, after THEY had charged ME, my general was killed and most of his cavalry massacred. Always good for a laugh.

I hate those anachronistic egyptian units in RTW.

I haven't fought any chariots yet. But after trying them in custom, it seems like the AI is able to better control them than the player. I find them the be slow, clunky, and hard to manouver compared to cavalry. I'm kinda worried now about this full stack british army in my Julii campaign.

But, also, I read somewhere that Carthage used chariots in the Punic Wars, specifically the battle of Zama. I'm not familiar with Carthage vs. Rome so someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Maxentius

Chariots - After trying them in custom, it seems like the AI is able to better control them than the player.

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I think I can control chariots better than the AI; it just takes practice.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Maxentius

I haven't fought any chariots yet. But after trying them in custom, it seems like the AI is able to better control them than the player. I find them the be slow, clunky, and hard to manouver compared to cavalry. I'm kinda worried now about this full stack british army in my Julii campaign.

But, also, I read somewhere that Carthage used chariots in the Punic Wars, specifically the battle of Zama. I'm not familiar with Carthage vs. Rome so someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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Watch out for those British chariots! Make sure you have plenty of artillery and/or archers (set on flaming arrows) and/or spearmen to deal with them.

I have never read an account of the battle of Zama that indicates that the Carthaginians used chariots. War elephants, yes, and horse cavalry, certainly, but not chariots. Where did you read this, I would be interested to find out if I have been mistaken all these years?

Egyptian Desert Cav, if a few units together hit you they pretty much go right through, even my light cav(des cav get bonus against armoured cav) dont stand any chance, also their standard unit size is bigger than everyone elses!!!!!

Chariots are best dealt with through massed missiles with a cheap but large meatshield in the front. The meatshield doesn't have to necessarily beat them, just stop them for long enough for archers to do their work.

Flaming arrows can be good for scaring the chariots off into amok mode and is useful for armor piercing. The scythe chariots, for example, have surprisingly high armor.

i'm playing a modified game.

1 no chariots exept the british
2 historical eggy's
3 no head hurlers
4 no druids and screeching women
5 no praetorian cavalry
6 whole bunch of new skins and new units

and
1 carthage is very strong
2 just as armenia

but

1 egypt is still very strong but not overpowered

The Egyptians are very annoying, I remember the first time I went up against them, with a veteran army fresh from plundering carthage, against one unit of desert axemen (v1.1), I almost lost...

Maybe they would be less annoying if they didn't conquer have the mediterranean, it makes for a boring game sometimes.

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Originally Posted by PseRamesses

All chariots are a pain in the a_s! Overpowered and just rolls through anything that stands in their way. No way a chariot-charge would go through a 8 row deep phalanx formation in real life. This is one of the main reasons why the Eggys and Brits do so well against their neighbours. I do hope CA patch this or some modder.
Playing v1.2 I still think archers do a bit too well against cavalry. Unprotected and armed with short swords they should really be a snack for any cav, don´t you think?

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Chariots are easy to beat. Scythed ones: flaming arrows and/or flaming art until they run amok, which they do quickly. Non-scythed close combat ones: kill with prolonged arrow fire, one or two volleys of skirmisher javelins, or cavalry to their rear. Chariot archers: kill with arrows and finish them off with cavalry. They're ridiculously weak if you can catch up with them, especially if you charge their rear (which is often the case because they try to skirmish and then turn their back towards the hunter). I don't see why people still complain so much about chariots, once you've figured out these things they're a piece of cake. Besides, there's also the tactic of letting them through your lines and killing them behind. Not well implemented in the engine as you have no function to make your men step aside, but casualties are low in the first chariot charge and you just need to charge some cavalry or other reserves you had behind the line into the slowed down chariots behind and they rout instantly (sometimes back through their own men). Only thing to watch out for is morale penalty for your units when you let the chariots pass through your lines and give casualties.

