Computer-Controlled Factions: Best and Worst?

Hi, I've had MTW (and VI) for about 5 months, and I just joined the forums here today. Before I got MTW I was a huge Age of Empires II junkie, and I spent a lot of time at the Age of Kings Heaven forums, but I guess I'll be hangin' out here for a while now.

Anyway, whenever I'm playin the medieval campaign game, it seems like some factions with similar strengths at the beginning usually do much better than others. In my experience:

English: Get their butts kicked by France, often only surviving in Ireland or another remote province.
France: Take over England and often overrun the HRE and Spain. If there is one faction that almost always does well with the AI, it's the French.
Byz: Grow rapidly in Early but are toppled by Turks, Egypt, and the Horde.
The Horde: Get most of the steppes, and stop.
Egypt and the Almos: Often one or the other takes over a large part of the western or eastern part of the map.
HRE: Does OK, but never great. Often killed by France.
Spain: Usually beats the Alamos, and If France doesn't overrun Western Europe, they will.
Papacy: Always there, often takes what Sicily had if they attack the pope.
Turks: Usually beat up by Egypt, almost never gets very big.
Danes, Sicily, and especially Argon: Sit and do nothing, (which is understandable considering their one-province starting positions) but Sicily often does pretty good before biting off more than they can chew with the Pope or Italy.
Russia: Not much, esp. when the Horde arrives.
Poland and Hungary: Often burn each other out, if not, HR > Poles, and Byz > Hungary.

Of course, every game is dramatically different, and it often depends on who I'm playing as :duel:, but overall, I would say that the worst AI faction is Aragon, and the Best is France. Is any of this usually true when you play?

It's been a long while since I played MTW, but I still remember the Western side of the campaign map colouring blue and/or bright yellow, as the French and/or the Spanish dominated a large part of map. Very rarely another faction (England) became a major player.
I usually played at the Eastern side of the map, so France/Spain always went on its traditional blitzkrieg in the West. They were also the major Crusading factions who regularly paid my Byzantine/Turkish terroritories a visit. I've rarely seen HRE or English crusades.

Wow,your experiences are in sharp contrast with mine.Here's what happens mostly when I'm playing(I have mostly played in Early so far:I conquered 100% with all factions in Early and am now playing on High Period):
-Almohads almost always win in Spain,only once did the Spanish win(when I was playing with the Byz)
-The English win most of the time vs the French(+- 2 times out of 3)
-HRE gets attacked by everyone else and has never played a major role
-Egyptians do very well all the time
-Byz do well on Early,very bad on High
-Sic always get medium-sized before they are run over
-Turks don't often get big,but when they do,expand very quickly
-Poles and Huns never get big
-Russians always get big on High
-Aragonese attack Spanish or French in Early,attack Almos on High
-Danish invade Pomerania and move further east(however,when I recently played as the English on High,the Danish almost immediately invaded Sweden and Norway! :dizzy2: )

I must say I don't have any Mod installed,do you?Maybe this explains the differences,otherwise different tactics do I guess.(I can't believe the Spanish lose against Almos most of the time when you play,they usually get crushed very soon)

I agree with the last post. If I see a crusade while playing turks, its English plus Spanish is always out within the first hour of play.

Maybe we are all playing different starting factions?

I'm going to play Danes, Watch the whole map and start from early just to see who wins what.

No, I don't have any mods. Most of what you said is more or less the same as what I've seen, except:

Originally Posted by :
-Almohads almost always win in Spain,only once did the Spanish win(when I was playing with the Byz)
-The English win most of the time vs the French(+- 2 times out of 3)

I've been playing in the east for my past 3 or so games, and the winner in that area has been France twice and Spain once (though it went back to France after a massive civil war/french reappearance.)

I guess, now that I think about it, the Spain/Almohad conflict is more like a 50/50 split.

for some reason in GA mode sicily always seems to get pretty big, and the AI overall seems to be more aggresive

Originally Posted by viermaaldomi:
Wow,your experiences are in sharp contrast with mine.Here's what happens mostly when I'm playing(I have mostly played in Early so far:I conquered 100% with all factions in Early and am now playing on High Period):
-Almohads almost always win in Spain,only once did the Spanish win(when I was playing with the Byz)
-The English win most of the time vs the French(+- 2 times out of 3)

I believe this is the case especially in MTW 1.0 without the VI expansion installed. Last year I bought the Battle Pack but I played a long Byzantine campaign in 1.0 first (I didn't know that VI+the patch added so many really nice features :disappointed:) and then the Almohads defeated the Spaniards and England ruled over France. I've never seen those two countries expanding after installing the expansion pack.

Ah, that may be it. I have the Battle Collection too, I wonder if viermaaldomi doesn't have VI.

