Age of Vikings and Fanatics: Total war

A mod focusing on viking age as well as the other interesting wars that happened at the same time.

This post will be updated with details about progress of the mod.
- Research: 47 %
- Planning tech trees & units: 72 %
- Campaign map 17 %
- Buildings: 0 %
- Units: 0 %
- Testing: 0 %
- Planned release: probably July, August or September, earlier if more join the team

THE MOD TEAM RIGHT NOW
- LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix - project leader/campaign map maker/skinner/unit editor
- Captain-Tiguris - project leader/skinner/unit editor
- The Apostate - chief of research
- skeletor - skinner/unit editor
- ScionTheWorm - skinner/unit editor
- King Ragnar - researcher/skinner - not confirmed yet

Time:
=====
Starting date is 843 (Verdun treaty, which split up the Frankish empire into 3 parts), ending date is 1099 AD (the first crusade takes Jerusalem).

Focus/Background: :knight: :medievalcheers:
=================
The time when power over Europe and the Middle east was shared between the three superpowers the Frankish empire, the Byzantine empire and the Baghdad khaliphate is nearly over. The Frankish empire has been divided between the heirs of Charlemagne, the Byzantine empire has only just survived the muslim jihad and the schisms with the catholic church, and the muslims of the Baghdad khaliphate have now been split up in many smaller khaliphates and have lost their will to expand, and as a result, let their armies be weakened.

This is the perfect time for new tribes to establish kingdoms - or even empires. While the pagan vikings battle for the supreme control over Scandinavia, Denmark and other parts of Northern Europe (including the British Isles, Russia and the northern coasts of the Holy roman empire and France), Magyars and Bulgars are threatening to sack the once mighty Byzantine empire. At the same time in the Mediterranean area, North African pirates conduct raids similar to the viking raids, occupying among other places Sicily and threaten the Pope himself. Can the vikings hope to win a battle against more organized, richer enemies in the long term? Will the formerly great catholic empires survive the storm of raids and conquests and the fury of the norsemen? Will the byzantine empire survive attacks from all directions - both from their former catholic allies, from magyars, from slavic peoples moving in from the steppes to the east, and from Muslims? Can the peaceful eastern muslims survive the growing power of the pope and his will to create a Christian crusader kingdom in Jerusalem? For this is also the time of increasing religious fanatism - al-murabitin will try to conquer more of Spain, the kingdom of Asturia try to push back the moors into North Africa, and in the end of the 11th century, the very first crusade is launched.

The focus of the mod will be vikings and invasion of Britain and colonization of Russia. However in order to put the vikings into a historically correct context it's in my opinion necessary to display the rest of Europe, as many decisions to the south affected the situation to the north. And including the more southern areas also gives the mod another bonus. The southern nations have as a matter of fact a history nearly as interesting as, or even more interesting than, that of the vikings. This period is an often neglected one, which is a pity, considering that it's a time that's very well suited for a game/mod - there is a balance in power between the nations, and almost anything can happen.

Factions:
=======
REAL FACTIONS
- Norway - pagan
- Sweden - pagan
- Denmark - pagan
- Rus - orthodox
- Normandy - catholic
- Saxons - catholic
- Scots - catholic
- Irish - catholic
- Welsh - catholic
- France - catholic
- Holy roman empire - catholic
- Kingdom of Lotharingia - catholic
- Kingdom of Asturia - catholic
- Papal state - catholic
- Magyars - pagan
- Bulgars - orthodox
- Khazars - jewish
- Byzantine empire - orthodox
- Abbassids - muslim
- Al Andalus - muslim
- (and of course the Rebels)

Some units that'll be included:
======================
- Cavalry: Szekely heavy cavalry, Szekely horse archers, Feudal knights, Royal knights, Norman knights, Khazar royal cavalry, Druzhina cavalry, Boyars, Katapraktoi, Mamluk light cavalry, Camel warriors.
- Swordsmen: Swordsmen huscarles, Celtic swordsmen, Berserkers, Joms vikings, Slavic infantry, Feudal foot sergeants, Varangian mercenaries, Militia swordsmen
- Militia: Town watch, Urban militia, Urban guard.
- Axemen: Axemen huscarles, Varangian axemen.
- Spearmen: Fyrdmen.
- Siege weapons: Ballista, catapult, trebuchet.
- Missiles: Geneose mercenary crossbowmen, Welsh longbowmen, Welsh mercenary longbowmen.

Field combat: :duel: :charge:
=============
General's units will be extremely small, if possible only around 5 men or so but 20-50 for the faction leader.

Battle speed will be slow and infantry dominated except in the cases of skilled cavalry factions like the muslim factions and the magyars. The late cavalry units will also be more powerful and reduce the importance of the infantry again. Only special units like berserkers will use horde formation, all others will use line. The following classes of units will be included: spearmen, halberdiers (few), swordsmen, axemen, light cavalry, medium/heavy cavalry, cavalry archers (few), camels (muslim factions only), archers, crossbowmen, javelinmen.

The short spear spearmen will be modelled with normal formation. All spearmen with medium or long spears will be modelled using the phalanx formation. Balancing will be like this: if a spear unit engages swordsmen for a short time, the spearmen will inflict more casualties due to maintaining formation. Very low morale swordsmen can even be routed by them. Medium and high morale swordsmen (pretty much all non-militia) will soon break the formation of the spearmen and then the spearmen will be chanceless and quickly routed/killed. If sword meets spear the swords win in the long term, but spearmen can be more effective kill/death ratio-wise for holding a line a short period of time. Spearmen will have anti-cavalry bonus.

Halberdiers will appear very late. They will require high technology level and be modelled with normal formation. They'll perform well versus both spears and swords but be slightly weaker than swords during prolonged combat. They will be heavily armored and therefore very, very slow. As I said, halberdiers will be so high-tech and have so many training turns that they'll be rare on the battlefields.

Pikemen will only appear as rebels/brigands in Switzerland. They'll be based on R:TW pikemen with low attack and defense but effectiveness vs cavalry due to their very long spears.

Swordsmen will appear as the main battlefield unit. They'll have good defense but lower attack and charge stats, especially when they're heavily armored. Lighter swordsmen will be opposite but still not as good attackers as axemen.

Axemen will be quite rare but be low-tech and thus appear early, however 2 turns training for most of them and very low defense (thus very easily killed in action) will limit the amount of them that'll appear on the battlefields. Axemen will have minus bonus against cavalry.

Light cavalry will be of two types. 1. The militia/untrained cheap cavalry will just be like a weaker form of heavy cavalry. The central Europeans never implemented much high-quality light cavalry in this period, and most "light" cavalry in those armies were almost to be considered "failed attempts" at making a heavy cavalry force. 2. The professional light cavalry of the muslim factions and magyars (Hungarians) will have an anti-cavalry bonus and be very effective vs slower cavalry. This light cavalry is light by choice and specialists at fighting that way.

Medium/heavy cavalry is the cavalry intended for killing infantry. The Byzantines will have the fearsome cathapracts almost from start, but most others will have to wait long until they get hold of such beasts. They will instead stick with a medium cavalry with less armor but in return stronger charge due to lighter weight and slightly higher speed.

Cavalry archers will be rare (due to training time of 2 turns, low defense stats and restriction to only the muslims, khazars and magyars), but important key troops for those who can recruit them. Some will also be available as mercenaries, but hard for the European factions to get hold of until they reach far enough south/east/southeast.

Camels will have "frightens cavalry" attribute and also an anti-cavalry fighting bonus and a desert combat bonus. However they are slow and will therefore not perform well against faster light cavalry that can isolate and surround them.

Archers will appear early, from start. Archer quality will improve with building upgrades. The Welsh will have their famous longbowmen almost from start and they'll also appear as mercenaries there. Crossbowmen will appear later and also as mercenaries, near Genoa (genoese crossbowmen). Pavise crossbowmen will appear very late, and require 2 or 3 training turns. Their slow speed makes them less suited for skirmishing and are safest kept behind the line unlike archers which are faster. Some archers will be faster than the average archers too, for example bulgarian brigands which will appear as mercenaries in the area north of Constantinople.

Javelinmen will be cheap and some will use spear and javelin in combination. Most nations won't use the javelinmen much though, as they are partly outdated - at least as missile troops - compared to archers with their longer distance. Bulgars and magyars will have some javelinmen of better quality.

Sieges and assaults:
===============
Cities will have these levels of defenses: wooden pallisade (1 turn siege, 200 florins), wooden wall (2 turns siege, 600 florins), large wooden wall (1200 florins, 4 turns siege, possible to move on top of the wall, can use towers and saps to destroy it), stone wall (4000 florins, 6 turns siege), epic stone walls (8000 florins, 10 turns siege, Constantinople-like walls).

Forts will, if possible, exist in different shapes. Fortified camp (1 siege turns), Wooden fort (2 siege turns), Stone fort (5 siege turns), Citadel (10 siege turns). Forts will be much cheaper than city walls to build, perhaps costs should be 50 florins, 200 florins, 600 florins and 1200 florins, respectively. (If this isn't possible, the standard R:TW fort will be used, with 3 turns siege time.)

This will force the player to try and defend approaches to cities rather than cities, making it easier to lose - and take - the smaller and less important cities. Later, the player will however feel forced to fortify his most important cities.

Strategy: :duel: :charge: :end:
=========
- 0 turns build time for militia and untrained, very weak units.
- 1 turn build time for most regular units.
- 2-3 turns build time for elite units or others that historically required much training.
- This will prevent armies from consisting purely of elite units.

- Pope: Pope will hand out orders/suggestions/missions to the major catholic factions (HRE, France, Lombard league). The pope is not very powerful at this time so he can't reach the other catholics well. If you play a major catholic faction and become too powerful, the pope will excommunicate you and after that there's no way back - the other major catholic factions will become your enemies.

- Vikings will start with easily available good units. Catholic and other factions will get better units later, but in some cases be in pretty difficult positions from start. Vikings and fatimids will have double movement points for most of their ships.

- Byzantines, Abbassids and Khazars and others who historically relied on mercenaries will need mercenaries much here too, by restricting traditional recruitment in different ways. Their economy will allow them to hire many mercenaries.

- City levels: village, town, large town, city, large city. All factions will be able to construct all city levels, although vikings and others will have very slow growth compared to others, and therefore will probably not build many large cities.

NEWS UPDATE May 4, 2005
====================
A first, temporary concept map for province distribution has been drawn. This map is NOT the final plan for provinces. The map does NOT show which faction will own which province from start, only where the province borders will be. I made it in a few minutes so it's not pretty, but should give you an idea of how the map will probably be in terms of province distribution, map edge positions and so on. This tempory, first sketch of a map features around 150-160 provinces. As more research is made, I might feel it's necessary to change parts of this map. ALSO NOTE... that victory condition will probably be changed to 30 provinces instead of 50.

--- REMOVED - OUTDATED ---

NEWS UPDATE
===========
Factions list updated. See first post.

These factions will be represented as rebels:
- Polans/Polish
- Almoravids
- Pechenegs
- Iceland
- Middle frankish empire
- Mercians
- Various smaller viking empires already existing at the starting date
- Serbia
- Croatia
- (maybe) Khwarazm
- Volga-bulgars

If it starts in 843 the kingdoms of the Picts and Scots should both be Catholic, and are both ruled by one monarch - Cinaed MacAilpin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spongly

If it starts in 843 the kingdoms of the Picts and Scots should both be Catholic, and are both ruled by one monarch - Cinaed MacAilpin.

---

Ok, I have only just begun the research, so your help is very welcome. Should scots and picts really be a single faction too?

After 843, they were. Pics disappeared quickly after this date. I also think they concerted to christianism way before 843, but I may be wrong on that

Ok. They're probably best represented as scots owning most of the territory but one or two provinces being rebels... I'll have a closer look at that soon. I'll start researching and deciding about factions very soon, then I'll fix the campaign map bit by bit.

Here's a slightly more pretty map. This is the first version of the campaign heights map, which will generate the landscapes. This is still work in progress, but could give you an idea of which parts of the world will be included on the map - the map edges are positioned where they'll be in the final mod.

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y1...p-heights2.jpg

NEWS - 2005-05-06
===============
1. FACTIONS
Factions have been decided now. Khazars will be kept, Polish will be represented as rebels. The reasons are the following:
- Khazar was a strong, united khaganate at the time.
- Historically, Poland wasn't united until long after the starting date. In fact, the Polish kingdom which was created long after the starting date was also eliminated shortly afterwards. Not until after the ending date of the mod did a strong Polish kingdom arise.
- Khazars means introducing another culture, which should make things more interesting.
- Khazars have interesting horse units and haven't been included in many games/mods before, so it'd be a nice change to play them.
- The Holy roman empire experienced it's strongest period in 900 AD, something that'll be represented in the mod if the Poland area is rebel-owned from start.
- Not having Khazars as a faction will allow Abbassid khaliphate and Novgorod to grow too strong.
- It is probably possible to make a mod to this mod that can remove Khazar and add Poland, so what I decide now doesn't matter that much.

2. FACTION DESCRIPTIONS
The research phase has begun and here are faction descriptions/plans for 7 of the factions.

Scots
=====
- Description: The Scots orginate from a tribe called the "Scotti" that lived in Hibernia, or Ireland. As long as the Romans stayed in Britain and represented a great threat to both Picts and Scots, the two people fought alongside each other, carrying out numerous raids and attacks on Roman positions. When the Romans left, Picts and Scots became rivals. From around 300 AD to 843 AD they fought a series of wars. A notable event during this period of violence was when the Scottish King Fergus in 500 AD invaded part of the Pictish territory in modern Scotland, establishing the kingdom of Dal Riada. However the Scots were often defeated by the fierce Picts and on several occasions Dal riada was ruled by Picts. This changed around 800 AD, when the Vikings started their raids on the British isles, primarily on the eastern coast where the Picts lived. The Picts were soon faced with a hopeless two-front war, and in a decisive battle in 839, the Picts were utterly defeated. During the coming five years, a period of several short reigns of many kings followed, until in 843 AD, when the new king of Dal riada, Cinaed Mac Ailpin, through bloodlines could easily claim the throne of the Pictish kingdom, thus uniting Picts and Scots again, although the Picts being the smaller group were eventually assimilated. The Scottish position in modern Scotland was strengthened while the Scottish positions in northern Ireland were assimilated by larger Irish tribes and viking invasions. Even though the Scottish position is quite strong at this time after the uniting of the two tribes, the viking raids and the strength of Saxons and other tribes further south will offer a tough challenge for the Scottish leader. They have an advantage in that they only have one front and quite defensible highland provinces, but their provinces are poor and can't support an army large enough to challenge the stronger factions to the south unless they expand aggressively from start. In the long term, the rising faction of Normandy will become a great threat too.
- Starting characters: King (Cinaed MacAilpin).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: The Scotland area will consist of Dal riada (on the west coast), Northern Scotland, Middle Scotland and Southern Scotland. The latter three will need better names, and the correct capitals of the provinces must be researched. The Scots will from start own all of these provinces, but their army is weak and they barely have more than what's needed to maintain public order. The provinces are also poor, which requires a fast strike south if they are to improve their strategical, long-term strength which will be needed against the Vikings.
- Army: celtic warriors, highland clansmen, elite clansmen, good spearmen. Little and weak cavalry as long as they only own provinces in Scotland, but if they move south and conquer richer lands they'll be able to afford the support and training costs for better cavalry.