My most hated unit: urban cohort. They beat phalanx in front to front charge, and don't rout until they've been killed to 95 percent AND are surrounded by 10 phalanx units and 10 cathapract units. I might be exaggerating a little, but unfortunately not much. Another hated unit is the praetorian cavalry - very unrealistc with roman cavalry that can easily beat cathapracts. I also dislike egypt, their entire unit rooster, due to unrealism. They're very good fighters though if you command them yourself, but they belong in another time period than that of the game.

Head hurlers are also unrealistic, but I usually play with zoom out and they're equivalent to slingers in power and range (I think?), so I just pretend they're slingers when I play. Druids might not be nice, but without them gaul wouldn't be a challenge at all to conquer later in the game. I'd support removing both head hurlers and druids, but with replacements to keep the poor factions from getting too weak... Britain without head hurlers or replacement would be easy to battle - kill half the army from a distance then they'll charge and then you kill the rest easily. Gaul without druids would be - charge one flank with 3-4 cavalry units and then move inwards until 2-3 units have routed, then the entire army routs. Make sure to have plenty of light cavalry to kill the routing units.

than mod roman cavalry size down or mod their stats. your complaining but it's easy to fix

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Originally Posted by Count Belisarius

I have never read an account of the battle of Zama that indicates that the Carthaginians used chariots. War elephants, yes, and horse cavalry, certainly, but not chariots. Where did you read this, I would be interested to find out if I have been mistaken all these years?

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Hannibal had lots of Numidian cavalry and elephants at Zama, but no chariots that I'm aware of either.

However, the Romans did have to face Seleucid chariots at Magnesia 12 years later. Perhaps this is the source of the confusion.

I recommend reading Roman Warfare by Adrian Goldsworthy for more on this.

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Originally Posted by katank

Chariots are best dealt with through massed missiles with a cheap but large meatshield in the front. The meatshield doesn't have to necessarily beat them, just stop them for long enough for archers to do their work.

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I've noticed this works nicely when in the open field. And you'll notice that Heavy Peltasts, one of my favorite units in the game, have bonuses against both chariots and elephants.

I think i hate archers the most and the archer chariots, it makes me not want even bother fighting Egypt.

I'm sure there is a way to beat chariots - elephants.. Hope for merc elephants when you come to them.

Or use the cheat for Yubtseb Elephant mercs.. Type oliphaunt into the cheat thing. Make sure you have a settlement selected when you type this in otherwise it will not work and you will have to reset RTW (cheat can only be entered once) It also helps if you have the army open rather than the buildings (bottom of the screen next to end turn, date, faction stuff etc.)

I think the worse unit in the game is the "Shogun Moderator", with its "Total Denial of Reality" special ability.

Oh, sorry, I think we're getting some cross talk from another thread in here...hello, hello, can you hear me...? :dizzy2: :dizzy2: :dizzy2:

Yeah, my bad. That might have been it. I tried to recreate the battle of magnesia one time. Hannibal was actually an advisor but couldn't do much with the Selucids army. And I just looked up online and it says that Carthage last used chariots around 300 BC, before the time frame of the game.

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Originally Posted by Craterus

I'm sure there is a way to beat chariots - elephants.. Hope for merc elephants when you come to them.

Or use the cheat for Yubtseb Elephant mercs.. Type oliphaunt into the cheat thing. Make sure you have a settlement selected when you type this in otherwise it will not work and you will have to reset RTW (cheat can only be entered once) It also helps if you have the army open rather than the buildings (bottom of the screen next to end turn, date, faction stuff etc.)

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That's right!! Elephants are the very key to neutralize chariots. I've been using two units of war elephants in my Carthaginian campaign, so i can block both flanks... but, of course, egypt also has their pharaoh's bowmen... it gets interesting...


As for the original topic:
Most Ridiculous: I say head hurlers. Any idea of how do they get their ammo???. Arcani have a funny costume too!!

Most hated: This one is harder... i'll go for the Desert cavalry. They are really hard to control, unless you have some serious infantry and you keep them in a very deep formation (7-9 ranks).