That must be it,I don't have the VI expansion installed yet (I first wanted to experience the original game,but I'm getting pretty tired of those Almohads)

Now that I think of it,the Hojo's strength must also have been limited in the MI expansion pack then?They were just ridiculously strong in the original Shogun,can't wait to find out

viermaaldomi, have you even installed the first patch? Iirc the first patch accounted for most of those changes including a very large horde.

Originally Posted by viermaaldomi:
That must be it,I don't have the VI expansion installed yet (I first wanted to experience the original game,but I'm getting pretty tired of those Almohads)

That was my idea too. "I wanted to play the original game first, before installing the expansion". How silly of me. I should have known that the Viking Invasion expansion was an addition to the game, and that it would not overwrite the game, as I first thought. :bucktooth:

Originally Posted by Tricky Lady:
I believe this is the case especially in MTW 1.0 without the VI expansion installed. Last year I bought the Battle Pack but I played a long Byzantine campaign in 1.0 first (I didn't know that VI+the patch added so many really nice features :disappointed:) and then the Almohads defeated the Spaniards and England ruled over France. I've never seen those two countries expanding after installing the expansion pack.

I believe this has been the experience with most players who played the original MTW and then got Viking Invasion later on, myself included. With the original Medieval, there were very few games where the western half of the map wasn't dominated by the Almohads--the Caliphate's AI was not only aggressive, but it was also simply too good at taking advantage of the fact that it had the best troops in the Early period, particularly its urban militia.

On the other hand, England's troops aren't anything special in the Early perioed. This didn't matter, however, because in the original Medieval, the French AI was so weak that the English could've beat them with the proverbial one hand tied behind their back. This was the other major reason why the Almos were able to push into Western Europe so easily.

Once I installed Viking Invasion, though, I noticed that the Almohad and French AI's were essentially reversed. The French became much more aggressive (hence one of the reasons they get ex-commed so often), and the Almos generally reverted to fighting on the defensive against Spain and Aragon. With Viking Invasion installed, about the only times I see the Almos take any kind of offensive actions is that they sometimes invade Portugal (which of course is a foolhardy excercise, especially if they haven't converted the Portuguese first), or to retake a province that's been conquered by someone else. Aside from that, I never see them in an aggresive posture at all anymore.

I haven't got anything installed yet,but I'll install VI right away now that I know some of the improvements (however,if now the French always get very big instead of the Almohads it's not much of an improvement).

Originally Posted by viermaaldomi:
I haven't got anything installed yet,but I'll install VI right away now that I know some of the improvements (however,if now the French always get very big instead of the Almohads it's not much of an improvement).

I wouldn't worry too much about the French. About the only time they get truly big is if you're playing on the opposite side of the map, and therefore can't get to them right away. Even a mediocre player like myself can take them on easily enough. ~;)

Yes, the French are noticably more aggressive with Viking Invasion installed, but they're still not as bad as the Almohads are in regular Medieval. The main reason for this is that their troops simply aren't as good as the Almos' units, and thus cannot take out their enemies as quickly. The Caliphate, with its AUM's, Desert Archers, and Berber Camels, has an almost overwhelming advantage, especially in Early. This is why in the original game, they could basically blitzkrieg all of western Europe in just a few decades or so.

Since the French are limited to just your standard Catholic units, however (and have no exclusive units of their own), it generally takes them much longer to become big and powerful. Thus, you usually have more time to stop them. Also, France tends to pick on England and the HRE before going after anyone else, which makes things easier for you as well--even if you're playing as one of those two factions.

In other words, if you're playing as the English or the Germans, just attack them first. (Chances are you probably do this anyway, but it never hurts to reinforce the point. ~:) ) Even if you take just 1 or 2 of their provinces, it should still be enough to knock the French so off-balance that they never become a serious threat. This is especially true if you're able to attack them before they've begun any major expansion.

Of course, if you're playing as someone other than the English or Germans, then you'll usually have time to build up your own forces and take on France at a time and place of your own choosing. Among all of France's neighbors, Spain is probably the best "other" faction to play as if you're concerned about containing the Franks. Ironically enough, the Almohads are also a good "other" faction, assuming you can take out Spain and Aragon quickly enough.

And last but not least, always remember that France tends to get excommunicated rather often. So no matter who you're playing as, have your armies (and a couple Crusades, if possible) ready to go rescue the French people from their heretic monarchs. ~D

I don't particularly think the Argonese are the worst faction... I just think they are stuck between the French and the Spanish, which are both good.



My vote for the worst is probably the Burgundians... Simply because I can never get the buggers to come out and play...

Oh yes, and my vote for the best is the Pope... because it's like a case a fleas... They never really go away. And they're always peaving me.

I have to respect a small faction that can upset me as much as this one does... even after you learn how to deal with em.