Irish
=====
- Description: The population in Ireland is mostly celtic, having lived on the island since the 1st century BC or earlier. Having originally been followers of pagan druidic religions, they were in 432 AD converted to Christianity by St. Patrick. From then and during the coming centuries the island prospered economically, culturally and technologically. But this mostly peaceful scenario was ended in the early 9th century, when Viking raids begun shaking the island and it's population. Apart from raids against monasteries and towns, some attempts at conquest were also made. In 831 the viking Thorgest sailed up the Shannon and established a kingdom in the Ulster and Connacht regions. Historically he was defeated by Malachy, King of Meath, who then proceeded by defeating another viking army at Sciath Nechtain, but that was not the end of the viking terror, which continued for some centuries. In 852 Olaf the White and Ivar Beinlaus conquered the area around modern Dublin and founded Dublin (although some sources indicate the city already existed under the name of Eblana). In 1014 AD the Irish won an important victory over the Norwegian viking Sigurd, who was defeated and killed in the battle of Clontarf, but at the cost of the Irish King Brian Boru dying too. The viking claims to the throne of Ireland stopped shortly afterwards, only to replaced by claims from the new Norman rulers of Britain. The Irish have a fine tradition of celtic warriors but their isolated position has made the need for a strong army limited, something that is gradually changing around 834 AD when the Viking raids are beginning en masse. The Irish must take up their old warrior tradition and strengthen their army in order to be able to withstand this terror - and perhaps also use that power to conquer new strategic positions. But from start, their main concern is the kingdom of the viking Thorgest, which must be taken if the Irish want a united Ireland, or Éire, as they call their island.
- Starting characters: King (Malachy).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: Ireland will consist of 4 provinces - Ulster (northern Ireland - ?), Connacht (western Ireland - Limerick), Leinster (southeast Ireland -
Dubh Linn), Munster (southwest Ireland - Cork). The Irish will from start own Munster and Leinster, whereas the rebel family member Thorgest and his
vikings will control Ulster and Connacht.
- Army: non yet decided. Celtic warriors and good swordsmen will be important. The bonnachts and gallowglasses of M:TW will perhaps be included.

Saxons
=====
- Description: The saxons, the angli and the jutes invaded Britain in the 5th century following the roman withdrawal, and came to establish the strongest kingdoms in the area until the time of the viking invasion. When the Danish vikings started invading the island around 800 AD, the Saxons offered the strongest resistance, from 834 AD under the leadership of the famous Alfred the Great, who, historically, defeated the Danish viking Cuthrum of Danelagen (or the Danelaw) in the battle of Edington and forced a ceasefire which stopped the Danish expansion and created stability on the island for a while and eventually led to the Danes being thrown out of the British isles. But that was not the end of their troubles. More vikings would try to claim the throne of Britain, including Norwegians and Normans (Normandy was created by vikings) in 1066 AD. The saxons have a strong army consisting both of viking mercenary huscarles and local recruits such as fyrdmen, and it is for a good reason that they kept control over much of Britain up to 1066 AD. Perhaps, under a few generations of unbroken strong military leadership they could have gone even further...?
- Starting characters: King (Alfred the Great).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: The Saxons are concentrated to the southern and eastern parts of Britain in a tough strategical position. However much of the land to the north will be owned by rebels (mercians, northumbrians etc.) but some will also be owned by the Danes, and there's also the Welsh with their skilled longbowmen if the Saxons move even further. The position is made even more problematic by the fact that it's surrounded by seas and the Saxon navy is no match for the viking longboats. Any expansion attempts will mean starting wars with several factions and unless one or two can be eliminated quickly the Saxons will have many tough centuries of fighting ahead of them. It isn't likely they'll be eliminated by the pressure - at least not in the short term - but they'll be forced to fight defensively for a long time which could weaken their strategic strength. And the many rebel territories to the north are probably easier for Danes than Saxons to capture so they probably won't be of much help.
- Army: Fyrdmen will constitute the main body of the Saxon army, but they'll be supported by huscarles swordsmen and axemen forming the elite, and a mounted nobility which will get stronger as the campaign proceeds.

Welsh
====
- Description: Since the centuries before Christ, Wales has been inhabited by Celtic tribes, among others the famous Silurii, who under the leadership of Caradoc defied the romans after Claudius's invasion of Britain. Wales was eventually captured, but the romans found the terrain difficult and the lack of agricultural land made their interest in the area limited, even though there were possibilities for gold mining and trade. When the romans withdrew, the saxons quickly conquered most of England, but had to stop when reaching Wales, because they couldn't penetrate the difficult terrain. Their expansion however isolated the Welsh from the other Celts in Britain and during the coming centuries their culture developed independently of the other Celts, resulting in a special language, special traditions and a unique warfare supported by the famous Welsh longbow. During this period, Wales was converted to Christianity and existed as a number of petty kingdoms. Not until in 820 AD did the Welsh tribes unite, under the leadership of Rhodri Mawr, also known as Rhodri the Great, who historically ruled the kingdom until in 877 AD. Having held off many invasion attempts from vikings and saxons, he was eventually defeated by vikings and had to flee to Ireland, where he stayed for a year before returning and attempting to reestablish his kingdom. However, weakened by the conflicts, he was killed in a battle against the Mercians. Wales only experienced unity occasionally during the coming centuries, partly due to the tradition of dividing the land between heirs, but remained independent from England until in the end of the 13th century.
- Starting characters: King (Rhodri the Great), Queen (Angharad).
- Religion: Catholic.
- Surroundings: Wales consists of difficult terrain that will be very defensible, but lack agricultural and trade resources. Perhaps the gold mining can help the Welsh, but they must also develop their army and form a professional, united army incorporating the terribly effective longbowmen to support their comparatively weak infantry. The position next to saxons is problematic, but there are also Mercian (rebel) territories to the northeast that's up for grabs. However, the mercians are strong, and the Welsh will have to increase the strength of their army before they can hope to destroy the Mercians. Perhaps, striking the Mercians first will be the best way of preventing them from striking first? But this will in return put the Welsh next to the Danish vikings, who have an even stronger army than the saxons (although much of it is kept in Denmark).
- Army: celtic infantry of good quality (but slightly weaker than the catholic units, especially the elite) to support the incredible longbowmen (and before the longbowmen comes, standard archers of extra high quality). Cavalry are weak and few in number because the poor homelands can't support much cavalry, but if they conquer richer lands there's no reason why they wouldn't be able to form a heavy cavalry force.

Bulgars
=======
- Description: The Bulgars originally migrated into the Balkan area from the east. Having conquered settlements north of Constantinople, they have by 834 AD become a threat even for the mighty Byzantine Empire. The leadership of the faction has only 3 years ago been handed over to Malamir, who historically is known for ordering the conquest of Aegean Macedonia and aiding the Smolyans, living in Aegean Thrace, rebel against the Byzantines. Malamir is part of the feared Ugain clan, where among others the feared Krum are included. Krum had, only a few decades earlier, put fear into the hearts of the Byzantines by defeating them in the open and by besieging Constantinople itself (however, the formidable walls of the city, as in so many other cases, saved it). The Bulgars are as a people outnumbered by the local slavic population, and might therefore have trouble holding their provinces. However, their armies are quite strong, even compared to those of the Byzantine empire, and if they can hold their territory and defeat other rising empires in the area, including the kingdom of Serbia, they have a potential to create a larger empire unless they're exhausted by the conflict with the Byzantines.
- Starting characters: King (Malamir), General (Kav-Khan Isbul, to the south near Aegean Macedon area which is rebel controlled from start).
- Religion: Orthodox. Historically the bulgars converted to orthodox faith in 864 AD, but no such conversion is possible to implement so it's probably best to represent them as Orthodox from start.
- Surroundings: In the battles where the bulgars aided the Smolyans, fierce battles broke out near Philippi and Siar. The Smolyans lived in Aegean Thrace, which should probably be an own province. Serbia must be a province, populated by rebels called "Serbians", who will have a quite strong army to reflect how they could manage to defeat the bulgars. Historically, Malamir was defeated by the Serbians in a war from 839 to 842 (however, losses were limited and no Bulgarian land was lost). Moesia should perhaps be a province, as it was conquered by Malamir during his reign. There will perhaps also be a province called Bulgaria, that the bulgars will of course own from start.
- Army: Not yet decided, but slavic infantry will constitute the main body of the army. Some cavalry and archers will support, including the bulgarian brigands which will be some of the best early, short-range archers. The bulgars will also have good javelinmen.

Khazar
======
- Description: The Khazars, like the Bulgars, originate from the Gokturk empire which was split up in the early 7th century. The bulgars were split up between the volga, danube and black sea area, while the Khazars stayed on the steppes a formed a strong united khaganate (which was however unlike Bulgaria eliminated in the long term). The Khazars were allied to the Byzantines during a long period, during which they aided the Byzantines in fighting many wars: against the sassanids (this gave the Khazars and Byzantines control over the Georgia region), the first Khazar-Arab war (which ended with the Arabs being defeated in a battle outside the Khazar town of Balanjar) and the second Khazar-Arab war (resulting in an attempt to arrange a marriage between the warring parts, but the Khazar bride died or was killed - it's unclear which way it was - and it took some more time until peace was achieved). The Khazars originally had a shamanist religion centered around worship of the sky god Tengri and the less important gods Umay (fertility goddess), Kuara (thunder god) and Erlik (god of death), but they were later also influenced by Confucian ideas from China. Like the Scythians, the Khazar women took part in war and governing and held a high status. Around 800 AD the leading Khazars however converted to Judaism and during the coming centuries the people followed, therefore there are still remnants of pagan religion in these areas although the faction has a Jewish religion. The Khazars had a friendly relationship to the Novgorod Rus but after 800 AD hostilities broke out and historically the viking attacks in combination with the Byzantines breaking the long alliance between Byzantines and Khazars led to the fall of the khaganate.
- Starting charachters: King (Bulan?).
- Religion: Jewish
- Surroundings: The Khazars own the area northeast of the Black Sea, including Georgia and areas next to the Caspian sea, including Armenian territory. They also own the Crimea and the Kiev area (however the latter with low public order and weak garrison), and the heavily fortified city of Sarkel at the Don basin. To the south they have the Khaliphate as neighbors, and to the west their allies the Byzantines. Most of the land between Khazar and Novgorod is rebel owned (including the Pechenegs to the east between Volga and the Ural mountains and the Volga-bulgarians next to Volga), but this doesn't mean the Khazars will have an easy time expanding as they wish. The steppes are hard to control due to brigands, large distances which lower public order, and long frontlines which will require a large army or tactical genius if the Khazars are to succeed in expanding much. A strike on the khaliphate to the south would give the Khazars control over some more stratetic lands, but the khaliphate has a strong army and this will in the long term make the Khazars rivals to the Byzantines - can they really afford to break such a strong alliance and make the Byzantines their enemies?
- Army: Khazar royal cavalry, some horse archers and muslim auxiliaries (Arsiyah) of Alan and Khwarazmian origin. Apart from the standing army of the leader (the Bek), the Khazars could also muster numerous levies in times of war. The Khazars have good cavalry but most of their infantry are temporarily recruited levies and/or auxiliaries so they can't rely much on their infantry line in battle. They also have formidable siege engines, for example used in the first Khazar-Arab war, which were probably kept after that. Pecheneg and perhaps also some varangian (Rus vikings) mercenaries were also used.

Magyars
======
- Description: Historically the Magyars moved into the Carpathian Basin around 830 AD, completing the conquest of the area in 896 AD. In 834 AD their empire is concentrated west of the Dnjepr and east of the Carpathian, owning little useful land but with a strong army of skilled horsemen that can support their infantry well. Their conversion to a catholic faith historically led to a good relationship to the Pope, perhaps because they challenged the orthodox power in the Balkans area and thus aided the Pope in the schism fights between catholic and orthodox faith.
- Starting characters: King (?).
- Religion: Catholic
- Surroundings: The magyars own no useful ground at the start, but a strong army, which they'll have to use to conquer some rebel provinces and establish a strong position in the Carpathian Basin area. They'll own Moldavia, and the Carpathia area is up for grabs. To the south there are the Bulgars, but there is a rebel buffer zone between them so the magyars don't need to worry about the Bulgars in a while, as the Bulgars have better provinces to conquer to the south - including Greece. The magyars have relatively little to worry about in terms of military opposition from start - to the north there are mostly rebels - but in the long term their position is problematic, and will most likely result in a conflict with the Holy roman empire, the Bulgars, the Byzantines and perhaps also the population of the Italian peninsula. The area north of the Balkans and south of Poland is perhaps the least strategic position there is at this time when not only the southern, but also the northern front is subject to raids and conquests from strong kingdoms.
- Army: In this period, the Szekely ethnic group constituted the elite of the Hungarian army, which of course also consisted of other ethnic groups in the area. The Szekely horse archers and heavy cavalry will be strong units in the early campaign.

NEWS UPDATE May 8th 2005
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Work on campaign map has started. Most provinces in Scandinavia, British Isles, Spain and North Africa have already been decided. More work is needed before provinces of central Europe, Asia minor, Middle east and eastern steppes have been decided - but for those areas, unlike those I have now completed, I'll probably use almost the same provinces as in M:TW.

I decided to throw away the map I've shown part of above, and restart the work on the campaign map, mainly because I want a different "density" of provinces, i.e. I want greater distances between the provinces in British Isles and other areas where there are many cities. The result of this enlargement of the map is that North Africa and the steppes will be harder to conquer and conquer - which is another thing I wanted to achieve. Those who play this mod are supposed to have great problems conquering and holding such areas that were historically hard to conquer and hold, and it should usually be more beneficial to move in another direction when expanding. Another result of this is that you can't simply conquer everything till your reach the map edge and then eliminate one front because the map happens to end there - it's now unlikely you'll ever conquer the provinces closest to the map edge and you can expect trouble there so you'll need to keep troops to guard that area too.

The map will probably also use different terrain, climate etc. than the vanilla R:TW map. The border between snow and no snow for the winter turns will be drawn further north than in vanilla R:TW (but high mountains will still have snow in the winter), to reflect the real situation. There was a small ice age in the 14th century but this is the middle 9th to late 11th century so the snow shouldn't reach that far south.

Screenshots for the campaign map from it's very first alpha state can probably be expected in two weeks.

Sounds like you've put a lot of effort into the mod so far, great job. Let me know if you need any help.

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Originally Posted by roysparky

Sounds like you've put a lot of effort into the mod so far, great job. Let me know if you need any help.

