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There are some questions concerning the retraining of units. The main issues are the lack of drop in experience - since this contradicts the manual, it is likely a bug - and the strange retraining costs.
The posts here have been taken from the Bug list thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=46366
Feature or bug?
Units when retrained are fulled with recruits with exp level equal to average of the unit.
So if you have unit with just 6 soliders and 9exp, just retrating them you get full unit with 9exp.
Manual states otherwise that recruits are always of low exp, so can water down good exp unit.
I don't think that's a bug, I think it's a feature.Quote:
Originally Posted by player1
And the reason I say that is because you pay more to retrain units with experience - a LOT more. I've got some units of militia hoplites in my current game I won't retrain because the game wants me to pay several hundred denarii for 2 or 3 new soldiers.
In fact now I tend to just merge units with high experience so I'm not faced with the expensive business of retraining them.
Since it cost to upgrade the men with better armour and weapons you can actually get units that cost a lot to retrain a few men.Quote:
Originally Posted by screwtype
Now you might argue that the unit actually was upgraded. But if you had merged it with another unupgraded unit the same visual effect of MTW and STW would appear. The resulting unit would end up looking upgraded (in MTW and STW the unit would actually be upgraded) but at least some of them aren't. Thus it costs a lot to upgrade a seemingly inexpensive unit.
I have just tested this out, and I have concluded that experienced units cost no more to retrain than others.
I had a unit of Hastati beaten down to 14 (men out of 120) and they cost about 390 to retrain. Now that is significant, but I must point out that the unit had attained a silver chevron. So either this isn't very pronoyunced or it is simply not there.
Yes, but I'm sure this bug has been occurring with vanilla units (except for their increased experience) in cities with no available upgrades. I have hardly any upgrades available at all in my current game anyhow, so I don't believe this is the explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
I had a unit of Greek levites (militia hoplites) with only two guys dead and the game was asking me to spend a three figure sum to retrain them - and the unit's base cost is only 230! And that was definitely in a city with no upgrades. The only difference I could see was that the unit had extra experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
The game does make you pay a lot more for experience. For instance, if you hire a unit of merc bastamae, a vanilla unit will only cost 800, but a unit with just 1 extra experience point will go for 1700!
I must say though, the more I look at this the more the sums I'm asked to pay seem totally anomalous. They seem to change all the time. I should probably keep a record of the exact costs I'm asked to pay to try and work out what exactly is going on.
Mind you, I'm currently playing an RTR campaign, I suppose it's possible this is some sort of bug introduced by the mod, but I'm fairly sure it was occurring when I was playing the vanilla game as well. I might have to fire up one of my old vanilla campaigns to confirm it. BTW, I'm sure that all the other bugs I mentioned occur in the vanilla game as well as in the mod.
screwtype (talking about the cost of retraining here), you do know that the mercs are all set to have a specific cost at specific places. Merc hoplite in Sparta are more expensive than those in southern Italy, but not by much actually (950 compared to 850 I think) and they are quite superior in experience (3 to 0). Go change the costs if you want.
RTR might actually have changed to many things that the game now treats retraining a bit differently, go and check the unit file and see if upgrades are more expensive for isntance. But so far it sounds rather positive that you get expensive but experienced recruits, so the mod might actually have made a good feature by accident.
Anyway, I'm pretty certain I see no real costdifference in a less modded game. We need a tiebraker here (essentially I'm saying that the game gives experienced troops for free and screwtype says you pay a lot for them, right?). Who's up for it?
No, that's not what I was talking about. Several times I've gone to the merc screen and been offered two apparently identical bastarmae units in separate boxes side by side. They are exactly the same unit except that one has 1 point of experience and one doesn't. The one with 1 point of experience will always cost about 1700, the one with no experience, 800 or 850 or thereabouts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
Surely you've come across this phenomenon? I can't believe you wouldn't have.
Basically, you pay twice the normal amount for a mercenary unit with experience.
As to the wider issue of whether your own units with more experience cost more to retrain, I was unable to confirm that last night. I took careful note of a bunch of levite units I retrained and the costs varied from between 5.75 and 11.7 denarii per soldier retrained (in the same city), but unfortunately since these were units I had probably merged a number of times I have no way of knowing what their internal makeup was.