I kind of miss those huge masses of full orange stacks that the Almos used to challenge you with half way thru the game. I can remember some of my early games where the Almos would have about 20 full stacks when they decided to invade France. Very exciting and challenging. Nobody gets quite that big anymore.

WOW.

In my current game (turks, high, GA) the Argonese are kicking butt.
According to the GA screen, they have7 proinces, including (best I can tell) Aragon, leon, castile, valencia, aqutaine, provence, and touluse. I have an emmisary in provence, and I see 4 almost full army stacks in that ugly salmon pink color. They are on there way to becoming a major power. ~:eek:

I was shocked in my last game to see Aragon take all of france, leaving Spain to the spanish. Usually, however, the French dominate pretty much everyone, and the British are crushed.

I have never seen the Danes do anything but breed themselves into bankruptcy, and I have never seen Novgorod do anything other than send 100 man armies at large rebel provinces and lose, even though the army sitting on their other province could have won. ~:confused:

The Almohads are the weakest faction in my experience. The never attack, and fold like paper. Any attack on them usually triggers a crippling civil war as well.

Originally Posted by King Bob VI:
WOW.

(...)They are on there way to becoming a major power. ~:eek:

Wow! Give us some screenshots, please! I 've never seen them doing any good...

I'm having a similar experience with the Almohads in my current Byzantine game. They've left Spain alone but have conquered the southern half of France and look to get even bigger. I'm going to see what I can do to help them out as it would be awesome to face a major Aragonese power for a change.

well a lot of times the french are teh strongest when I play, but a lot of times, the egyptians, spanish, and germans are the super powers

the germans go east from their starting point all the way into constantinople and poland, egyp takes a lof africa and up to georgia, and spain controls most of western europe, and I usually play as the russians so I control the northern part of the map

I just got a message that said the Aragonese have the strongest military might (biggest armies). Pretty Amazing.

Edit: Screenie:
http://www.dragonbbs.com/members/daveapsley/aragon.jpg

Wow, are the Ahlos really only in portugal and the French only in Wessex....

:bomb2:

What is with Italy?

They control, Scotland, a few Italian provinces, Granada, Morroco, Greece and Corsica.

Just a little spread out.

I've seen that happen before with Italy in later versions of the game (including some pre-VI). If they get a chance to develop and manage to spread their fleet around (which they often do, since their AI is very pro-naval), they can get quite adventurous. I remember one game in High were they held Scotland and some territory in North Africa, just like in King Bob's game. His looks quite interesting btw - never seen Aragon so strong, not to mention the Pope holding all of Italy (!).

Although I often have problems when I play as Aragon, they can do well if given a chance. For Aragon to survive and prosper, they need at least two things to happen: The Spanish to ignore them and go after the Almohads, and the French to get ex-communicated and/or go to war against the English.

Now it's true that you can usually depend on all these things happening. Even then, however, Aragon still tends to need a little something extra. Generally, it means catching the Spanish and/or French with their pants down; i.e., leaving some of their provinces underdefended. Without that happening, Aragon usually gets nowhere.

It's interesting how variable it really is... my experience has been quite different from King Bob's for example, though mostly I've noticed sharp differences between versions. In v1.00 for instance, I remember the Spanish steamrolling the Almos every time and marching to Egypt through North Africa.

In various versions of the game I've always seen many English, French, German and Spanish crusades. I've also seen a couple Italian crusades and IFIRC a Sicilian one too (against me as the Turks).

In VI v2.00, which I play now, I mostly see the following patterns:

French - very aggressive. In early they do quite well, probably because of excellent generals, usually attack Lorraine. Seem to crusade more in High than Early.
Germans - the empire tends to fall apart in civil wars, I usually see half their territory controlled by rebels.
Hungarians - also very aggressive, usually expand east to the steppes or into Italy or Germany depending on the situation. I've almost always seen them do well.
Turks - usually strong or at least they never quite go down without a fight.
Russians - for some reason they do horribly, unlike past versions - get beaten up by the rebels. Speaking of which...
Rebels - I notice they're much stronger than in past versions. They hold on to the steppes quite fiercely, in my current game they're even threatening to destroy the Polish after completely rolling back their early expansion eastwards. Pretty scary, but an interesting change!

here's what I think about most of the factions

French-95% of the time are the strongest and richest country on the map
Alhomads-they always expand far into Europe, until they meet france or me
Egyptians-in the normal version they do well, in the XL mod they get beaten up by the crusaders
Mongols-do very well at the beggining, then stop at polland
Danes-usually expand into the eastern part, into russia and mongolia
Germany-gets beat up by everyone
England-france kills them
Byz-do good in early, but in HIgh and Late get owned badly
Russians-I usually play as them, so I don't really know how they do

thats my 2 cents