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Yeah, I'd appreciate any help I can get ~:). What skills do you have? Skinning and/or modelling? Historian/researcher? Coding?

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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

Ok, I have only just begun the research, so your help is very welcome. Should scots and picts really be a single faction too?

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Yep, they should be called "The Kingdom of Alba" really. The Picts don't really disappear so much as they and the DalRiadan Scots unite into a single kingdom, in fact originally under the King of the Picts, Cinaed MacAlpin. The issue of language is a weird one - both people seem to have spoken Gaelic by this point, possibly under the influence of the Church in the area.

As to religion, the Picts were actually probably Christian from about the year 400 onwards. Bede tells us that St Ninian was the first to convert them.

I am quite happy to join the team as a researcher.

Did my degree in history specialising in late antiquity and early medieval period and have a big library covering the period.

Am particularly knowledgeable on the Byzantine and Viking worlds, less so on Islam.

No skill whatsoever as a modeller/skinner but am happy with changing the data export files so can help out there.

General comments:

Magyars in 843 are pagan and remain so until 1000.

Bulgars are also pagan but christianised in 867.

The Danes, Poles and Rus (which is a better term than Novgorod) were still Pagan in 843 and remained so til the later 10th century.

It is highly debatable how Jewish the Khazars were - certainly some of their khagans were converted but the great majority of the population were either Pagan, Muslim or Christian - however I do love the idea of building synagogues...

Conversion is thus a big issue in this period and as there is no way the AI will ever switch religions you will end up with half of your factions starting and remaining pagan.

This is fine if you want a short campaign with lots of different pagan temples to add variety.

However if you want the mod to be open-ended and allow development into the High Middle Ages you would be much better starting at 1000 - at which point almost everyone but the peoples around the Baltic have converted.

While 843 is an era of fragmentation, in 1000 you have much more solid and organised states (although Bulgaria would have to go - disappearing in 1014).

You also have no Fatimids in 843 and pretty much the whole Muslim world except for al-Andalus is part of the Abassid Caliphate - which the AI being what it is will end up swallowing everything just as Egypt does in RTW - whereas in 1000 you have Abassid, Fatimid and Umayyad Caliphates each of which is of roughly equal power.

Re map I can't see much value in including the North Atlantic and Northern Scandinavia - which will just be dead space - just as much of the north and east of the RTW map is.

Personally prefer the Europa Barbarorum or Rome Total Realism maps which do not go as far north but do include Persia - where a lot more of interest is happening.

With an eastern-stretched map you also get to include the Turks as opponents for the Byzantines (again in 843 these are a minor confederation of tribes in Central Asia but in 1000 they control an empire covering much of Persia and the Indus Valley).

Don't think the papacy should be a state in this period (for much of it the Popes were corrupt puppets of the Roman nobility) and of course the Lombard League does not come into existence until the late-1100's (in 843 North Italy was part of the short-lived kingdom of Lotharingia which stretched from Rome to the North Sea and which represents another problem for an 843 start as it disintegrates within a generation).

Will you have a Marian reform event? - strikes me that the transition to the couched lance and crossbow which occurred in the early-mid 11th century would fit this (i.e. before the reform Frankish armies have relatively weak cavalry, after it they have real knights as well as crossbows and a better range of siege equipment - OTOH the Byzantines at about the same time would lose much of their Thematic troops and become more dependant on mercenaries).

Hi great idea.. but why have you listed the Danes as a chatholic nation as I recall we didn't become real chatholic until 1099! ~;)

As far as religion goes, could you not implement conversion in some other way?

For example, pagan temples give you various benefits, but after a fixed time period (like the Marian reform event) you get the option to build churches if you demolish the temples...the churches should give you big benefits to running a well organised and wealthy state in this period, so there should be some political incentive to convert....

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Originally Posted by The Apostate

I am quite happy to join the team as a researcher.

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You are very welcome, The Apostate!

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Originally Posted by The Apostate

- Magyars in 843 are pagan and remain so until 1000.
- Bulgars are also pagan but christianised in 867.
- The Danes, Poles and Rus (which is a better term than Novgorod) were still -Pagan in 843 and remained so til the later 10th century.
- It is highly debatable how Jewish the Khazars were - certainly some of their khagans were converted but the great majority of the population were either Pagan, Muslim or Christian - however I do love the idea of building synagogues...
- Conversion is thus a big issue in this period and as there is no way the AI will ever switch religions you will end up with half of your factions starting and remaining pagan.
- This is fine if you want a short campaign with lots of different pagan temples to add variety.
- However if you want the mod to be open-ended and allow development into the High Middle Ages you would be much better starting at 1000 - at which point almost everyone but the peoples around the Baltic have converted.
- While 843 is an era of fragmentation, in 1000 you have much more solid and organised states (although Bulgaria would have to go - disappearing in 1014).
- You also have no Fatimids in 843 and pretty much the whole Muslim world except for al-Andalus is part of the Abassid Caliphate - which the AI being what it is will end up swallowing everything just as Egypt does in RTW - whereas in 1000 you have Abassid, Fatimid and Umayyad Caliphates each of which is of roughly equal power.

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The starting date has been a big issue that I've thought a lot about. I know that some of the attributes I've given to factions aren't true until some time after the starting date, but it was my intention to make a mod that approximately describes the entire era from starting date to ending date. Moving the starting date forward to 1000 AD is out of the question because that removes the focus from the viking era and there are already mods about those periods. I've chosen a compromise with a starting date in 843 to still be able to keep part of the dark age focus but without starting so early that normans and others would be so far out of the period that they couldn't be factions at all. This way, I can include normans and others even though they're slightly out of the period, in order to make the mod more interesting.

Some of your data above has led me to change my opinion, for example danes and Rus will be pagan, and Fatimids will be Al Andalus. Rebels in North Africa will be very strong, and the Abbassids will have very limited strength early. I'll keep testing until I find a solution that means they won't explode in power like R:TW Egyptians. Novgorod will be called Rus. Hungarians will also be pagan then.

However some things I don't think should be changed: Bulgars will be Christian in the game because 867 is so short after the starting date. The Khazars will be jewish just for the fun factor it adds to have another culture/religion in the game. I'll see if I can make their starting cities have pagan culture from start to give them a culture difference penalty to reflect that it was probably mostly the leaders who had converted, something that'll make the starting years harder for the Khazars. Conversion of any factions are as far as I know impossible to implement so that's why I've chosen to do it this way.

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Originally Posted by The Apostate

Re map I can't see much value in including the North Atlantic and Northern Scandinavia - which will just be dead space - just as much of the north and east of the RTW map is.

Personally prefer the Europa Barbarorum or Rome Total Realism maps which do not go as far north but do include Persia - where a lot more of interest is happening.

With an eastern-stretched map you also get to include the Turks as opponents for the Byzantines (again in 843 these are a minor confederation of tribes in Central Asia but in 1000 they control an empire covering much of Persia and the Indus Valley).

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The reason for this was explained in a news post above. Those provinces are not intended for the player to capture, but if he wishes he can. They being there means the player can't just reach a map edge and eliminate one front to get rid of all problems and need for troops there, then direct all troops in another direction. This means a border along a steppes or desert line will be hard to hold. Not much action will take place far out on the steppes in the mod, but they definitely fill a function in my opinion, by forcing the player to keep a constant defensive force there. North Africa and the steppes will be so spread out that they should really be impossible to hold. Another reason for the expansion of map to the north is the focus on vikings - both their raids and the internal fighting that occurred. The turks don't become interesting until 1000 AD and that's so long after the campaign start that they shouldn't be a faction, because of my decision to stick to 843-1099 but otherwise they'd definitely have a place, and I'd have changed the map with more to the east and less to the north.

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Originally Posted by The Apostate

Don't think the papacy should be a state in this period (for much of it the Popes were corrupt puppets of the Roman nobility) and of course the Lombard League does not come into existence until the late-1100's (in 843 North Italy was part of the short-lived kingdom of Lotharingia which stretched from Rome to the North Sea and which represents another problem for an 843 start as it disintegrates within a generation).

Will you have a Marian reform event? - strikes me that the transition to the couched lance and crossbow which occurred in the early-mid 11th century would fit this (i.e. before the reform Frankish armies have relatively weak cavalry, after it they have real knights as well as crossbows and a better range of siege equipment - OTOH the Byzantines at about the same time would lose much of their Thematic troops and become more dependant on mercenaries).

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I haven't planned any Marian reform yet so I haven't thought through the subject. If we stick to 843-1099, what reforms would be of interest?

It was my intention to represent the Papacy as a state in order to make "senate missions" and excommunication possible, but they aren't really more a state than the SPQR in vanilla R:TW is a state, it's just the only way to represent that. I agree that the Lombard league is out of the period (it was at the time of Barbarossa, wasn't it?), but I wanted a way of implementing the Italian city states as a strong faction enough to challenge the HRE. Rebels would just die too quickly and have no ability to retrain and strenghten their armies etc. It was my plan to have Lombard league as a methafor for this, just like the Greek cities in vanilla R:TW is a methafor for all the different greek city states - an emergency solution because there is the 20 factions limit. Perhaps they should be called "The Italian cities" instead of Lombard league?

I hope you're still interested in the mod despite these approximations of history I've been forced to make in order to be able to keep the time period 843-1099, which was the starting point when I decided to make this mod. It's my intention to stay as true to historical data as possible in all other aspects though, so a skilled historian is very much appreciated. In fact I believe the things I've mentioned here are the only diversions from real history needed, in practically EVERY other aspect there are no obstacles that I see that could prevent total realism.

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Originally Posted by Spongly

As far as religion goes, could you not implement conversion in some other way?

For example, pagan temples give you various benefits, but after a fixed time period (like the Marian reform event) you get the option to build churches if you demolish the temples...the churches should give you big benefits to running a well organised and wealthy state in this period, so there should be some political incentive to convert....

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I don't know about that. Aren't marian reforms triggered in all "roman" factions simultaneously? I haven't really though about marian reforms much for this mods, but this idea of yours seems interesting - perhaps possible to include.

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Originally Posted by tutankamon

Hi great idea.. but why have you listed the Danes as a chatholic nation as I recall we didn't become real chatholic until 1099! ~;)

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Sorry for that mistake, they'll be pagan in the mod ~:)

After some thinking I've come to the conclusion that I should probably try to add it so that factions can get their religion converted at different dates. Once I've fixed the campaign map and some of the basic unit editing I'll start looking at such features that would definitely add a unique flavor to this mod. But I'm eager to get a campaign map and some test units up quickly, I think it's easier to experiment once those basic details have been fixed.

Here's a temporary province and city list, The Apostate. In case you confirm your interest in helping with this mod, this is the first project I need help with from a historian. These things will be easy to change later even if I start coding with incorrect info here, but it'd be great to have an as accurate list as possible to start from when modelling the campaign map, to save work time etc.

Many of these cities were officially founded later than 843 but one can in some cases assume there were minor villages/towns in the area before that, however, other cities in these areas might have been of greater importance at the time, so the ones I've picked will probably in many cases have to be changed. I've also used much modern spelling for these names, I think it'd be better to use the old spelling if it's possible to find the old, local spelling and names for all these provinces and cities. I've written the list in this format: province_name - settlement_name, comments. We'll also need to fill the list with data regarding whether each settlement will be village,town, large town, city or large city from the start of the mod, as well as what resources and farm level the province should have.

NORWAY AREA
* Central Norway - Kaupang (position close to Oslo but further down the fiord)
* Trondelag - Trondheim
* Lofoten (both islands and part of the mainland, which is where Narvik is situated) - Narvik
* Northern Norway - Tromso
* Hafrsfjord (rebels) - Nord-Jaeren / Stafangr
* Finnmark (rebels) - Kirkenes, situated next to Barents Sea and modern Russian border

SWEDEN AREA
* Roslagen - Sigtuna
* Upland - Upsala
* Ostgothia - Visingso - BETTER CITY NEEDED (visingso is a small island in the lake in that province, whose southern part was used as a fortress - therefore not exactly a good settlement for this province)
* Waestrogothia - Skara
* Gotland - Visby - VISBY NOT BUILT AS AN OFFICIAL CITY AT THIS TIME, but one can assume there was a village/town there. It'll be a province poor in farming and trade of course, as it historically was until the time before the Hansa/Hanse (spelling?).
* Smaland - Kalmar - BETTER CITY NEEDED. THE PROVINCE IS HERE AS FOR STRATEGIC REASONS, TERRAIN IS HEAVY FOREST ETC. because this piece of land shouldn't be part of the Swedish holdings from start. The province name is also a modern one, a better suited old one would be appreciated.
* Samland? - ? - ALSO HERE FOR STRATEGIC REASONS. Any city or village name can do, preferably a city far to the north. This is the northernmost part of
* Halland? - ? - BETTER NAME NEEDED FOR THIS PROVINCE AT THIS TIME. I was considering to use Loedoese (Lödöse) as settlement for the province - at this time. I believe it was a minor trading center in Sweden through the rivers leading from Vaenern (Vänern), so it has stratetic significance even though it's importance might have been reduced later, when the leaders of Waestrogothia strengthened their control over the coastal area south of it and got better ways to the sea from Vaenern?

DENMARK AREA
* Skane - Lund - DON'T SURE IF SKANE WAS CALLED SKANE BACK THEN, AND THE CITY LUND WAS FOUNDED LATER, but one can assume there was at least some sort of settlement in the area. Better, older name for the settlement and province probably needed. Perhaps Lund wasn't among the more significant cities in this area either, so I'm open to better suggestions for settlement name for this province, that constitutes the southernmost part of modern Sweden.
* Zealland - Roskilde (the dot on the map is correctly located now)
* Holseta Land / or Nordfriesland? (in modern Schleswig-Holstein area) - Haithabu / or Hedeby, was the largest nordic city of the viking age according to my sources, therefore it should be a quite big city and not just a town or village.
* North Jutland (northern Jutland) - Viborg - better province perhaps name needed. Settlement will perhaps have good fortifications from start.
* East Jutland (better province name needed, East Jutland is an incorrect representation) - Jelling/Jellinge (the city dot is now correctly located)

ICELAND AREA
* Iceland - Reyjkjavik (village/town) - only one province, so name Iceland is given. However I'm not sure about existence of Reyjkjavik at that time, or the spelling for that part...

IRELAND AREA
I was planning to use the province names below, which are the same as the parts of modern Ireland. I believe it's the best way to split up Éire, because the borders of the viking-conquered areas were almost the same. For example Thorgest will own Ulster and Connacht from start. I'm not entirely sure about the cities though, especially not for Ulster, where I haven't even made any suggestion.
* Ulster - ?, I have no idea what city we should use for this province?
* Connacht (western Ireland) - Limerick (town)
* Leinster (southeast Ireland) - Dubh Linn (town)
* Munster (southwest Ireland) - Cork (village/town)

FINLAND AND BALTICUM AREA
* Karelia (west of Lake Ladoga but not blocking Baltic port for Novgorod province) - ?, I think Finland should be split up into more than one province because of the viking focus of the mod. This will of course be compensated by very low farm income etc. for each of the provinces - conquering them will probably require almost as much garrison cost as it'll contribute to economy.
* Finland (rest of Finland, pretty much) - ?, better name perhaps needed for province. Settlement needed.
* Soumissalmi - ? (village) Where does this place lie? I just heard the name, not sure where it is though. Is this a part of northern Finland? For strategical reasons I'd like to have Finland represented by 3 provinces - Finland, Karelia (with corrections if historical data contradicts these names etc.) and one more to the north.
* Livonia (Estonia and Latvia area) - ?, settlement name needed.
* Lithuania - ?, settlement name needed.