Still, the cost difference seems anomalous given that there were no upgrades available in that particular city. It's just that I couldn't see any pattern to indicate why one levite unit was costing twice as much to retrain per soldier as another.
Umn Screwtype I have to make sure...
One of the bastarnae mercs you mentioned didn't happen to be Thracian mercs instead? They have identical images, and that price suits them better - I've never bought Bastarnae for less than 1700 iirc.
There's a difference? LOL, you've confused me now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magraev
These are two identical looking units - you know they have the funny pointy silver helmets, bare midriff, carry falxes as their weapon and a funny shaped shield with a "cut out" in it. They appear side by side in the merc box and the only difference I have seen is the experience point/cost difference I've mentioned.
Maybe I'll have to download that screenshot program to prove my point. What is it called - FRAPS or something?
Doesn't one have two HP?Quote:
Originally Posted by screwtype
screwtype, Thracians and Bastarnae are identical in looks, one costs 1700 and one costs 800. And yes they happento be side by side at times.
If you go into the desrc_mercenaries you can change the costs of every mercenary in the game (for the next game), you can even add and remove units (thus it is possible that RTR added another Bastarnae for low costs), changing them in the unit file does nothing unless if you change the upgradecosts.
There are plenty of places where you can find identical units with only differences in experience, and none of them have more than about 100 dinarii in difference in costs (minus the hoplites of Sparta at 200). But since you can change all these quite easily, and such action is common in mods I have no real confidence in what you have experienced can be relayed to vanilla.
I'm going to test if the experience costs. I will add a unit of Hastati of 5 experience to the Julii and then have it and a normal unit suffer losses, then check it out.
[EDIT] I see no difference at all. And now I have the proof, two screenshots that show the difference between a slightly more depleted unit of 1 XP and one of 5 XP. As I expected the 1 XP was more expensive, and since the game has only just started there are no upgrades (which in any case should apply equally).
5 XP Hastati retrainingcost
And now the 1 XP unit.
1 XP retrainingcost
The evidence is there. There is no costincrease for an experienced unit, yet it gets the recruits at the level of the unit average. This should of course be on the list as it makes the game too easy for us (we can easily get those high XP units while the AI tends to let them get killed off in longer campaigns).
Kraxis, I agree that there should be a higher cost for retraining high XP units. However, I've noted AI take greater advantage of the feature that the new recruits are at the level of the unit average XP, specially romans who manage to get their units depleted to low 20s or 30s in autocalc with other AI factions while gaining lots of XP for the remaining soldiers in the said unit. The AI then manages to retrain many of these depleted units (mostly by then they are down to 10 or so left in the unit with 3-6 XP on average) and ends up with stack of high XP units towards the end of the game. This is however, true where the player does not engage the Romans or the concerned major power till late in the game. Like in my case, I played Parthia and didn't engage the Romans for the first half of the game. When i did, they had so many high XP units (and not because of the temple upgrades only, because Julii don't get such XP upgrades from their temples). Anyhow, I am somewhat in favour of keeping this current system, though with an increased cost for retraining.Quote:
The evidence is there. There is no costincrease for an experienced unit, yet it gets the recruits at the level of the unit average. This should of course be on the list as it makes the game too easy for us (we can easily get those high XP units while the AI tends to let them get killed off in longer campaigns).
Obviously I missed the distinction. I assumed because they were identical looking they were the same unit. My apologies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
Okay, I've just gone and reloaded some of my saved games and checked through the retraining costs of various units. It seems there is no clear relationship after all between unit experience and retraining cost, so I may have been wrong about that. However, something very weird is going on, because I am definitely getting very high retraining costs for some units. Before I actually did this careful check, I just assumed it was due to higher experience because I couldn't see any other reason for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
I should point out before posting these results that I checked carefully for variables that might be altering the unit costs. I made sure there were no generals in the cities where the retraining was being done, and that there were no experience or weapon upgrades available in these cities. I even tried moving units around from one city to another to see if their unit costs changed (they didn't).
It's true that some of the units I tested may have been merged with other units at some stage but the xp points on the unit facing do after all reflect the average xp, so they can't be too far out.
Here are the results I got for each unit checked.
Greek Levites. Standard cost 230 denarii per 40 man unit = 5.75 average cost per soldier.