Hate: Chariots.

Ridiculous: Screeching women and head hurlers.

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Originally Posted by Count Belisarius

Chariots were outdated by 300 B.C., and for a reason. All you had to do was kill/maim ONE of the horses (a big target for archers, javelineers and spearmen alike) or put a stick through one of the spokes of the chariot cart wheels, and chariots would wreck all over the place. Ever seen "Ben Hur"? Plus, chariots were virtually useless on anything but flat, open ground.

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The Gauls fielded chariots at the battle of Telamon in 225 BC. Mithridates VI of Pontus used scythed chariots in his wars against Rome (1st century BC). Julius Caesar was impressed by the Britons' use of chariots a few years later. Just for the record, the Assyrians kept a "spare" horse loosely tethered to the left of the team puuling the chariot. As the chariot turned after an attack this animal was used to draw enemy fire. If it was hit, the charioteer simply cut it loose and made his getaway. Here endeth the lesson... ~D

My problem with chariots is that (a) the Eastern chariot archers should have a range of 170 as they used powerful composite bows, (b) scythes were never used on Egyptian chariots (except perhaps by the Ptolemies), and (c) British chariots should be armed with javelins rather than bows.

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Originally Posted by vastator

The Gauls fielded chariots at the battle of Telamon in 225 BC. Mithridates VI of Pontus used scythed chariots in his wars against Rome (1st century BC). Julius Caesar was impressed by the Britons' use of chariots a few years later. Just for the record, the Assyrians kept a "spare" horse loosely tethered to the left of the team puuling the chariot. As the chariot turned after an attack this animal was used to draw enemy fire. If it was hit, the charioteer simply cut it loose and made his getaway. Here endeth the lesson... ~D

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Yes, I realize that chariots were used in battle after 300 B.C. The point I was trying to make was that chariots had fallen out of favor with the most militarily-advanced civilizations of the day, because even then most people had recognized the chariot's limitations on the battlefield. Mithridates Eupator may have fielded chariots, but I'm sure you will note that - despite his long career and undoubted resiliency - he repeatedly lost major battles against the Romans : Charonea, Orchomenos, etc. Sulla, Lucullus and Pompey were great generals, granted, but the Pontic chariots were easy meat for "modern" armies. Too, the Gauls lost Telamon on crushing fashion.

Elephants I hate when I come up against them. I have to use about 3-5 units of upgraded foresters on flaming arrows to kill them or make them run amok.

Arcani are just stupid.

i just needed to light Auxilia, to run the eles in amok and let the eles kill their general and some other soldiers

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Originally Posted by Emperor Umeu 1

than mod roman cavalry size down or mod their stats. your complaining but it's easy to fix

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For singleplayer it's easy to fix. If I play an opponent to Rome I don't see why I should bother because it only increases the challenge. But for multiplayer it's impossible to mod myself, because that would result in incompatible game data. All I can do is hope that any mod which addresses these issues becomes so popular that there are enough people interested in playing multiplayer with that mod. RTR, SPQR and EB are possibilities... It would also help to have some IRL friends who play tw games so the time zone problem among others could be sorted out, but most people I meet IRL don't know much about ancient/medieval tactics and aren't the least interested in it. So - no matter how easy to mod, it won't solve the multiplayer issue.

Edit in my post above: I meant it is a greater challenge to keep the overpowered units of your opponents, not the opposite.

oh oke

i hate the immortal egyptian generals
i charged my general + 5 units of praetorian cav. into him, he killes the general on impact and routs the praetorians, loosing only 3 chariots

he was a noob general, mine was 10 star and had on of them traits that gave him more hitpoints.

Chariots and archer chariots

Wardogs are a pain. :embarassed: Fighting elephants and chariots are fun (even if it is tough), but wardogs, they simply chew your units and there's nothing you can do about it.

What I do, if feasible for the occassion, is lure them with cavalry, then I withdraw the the cavalry. The dogs will chase them through the red-line.