RUSSIA AREA
* Novgorod - Novgorod
* Kiev - Kiev
* Smolensk - ? WHERE PUT SMOLENSK? ACCORDING TO MY SOURCES BULGARIANS AIDED SMOLYANS VS THE BYZANTINES, aren't smolyans the people of Smolensk? Shouldn't that mean Smolensk is close to Bulgaria area? But M:TW map suggests they're further to the north... Help needed!
* Volga-Bulgaria - ?, settlement name needed
* Muscovy - not sure about this one, should it be included? Perhaps better provinces for steppes and Russia area should be used.
* 1 or 2 provinces probably needed between Kiev and Constantinople for Pechenegs and other tribes that had some significance in the area. I can't come up with a good province plan for that area though. Also see East Europe Area below...

STEPPES AREA
* The Crimea - ?, city needed
* Khazar - ?, city needed
* Georgia - ?, city needed
* ...other steppe provinces not planned, needs to be done. Khazar should own several provinces, not just one, so a good, historically relevant splitting up of the area into 1-3 provinces would be good

EAST EUROPE AREA
Many of these need an appropriate city (not sure about provinces either - especially not the Greece area):
* Volhynia? - ?
* Poland - ?
* Prussia? - ?
* Wallachia
* Carpathia
* Bulgaria - Bolgar
* Moldavia
* Macedonia - ?
* Athens? - ?
* Pelopponesse? - ?
* Croatia - ?
* Serbia - ?
* Hungaria? - ? - probably not good province name as hungarians were magyars then, or?
* Austria - ? also probably not very good...
* Bohemia - ?

GERMANY AREA
Same here (not sure about provinces either):
* Saxony - ?
* Pomerania?
* Bavaria - ?
* Swabia? - ?
* Tyrolia? - ?
* Switzerland? - ?
* Friesland? - ?
* Franconia? - ?

WALES AREA
Not very thoroughly researched, but here's a list of some provinces chosen from the M:TW-VI map. A total of 3 provinces is IMO perfect for the game representation of this area, but I don't know if I chose the best 3 provinces:
* Pouis? - ?
* Clwyd? - ?
* Guent? - ?

SCOTLAND AREA
Same as for Wales here...
* Dal riada (western Scotland) - ?
* Moray (northern Scotland) - ?
* Athfotla (middle Scotland) - ?
* Cyil (soutwest Scotland) - ?
* Fib (southern Scotland) - ?

ENGLAND AREA
Same as for Wales here, although I've slightly more control here I think (ahem... hope... ~D ):
* Northumbria - ? (northwest England)
* Beornice - York (east England)
* Mierce/Mercia - ? (middle England)
* West seaxe - ?
* Suth seaxe (southeast of West seaxe)
* Middle seaxe (below Mercia)
* East engle (east England south of Beornice)
* Cerniu - southwest England (is this one supposed to be Welsh-owned from start by the way?)

SPAIN AREA
these need to be checked too. Should Catalonia be a separate province or should I expand Aragon slightly? Which of the cities should I choose for Leon? The latter would be more strategically fun due to it's position at the coast, far away from the other provinces. Which provinces should be owned by Al Andalus and which by Kingdom of Asturia from start?
* Navarre - Pamplona (city)
* Leon - Leon, or Santiago de Compostela
* Portugal - Lissabon
* Andalusia - Sevilla
* Cordoba - Cordoba
* Granada - Granada
* Valencia - Valencia
* Castile - Toledo
* Catalonia - Barcelona
* Aragon - Zaragosa

FRANCE AREA
These provinces need so thorough checking... I did this way too quickly...
* Aquitaine - Bordeaux?
* ? - Orleans
* Ile de France? - Paris?
* Champagne - ?
* Burgundy - ?
* Normandy - ? I wouldn't mind having Normandy represented by more than 1 province in order to strengthen the normans somewhat, but I don't know what those provinces would be called then.
* Britanny - ?
* Flanders - ?
* Alsace - ?
* Toulouse - ?
* Provence - ?
* Lorraine? - ?

ITALY AREA
* Genoa - Genoa
* Venice - Venice
* Milan - Milan
* Tuscany - Florence
* Naples - (byzantine-controlled I believe) Naples
* Sicily (rebels) - Palermo?
* Papal states - Rome (owned by Pope)

NORTH AFRICA AREA
* Morocco - ?
* Algeria - ?
* Tunisia - Tunis
* Sahara - ?
* Libya - Tripoli
* Cyrenaica? - Barka
* Western Egypt - Siwa?
* Nile delta - Alexandria (large city)
* Egypt - Cairo (city) - better name probably needed. Entire Egypt area needs to be fixed, I think.
* Nubia/Abyssinia - ? (town) - although the map won't reach down to Nubia it'd probably be best to have a nubia province. Why? Because in order to get Nubia I'd have to move southern edge of map down and add LOADS of useless desert to the west. By having a fake Nubia a little too far north you can still make them affect the gameplay. However your historical expertise will have to decide if they're important enough to make it worth including them this way. My intention for the province was to have it as only recruit zone for abyssinian guard and/or nubian mercenaries and normally recruitable troops.
* Sinai - ?

ASIA MINOR AREA
* Constantinople - Constantinople (large city)
...the rest not planned yet... Georgia planned though (see steppes provinces). Need help here in order to know which provinces and cities were most important at the time.

MIDDLE EAST AREA
? Not planned yet, but Jerusalem and Antioch will be included. Baghdad also, of course. Province Arabia should have either Mecka or Medina as city, probably Medina unless we want to move the city slightly more north than it in reality is - something I personally don't mind for this or for Nubia, but you might not and besides if we can choose Medina and have it in correct position that's probably better. It also comes down to which city would have most significance at the time. Mecka was of course of religious importance but how were the two in terms of economical/strategical importance? Which one should be on the map to represent Arabia? I believe Mosul should also be one of the cities included in this area. Damascus too.

MEDITERRANEAN ISLANDS
* Baliares - ?
* Corsica - ?
* Sardinia - ?
* Siciliy - ?
* Cyprus - ?
* Crete - ?
* Rhodes - ?

This counts for a total of 123 provinces, plus approximately 20 in the areas that have not yet been planned.

I'll below post the map so we can discuss redrawing of some borders and you can download and draw notes on it in Paint or something to aid the discussion of these provinces and settlements. Put a black pixel for a settlement and a white pixel for a port. A province can be marked by either a red line around the province or by coloring the entire province in a unique color, then I'll understand what you mean.

https://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y1...p_regions2.gif

I ton't think you shuld use Oslo as a city. At startingdate, it was only a village (Oslo is celebrating it's 1000nd year this year. The largest city in this area war Kaupang (located a bit further down the fjord, on the west shore).
Kaupang was presumably the largest tradecenter in Norway before 1000ad.

google Kaupang ~:)

-Skel-

Ok, thanks, I've edited it now.

These maps might help you :

http://www.culturalresources.com/ima...lemagneBig.jpg

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big0800.htm#%20here

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Originally Posted by Meneldil

These maps might help you :

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Yes, thanks a lot. I'll edit the province list above when I've had a closer look at the maps and decided how they would best be converted into R:TW engine provinces.

NEWS UPDATE May 11th 2005
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Campaign map screenshots postponed. Reasons: 1. Looks like there are more people interested in joining the mod team. This requires some time for planning and coordinating at this stage which takes time from the modding, but in the long term this will be returned by higher quality and faster progress once the planning and coordinating has been done. 2. Doing more detailed planning of provinces before starting will probably save time later, which means the mod as a whole will be complete faster. However this won't prevent me from working on the campaign map terrain, climates etc. so I'll spend some time fixing that while the planning and coordination goes on.

The danish cities you listed weren't were important in the 9th century.

On Zealland, Copenhagen was a very small town. The city Roskilde (situated were you placed Copenhagen) was very important as it was the capital of Zealland before Denmark were united.

In North Jutland, Viborg was the most important town, it was another danish capital before Denmark was united. I think it actually was one of the danish fortifications.

Odense (my home town) was very small at this time and should not be a province capital, instead it should be Jelling (english) or Jellinge (danish) as it was the capital of the united Denmark. It was positioned were you placed Odense on your map (Odense really lies on the island in the middel of Denmark).

I don't think you should include an East Jutland as there was no really important town there.

@Lasias Wenson: Thanks for your help! I've now corrected the list according to the info in your post.

Will look at provinces and cities in detail over the weekend.

In the interim some more general comments about the starting date and factions.

Agree if the focus is to be the Vikings and it is not going to be just another medieval mod then 1000 is too late.

However for various reasons 843 is still too early and IMO 911 would be better:

1-3 Norway, Denmark and Sweden

Historically these were not unified kingdoms in 843 but collections of kingdoms and jarldoms.

The armies that ravaged NW Europe in the 860's and 870's were actually collections of raiding kings and jarls.

So obscure is this period that we're not even sure where in Scandinavia the most famous raiders came from and there are major questions about the identity of figures like Ivar the Boneless and Olaf the White (AP Smyth's Scandinavian Kings in the British Isles is the best book on this period but almost unobtainable).

Places like Dublin have yet to be founded or are just raiding camps.

By 911 the 3 Scandinavian kingdoms are a lot closer to unification and we have a lot more detail on rulers, towns etc as we are entering the main saga age.

While 843 has the attraction of being before the great Viking raids and invasions of the mid and late 9th century, in practice the AI will never send armies and fleets out of Scandinavia anyway (they will also have this problem with the Barbarian Invasions XP and it will be interesting to see if they can fix it and make the barbarians attack Rome instead of attacking the barbarian faction nearest to them).

In fact I hardly ever played the MTW VI campaign precisely because the AI vikings never attacked, while if you played as vikings even with the plunder rule you never had the money to establish survivable bridgeheads.

In 911 there are well established Viking colonies in Dublin, Iceland, Orkney, Man, York and the Danelaw (Normandy and Russia are separate issues) - of course it will be fudging it to give these to the Danes and Norwegians as they were mostly independent states but doing so will make the Viking factions much more aggressive and likely to attack the Scots, Irish and Saxons rather than each other.

4-7 Welsh, Scots, Irish and Saxons

Similarly while in 843 all of these peoples are divided into multiple kingdoms (Kenneth MacAlpin only attacked the Picts in 843 and never subdued Strathclyde) with a bit of fudging they are all much more united by 911.

Wessex in particular is just one of three Anglo-Saxon kingdoms in 843 but rules all of England that is not Danish in 911.

8 Normandy

There is no Normandy in 843 as the Normans are still all in Scandinavia.

If you want the Normans as a distinctive culture with christianity, knights, motte and bailey castles etc the earliest you can do that is 911 when Hrolf the Ganger is granted Normandy

9 Rus

The early history of the Rus is still a mystery but it is fairly clear that while there were individual bands of Varangians carving out principalities for themselves in 843, to have a unified Rus faction that is distinguished from the Vikings and otehr Slavs you again need to start in 911 - at which point we have Grand Princes based at Kiev who actually sign a treaty with the Byzantines that very year.

10-12 Magyars, Khazars, Bulgars

In 843 the Magyars, Khazars and Bulgars are all pagans but by 911 the Bulgars are Christian and the Khazars (or at least their rulers who are what matters at our level) are Jews.

In addition in 843 the Magyars are still subject to the Khazars and living on the steppes, whereas in 911 they have moved to Hungary and became a major military power.

13 Poles

in 843 we do not even knew if there was a Polish tribe and the dominant Slav power (and the only one significant enough to be a faction) is Moravia.

Although in 911 the Poles were still insignificant they were a lot closer to their actual emergence into history in the mid-tenth century.

14-16 Muslim States

If you want a mod that reflects the whole 843-1099 era then you really need three Muslim factions: Umayyads in Spain, Fatimids in North Africa and Abassids in Iraq.

Problem is in 843 there were no Fatimids - the family only established themeselves by seizing Tunis in 909.

Instead you have a vast Abassid Caliphate stretching from the Atlantic to the borders of China which the AI being what it is will raodily conquer the rest of the world and represent little challenge for a player.

However by 911 the Abassids have broken down into a number of more manageable states (most of which other than the Umayyads and Fatimids still paid lip service to the caliph in Baghdad).

If you choose 911 Spain to goes to the Umayyads, Tunisia and Algeria to the Fatimids and if you give the Abassid provinces in Egypt and Persia high unrest and small garrisons so they quickly revolt you should have playable Muslim factions.

17 Italians

843 presents the problem of Lotharingia.

As the map in Meneldil's post shows very clearly there was a big Frankish kingdom stretching from the North Sea to Rome under the Emperor Lothar I.

However this broke up in 855 on Lothars death into the kingdoms of Italy, Lorraine and Burgundy and within a generation Lorraine and Burgundy had further subdivided into Upper and Lower states.

Italy however was still a unified kingdom in 911 and remained so until Otto II crossed the Alps in 962 and refounded the Holy Roman Empire.

Thus while a separate Italian faction is wrong for 843 it is valid for 911.

There is some question about how far south they will go - in 843 and 911 the Byzantines held the southern coasts (and until 878 part of Sicily) and there were several independent Lombard principalities SE of Rome - these could either be rebels or part of Italy.

18 Byzantines

Byantium in 843 was a relatively weak state under an infant emperor (Michael III) who was the last of his dynasty.

It is also beset with rebellions by Iconcolast and aulician heretics who at several points control much of the empire.

By 911 we have a well-established and long-lasting dynasty (the Macedonians who lasted from 867 to 1056) in control and the empire is beginning its reconquests (but is not the superpower it was in say 1025 by which point it had abdsorbed Bulgaria, Syria, Armenia, the eastern Mediterranean Islands and South Italy).

Asturias

Dubious about including Asturias as a faction as they pretty much did nothing except cower in their little corner until the Umayyads disintegrated in the mid-eleventh century and even then split up into Castile, Leon, Aragon etc as they began the reconquista.

Consequently I would just make them powerful and aggressive rebels


19-20 France and Germany

in 843 these are both ruled by Carolingians but by 911 the German Carolingians have gone and were being replaced by the Saxon kings, while in France the last Carolingians are being displaced by the Capetians.

21 Rome

The papacy will always be a problem.

In the ninth and tenth centuries Rome was effectively a city state ruled by rapacious local nobles who put corrupt and frequently degenerate puppets on the Papal throne while real power was held by a figure known as the Consul or Senator (there was no longer a senate in Rome).