Unit Exp -- Average Cost per retrained soldier
0 -- 5.73
1 -- 5.73
1 -- 5.74
1 -- 5.75
1 -- 5.75
1 -- 5.76
1 -- 5.76
1 -- 5.76
1 -- 5.8
1 -- 6.72
1 -- 7.82
2 -- 5.75
2 -- 5.76
2 -- 8.8
2 -- 8.9
2 -- 10.5
2 -- 15.5
2 -- 43
3 -- 5.75
3 -- 6.72
3 -- 8.33
3 -- 11.13
4 -- 9.67
Prodromoi (mounted javelins). Standard cost 350 denarii per 27 man unit, or 12.96 per soldier.
1 -- 12.57
1 -- 16.4
1 -- 27.8 (This unit had a weapon upgrade as well as 1 xp)
2 -- 12.58
2 -- 14.2
2 -- 15.1
2 -- 63
4 -- 14.05
Peltasts. Standard cost 200(?) per 40 man unit, or 5 denarii per soldier.
2 -- 20
Now if you can make sense of those results, you've done better than me ~:)
Edit: Since posting those results, I have noticed one pattern, which is that all the weirdest results (results of 15 denarii plus) were for units which had less than 10 men who needed retraining.
However, I'm quite sure that the results are not always too high when there are less than 10 men who need retraining. Usually such units only require a few pennies to retrain, as you'd expect. So I really don't know what's going on.
Is anyone else experiencing weird unit retraining costs like this?
Yeah, it's definitely there, and it happens ALL the time. Most annoying, when it wants you to pay through the nose for 2 or 3 extra soldiers. You have to watch out for the cost of every unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
I recently had a city with the plague, it contained 3 brand new mounted javelin units, all of which had been built in the city and which had not yet been moved or fought in a battle. I left them there for several turns while the plague raged, and when the plague finally ended they'd each been reduced from their full complement of 27 horsemen to 23.
So I decided to rebuild them, right there in the same city where they were first built. The rebuild costs for the three units were: 179, 155 and 101 denarii respectively.
It's got to be a bug.
I copied this from the frst post in the thread and I can assure you it is not a bug:
Retraining experience units keep their experience for no extra cost - Retraining units with high experience costs no more than retraining units with no experience, yet the experienced unit is filled with new recruits who have the same experience as the unit (there is no fall in experience)
Unit experience is based on the number of veteran soldiers in a unit and the ratio of those to soldiers to raw recruits. I do not know what the statistical difference is between veteran soldiers and recruits, but i suspect that veterans may have more hp etc. The veterans tend to survive longer in battle and those that are lost are often replaced by others who have been promoted. The number of chevrons a unit has is also based upon the ratio of veterans to raw recruits. When a unit is retrained the veterans remain and raw recruits are added to fill the empty slots, hence the lack of an increase in retraining cost.
In most cases you will not let your unit lose a very large percentage of its original size and as veterans are more likely to survive than recruits, the experience of the unit will most times remain the same after retraining. If on the other hand your unit takes heavier loses the number of chevrons a unit displays will indeed change. For example: A unit with three gold chevrons and 80 soldiers is reduced to around 15 soldiers during battle. Upon retraining you will find that said unit now displays fewer chevrons, most likely in the mid silver range, but i have seen them fall into the bronze catagory.
Edit: i read the post by Screwtype above, and the most likely reason you are seeing varying retraining costs in my opinion is due to weapon and armor upgrades being available in said cities, due to temples and smiths.
Nope, if you read all my posts in this thread you would have seen that I checked to make sure there were no temple or smith upgrades available, or generals in the city who might have an effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcp
The only explanation for the results I have got that makes sense to me is that the retraining procedure is bugged.
rcp, you most certainly don't lose overall experience at all. I have seen units of 10 men get retrained up to 120 with the same 3XP all the time. You can't tell me that the veteran 10 men has managed to becomer better through retraining.
Personally I would prefer the veteran units to get diluged by green replacements, and not have any costincrease as we all know that in mid-game we start getting a lot of money and can thus easily pay the inflated prices.
oaty, the strange sieges with no besieger is not a case of the player not seeing the besieger due to the FOW. In both cases I have seen, the city was fully visible with no FOW around it. In fact both cases looked like it was the player's cities. Except from a bug the only reasonable case would be an enemy in ambushmode, but that is a little farfetched.
