Making new animations .... how is it done!

:help: OK....in order to make some rather ...different...new units, I needed to make some custom animations.

so:

Using the last version of V's animation tool and the animaiton unpacker, I set to work.

Step 1: I fired up the animation editor, and made a copy of 'fs_dagger' which I called 'fs_test'. I selected 'no' to the prompt to use the same animations. This created a new skeleton called 'fs_test' which was a copy of fs_dagger, but which was going to use my own variation on the CAS files.

Step 2: I extracted all the animations from the pak file using the animation unpacker, so I had all the animations available to work with.

Step 3: To test all was well, I ran the game with the barbarian peasant set to use my new skeleton. So far, so good.

Step 4: I copied a full set of animations into the new 'data/animations/data/animations/fs_test folder and made a few simple changes. I replaced the 'taunt' animations ( 1-3) with the stand idle animation. I figured this should allow me to have a basic animation without the silly arse-slapping etc. which wouldn't really fit with what I wanted.

Step 5: Ran the game ot see if the animations OUT of the pack file would get picked up. They don't. The taunting still took place!

Step 6: Ran the fs_test_Updateanims batch file that was sitting in the animations folder. All the animations seemed to have been updated OK in the dos-box, and no nasty errors showed up.

Step 7 ...run game. CTD. I have show_errs operating, but it bombs out without a single error message.

So....I know SOME people have made this work, but I can't seem to find the trick of it. I can make new animations, I can add new skeletons, but I can't get custom animations to work.

HELP!

OK.. frustration setting in ~:(

I have tried every permutation of this I can think of, but I can't get anything that seems to work.

I tried making a new skeleton. I replied 'no' to the animations, and all I get are CTD's. I put in every animation listed in the descr_skeleton and added them with the batch file, but I still get CTD

If I try making a new skeleton with 'yes' to copy the animations, I can't change the animations. I made up a sub folder, put some anims in and tried to add/update the pak file with them. No effect.

Having read every thread on every forum I can find, it all seems to lead to blind alleys. I have had some explanations of how it should work in the past, but could never actually get anything to work.

I also found out that the guy who made the new hoplite anims has also had to leave off work due to graphical anomalies being created by V's animation editor. Oh well...

Without new animations, my 'robots' project os dead in the water. I have designed a load of models which can use the stock skeletons provided I re-work all the animations...but no new anims means no project until such time as this becomes suitably easy to mod.


Back to the drawing board....I need a project idea with ONLY humans, and only using the stock skeletons and animations

So sorry that you can't get the animations to work.

What do mean a project with only stock skeletons and animations? Are you trying to make robots using those?

Step 5, you are right, the animations don't get picked up automatically like the skins or the sounds do.

Step 7, it is very important that you do NOT delete the pack.dat/idx and skeleton.dat/idx files. Did you?

No... I left the PAK files where they were. I know the removal of the PAK files is an instant CTD even with the animations all extracted.

I really need to get some kind of workable set of steps that WILL produce an animation of a workable nature. Once I have a working process, then I can make the animations in Max and do what I need to do.

And, yes, I was making robotic creatures and such like. If, for example, you wanted to make a heavy 'Mech' type machine, I was giving it the 'width' across the shoulders by locking the upper arms in place, and just animating it from the elbows. Then, do the same with the legs, and you have the bulky body....that sort of thing.

I also planned to make 'tank' like vehicles using the arms as guns, with the body as a turret. The base would be a 'mount'.

There were all sorts of things outlined! I needed walking animations that didn't 'bob' up and down with the root bone shifting in running animations ... the list was quite lengthy!

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Originally Posted by Bwian

OK.. frustration setting in ~:(

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It does that...

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I tried making a new skeleton. I replied 'no' to the animations, and all I get are CTD's. I put in every animation listed in the descr_skeleton and added them with the batch file, but I still get CTD

If I try making a new skeleton with 'yes' to copy the animations, I can't change the animations. I made up a sub folder, put some anims in and tried to add/update the pak file with them. No effect.