Even after Otto II took the city in 962 it still took several generations before the Cluniac reforms made the Papacy the authoritative institution we love or loathe today.

If you're stuck woth the Senate-Family relationship I suppose you can make the Julii France, Brutii Germany and Scipii Italy in which case they won't attack each other (which is not historically accurate) and the conquest of Rome is equivalent to the same event in RTW.


This adds up to 22 factions with the rebels so you'd still have to drop someone - my candidate would be the Welsh who were by far the weakest and most disunited of the peoples of the British isles and better left as rebels.

Of course one can hope that the new XP will remove the faction cap but nothing I've seen so far suggests that it will.

Several typos in last post - the aulicians mentioned under Byzantines should be Paulicians, others are fairly obvious.

Some thoughts on conversion:

What we need for the Norwegians, Danes, Swedes, Rus and Magyars are tech tree that are pagan at the lower levels and christian at the higher.

So is it possible to have say temples to Odin at levels 1-3 but a Christian Mission at level 4?

Higher level military and economic would also be made dependant on the Christian Mission being built.

i.e. without conversion the pagans stay at the same restricted levels as barbarians in RTW and with it they can get access to the same stuff as Christian feudal states.

While on the subject some more variety to Christian buildings would be nice - Churches dedicated to Saints and Monastic orders would give different types of bonuses (yeah I know these are all fantasy elements but are still worth considering).

For instance the famous shrine to St Michael the Archangel at Monte Gargano in Southern Italy attracted Norman pilgrims who ultimately set up a state there.

You could either have this as a wonder (The Holy Sepulchre at Jerusalem, Grand Mosques of Damascus and Cordoba, Hagia Sophia at Constantinople, St James at Compostoella and St Peters at Rome could be the other wonders) or as a church that can only be built in a province with a hidden resource of St Michael - so you can't have cathedrals of St Michael turning out +3 exp troops all over Europe.

Sts George and Demetrius fulfilled a similar role as warrior saints in the orthodox world (in fact most of our depictions of Byzantine soldiers are actually depictions of the these saints and of old testament kings)

Benedictine monasteries would also give agricultural bonuses, Marian churches fertility bonuses etc.

I'm still a little dubious about the starting date. Going as far as 911 is a little too much in my opinion. The fact that Normandy didn't exist until 911 is a minor inaccuracy if the mod starts in say ~880 AD or after - at least compared to the inaccuracies caused by AI and game mechanics. However, Normandy is probably too far out of the time frame in the 843 AD, so therefore I agree the starting date should be slighly later, but not be moved as far as to 911 AD. If you can find an interesting date around 850-900 that would make sense to have as a starting date, I'd like that.

Some replies to your list of reasons:
1-3. The lack of unity for the Scandinavian factions is imo a bonus, as it gives them a challenging start. Regarding not yet founded settlements, I see that as a minor problem if they were historically founded shortly after the starting date. Some approximations have to be done with the starting situation, or it'll pay back as a more inaccurate situation later in the game. I'm of the opinion that things that happened shorter than 50 years after the starting date aren't necessarily bad to have included from start.

Re AI not being able to send fleets, I've actually seen use of fleets from several AI factions in vanilla R:TW. One of the tricks is to have some rebel territories up for grabs in the British isles area, another trick, that could be relevant for the Danes, would be to have them own one province in the British isles from start - that'll make them want to reinforce their hold there.

4-7 The reason why I wanted scots, irish, welsh and saxons despite their inferior military strength compared to for example Byzantines and French in this period, was because a. gameplay-wise it's fun to have some really weak factions mixed with the stronger in order to grant a challenge to better players, b. the focus was on British isles. Even though Welsh were weak and mostly not united, I like the idea of having the ability to play them.

8 Normandy - I agree 843 was a bit too early. A compromise between 843 and 911 would be the best imo.

9 Rus - A strong Rus gives a strange balance imo. AI will expand far too quickly and perhaps also try to attack Scandinavia, which will then probably lose. Having a small Novgorod culture centered mostly around Novgorod will probably work better with AI, and make them more challenging to play. Still, they'll be relatively strong compared to the Swedish who are by then not united, and the Danes and Norwegians will prefer moving west so the Rus will be weak but still not likely to be conquered but instead grow steadily through the game. I think that's a better reflection of them - a growing empire in the 9th century than an overpowered dynasty (that will tend to conquer too much land) in the 10th century.

10-12 Magyars, Khazars, Bulgars religions. I explained this above, the magyar conversion however being too late to have from start if we start in 843 AD. Adding a conversion event, if that's at all possible, would solve all this. If we move the starting date to my newly suggested ~880 AD we'd still obtain the best results game mechanics-wise by letting Bulgars be orthodox, Magyars be pagan and Khazars be jewish. Around 880 AD I also believe Hungary have moved further into the northern Balkans area than in 843 AD. Having them as a too strong power from start would probalby upset balance.

13 Poles, the faciton limit can't allow including the Poles. Also, the first Polish kingdom fell pretty quickly, so Polish can't be in the mod, no matter what time we choose. Even though they were more important than the Welsh, I'm afraid I can't accept removing the Welsh, due to the Viking focus. I've already removed Mercians and Northumbrians among others up there.

14-16 Muslim States - I believe there are two choices for around 843 and 880: Al Andalus + Abbassids, or Fatimids + Abbassids. If we move far forward Abbassids would be Mamluks. I think I prefer Al Andalus + Abbassids, but it's just a matter of taste. I actually like having a "Spanish" Asturia too, just because they started in a hard position and they'd be fun to play. Besides, most muslim factions would have a similar fighting styles in many ways, so including some Iberian peninsula catholic faction would add variety.

17 Italians - After looking at those maps I've decided to replace Lombards with Lotharingia. Lotharingia will have little control and high unrest etc. in their northern provinces but good strength in modern northern Italy. That will be an accurate depiction of the decline and fall of the middle part of the Frankish empire.

18 Byzantines - I actually prefer having the Byzantines as a weak but rising power, for balance reasons. After all they already have the impregnable Constantinople from start. I know about the Iconoclasm and heretics etc., but 843 AD was the end of some of these problems and my sources claim it's approximately after 843 AD that the Byzantines enter their "golden age".

21 Rome - I'll make the pope pretty weak in the mod. "If you're stuck woth the Senate-Family relationship I suppose you can make the Julii France, Brutii Germany and Scipii Italy in which case they won't attack each other (which is not historically accurate) and the conquest of Rome is equivalent to the same event in RTW" - Yes, that's probably what I'd do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Apostate

Some thoughts on conversion

---

As I said I'm still not sure conversion is possible to implement. I'll do some research on the subject first, so perhaps we shouldn't yet waste time on planning for a system WITH conversion. Just using a tech tree will still keep the culture penalty when conquering settlements from Christians, and also probably make all new buildings still show up as for example "church (pagan)" just like in vanilla R:TW: "muster field (barbarian)" etc. unless we can find some script or something that can change culture for a faction.

While discussing religion and buildings I might as well post most of my tech tree plans so far. I haven't planned anything for Khazars or Magyars yet, these are still half-generic building trees mostly centered around the catholic factions.

NOTE! MOST UNITS MENTIONED BELOW (FOR MILITARY BUILDINGS) ARE GENERIC PLACEHOLDERS! FOR MOST FACTIONS THEY'LL NEED TO BE REPLACED BY UNIQUE UNITS. PLEASE DON'T MISUNDERSTAND ME AND THINK I MEAN THESE UNITS WILL BE EXACTLY THE FINAL UNITS WHICH WILL BE TRAINED IN THESE BUILDINGS!

RELIGION RELATED BUILDINGS
======================
- Main ideas: All faction have temples or similar which grant a happiness bonus. The pagan factions also have different temple types which will grant different boni. Choosing to honor a certain God in a certain province means locking the ability of honoring another God in that very province. Most factions will have one or more "fanatic" units, which will be trained in one of their holy buildings.

- Vikings: three Gods to choose between (and what boni they grant apart from the happiness): Odin (+morale, +xp, enable training of berserkers), Thor (+armor +weapons), Freya (+population growth). Vikings can also keep public order up by the happiness created by a "tavern", which can then be upgraded to a "mead hall".

- Catholics: chapel (no boni except happiness), church (+1 xp, +5% law), cathedral (+much happiness, +1 morale, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?). Church will also unlock "monastery", which grants some extra happiness and is cheaper than cathedral. Perhaps monastery could be replaced by monasteries of diffent types, in case the game mechanics allow for it. There's a maximum of 60 different building series, so if there's room after we've planned the rest, I like the idea of replacing "monastery" here by monasteries belonging to different religious orders. The Holy Sepulchre at Jerusalem should be a wonder which grants happiness in all provinces just like the Zeus statue in R:TW. The Holy Sepulchre will really be "The Holy Sepulchre, the Mosque of the rock and the Jewish temple", which means it's logical that all factions can get a happiness bonus from conquering it (except the pagans, but they'll eventually have converted to Christianity so it makes sense there too). The reason for this is because I doubt you can make wonders that only give boni to certain factions. Perhaps wonders could be replaced by "important cities", where those could be Jerusalem, Constantinople, Rome and perhaps some more - granting specific boni. I believe we'll have to discuss that further...

- Orthodox: chapel, church (+1 xp, +5% law), cathedral (+much happiness, +1 morale, can't think of any specific fanatics here...). Church would unlock
Sts George and Demetrius monasteries just like church for catholics unlock catholic monasteries.

- Muslims: minarete, mosque (+1 xp +5% law), grand mosque (+much happiness, +1 morale, enables training of al-murabitin fanatics for western muslims, some other unit for eastern muslims - if at all they'll have one unlocked by this one).

Grand Mosque of Damascus and Cordoba should be buildings that can't be constructed by any factions but exist in these provinces from start, with culture set to "muslim". Same thing with shrine to St Michael the Archangel at Monte Gargano in Southern Italy - with culture set to "catholic". With this system, Hagia Sophia at Constantinople, St James at Compostoella and St Peters at Rome could also be buildings of this type. I'm against making buildings that have a meaning only to one of the cultures a wonder as I believe the wonder gives boni to conquerors no matter of which culture he is. In some cases, these special buildings could be constructable in only one province and not be there from start - a solution perfect for the cases when the building wasn't historically created at the starting date of the mod.

I haven't planned for the Magyars and Khazars yet.

AGRICULTURE AND HEALTH
====================
I suggest farming income is given a greater importance than in R:TW compared to trade. The base farming level and the farm upgrades will be modelled realistically by letting base farming represent fertility in the province, and in the cases where crop yield was relatively good at this time despite perhaps a low fertility, this should be represented by already having one or more farming upgrades in the province from start. Here are the farming levels:
- Forest clearings (already available from start in a lot of provinces)
- Farms (farms now more organized and effective)
- Crop rotation
- Farming technology (by letting some fields lie fallow effectiveness is increased further even though all land isn't used at the time, and better ploughs allows every peasant to take care of a larger area without more effort which can increase crop yields per year)
- Irrigation (expensive and time consuming to construct, irrigation can in proper climate result in 2 or even 3 harvests per year - something that increases yields a lot)

And the health buildings:
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus, separating the sewage water from drinking water is a simple step that improves health a lot - however this technique isn't commonly known and it's cheaper and faster for lazy people to use same flow for both because they have to dig less...)
- Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus, much herbal medicine is unscientific and can even cause disease when there isn't any, but there are some medicines which are actually very effective at driving out evil)
- Water pipes (+20% health bonus, soap made from animal fat, and water pipes leading water into a house is advanced technology for many, but a few of the richest as well as church representatives who are spreading their faith are also bringing technologies like these with them).

PORTS, TRADERS, ROADS
===================
Roads:
- Paths
- Mud roads
- Paved roads (only available for catholics, orthodox and muslims)

Trading (all of these improve trade - and perhaps also population growth):
- Trader
- Market
- Merchant
- Master merchant (+10 happiness)

Docks/harbors:
- Port
- Shipyard
- Dockyard

Good seafaring nations such as vikings can perhaps not create master merchant, but will in return get trade boni from their ports, shipyards and dockyards.

BLACKSMITH AND ARMOR
===================
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons)
- Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons)
- Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed)
- Master armorer (+2 to all armor)

I suggest these upgrades buildings should ONLY be possible to build in provinces with the "iron" resource, at least the blacksmith buildings should IMO.

MINING
=====
I'd like several different mine types. I've checked and it's possible to implement this. All mines should exist as "x mine" and "large x mine" where x is the name of the metal recieved from the mine.
- Salt
- Copper
- Silver
- Gold

MILITARY RELATED BUILDINGS
======================
I had in mind a system where you have to construct one building for making of weapons, enabling recruitment of a militia force using these weapons, and an extra building for training of soldiers (unlocked after creating the weapons construction building), enabling training of professional soldiers using these weapons. There are also specific town guard/police force buildings which can only train milita. I've used generic unit names below - the respective factions will of course have to use more specific names (and have more specific looks) for the units. In cases where no specific units are known we might have to use a generic unit in each field. Militia units can also be generic in most cases.

MILITIA:
- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia), Police force (urban guard, +5 law bonus).

BOWS:
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (bowmen, requires bowmaker), Archery range (archers, requires bowmaker's workshop, +1 to missile weapons).
- Some factions will have exceptions, for example Welsh will be able to train longbowmen and bulgarians perhaps bulgarian brigands, and Lotharingia get crossbowmen for lower cost perhaps and be the only who can recruit the Genoese crossbowmen as standard units rather than mercenaries.

SPEARMEN:
Spearmen don't require advanced buildings for training, and spearmen are seldom professionals so no special training buildings are available to improve the spear units.
- Spearmaker (wooden-spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spear militia, spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (heavy spear militia, heavy spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants, halberdiers).
- Saxons will have fyrdmen to replace appropriate units above (perhaps the generic heavy spearmen and spearmen with fyrdmen +1xp and fyrdmen, respectively).

CAVALRY:
Cavalry is a professional force that takes much training so here there'll be very important to build the training buildings to improve cavalry quality. "Nobles" are the soft version of "knights" below.
- Horse farmer (militia cavalry), Stables (militia swordscavalry, militia spear cavalry), Cavalry stables (mounted sergeants, dark-age nobles, dismounted dark-age nobles), Elite cavalry stables (feudal cavalry sergeants, feudal nobles, dismounted feudal nobles).
- Cavalry training field (swordscavalry, spear cavalry, requires Stables),
Cavalry training grounds (dark-age knights, dismounted dark-age knights, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (feudal knights, dismounted feudal knights, royal knights, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- The cavalry tech tree above is adapted for catholic factions. Pagans will have more primitive cavalry, Rus will have druzhinas instead of royal knights and boyars instead of nobles, and perhaps more focus on light and missile cavs than on heavy knights. Muslims will use much lighter cavs and also unlike the others have camels, and little or no super heavy cavalry. Byzantines will of course have their cataphracts - but they'll be available earlier in the tech tree than catholic cavalry of the same class.