:charge:

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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

Another hated unit is the praetorian cavalry - very unrealistc with roman cavalry that can easily beat cathapracts.

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Actually, if you Alt-double right click on the enemy praetorian cavalry while commanding cataphracts, they will eat up their opponent. Reasing being is they switch to their lances when engaged in melee if u hold down the alt button before u attack. Im not sure if cappadocian cavalry do the same but parthian cataphracts will eat praetorians for breakfast. Cataphracts become so powerful they can even take a full unit of urban cohort 1v1 this way. Try it out in custom battle.

nevertheless, I hate cataphracts when the AI controls them. I was playing a custom battle against a parthian army, and a) the cataphracts kept charging into my deepened royal phalanx, and getting killed (though they did take out quite a few of my men) and b) a flank attack into the the cataphracts by companion cavalry is all it takes to crush them. Yuks. In a human opponent's hands, I have no doubt the cataphracts will be more potent.

Hated unit: At the moment, Macedonian Light Lancers. I don't mind them, they're fine. Except when the AI uses stacks of 12+ of these units. And never seems to run out of them. Where the hell do they come from???

No one is saying Horse Archers.

If the AI used Armeniia and Parthia to only field HA, they would be very scary indeed.

Imagine the AI masterfully weaving armies of HA, scattering your forces and killing you slowly.

I'm glad to bitch about chariots, because I'm playing Armenia now, and the plain vanilla HA (upkeep 110) can kill off major infantry based armies without breaking a sweat.

So is it that HA have just been legitimately toned down in 1.2, rather than it being a bug? I tried playing a custom battle as Parthia the other day and my army of HAs and Persian Cavalry caused about 5 casualties!

As for the most hated unit it has to be the Desert Axemen and their ability to sprint through the desert wearing invidible armour (they still have some, don't they, even post-patch?)

Horse Archers in my current experience can wipe out any infantry based army.

Waiting to fight Romans to confirm this.

Not only by arrows only (though this is enough) you can scatter the enemy as they chase you around then gang up in charges that shatter the individual units. I had ot do this against Cataphracts, but it worked very well - especially when you realize how cheap HA are.

The only real problem is an archer heavy enemy army with enough spears to keep you away.

I really hate pharaohs bowmen. Chariots and Egyptian generals I can deal with axemen too, but those goddamn Pharaohs bowmen piss me off.

harun, no one says HA because the total idiot AI can't handle HA they just trow them away.

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Originally Posted by avesta

Actually, if you Alt-double right click on the enemy praetorian cavalry while commanding cataphracts, they will eat up their opponent. Reasing being is they switch to their lances when engaged in melee if u hold down the alt button before u attack. Im not sure if cappadocian cavalry do the same but parthian cataphracts will eat praetorians for breakfast. Cataphracts become so powerful they can even take a full unit of urban cohort 1v1 this way. Try it out in custom battle.

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duh they switch to maces and maces are armour piercing. cappa's have swords swords are not armour piercing

Hated: eggy chariot archers. Learned to dread them when playing greek-style factions.

Ridiculous: flaming pigs, nothing beats flaming pigs (but screeching women tailgate hard ~:) )

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Originally Posted by lars573

I really hate pharaohs bowmen. Chariots and Egyptian generals I can deal with axemen too, but those goddamn Pharaohs bowmen piss me off.

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Amen. In my current war with the Ptolemaids as the Greek Cities I sent 4 platoons of Spartans with some Arab Cavalry to take down a single unit of Pharoah's bowmen. My mistake was that I was tired of fighting battles and hit the auto-battle button.

My Spartans only killed about 40 of the PB's, with 224 of their own casualties.

I really don't see how that's even physically possible.

The whole Desert Axemen invisible armour thing? Check out Gallic/Briton Swordsmen!!!
They do not wear armour on their torso yet they have an armour defence bonus so I wish people would shut up about axemen, its so boring now.