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I always answer yes, it makes testing easier.

Your sub folders on the other hand are probably incorrect.

A good way to make sure everything is honky dory, make the new skeleton, then extract everything from the animation paks. Should give you the correct file structure. Only do this if nothing else is working, which I think is the case here.

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Having read every thread on every forum I can find, it all seems to lead to blind alleys. I have had some explanations of how it should work in the past, but could never actually get anything to work.

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Follow the readme in vercs animation editor to the word, and your fine, I had no problems with the editor.
There are limitations on the animations however... I have been unable to get an animation over 43kB in with out it CTDing.

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I also found out that the guy who made the new hoplite anims has also had to leave off work due to graphical anomalies being created by V's animation editor. Oh well...

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There are some wierd odities with animations, but they are not vercs editors fault.
Things like bone X lossing its rotation data (so it goes dead straight) seem to happen when there is some clipping going on. I don't know if this is a RTW or CAS exporter issue, but I know how to fix it, just minimise the limb's clipping into the other parts of the body.

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Without new animations, my 'robots' project os dead in the water. I have designed a load of models which can use the stock skeletons provided I re-work all the animations...but no new anims means no project until such time as this becomes suitably easy to mod.

Back to the drawing board....I need a project idea with ONLY humans, and only using the stock skeletons and animations

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Don't give up, new animations are probably the hardest thing with units that is still possible. Took me some time to get it all working, but now its great!

Ah yes and do not use the Animation editor to repack animations. It is broken and does not work, use the XIDX program for that. In a way I regret releasing the Animation Editor, there are too many buggy things about it and it is essentially a tool to automate hacking the skeleton.idx/dat. Nothing you could not do by hand (which is what I was doing before I made it).

So will XIDX also open up skeleton.dat/idx soon?

Well it's not quite the same. I could have it extract the different skeletons but I don't see how that would do you any good because you would still have to edit the skeletons with a hex editor. What we need is the game to parse descr_skeleton.txt OR compile descr_skeleton.txt into skeleton.idx/dat

Thanks for the tips guys .... I will go back and re-look at my the process I am following and see if I can't make it work.

It's nice to know, though, that it CAN be made to work! Perhaps the machines will rise once more ;) Especially the 'Harvester' with it's rotating blades, and the Rock Driller...

Quite clearly, I am missing something fundamental here:

This is what I have done so far:

1) Run animation editor and created a new skeleton called 'fs_test'. When prompted about using the same animations, I typed 'yes'. Don't know if 'y' works...but 'yes' seems to create a viable skeleton.

2) Modified the descr_model_battle file to replace 'fs_dagger' with fs_test. I also changed the model this file was using to one of my undead horde creatures to make an easy visible confirmation that I was looking at the right model!!!!

3) Ran a test custom battle, and checked that the things all worked without errors before I started messing around. All was well.

Next, I ran the animation extractor batch file to drag all the animations out with XIDX. This created all the sub-folders etc. but I do NOT see a file called 'fs_test' being created. IF this is not being generated insode the folder, surely I cannot add new animations without over-writing old ones ?

I have created a sub-folder with a full path of
[root]data/animations/data/animations/fs_test
and put some dummy animations in there to replace the 3 taunt animations, plus the run loop, march loop and stand idle anims. This should give me a copy of the 'death' animation looping in place of the normal one's. I just want something that will clearly display the fact that I have made an impact before I start making new ones.

Where do I go next?

I have no clear idea how to get the animations back into the file archives from this point. V's suggesting I use XIDX to re-pack the archive.... but I don't know how to use it for that purpose. All I ever did with it was run the extract batch files....and the readme that comes with it doesn't say. If I try to use Animation Editor, I was still getting no result.

Bwian, keep trying with AnimPacker for now, it is easier to learn the process with. Then after you know what's going on, then XIDX will come in useful.

Anyway, here's the steps for my process:

0) Step zero is most important of all: before you do anything else, reset everything to default and make sure the game runs and works. Then go to step 1.

1) The very first thing you need is to know which skeleton you'll be modifying. This is absolutely key. So, let's say you're modifying fs_spearman. Open descr_skeleton.txt, find "fs_spearman", and look at all the animation files associated with all the various actions. Let's say you want to modify the animation for "Stand Ready" -- this animation is triggered when the guy isn't fighting, but the enemy is close nearby. Let's say you want your hoplite... er spearman to hold the spear overhand. So, after you unpack the animation files, find that file: LIS 01 Stand Ready.cas.

2) Now, copy whatever animation file you wanna change to some folder somewhere else, and delete all those unpacked anim files. They play absolutely no bearing on the game, and the game will not run merely on them. So you only need the four .dat/.idx files to make things work. So if you have the directory structure like: data/animations/data/animations/*, delete the inner data folder, reset everything to normal (after you've saved your animation file elsewhere).

3) create new skeleton in AnimPacker, called fs_test. Press NO -- big big deal. If you press yes, then you'll get more confused. Pressing NO means that all animation files pertaining to the original skeleton are moved to a separate folder and are thus now independent. That's all you should care about, for now.

4) Now, a fresh standalone copy of a skeleton is made, so quit AnimPacker. All the new files copied to a new folder don't show up in your folder structure, they're already squeezed into pack.dat. What remains in your directory structure are the FOLDERS, i.e. you'll have an empty data folder, with an empty animations folder, with an empty fs_test folder, with two other empty folders inside that. Go into the empty fs_test folder, and delete those two empty folders inside that, they'll be confusing for you at this point. They pertain to the animations during sieges, so not important for now. So yo now have a completely empty fs_test folder, so copy LIS 01 Stand Ready.cas into it. Now, if you run the UpdateAnims file, it will insert that file, with whatever changes you'd like, into pack.dat. However, since this is the vanilla file right now, go ahead and change it to do something else, and then put it in that folder (fs_test) and do the update. Then let us know how things go.

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Originally Posted by Vercingetorix

Well it's not quite the same. I could have it extract the different skeletons but I don't see how that would do you any good because you would still have to edit the skeletons with a hex editor. What we need is the game to parse descr_skeleton.txt OR compile descr_skeleton.txt into skeleton.idx/dat

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Verc, why can't XIDX do the little bit that AnimPacker used to do? And also, could you explain what each of the pack.dat/idx, skeleton.dat/idx files does in this thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43984

For general reference. I am considering editing the skeleton.dat/idx file by hand for now, but it would help to know why there are two of the files and not one.

WOOHOO! I do believe this has actually worked ~:)

I followed your steps EXACTLY.

I used fs_dagger as my base, and copied the anims I planned to change right out of the way, and cleared up the debris every time. That was good advice..... it made it much easier to keep track of what was where.

Next, I took a copy of the 'run loop' animation, and replaced ALL of the 10 different 'stand idle' anims with the run loop.

I used the 'No' option ( which was where I was going wrong before ) and updated the pack with the batch file to add the 10 anims I had changed.

Then I fired up a quick test mission with barbarian peasants set to use fs_test. As soon as I hit go, the soldiers ran off like sprinters ~:). They were running unless told to do something else! This was what I expected them to do....

I am going to do a bit more experimenting, but I think I have got it right for the first time ever!!! The first REAL job I need to do is to remove the taunts from the fs_dagger anim. Then I can make my first set of droid anims. I also need a couple of hovering anims ...walking ones where the root bone doesn't bob about :D

Dsyrow1 ... THANKS!!!!

~D ~:cheers:

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Originally Posted by dsyrow1

Verc, why can't XIDX do the little bit that AnimPacker used to do? And also, could you explain what each of the pack.dat/idx, skeleton.dat/idx files does in this thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43984

For general reference. I am considering editing the skeleton.dat/idx file by hand for now, but it would help to know why there are two of the files and not one.