SWORDSMEN:
- Swordsmaker (sword militia, axe militia), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia swordsmen, militia axemen), Swordsmaker's guild (dark age men-at-arms militia), Master swordsmaker (feudal men-at-arms militia).
- Barracks (swordsmen, axemen, requires Swordmaker's workshop), Army barracks (dark age men-at-arms, requires Swordmaker's guild), Military academy (feudal men-at-arms, requires Master swordsmaker).
- Perhaps feudal men-at-arms should be available more easily than above on second thoughts but I'll edit it later. Saxons will have huscarles swordsmen and huscarles axemen rather than the generic units here as their best swordsmen. Welsh and Irish should perhaps use some kind of generic "celtic swordsmen" and "chosen celtic swordsmen" instead of the standard swordsmen. Irish should perhaps have the bonnachts and gallowglasses of M:TW (haven't checked about them yet). For scots there'll be highland clansmen, perhaps one unit of highland clansmen and a unit "elite clansmen" too.

SIEGE WEAPONS:
I suggest there'll be a lot of siege weapon crew mercenaries around, especially far south. However there should be some training facilities for siege weapons too, I think. I haven't planned those yet, though.

ACADEMIES
=========
Available to muslims, catholics and orthodox. Perhaps muslims should have more academy levels as they were better than the Christians at most sciences at this time.

WALLS
=====
I mentioned this in an earlier post, but:
- Wooden pallisade
- Wooden wall
- Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it)
- Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)
- Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

I think it'd be fun to edit so that there can be a wooden type of wall that troops can move on top of. I don't yet know if it's possible to implement but I hope it is - otherwise we can stick to standard walls (slightly edited in look, though).

Your mod seems like ours, Norse: Total War.

Here is the forums: http://12.freebb.com/index.php?freebb=norsetotalwar

Maybe we could work together?

Get around to pming me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain-Tiguris

Your mod seems like ours, Norse: Total War.

Here is the forums: http://12.freebb.com/index.php?freebb=norsetotalwar

Maybe we could work together?

Get around to pming me.

---

lol, skeletor from your team PMed me yesterday about cooperation, to which I responded that I was interested in a cooperation. He has apparently not informed you about our correspondence yet, but this is good news because it means at least 2 of your 3 team members like the idea of cooperating with me. So I repeat to you what I said yesterday to skeletor: I'd be very glad if you would merge with my mod team, that way we'll be able to make a better mod, and also be able to complete it faster.

btw I love this part in your forums ~;) :
"There is a modder (LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix) (yes that is hes name) over at the .org forum" ~D

Well I wouldn't of believed it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain-Tiguris

Well I wouldn't of believed it!

---

Ok, lol

Anyway, I need to know what your mod team decided regarding the cooperation so I can plan what to do in terms of modding during the coming weeks.

Oh yes that.... lol, I tried to spell it without ctlr+v/c, didn't work :dizzy2:

But does this mean that we'r joining? Could you please stop by our forum for some discussion?

Cheers :medievalcheers:

-Skel-

I've posted in your forum now :medievalcheers: You are welcome to join Age of Vikings and Fanatics. Please tell me what your skills are so we can plan who should carry out which work.

I have no real modding skills (though I am learning to skin). I do do research and generally keep everything accounted for an in tact/up to date.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Captain-Tiguris

am learning to skin [...] I do do research

---

If you know some skinning you'll be able to contribute well to the mod effort. If you aren't a historian, The Apostate will be lead researcher and it's then up to him to decide whether or not there is anything regarding research that he can hand over to you. If you are a historian, you could discuss with The Apostate how to split up research work - for example you take a few factions each etc. In any case, if you have any skinning skills at all there'll certainly be work for you to do in that field.

@ALL: It would perhaps be good if all who have joined the mod team would add a link to this thread in their signature. Perhaps I'll design a logo that we can include in the signature as well.

@The Apostate: Maximus Aurelius want to perhaps enlist as a researcher. Do we need more researchers or can you handle all the research by yourself? Because you joined first, you are the head of research and as such I believe you should decide whether or not any more researchers should join.

So are we together?

And we need a name that we can agree on. If we are together.....

yo!
great idea for a mod, i saw that you were going to include the welsh. to help them, as they may be outclassed as the game progresses, make cornwall(cornwalum) and devon(defnasscir) seperat prvinces, cornwalll was under welsh control at this time anyway, and devon was the heartland of Dumnonia which was arthur kingdom, if the welsh capture this they will be able to create Dumnonian heavy cavalry, arthurs cavary. This would help the welsh later in game by giving them a heavy cavalry arm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain-Tiguris

So are we together?

---

@Captain-Tiguris: Yes. I'll add you in the team list in the first post. I'm awaiting a response from skeletor too. Finally, I wonder what happened to The Apostate, as he haven't posted here in a while.

@The Apostate: Are you still there, The Apostate? I'm looking forward to your correction of my province list. Any idea of how long it'll take before I can expect it? I've found out that it's hard to do much of the campaign map work before having the province and cities list, as the positioning of cities will affect how terrain like mountains etc. can be modelled, and that pretty much stops work on all parts of the campaign map except choice of climates and some other smaller things. Don't feel stressed, but I'd like to know how far you've gotten and when I can expect the revised province list.

@ALL mod team members:
1. Yes, the mod name needs to be agreed upon. I personally don't mind what name we choose but I prefer mine ~D Also, I believe the name Norse total war would hide the fact that other parts of the world are included as well.
2. I can make a logo after we've agreed completely about the name of the mod.

@ian_of_smeg16: Hi, the Welsh will have their powerful longbowmen, but otherwise be a hard faction to play, as their starting provinces give little income. However, if they capture lands that give them more income, they'll be able to train and support more powerful cavalry. Exactly what cavalry that will be has not yet been decided. They'll also own more than one province from start - probably around 4 provinces. The names and drawing of borders between the provinces is still under consideration.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

@ian_of_smeg16: Hi, the Welsh will have their powerful longbowmen, but otherwise be a hard faction to play, as their starting provinces give little income. However, if they capture lands that give them more income, they'll be able to train and support more powerful cavalry. Exactly what cavalry that will be has not yet been decided. They'll also own more than one province from start - probably around 4 provinces. The names and drawing of borders between the provinces is still under consideration.

---

ok, so maybe consider cornwall as a province
cool
:charge: :duel: :duel: :charge:

Here's an improved version of the province list, however still not complete:
City levels will be: village, town, large town, city, large city.

NORWAY AREA
* Hordaland - Bergen (town)
* Hafrsfjord (rebels) - Nord-Jaeren / Stafangr (town)
* Vaestfold - Kaupang (position close to Oslo but further down the fiord) (large town)
* Trondelag - Trondheim (town)
* Hologaland (modern Lofoten area and mainland next to it) - Narvik (better city needed) (village)
* Northern Norway - Tromso (village)
* Finnmark (rebels) - Kirkenes (situated next to Barents Sea and modern Russian border) (village)

DENMARK AREA
* Sjaelland (Zealland) - Roskilde
* Holseta land (modern Nordfriesland, in modern Schleswig-Holstein area) - Haithabu / Hedeby (was the largest nordic city of the viking age, will have much importance and fairly large population)
* North Jutland (better province name needed) - Aalborg or Viborg (settlement will have good fortifications, was historically part of Danish fortification systems in the area)
* Middle Jutland - Jelling

ICELAND AREA
* Iceland - Reyjkjavik (village/town)

IRELAND AREA
* Connacht (western Ireland) - Limerick
* Muma (today Munster, southwest Ireland) - Cork
* Ulaid (Ulster) - Armagh
* Laigin (Leinster, southeast Ireland) - Clontarf

SPAIN AREA
* Navarre - Pamplona
* Leon - Santiago de Compostela (Leon also possible settlement for this province, but I chose Santiago de Compostela)
* Portugal - Lissabon
* Andalusia - Sevilla
* Cordoba - Cordoba
* Granada - Granada
* Valencia - Valencia
* Castile - Toledo
* Catalonia - Barcelona
* Aragon - Zaragosa

ITALY AREA
* Liguria - Genoa
* Austria - Venetia (Venice)
* Langobardia - Mediolanum (Milan)
* Tuscia - Pisa
* Papal states (owned by Pope) - Rome
* Beneventum - (byzantine-controlled) Naples
* Sicily (rebels) - Palermo

RUSSIA AND STEPPES AREA
* Pripet - Chernigov
* Novgorod - Novgorod
* Smolensk - Smolensk
* Kiev - Kiev
* The Crimea - Cherson
* Taiga (the northeasternmost province) - Rostov
* Volga-Bulgaria (very far to the east) - Bolgar (at volga-kama bifurcation)
* Ryazan - Ryazan (south of Rostov, south of part of Volga, close to tip of Don)
* Khazar - Sarkel (just southeast of Donets/Don bifurcation)
* Azov sea - Timutarkan (north of the little river)
* Volga - Atil (at Volga delta)

NORTH AFRICA AREA
* Morocco - Tanger
* Tunisia - Tunis
* Fezzan (Sahara) - Ghadamis or Djavan
* Tripolitania - Tripoli
* Cyrenaica - Barka
* Libya - Alexandria (large city)
* Egypt (also covering the Sinai) - Cairo / Fostat or Mephis? (city)
* Nubia - Assuan (town) - although the map won't reach down to Nubia it'd probably be best to have a nubia province. This is the only recruitment zone for abyssinian guard and other nubian troops.

GERMANY AND EASTERN EUROPE AREA
* Alamannia (Swabia, just north/northeast of Upper Burgundy or Switzerland) - Strassburg
* Francia Orientalis/Francia (Franconia, north of Swabia) - Magontia?/Mains
* Thuringia (north of Franconia) - Erfurt
* Vendland (north of Thuringia) - Brema (Bremen) or Hammaburg (Hamburg)
* Saxonia - Jumme / Jomsborg
* Bavaria (just east of Swabia, stretching much further south than modern Bavaria - covering modern Austria etc.) - Regensburg or Salzburg
* Cartinthia (maybe not to be included in the final province list) - Salzburg
* Bohemia - Praga
* Moravia (southern border is Danube, Bohemia lies to the southwest of Moravia) - Olmütz
* Pannonia (south of Moravia, bordering Croatia to the south) (perhaps owned by avars rebels if any were still left there around 843 AD? Pannonia is almost same as modern Hungary) - Buda
* Carpathia - Pest
* Wallachia - Tergovist
* Bulgaria - Plovdiv (just north of the little river)
* Poland - Krakow
* Moldavia - Pereyaslavets
* Croatia - Zara or Spalato
* Sorabia (Serbia) - Prishtina?
* Albania (maybe) - Dyrrhachium
* Macedonia - Thessalonika
* Athens - Athens
* Pelopponesse (Byzantine-held) - Mistra



SWEDEN AREA (almost complete)
* Svealand - Birka (this city will be really cool - on a small island in the middle of the lake Mealaren) (town)
* Upland - Upsala (town)
* Ostgothia - ? (town name needed)
* Waestrogothia - Skara (large town)
* Gotland - Visby (village or town)
* Smaland (rebels) - ? (village name needed)
* Samland - ? (village name needed)
* Halland - Loedoese (town)
* Skani (will be owned by Danes from start) - ? (city needed)

FINLAND AND BALTIC AREA (almost complete)
THANKS TO wilpuri and others from the FURY OF THE NORSEMEN mod for providing me with most of the info for Finland and Baltic area provinces listed below:
Finland
* Häme (middle west coast of Finland) - Kokemäki (slightly south of modern Vaasa) (village or town)
* Vakka-Suomi (southwest coast of Finland) - Turku (same place as modern Turku) (town)
* Karjala (means Karelia I presume, north of Lake Ladoga, stretching far up north) - Käkisalmi (at northwestern tip of Lake Ladoga) (village or town)
* Kainuunmaa (north west coast) - Kainuu (perhaps not correct city?, far north) (village)
* Inkerinmaa/Ingria - Laatoknakaupunki (very close to Novgorod but situated at the southern shore of Lake Ladoga) (village or town)
Further south
* Lithuania - Daugava (further south than modern Lithuania)
* Prussia - Truso (just east of Gdansk)
* Livonia - ? (north of Lithuania)
* Saaremaa (the island at opening of Gulf of Riga) - Kuressaare (city lies on side of island facing Gulf of Riga)
* Revala & Sakala/Revala (northern Estonia if Revala, if both Revala & Sakala then covering all of Estonia) - Rafala (same place as Tallinn)
* Courland/Curland (southwest half of Lativa) - Seeburg (southeast modern Lativa area)

BRITAIN AREA (almost complete)
Welsh
* Gwyned (northern Wales) - Deganwy, or Din Conwy (was the fortress of Maelgun Gwynedd, but it was destructed in 850)
* Powys (middle Wales) - ?
* Gwent (southern Wales) - Caerleon-upon-Uisc
* Dyfed (western Wales) - Carmarthen (Caer-Myrddin) or Pembroke?
* West Wealas / Cerniu / Cornwall (welsh-held, southwest England) - Isca (modern Exeter) or Tintagel? (a real place but was it an important stronghold in the IXth century?)
Scottish
* Dal riada (western Scotland) - ?
* Orkney/Moray (northern Scotland and Orkney islands) (rebels) - ?
* Athfotla (middle Scotland) - Inverness (at the delta of river)
* Cyil (soutwest Scotland) - Dunbarton?
* Fib (southern Scotland) - Aberdeen?
Rebels and saxons
* Strathclyde (northwest England) - Whithorn
* Northumbria (north middle England) - York
* Lindsey - Stamford (danish-owned)
* Mierce/Mercia (middle England) - Chester (at west coast) or Stattford (middle) or Warwick (further south than Stattford)
* West seaxe - ? maybe Exeter
* Suth seaxe (southeast of West seaxe) - Chichester (at south coast)
* East seaxe / Essex / Kent - London
* East engle (east England south of Beornice) - Norwich

FRANCE AREA (almost complete)
* Aquitania - Mediolanum
* Vasconia (Gascogne, south of Aquitaine) - Burdigula (Bordeaux)
* Britannia (Britanny) - Nantes or Rennes
* Provincia / Lower Burgundy (Provence - beginning just east of Rhodanus/Rhône) - Massilia (same as Marseilles) (or perhaps Nicia)
* Septimania or Tolosa (Toulouse, also part of Aquitainia [as rebels] starting provinces) - Tolosa
* Normandy (norman) - Rouen (at Seine) or Bayeux (just east of Cotentin peninsula)
* Neustria - Paris
* Flandria - ?
* Burgundia - ?
* Upper Burgundy / Switzerland - Geneva
* Friesia (rebels) - ?
* Austrasia (Aachen, west of Rhine) - Aquisgranum
* Lorraine?/Francia Media/Champagne? - Verdunum (Verdun)

ASIA MINOR AREA (almost complete)
* Constantinople - Constantinople (large city)
* Paphlagonia - Sinope
* Trebizond - Trebizond
* Opsikion - Nikaia / Nicaea
* Thrakesion - Pergamum
* Anatolikon - Iconium
* Cappadocia - Ankara / Ancyra / Angora
* Lesser Armenia - Tarsus
* Edessa - Edessa
* Armenia - Tiflis?
* Georgia - ?