And in the second case it can't have been because the Dacian army retreated from an attacked made on it by the garrison and another army, if you notice the Dacians are still laying siege to the city (if you withdraw the siege is broken). Anyway I actually left the game right after shot and when I reloaded the commander of the garrison had sat down again. So it was obviously some graphical error.
And the leadership pantheon, since all the other pantheons actually do get their bonusses increased I see no point in why the leadership version shouldn't...
Kraxis I would suggest using a 9xp unit to test unit experience. In almost all cases a unit with 3xp would have to take so many losses that the unit would cease to exist before you would see a change in experience for that unit.
Also it may or may not be the case that units which have an experience bonus due to temples keep that bonus at all times under all circumstances, this is an issue I have not looked into myself, but I can tell you that experience does indeed drop after taking heavy losses when testing using high experience units.
Please note I am not saying whether or not the ratios needed to get experienced units are realistic or balanced or anything else. Whether or not you agree with or like how this is calculated is a matter of opinion. Unit experience does work as designed.
About retraining.
Last night I retrained a bireme with 3 gold chevrons and 18 out of 40 men remaing. After retraining I had a 3 gold chevron bireme with 40 men.
That should put all confusion to rest.
rcp, I'm experienced in testing and trust me, units do not drop their experience as due to retraining. Suffering losses can certainly drop the XP as the best men might get killed leaving the less experienced troops alive.
But if you care to mod the game so that you have a highly experienced unit from the get go (in such a unit every soldier is at that same XP level) and let it suffer heavy losses in a battle, and then retrain it you will notice it has kept the same experience as it had after the battle.
But in any case you can always see what the average of the unit is prior to retraining, and that average is always kept.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magraev
What you describe here is a loss off 55% of your unit's soldiers. If you were to lose over 75% of you troops, then you should see a difference in your unit's experience after retraining.
Some may not like that you need such a high rate of troop of troop loss to see a difference. Given how difficult it is to gain experience, when battles are fought on the battlemap, it would be nearly impossible to gain or retain experienced units if a 50% loss resulted in an experience drop. If one aspect of the system is tweaked, the entire system will also need to be tweaked to compensate.
Sorry, that's not true either. I've gone from 40 to 8 (on a bireme) that was triple gold. That's an 80% loss. Still triple gold after retraining.Quote:
Originally Posted by rcp
Bh
Well I had group of 15 three-silver archers (playing as Julii).
After I finally retrained them I got 80 three-silver archers, for normal cost.
As for as I see, game doesn't fill soliders with new recruits.
Maybe, but it is equally silly that in time you have 3 gold chevrons. 9 XP! Even Peasants with this kind of experience can deal insane damage, even defeat most normal infantry. And yes this happens (perhaps not so much with Peasants).Quote:
Originally Posted by rcp
Experience should be something you took very good care of, like in the previous games. Whenever you got a new level of experience you combined that unit with another of equal level. That way you could keep the experience up in a few units that would be your elite core, unlike now when every man and his neigbours dog get high levels of experience.
I have no objection to there being some small benefit to experience to new recruits when they join a veteran unit. It probably shouldn't be more than one experience point though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
It *is* pretty silly to have retrained units retaining all their experience, if this is indeed what is happening, and furthermore it probably only adds to the already overfast kill rates.
Its not so much that they retain their experience its that is so cheap to do so. If the costs increased exponentially AND had a turn penalty to retrain I think that would keep it more balanced. If each additional level of experience you retrained to cost 10 times more and took an extra year/turn or something it should work since it would be the time and money needed to train new recruits up to the standards of the unit they're joining. If people and AI had to wait 5 years and spend 50,000 to retrain to level 5 it would be done a whole lot less.Quote:
Originally Posted by screwtype
First of all, it's clear that XP don't decrease with retraining, as already has been said. I've tried that on a full fleet with veteran ships when I heard that was possible. Even a 3 gold chevron bireme with 5 or 6 men remaining get full XP. Same results for ground units, although I've never reached 9 XP with them.