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You mean like spell out the file format or like this ? The reason there are two files is that .idx is the "index" and .dat is the raw data.
Xidx is for packing/repacking sounds and animations, if you would find it usefull to extract and repak skeletons I could probably implement it without much trouble.

Yes could you do that feature too? And my question is: if I want to change where the descr_skeleton looks for animations, should I edit skeleton.dat or skeleton.idx? If I just want to change the descr_skeleton data itself, not bone positions or some such stuff.

skeletons.dat, the idx file just tells where the different skeletons are defined within skeletons.dat. The payload is all in the dat file.

Would the unpack/repack of skeleton.dat allow the actual creation of a new skeleton with re-positioned bones ? If I were able to make a skeleton ( using the same number and names of the bones ) with the pivots positions moved around a lot, that would be REALLY useful. I could make the legs on the Heavy Walker a lot shorter, and the 'shoulders' a lot wider. I could also make a couple of units with longer arms....

Verc, are you absolutely sure that there are bone positions in skeleton.dat? Is that why deleting those two files and relying on descr_skeleton.txt didn't work? Is that why AnimPacker doesn't work properly, because I looked at the code and it doesn't seem to be writing any bone data into the files?

From 'empiric' experimentation, it is clear that the animations are only actually recording the rotations applied to each bone, not the bone positions. It can only really be the DAT file that is holding the necessary information.

Each bone would need to be named, and the basic skeleton structure defined somewhere. If it is in the CAS file, then it would be possible to make new shapes by moving the bones in the CAs file, but it isn't. Also, if you translate a bone position, rather than rotate it, the effect is ignored.

As to why the game won;t run without the DAT files...well...I think it is possible something more than just the animations. I suspect the game is just designed to run that way :D

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Originally Posted by dsyrow1

Verc, are you absolutely sure that there are bone positions in skeleton.dat? Is that why deleting those two files and relying on descr_skeleton.txt didn't work? Is that why AnimPacker doesn't work properly, because I looked at the code and it doesn't seem to be writing any bone data into the files?

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Yes I am sure... If you look at the code that scales skeletons it scales the bone positions.

I was thinking so time ago and realized that the .rum files do not contain any skeleton information unlike the .cas files. Aha I said I'll just delete the .rum files so it uses the .cas files and then it'll load the skeleton from the first .cas file like Jerome said... It was a good thought but it turns out not to have worked.

Wait but my two questions remain unanswered:

1) If the bone positions are stored in the DAT, is that the conclusive reason why simply relying on descr_skeleton.txt will not work?

2) When AnimPacker creates a new skeleton, how does it deal with those bone positions of the old skeleton, copy them to their respective places in the new one? Is this why AnimPacker's buggy (I noticed that it only has problems creating skeletons, cos updating existing animations seems to work perfectly).

And here's a new question:

3) Earlier you said that it would be a very good idea to make a program that compiles descr_skeleton.txt into skeleton.dat/idx -- but how can this be done, given what you said? Where will the compiler get the bone position data? (btw, please check your gmail email, I sent you something to this extent as well)

1) It's a good bet.
2) The Animation editor just copies the base skeleton.
3) Well you could simply have it ask for a .cas file for it to extract the bone positions from for each skeleton.

As to answer your email question, If I were to add support for extracting skeletons from skeleton.dat it would extract all the skeletons into a separate binary file. It would not turn skeletons.dat back into descr_skeleton.txt or anything like that...

Verci, so far the discussion has focused on two mutually exclusive alternatives:

1) either we continue to use skeletons.dat and force ourselves to work through the binary format, or

2) spend an incredible amount of time making a compiler/decompiler which extracts text info from skeletons.dat into descr_skeleton.txt, and then constructs a whole knew skeletons.dat from that text file.

If we go with option 2, why do we have to worry about bone positions stored on skeletons.dat? Why not simply extract the text content of skeletons.dat, then have that information easily editable in text format, and then again reinsert it into skeletons.dat? That would work for all cases, I think, except for when you create a whole new skeleton. But then you could just have some sort of prog, similar to what you already created, which simply copies the old base skeleton... I really don't think that'd be a lot of work, hmmm...

Not that I really understand exactly how all this works...but... ;)

The suggestion from Vercingetorix that we could 'supply a CAS file for it to get the bone positions from' sounds like an interesting concept if it means what I think it means.... Please correct me if I am wrong!

If the builder wanted to make, say, and Ogre type creature. It would have longer arms by proportion, a broader set of shoulders and shorter legs.

Currently, you could make the mesh, but you could not actually animate it with the stock skeleton. It would only allow human proprtions, and would force the skeleton into that shape.

When you modify an animation, it only takes into account the rotations you make on the joints, so even if you re-site the joints by translating the pivots, when the CAS file for the animation is exported, nothing but the rotations are saved.

When creating an animation from scratch, you have to start with the model in the reference 'arms out' pose and make the first frame by moving the model into the start pose. This gives the game the data to start the animation.

If we could build a CAS file as the basic model and use that to reference the relative positions of the pivots for the DAT file, that would allow us to make ANY body shape we wanted, provided we kept to the stack number and structure of bones. A 'human' based skeleton would have joints at 'wrist', 'elbow' and 'shoulder' but we would be able to choose where these joints were, rather than being tied strictly to the stock layout....which, I have to say, makes for rather puny people! Is this feasable.....can it be done....would be absolutely AMAZING if we could do that! I want to make some models which are somewhat Non Human :D

Bwian, what you suggest is already done. Check out the Blue Lotus mod, the screenshots, hoggy has been making demons with four arms, and huge dragons.

I would love to know how Hoggy made the 4-armed demons so that the arms all move independantly!

The dragons I can figure out. There is a definite hint of an underlying elephant skeleton there which has been cleverly camouflaged! I have been using a similar approach in my efforts to produce a 'dreadnought' type mech unit. I pinched the slinger animation and replaced the sling with a cutting blade. The upper part of the arm is fixed in the straight out position, and only the elbow joint moved to point forwards. Rotation of the shoulder joint is limited to allow the end of the arm to pivot along it's axis. It works...sort of!

I am also curious as to how the position of the pivots can be moved. Every time I have tried this it has had no effect on the game model. I know the animations I am putting in has changed, but the pivots always seem to be fixed. Am I missing something ?

I have followed just about every thread on the subject of custom skeletons, but not found anything that tells me more. Most of the active 'modders' seem to either avoid the subject... except you and Vercingetorix!

How do I re-site the pivots for key bones....

a) In the model CAS file ?
b) In the animation CAS files
c) Both
d) Something else I haven't the wit to think of this late in the evening ;)

I can sense I am on the verge of one of those revelatory moments, and one little nudge is all I need!

Option A is the one highly likely to solve all your animation needs...

I hope this can be done!

e) They are in skeletons.dat...

Verci, have you had any luck with your updates for Animation editing in XIDX? You said you'd make a new option to make skeleton editing easier....

I know I know have patience with me...

Just trying to get an update on progress, not intending to put any pressure :) Thanks for the update :)

Is this an update that will make it possible, like Bwian has asked about, to change skeletons? That is crucial for the mod I'm working on! More than crucial, many many factions are impossible without us being able to change anatomy. (It's Warhammer TW if you were wondering). Simply no way an orc or an ogre could look right without broader shoulders, proportionally shorter legs a.s.o.

I just want you to know that if you fix this Vercingetorix you're our hero (once again). No pressure though, take your time man. Just great to hear that there might be a way.

Please review screenshots from the Blue Lotus mod. They are already creating dragons and such.

On an elephant skeleton ~;) Sure looks amusing, but it's apparent it's not a new skeleton. And the four armed sword fighters have two static arms from what I could tell, likely weighted to the torso.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from the information I've gathered in this and other threads it appears no one has actually managed to do any anatomical modifications yet. That's where I was hoping Vercingetorix would come in to the picture.

Quadrille...thats pretty much my reading of the situation. I have used a similar trick to make a 'Scout Walker' type robot. I basically just used the rear leg protion of a camel skeleton, and only weighted teh bones I wanted. It works OK...but you are limited to the camel proportions.

I also abandoned a fantasy based Myth total War project purely on those grounds. You just can' t make the fantasy creatures look right. You need Ogres to be bulkier, Dwarves to be stockier, etc.

I saw the screenshots from the LOTR mod, and their Dwarves looked like children. It was a good try, and the best that could be done...but it still just didn't looke right to me.

There are many improvements that could be made to the basic skeletons, that would open doors for fantasy mods ( my Robot one included ) The ability to lay out completely new skeletons in completely new patterns is all that prevents us!

so far I've just been using existing skeletons on Blue Lotus, camels, elephants and such with different scales. Units like the 4 armed warrior are there in hope of future development (or otherwise I'll just weight them to the existing arms) Is it possible to use current skeletons but have the animations move the bone origins? ie. If you did a troll say with very long arms could you use the human skeletion but make all his animations specifically positioned for long arms?

Hoggy....as far as moving the actual pivot locations go, no. Thats what we hope Vercingetorix can do, and is essentially the last step needed to actually make a new skeleton.

At present, if you try and move the pivot location in either the animation or the base model, it is ignored in game. Vercingetorix has confirmed that the actual pivot locations are defined in skeletons.dat, but we currently cannot edit it.

What I hope, is that the hints around us being able to supply a 'reference' skeleton and have that read into a new animation editor version to create a new skeleton actually becomes possible.

We may end up being limited ot the same number and rough hierarchy of bones, but I could live with that just fine! Most of the 'things' I want to build would work ok with re-sited pivots.....

hoggy> you can entend the mesh and for some limited movements it could work ok. But in most cases, especially when there's a joint involved, the warping of the skin can look very bad.

Thought you might like to know I updated XIDX. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...145#post480145

Well, I posted a reply in the TWC thread. I am really excited! I think we're almost there!

Excellent! That will be a great help. ~:)

I can't download the newest version of the IDX tool ( not a Trivium member ) but it does look interesting. I will keep an eye on progress ~:)

You don't have to be a Trivium member, just member of their forums. I've downloaded it, and it's nice!

OK...joined up and downloaded the latest XIDX.

Gave the skeleton unpack a whirl, and got a list of 'files' with no extension, and a list. This does appear to be a list of all the animations ( certainly looks like it to me ) but I can't figure out what to do with them now I have them!

Is there any way to actually edit the files that are extracted?

Yea, hex edit them. That's how I released my latest animations pack mod. Just rename all of those paths to animations, to point to a different folder (but keep the total length the same, so you'll have to delete an equivalent number of characters from the actual file name of the animation).

Ah..OK.

What can the tool actually do that the old animation editor couldn't ?

I can see that you can copy and re-name a skeleton, but is it actually a NEW skeleton, or is it just a copy of the old skeleton with new animations possible once you hex-edit the file to re-point it to a folder full of animations?

Basically, think of what we have now as an NON-BUGGY version of the old AnimPacker. And today Verci has released an even further improved version of the packer, removing from you the necessity to hex editing anything. But since he's in the groove lately, and since he is much happier with this program (better coding and easier to expand) than the old one, who knows how far he will take this. It's already beyond the old program in terms of having the same functionality but 1) making it unbuggy, and 2) making automatization optional, so you can get down and dirty into skeleton editing yourself, giving you a more hands-on access to the game's inner workings. So, just enjoy what we have now, and I think we're to see a lot more good things from Verci in time to come :)

Thats good to know! Verc may be a great programmer, but he is a lousy readme writer ;)

I see what we have, and will get to grips with using it. I never really liked the old anim packer, since you quickly ended up with messy 'test' work .... and that was on top of the bugs!