MIDDLE EAST AREA (almost complete)
* Antiokeia - Antiokeia
* Tripolis - Tripolis
* Palestine - Jerusalem
* Syria - Damascus
* Arabia - Medina
* Baghdad (better province name perhaps needed) - Baghdad
* Mosul (better province name needed) - Mosul
* Basra (better province name needed) - Basra

MEDITERRANEAN ISLANDS (almost complete)
(for Sicily, see the Italy paragraph above)
* Baliares - ?
* Corsica - ?
* Sardinia - ?
* Cyprus - Nicosia
* Crete - Candia / Kandia
* Rhodes - ?

Oh yes, if we are joining wouldnt me and you be head of it, since we both managing a mod anyway?

Oh yeh, I aint a skinner or a unit editor yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

FINLAND, BALTICUM AND RUSSIA AREA (very far from complete...)
* Karelia (west of Lake Ladoga but not blocking Baltic port for Novgorod province) - ?
* Finland (rest of Finland, pretty much) - ?, better name perhaps needed for province. Settlement needed.
* Livonia (Estonia and Latvia area) - ?, settlement name needed.
* Lithuania - ?, settlement name needed.
* Novgorod - Novgorod
* Kiev - Kiev
* Smolensk - ?
* Volga-Bulgaria - Bolgar

---

This might prove useful: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=642

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Captain-Tiguris

Oh yes, if we are joining wouldnt me and you be head of it, since we both managing a mod anyway?

Oh yeh, I aint a skinner or a unit editor yet.

---

We can both be head of the mod, yes. I'll edit that now.

Do you mind having the title "skinner/unit editor" next to your name even though you haven't fully learned unit editing and skinning yet? After all, isn't that what you're supposed to do later in the mod process anyway? I'm not a full-fledged campaign map creator either, but I learn as I go and have still put the title "campaign map editor" next to my name...

Anyway, here's the basic plan for a project like this:
- Planning
- Modding
- Testing/fixing
- Release

So I suggest we discuss the planning. I suggest the planning could follow this schedule: I post lists of 1. provinces + cities, 2. units, 3. buildings/tech trees. Then all team members can come with suggestions for improvements of those lists - and don't be afraid of giving me much criticism on those lists as the first versions will only be rough scetches. Then we keep sending comments/suggestions back and forth until we're all pleased with the lists. Then, when the planning phase is over, we can start the actual modding ~:) . So, in conclusion, I'll make lists 2 and 3 now and post them below. Province list has already been posted above this post (I'll edit it as updates are made).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilpuri

This might prove useful: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=642

---

Thanks a lot, I've updated the province list and added a note giving you credit for the help.

Tech trees:
(Boni for buildings of higher level are total boni, not added bonus for upgrading)
(When a building upgrade enables recruiting of certain units, I only mention the new units unlocked by the upgrade)
(Buildings in the same paragraph starting with "-" belong to the same series - buildings to the right are upgrades of buildings further to the left on that line)

ALL FACTIONS
===========
...can access these "zone of recruit"-based units (there are other ZOR units too but they're locked to specific factions, see their respective tech trees):
- Steppe cavalry (steppes, require stables)
- Heavy steppe cavalry (steppes, require cavalry stables)

MERCENARIES
===========
- Genoese crossbowmen mercenaries (Northern Italy and French riviera area)
- Varangian mercenaries (Kiev, Smolensk etc.)
- Abyssinian guard - unarmored, fierce axemen (Nubia, perhaps also the Egyptian provinces)
- Mercenary longbowmen - (in the Welsh provinces)
- Mercenary ballista crew - (in France, HRE, Lotharingia, rest of Italy and Greece)
- Mercenary catapult crew - (in France, HRE, Lotharingia, rest of Italy and Greece)
- Mercenary trebuchet crew - (in France, HRE, Lotharingia, rest of Italy and Greece)
- Turkish horse archers - (ZOR eastern Asia Minor area)

France, HRE and Lotharingia
=====================
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp, genoese crossbowmen [lotharinigia only]), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants, halberdiers).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (frankish sergeants, frankish knights), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, early foot knights), Swordsmaker's guild (men-at-arms, foot knights), Master swordsmaker (feudal men-at-arms, feudal foot knights)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Norway, Denmark, Sweden
====================
- Shrine to Odin/Thor/Freya (+10 happiness, requires town, odin:+1 xp, thor: +1 weapons, freya: +1 population growth), Sacred groove of Odin/Thor/Freya (+20 happiness, requires large town, odin:+2 xp, enable training of viking berserkers, thor: +1 weapons +1 armor, freya +2 population growth +5% law), Sanctuary of Odin/Thor/Freya (+30 happiness, requires city, odin +3 xp +5% law, thor: +2 weapons +1 armor, freya: +3 population growth, +10% law).
- Tavern (+5% happiness, allows thing to be held), Mead hall (+10% happiness).
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port (+20 trade), Shipyard (+40 trade), Dockyard (+60 trade), (all of these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, peasants), Town militia (hirdmenn, +5% law)
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, viking archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archers +1 xp, viking archers +1 xp, birkebeiner archers [zone of recruit Norway and western part of Sweden]), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (viking spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (geirrmen).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (raider cavalry), Cavalry stables (viking cavalry), Elite cavalry stables (danish knights [danes only])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (landsmenn, jarl's hirdmenn), Swordsmaker's workshop (karls [sword], viking huskarl swordsmen [sword]), Swordsmaker's guild (viking huskarl axemen, birkebeiners [bow and sword]), Master swordsmaker (joms vikings [zone of recruit Sweden, Norway, Denmark, northern Poland])
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Rus
===
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (slav javelinmen, urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (rus spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (rus foot sergeants [slightly weaker than feudal foot sergeants]).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (horse archers, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (druzhina cavalry), Elite cavalry stables (boyars)
(also note that Rus have easy access to steppe cavalry with zone of recruit in their area)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, rus swordsmen), Swordsmaker's guild (rus axemen), Master swordsmaker (rus heavy axemen)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Byzantines
==========
Their recruiting abilities are limited so they'll need to hunt for mercenaries, especially the varangian mercenaries around Kiev. Their cavalrymen are however of high quality but they're required to hold their lands if they are to be able to recruit them.
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (psiloi javelinmen, urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, trebizond archers [ZOR trebizond only], slingers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archers +1 xp, skutatoi archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (skutatoi spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (skutatoi heavy spearmen), Master spearmaker (-).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (kataphraktoi [expensive, lance and sword, shield, not super heavy - the klibanophoroi are much stronger, zone of recruit east Asia minor area], trapezitoi light cavalry [zone of recruit trebizond]), Cavalry stables (expensive, kavallarioi archers [heavy horse archers, sword and bow, no shield, zone of recruit east Asia minor area], klibanophoroi [expensive, small unit, lance and mace, maybe shield, extra heavy cataphracts, zone of recruit east Asia minor area]), Elite cavalry stables (immortals [expensive, small unit, heavy cavalry, zone of recruit Constantinople and Macedon area], Proniai cavalry [medium cavalry, cheap]])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (slavic warriors), Swordsmaker's guild (militia swordsmen +1 xp), Master swordsmaker (proniai swordsmen)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Bulgars
=======
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (slav javelinmen, urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, bulgarian brigands [bow and sword, ZOR bulgaria], archers), Bowmaker's guild (bulgarian brigands +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (-).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (horse archers, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (pecheneg horse archers [ZOR north of Bulgaria up to Kiev area], vlach cavalry [medium cavalry, ZOR wallachia]), Elite cavalry stables (boyars [sword and bow], cuman horse archers [sword and bow, weaker meleé but faster than boyars])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, slavic warriors), Swordsmaker's guild (elite slavic warriors), Master swordsmaker (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Scots
=====
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archers +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (scottish cavalry), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia clansmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (highland clansmen), Swordsmaker's guild (elite clansmen, foot knights), Master swordsmaker (feudal foot knights)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Welsh
=====
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers, militia longbowmen [long range, armor-piercing, fast]), Bowmaker's guild (longbowmen [very long range, armor-piercing, fast], archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (dumnonian cavalry), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (celtic militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (celtic swordsmen, celtic militia axemen), Swordsmaker's guild (celtic elite swordsmen, celtic axemen), Master swordsmaker (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Irish
=====
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (irish dartmen, urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (irish cavalry), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (celtic militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (celtic swordsmen, celtic militia axemen), Swordsmaker's guild (bonnachts), Master swordsmaker (gallowglasses [elite, expensive])
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Normandy
========
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, norman archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, norman archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants, halberdiers).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (norman sergeants, norman knights), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, early foot knights), Swordsmaker's guild (men-at-arms, foot knights), Master swordsmaker (feudal men-at-arms, feudal foot knights)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Saxons
======
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (fyrdmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored fyrdmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants, halberdiers).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (saxon sergeants, saxon knights), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (saxon huscarl swordsmen [sword]), Swordsmaker's guild (saxon huscarl axemen [axe]), Master swordsmaker (saxon huscarl swordsmen +1 xp, saxon huscarl axemen +1 xp, feudal foot knights)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Papal states
============
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants, halberdiers).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (papal sergeants, papal knights), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, early foot knights), Swordsmaker's guild (men-at-arms, foot knights), Master swordsmaker (feudal men-at-arms, feudal foot knights)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Khazar
======
The khazars will, like the Byzantines, hire the expensive but very professional varangian mercenaries near Kiev if they want any higher-quality swordsmen to support their formidable cavalry
- Small synagogue (+10 happiness, requires town), Synagogue (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Large synagogue (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED!
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (arsiyah spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (arsiyah armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (-)
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (horse archers, alan light auxilia cavalry [high-quality light cavalry, ZOR eastern steppes provinces]), Cavalry stables (pecheneg horse archers [ZOR north of Bulgaria up to Kiev area], khazar royal cavalry), Elite cavalry stables (khwarazmian cavalry)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables)
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, arsiyah swordsmen), Swordsmaker's guild (-), Master swordsmaker (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Abbassids
=========
- Minarete (+10 happiness, requires town), Mosque (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Large mosque (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED!
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade), Master merchant (+80 trade, +10% happiness)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University, Great university
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, desert bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, desert archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, desert archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen, napta throwers [maybe not included if it's impossible to fix napta, small unit, expensive]).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (desert spearmen, nubian spearmen [good morale, relatively cheap, ZOR nubia and egyptian provinces]), Spearmaker's guild (desert spearmen +1 xp), Master spearmaker (saracen infantry).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (saharan cavalry [militia light cavalry, ZOR north africa], mamluk light cavalry [professional light cavalry], beouin camel warriors [scare horses, poor morale, very much combat bonus in deserts, ZOR north africa, sinai, arabia and syria]), Cavalry stables (ghulam cavalry [medium cavalry - faster but weaker than most other heavy cavs, but desert combat bonus can nearly make up for that in deserts]), Elite cavalry stables (khwarazmian cavalry)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (arab militia swordsmen [sable]), Swordsmaker's workshop (arab militia axemen, arab swordsmen), Swordsmaker's guild (arab axemen), Master swordsmaker (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Al Andalus
==========
- Minarete (+10 happiness, requires town), Mosque (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Large mosque (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enables training of al-murabitin fanatics [small unit], requires city)
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED!
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming)
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, desert bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, desert archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, desert archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen, napta throwers [maybe not included if it's impossible to fix napta, small unit, expensive]).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (desert spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (desert spearmen +1 xp, al-murabitin spearmen), Master spearmaker (saracen infantry).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (saharan cavalry [militia light cavalry, ZOR north africa], mamluk light cavalry [professional light cavalry], beouin camel warriors [scare horses, poor morale, very much combat bonus in deserts, ZOR north africa, sinai, arabia and syria], berber camel archers [ZOR southern Spain and west Africa]), Cavalry stables (ghulam cavalry [medium cavalry - faster but weaker than most other heavy cavs, but desert combat bonus can nearly make up for that in deserts]), Elite cavalry stables (-)
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (arab militia swordsmen [sable]), Swordsmaker's workshop (arab militia axemen, arab swordsmen), Swordsmaker's guild (arab axemen), Master swordsmaker (al-murabitin swordsmen)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Kingdom of Asturia
==================
- Chapel (+10 happiness, requires town), Church (+20 happiness, +1 morale, +5% law, requires large town), Cathedral (+40 happiness, +2 morale, +10% law, enable training of catholic fanatics - clubmen?, requires city)
- Abbey/Monastery (requires Church, +10% happiness - perhaps replace this building with specific monastery types for different religious orders granting different boni and which can only be built in a certain province/in certain provinces)
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming), Feudal farming (+17 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus), Water pipes (+20% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads, Paved roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Academy, University
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it), Large stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (feudal foot sergeants).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (scout cavalry, spearcavalry), Cavalry stables (asturian sergeants, asturian knights), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, early foot knights), Swordsmaker's guild (men-at-arms, foot knights), Master swordsmaker (feudal men-at-arms, feudal foot knights)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp), Military academy (requires Master swordsmaker, +3 swordsmen xp).
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

Magyars
=======
I can't find any info on magyar gods, I need help with that.
- Shrine to X (+10 happiness, requires town, ?), Sacred groove of X (+20 happiness, requires large town, ?), Sanctuary of X (+30 happiness, requires city, ?).
- MORE HAPPINESS BUILDINGS NEEDED
- Forest clearings (+5 farming, available from start in most provinces - high bonus to indicate how an important improvement this step means compared to no farming buildings), Farms (+8 farming), Crop rotation (+11 farming), Farming technology (+14 farming).
- Proper sewage (+10% health bonus), Herbal medicine (+15% health bonus).
- Paths, Mud roads
- Trader (+20% trade), Market (+40% trade), Merchant (+60% trade)
- Port, Shipyard, Dockyard (all these enable training of better and better ships)
- Blacksmith (+1 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Master blacksmith (+2 to all weapons, requires Iron resource), Armorer (+1 to all armor, will NOT require blacksmith in order to be constructed), Master armorer (+2 to all armor)
- Salt mine (+1 mining), Large salt mine (+2 mining), Copper mine (+2 mining), Large copper mine (+4 mining), Silver mine (+3 mining), Large silver mine (+6 mining), Gold mine (+4 mining), Large gold mine (+8 mining). All mines require their respective resources in the province in order to be possible to build.
- Wooden pallisade, Wooden wall, Large wooden wall (possible to move on top of it), Stone wall (possible to move on top of it)

- Muster field (javelinmen, town watch, peasants), Town militia (slav javelinmen, urban militia, +5% law), Police force (urban guard, +10% law).
- Bowmaker (militia bowmen, bowmen), Bowmaker's workshop (militia archers, bulgarian brigands [bow and sword, ZOR bulgaria], archers), Bowmaker's guild (militia archer +1 xp, bulgarian brigands +1 xp, archers +1 xp), Master bowmaker (crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen).
- Practise target (requires bowmaker, +1 missile weapon xp), Archery range (+2 missile weapon xp).
- Spearmaker (spear militia), Spearmaker's workshop (spearmen), Spearmaker's guild (armored spearmen), Master spearmaker (-).
- Horse farmer (militia swordscavalry, militia spearcavalry), Stables (horse archers, szekely [medium cavalry, sword and bow]), Cavalry stables (pecheneg horse archers [ZOR north of Bulgaria up to Kiev area], szekely heavy cavalry [heavy cavalry, lance and sword]), Elite cavalry stables (feudal sergeants, feudal knights, royal knights [expensive, elite, small unit size])
- Cavalry training field (+1 to cavalry xp, requires Stables), Cavalry training grounds (+2 to cavalry xp, requires Cavalry stables), Cavalry academy (+3 to cavalry xp, requires Elite cavalry stables).
- Swordsmaker (militia swordsmen), Swordsmaker's workshop (militia axemen, maygar swordsmen [very light troops]), Swordsmaker's guild (-), Master swordsmaker (-)
- Barracks (requires Swordsmaker's workshop, +1 swordsmen xp), Army barracks (requires Swordmaker's guild, +2 swordsmen xp)
- Siege engineer (requires town, ballista), Siege engineer's workshop (requires large town, catapult), Siege engineer's guild (requires city, trebuchet)

ok i like this idea of the mod if it haven't died yet. so i think you should make biger Lithuania :) since i'm the first Lithuanian here . keep up the good work (bad english i know ...)