It's then clearly a bug, or at least a mistake in the manual. Since it's nonsense that green recruits get 3 gold chevrons I vote for the bug option.
About the strange costs of the retraining I've never experienced that. Many times I don't even check it as I have enough money, but every time I suspected an abnormal cost was due to an upgrade applied to the whole unit and not because of the new recruits.
Perhaps it's a silly hypothesis, but I wonder what happens to the armour and weapon upgrades when retraining in a city that don't have such improvements. Whether they are granted for free like the XP, the new recruitments don't get them or perhaps they are charged to you additionally to the cost of the new soldiers. Perhaps somebody who has made some testing could chech if there seems to be something odd related to the armour or weapons improvements. Never happened to me, so perhaps it don't happens at all or only happens in RTR.
Note: With the game like it is you can use your most depleted units to chase routing enemy units and get insane amounts of XP, then just retrain them to get monstrous armies of ultra elite soldiers. It works but it's not really much realistic.
Has it now been confirmed that as of 1.3, the retraining works per the manual, and decreases your XP? That would really discourage retraining, but it certainly seems more reasonable. Otherwise it's too easy to get uber-troops.
To the contrary, retraining in 1.3 still results in NO reduction in experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by gardibolt
If that's the case, and healing units appears to adversely affect experience gained as others are indicating in another thread, then it's to the player's interest to always retrain troops, and generals should always avoid retinue with the surgery effect, correct? (That would be Chirurgeon, Doctor, Druid, Herbalist, Physician, Priest of Asklepios, Priest of Bendis, Priest of Brigantia, Priest of Imhotep, Priest of Woden and Wise Woman). Seems.....counterintuitive, if not outright bugged.:dizzy2:
In my experience, retrained units usually keep their experience level, bot not always.
The general's bodyguard usually drops in experience over time (when the losses get replaced automaticly.)
I do not agree with keeping the chirurgeons etc out of your retinue: It's the front soldiers who get the most experience (kills), and thus the healed soldiers are likely to boost the experience of the group, not lower it.
I've seen units lose experience between the end of the battle and the return to the campaign map, but this seems rare. I can't be certain, but it seems plausible that this is a result of healing.
Still, I don't think it's wise to avoid healing enhancing ancillaries. While the average experience of the unit is lower, you haven't lost anything, and you have men you wouldn't have otherwise. To bring the unit back up to full strength, you end up paying more for the higher experience level than you would if you had more healing. Given the fact that it's unusual for healing to have any effect on overall experience, don't see that it's worth passing up healing when you can get it.
But given that retraining is so cheap,and gives you experienced troops, then why bother with healers? There's no additional cost, but they give you green troops. Seems like it should be the other way around.
Hi
I did some retraining testing during my first Imperial Campaign
RTW V1.5 M/M (No Mods)
I posted it in the Total War forum but its going to be lost in a matter of days due to the volume of traffic in that unstructured site. Didnt want to loose all that work so thought I would link it here in this forum.
http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...ID=33265.topic
http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...ID=33188.topic
My conclusions:
- Soldiers carry their own experience and weapon/armour upgrades
- Unit exp is the average of its soldiers exp
- Unit card displays lowest weapon/armor upgrade present in the unit.
- Retraining adds replacements with weapon upgrades even if city couldnt produce that particular quality of weapon
- Replacements can be green (0 exp) or at the same as other troops in the unit.
- retraining costs reduce (per man) as the number of men increases. Its expensive to retrain one or two men.
My practice for maximum experience gain.
- merge depleted units so that the unit that needs retraining has the highest possible experience.
- Add it to the training queue.
- Just before end of turn, remove it from the retraining queue and add it back again.
EDIT: I am afraid the links above no longer work. The detailed research posted into the other forum has been lost. I posted some more comments in the other forum in response to another question. The following says much the same as I said above but maybe its clearer.
---------------
Quote:
I proved that retraining can have two outcomes:
- Replacements come in with 0 experience
- Replacements come in with average of exiting men (lets say exp = 2)
In your 80 man 2exp unit there are an estimated 160 experience points among your 80 men. If 40 more arrive with 0 exp you now have 120 men with 160 exp between them. Average is probobly now 1exp.
Yet if the second outcome occurs you would gain 40men each with 2exp..thus now have a unit of 120 men with 240exp....ie 2exp unit still.
I can ensure the second outcome each time. Just before end of turn, clear the training queue, then put the units back in training again. Doesnt make sense but it works.
Merge troops. If you have two equite units in a stack just click and hold, drag the card of one onto the other, and release. The units merge. You dont change the underlying experience of the men but depending upon which unit gets the best men you can sometimes see experience change on the unit cards.
By mastering these two techniques you can develop well skilled troops quite quickly. Just merge so the units that enter training are highly experienced then ensure the replacements also come in at that skill.
Hope this helps.
End Quote
-------------------
Good luck.
My question is not directly related to unit re-training costs - but - it does have to do with costs related to unit upkeep. If this question belongs elsewhere, I apologize.
Having said the above... ...
Following a battle, does a reduced number of soldiers in a unit have any impact on the upkeep cost that is routinely extracted each turn?
For example: I purchase a 40-man Hastati unit that has an upkeep cost of D150 per turn. This unit enters battle and comes away with 20 men left alive. Does this reduced size unit still cost me D150 per turn or is it somehow pro-rated down? (I recognize that if I retrain/restore the unit back to full strength that I can expect a full upkeep cost each turn).
To any and all - your comments & input is appreciated.
^LuckyDog Trojan
Yes. The smaller unit will cost less in wages.
yah know, all of this i've read is just a tad fishy. There are some valid assumptions and rationalizations made...but, seriously, i haven't seen any 'confirmation' about any really in any conclusion. Yes, ships don't lose experience on retraining. EVERYONE knows that. I certainly don't think that translates to using it to confirm land unit retraining....or that crap about rehealing "adversely" affecting anything. As for that comment about "modding" a unit and it "suffered heavy losses" isn't exactly a controlled experiment. Sure, if you said you'd modded it so it suffered casualties without making any kills then i might buy the anecdote.
As it stands i think there's alot more work needing to be done before people start extrapolating on unconfirmed reports. I totally want to prove myself wrong here, but as it stands i have a hypothesis:now...it's not a theory till i can prove it or not. But it's something i'll take pains to pay attention to from now on...not only pay attention but experiment. But, i swear i'm going to be a bit pissed off if i spend all that time and be right about all my assumptions.
- 1) ships are bugged. a severely depleted ship with 3 gold chevrons won't lose chevrons when retrained. This isn't speculation. it's pure cold hard fact i don't think anyone here is debating. it's just silly to assume land units are the same, especially when training a ship from a city with pantheon of mars gives it no base experience boost. I believe this is the exception that proves the rule.
2) post battle healing will have the computer remembering the recently dead soldiers' prior battle experience and adjusts the final chevron display accordingly for the unit
3) retraining does not increase in cost for experience, but upgrades
4) retraining will affect experience average in land units - which is why retraining in cities with mars temples doesn't drain chevrons over time
5) retraining a low strength unit is more cost effective than retraining many units with less casualties, but it has nothing to do with experience/upgrades - it's just the way the math works (dunno the exact name one would use but obviously it's not a linear line) ...btw, i swear there's a bug in the game where some retraining costs are just silly
I swear by Brutii. I can have a general with 4 healers (priestess, physician, herbalist and chirugeon lastly - not sure if healing stack tho. that's why i clicked on this thread in hopes of answering)
I swear by Brutii. I can have an awesome temple of Mars and not worry about retraining units that much...at least they won't suffer too much retraining drop in chevrons...
BTW, I agree wholeheartedly with Severous. I swear on my grandfather's grave that i've had repetitive riots in cities with peasants trained from a mars temple where you KNOW they never got any experience or loss thereof in battles, and top that off with a plague or two, and you'll notice. YOU WILL NOTICE. that retraining in a city without a mars temple that those unbloodied peasants will gradually drop in experience. This happened over many games over many years...and that's the one thing i'm without doubt about. I think i have the right to extrapolate that to other memories, less clear, about front line troops being retrained as nearby non-mars cities and discovering after a while that those stacks never really gained MUCH experience as compared to stacks retraining from pantheon of mars cities.
actually, after a bit of testing i started to suspect that only peasants are affected properly...in the resulting state of pissed offedness i decided to jump ship over to EB total mod. byeee. lol