Wow LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix, thats amasing.... :book:

For the Norse factions, the unit "viking thrall swordsmen" is way off. Thrall means slave, and the thralls were never allowed to own/use any kind of weapon. (except maybe hunting-gear)

-skel-

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skeletor

Wow LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix, thats amasing.... :book:

For the Norse factions, the unit "viking thrall swordsmen" is way off. Thrall means slave, and the thralls were never allowed to own/use any kind of weapon. (except maybe hunting-gear)

-skel-

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Ok. Do you have any suggestions for a replacement to fill the slot as "cheap militia-type swordsman" for vikings? Or how do you suggest I change the tech tree?

Also, I'd like any comments about what you think of the system to have one extra series of buildings for "training quality" of units, for example the practise target and archery range to improve missile weapon xp and similar for the other weapon types. Do you like the idea or do you think I should remove it?

I wold probably call them something like sword hirdmen.

The norse army's were built up by the nobles hirds (bodyguards, or personal/local army). Poor and less important nobles had small, less trained, and bad equipped hirds. The Important nobles/jarls/kings on the other hand, had larger numbers of well trained, good armoured hirdmen. When a king or a jarl went to war, he had to relay on hes "ally nobles" to support hes army with men. The nobles gathered with their hird (10 - 100 men etch) along with the Jarls/kings hird. Together they formed the army.

So the regular sword/spear/archer/axe unit's could be called sword/spear/archer/axe hird. then you get Jarls hird, as better troops, and the finest units can be called kings hird.

This along with the other unique units like nobles, berserkers, jomsvikings, birkebeiners, aso.

-Skel-

Ok, I'll fix that when I get the time. I'll be a little short of time the coming week but I'll be able to devote more time to the mod from next weekend again.

I like your ideas for the viking tech tree but I hadn't heard of birkebeiners. What are they? How good should they be compared to the other viking units, and which building level should unlock them?

Also, I like the picture in your sig. Could we use that as the mod's logo? Only thing I'd like to change then is the text, IMO it would be cool with "A furore Normannorum, libera nos Domine" and a small text with the name of the mod in the lower right corner of the picture.

I've run some tests with existing vanilla R:TW units with modded stats to check what stats would be best to use for the units in order to create a good behavior and achieve slower battle speed. I tested with chosen swordsmen with modded stats. I'll soon post some suggestions for good stats for the different unit types I listed above. I'll not post specific suggestions for each unit, only what I think should be the approximate stats for different TYPES of units, such as what the better swordsmen should have and what stats the militia should have etc.

Quote:

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Also, I like the picture in your sig. Could we use that as the mod's logo? Only thing I'd like to change then is the text, IMO it would be cool with "A furore Normannorum, libera nos Domine" and a small text with the name of the mod in the lower right corner of the picture.

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Done, see here

Quote:

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I like your ideas for the viking tech tree but I hadn't heard of birkebeiners. What are they? How good should they be compared to the other viking units, and which building level should unlock them?

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They played a vital role in several Norwegian civil wars. birkebeiner means barklegs, from the bark they used to protect their legs. They were supreme skiers, and therefor supreme snow/winter warriors. They were also known for their archer skills.
http://www.ski-nordik.it/manifestazi...rkebeiners.jpg

-skel-

Nice. So should birkebeiners be a unit with bow and spear, or a unit with bow and sword, or two units: birkebeiner swordsmen (for Norway only or available to all viking factions but with zone of recruit in Norwegian provinces?) and birkebeiner archers?

I,m not really sure, we could have them only as a unique Norwegian (and maybe west swedish) archer unit.

BTW new avatar that doesn't get cut ~:cool:

I
I
I
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-Skel-

Ah, the new pic indeed looks sweet!

Anyway, regarding the birkebeiners I think it would be fun to have them with zone of recruit in Norwegian provinces. Then the swedish faction can also recruit them if they conquer Norwegian land which will help them later in the game. I've edited so they've been added to the tech tree now.

I'll try to fix complete tech tree suggestions for the remaining factions too by tomorrow or Tuesday.

LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix, i would like to help you in this mod as the one that me and ferret decided to do hasnt made progress in a while and ferret himself hasnt siad anything, i still want to make a viking mod though and i am offering my services if you would like them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Ragnar

LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix, i would like to help you in this mod as the one that me and ferret decided to do hasnt made progress in a while and ferret himself hasnt siad anything, i still want to make a viking mod though and i am offering my services if you would like them.

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Ok, what skills do you have? We'll probably have loads of units in the mod so more modellers/skinners are always welcome, I believe. I'm sure the others in the mod team don't mind if another modder joins the team.

Researching looks like you have done most of that, i can skin but i've just started and i am trying to learn to model units. But i have problems opening the file etc.

No problem, there'll probably be more research to do. There are some holes in the lists I've made - more research is needed before those holes can be filled. We also need to find good pictures for all the units and so on. Most of my sources have been written sources with very few pictures.

I've updated the post about tech trees: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...4&postcount=52

Now the post contains tech tree suggestions for all factions. One problem is that I couldn't find any good sources about magyar religion so I didn't know what their shrines should be dedicated too.

I'll see what I can do with the province list. Hopefully I'll be able to get a more complete province list ready by tomorrow. When that has been done, I can start working on the campaign map again, yay! Only the province names are really necessary before starting the work on the campaign map, the city names can easily be filled in later.

Edit: BTW some of my thoughts on the campaign map (I'd like to know what you think of these ideas): 1. less forests than in R:TW map, because much more forests had been chopped down at this time. 2. almost no inpenetrable forests at all - if there are forests they should be possible to move through in most cases (with a few exceptions though), 3. perhaps more varied terrain than in RTW, with more hills in the landscapes and so on, 4. possible to sail also in non-coastal seas (in vanilla R:TW you can't move too far away from the spanish coast etc.), 5. more lakes than in RTW in the areas where there are many lakes, 6. now that the team has so many modelers/skinners, I'll be able to put more effort into the campaign map making and I'll base the campaign map on real maps and pictures of different areas and try to make it as realistic as possible.

I also believe you skinners/modellers can start the work on the units shortly as I believe many of the units in the tech tree lists are units that simply HAVE to be in the mod, that probably won't need much discussion: viking berserkers, kataphraktoi, welsh longbowmen, varangian mercenaries etc. I suggest you who do the modelling and/or skinning discuss internally who will model/skin which units. My suggestion is that you, skeletor, primarily create the units that require new models while the others primarily try to skin units which could use almost the same models as in vanilla R:TW because you are the only modeller on the team right now. However, if you, skeletor, have time for it, I think we'd get an even better result if new models are created for all units. Then it'll be possible to slow down movement speed a little (by perhaps 20-40%), and implement more different movement speeds to add tactical depth and make lighter units more interesting etc. If you haven't got time to create that many models and animations, we'll have to find a compromise where we use existing models for many units. For example the chosen swordsmen have a model that I believe can be used for plenty of swordsmen carrying a round shield. And many of the cavalry models can also be reskinned and used almost directly.

Edit2: Here's a list of things I'd like to discuss about my tech tree lists:
1. should khazar too have access to camels? In the suggestion above they can't recruit camels.
2. should all factions be able to recruit the bedouin camels if they capture the zones of recruit where camels can be built for the factions that have camels now?
3. magyar shrines - what gods did they worship when they were pagan?
4. what extra happiness buildings should be used for the orthodox and muslim factions and khazar and magyars?
5. is any faction overpowered in your opinion?
6. are there too many or too few units?
7. should I have more zone of recruit for units and have more local specialists?
8. comments or better suggestions regarding the muslim, khazar and magyar units are welcome. I couldn't find that many sources about their armies so the current tech tree could be wrong

Hi all, I have some historic knowledge to display (sorry for my approximative english), about Brittany (where Im coming from).

Brittany was colonised by Romano-Brittons during the V and the VIth century, they come from Domnonia and Dyfed principaly. The Tierns (or little kings) of the Britons create 3 main kingdoms : Cornouailles, Domnonée and Bro-Erec.

In the late VIth century the Frank Clothaire fight with the Bretons and killed Conomor, a great breton leader.

During the reign of Carloman, the Franks overcame the Bretons who became their vassals.
But after the death of Louis le Pieux, about 843, Nominoé, who was the governor of Brittany and also a breton noble, take the head of an unrest against the new king of the Francs, Charles le Chauve, and win the victory of Ballon. It is only at this time that the franks countys of Rennes and Nantes becamed part of Brittany.
His son Erispoé became King of Brittany, after the victory of Messac against Charles. But Erispoé was killed by his cousin, Salomon. Salomon became king, and the franks give him the Cotentin (part of actuel Normandy).

When the Vikings rushed Brittany coast, they were going to make it a second normandy, with a lot of colonies like the island of Groix or a principauty next Nantes.
Alain Barbetorte was the grandson of the last king, Alain the Great, he have grew in the court of Aethelstan of Wessex. But he came back in Brittany and won the victory of Trans against the Norses, but then he can't be a king so a became the first duke of Brittany. Brittany stay independant from France until 1532.

Bretons have at the time of Nominoé a powerful war cavalry : they ride little horses, threw javelots in the face of the heavy frank infantry and go back.

I think it will be good too make the Bretons a rebel factions with this special cavalry unit recrutable, or eventually a real faction. At this time they have keep some relations with their cousins of Wales and Cornwall.

So if you want other informations about the Bretons, tell me. I can give you chronology or scans of the cavalry.

Also, this is a site dedicated to the dark age in Britain (V to the VIIth century but you can find infos) : www.earlybritishkingdoms.com

I have a project for a mod about the dark ages and the arthurian period, but I will made it only this automn, after the release of Barbarians Invasions.

Hi Agraes. As you might know, the R:TW engine has a limit to the number of factions you can have, and we've already reached that limit. Brittany will not be an own faction, but we plan to, if there's time and room for it, make all the rebels of the different provinces in the mod use troops typical to the region, either as unique units for the rebels faction, or by using almost similar units from the units that are already owned by the other factions. Either way, I'm thankful for the information you posted.

Ok no matter ~D

Anyway, I will enjoy your mod cause High Middle Age is a period I like so much, if I gather information on other Celts factions such as Welsh ; I will give transmeet it.

So Good Luck :medievalcheers:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Agraes

So if you want other informations about the Bretons, tell me. I can give you chronology or scans of the cavalry.

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If you know what city/town/village in Britanny was most important around 850 AD that'd be of much help. ~D

You also said you were good at Welsh history? Well, in the province list I've got the provinces:
* Gwyned (northern Wales) - ?
* Powys (middle Wales) - ?
* Gwent (southern Wales) - ?
* Dyfed (western Wales) - ?
* West Wealas / Cerniu / Cornwall - southwest England
I don't know which cities/towns/villages to use there either.

NEWS UPDATE May 24th, 2005
=======================
Province and tech tree lists updated. The province list is almost complete now but there are some regions which are very hard to find info about. Mostly North africa and Middle east regions lack good sources.

Mmm for Brittany the must will be to make 2 provinces : Brittany (Rebels) and Brittany March (Rennes and Nantes Counties).

In Brittany the main city can be Vannes (the name became Gwened in Breton), it was not the city where the kings where olding their court (they got palaces) but it was an important city.
In Brittany march, the capital may be Rennes or Nantes (the biggest), this march was made of two counties.

As I know, this is the main cities for the early middle age (V-VIth century) in Wales. Otherway you can refer to the cities in Viking Invasion ~;)

Gwent : Caerleon-upon-Uisc
Dyfed : Carmarthen (Caer-Myrddin)
Cerniu : Isca (modern Exeter) or Tintagel (a real place but was it an important stronghold in the IXth century ?)
Gwynedd : Deganwy, or Din Conwy (was the fortress of Maelgun Gwynedd, but it was destructed in 850)

Also, make Strathclyde as a rebel faction : it was a briton kingdom that became part of Scotland in the XIth century if I remeber.

Ok, nice. Do you know where I can find a good map indicating exactly where they cities are situated? I already have some maps but they aren't complete, especially for the Wales area, where they aren't showing a single town whereas they show around 50 towns for the England part of Britain...

Strathclyde will be rebels, yes.

@ALL mod team members: I've started work on campaign map again. If things keep going as well as they've done today I'll probably have something ready to show screenshots from in one or two weeks from now.

Aje.... :jumping:

Looking forward to that. My work have been a bit slow lately, and i have only half finished unit's yet. I had to do some try and fails, and that takes time, but unit's are comming.

Keep up the good work..

-Skel-

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Originally Posted by skeletor

unit's are comming

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Nice, now I'm jumping too :jumping:

Hey guys im a specialist historian on Medieval Britain and im from Wales so im sure i can help you.

As for the provinces, the Pembroke region of Wales as far east as Swansea was known as Deaubaerth (mind the spelling) and Gwent wasnt an area either, it was known as something different, joining all of South east wales. As for NorthWales you have Powys and Gwynydd. I love Welsh history and ive studied it in great detail, although i specialised in King John. If you want any help email me at oj121@hotmail.com and i will help if i can.

Things look really good here so far; I'm impressed. I have a suggestion, though. I've heard that when William the Conqueror invaded in 1066, the Saxon force that fought against him made particular use of slings. This may need to be verified, but I thought it might be a noteworthy addition to the Saxon roster.

As a total Viking fanatic, I am awaiting this mod and drooling! ~:cheers: