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On the Japanese Army list I noticed that a Ninja unit was conspicuously absent. Did the BL team leave them out purposefully?
If not, please throw them in the mix.
If so, please allow this poll to stay up, I would like to know what others in the Blue Lotus Community think, no harm can come of it.
Edit: Poll didn't seem to work, that's alright, voice your opinions anyway.
I read somewhere that Hoggy was not sure to include Ninja on the battlefield...
In fact I pretty much agree with him, a battle was not a ninja's place to be. But I'm sure that if enough people would beg him to add 'em, he'll surely listen to your plead.
Ninjas will be assassins on the strat map but not battlefield units. Unless there are sufficient people who want them and then we'll add them as mercenaries. Just not sure what good they'd be on a battlefield full of armoured units.
if you put them on the battlefield, you can make them like they were in STW, or like arcani in RTW - "hide anywhere" attribute.
personally, even though this is a fantasy mod, i'd rather not see them on the battlefield. although i won't object if you put them in after all. ;)
I humbly think that sticking ninjas on the battlefield is fantastical...Therefore perfectly suited for Blue Lotus.
Question: So the majority of units in this mod are armored? How did that happen? Won't there balance issues?
Alright, why don't you make Ninjas of armor-piercing unit of twelve ( or 20% of normal sized unit) with good speed, high disciple/moral, the ability to hide anywhere (if you could, even while on the move like in STW), a few hit points, and possibly inspiring fear.
Maybe you can make their special ability some sort of high damage precision strike either with shuriken or katana, either would be cool. The special ability could also be temporary invisibility.
Any other ideas?
Hoggy, you're the bee's knees, by the way.
what he means is, most of the units in the game have some sort of armour. whether it be ashigaru, who have very little armour, or no-dachi samurai, which have heavy armour. which would protect them against arrow fire. the ashigaru survive more by numbers than armour. ninja would have to be in small numbers. so if they were caught by archers they would be toast. where as the no-dachi would also have smaller numbers. they would survive archers with their large amounts of armour. which ninja dont have. i hope that made sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by ramareddy
hit points would keep them from dieing to quickly from archer fire. but may cause balance issues in melee. all the other things are good ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by ramareddy
i dont think those would be possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by ramareddy
anyway my vote would be for no battlefield ninja. i believe it would just overcrowd the japanese infantry which already exist. there are already plenty of sword and missile units.
Im for no as well. I never used the battlefield ninjas in STW. When i hear ninja i think assassination not the thick of battle.
but thats just me.
I vote no on ninjas on the battlefields...for now, at least. Maybe, when Blue Lotus will be out there could be a place for ninjas in a ninjas' lover-patch...
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...jalovefest.jpg
NINJA LOVE GONE BAD
ya I know I have to much time on my hands.......LOL
i dont think those would be possible.
anyway my vote would be for no battlefield ninja. i believe it would just overcrowd the japanese infantry which already exist. there are already plenty of sword and missile units.
- faithnomore
Are there not two Japanese factions? Why can't one of the two offer the Ninjas?
Also, take a gander at the Japanese unit list:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...1&page=1&pp=30
You'll notice that they are the least diverse of the main factions.
They have six swordsmen. Six. Ask yourself guys, how will you use these units uniquely on the battle field? They are all varying degrees of non-armor piercing offensive infantry. Sure, Japan was very sword oriented, but six? I say drop one of them and replace them with a ninja.
If ninjas were included, they would be the third, that's right, the third missile unit available to the Japanese. They would also be the first non-arrow shooting unit.
That being said, they do have a lot of swordsmen, but ninjas don't have to be sword-armed and the Japanese are definetly not overcrowded with missile units.
Im for no as well. I never used the battlefield ninjas in STW. When i hear ninja i think assassination not the thick of battle.
-shifty157
I have two words for you: Water Buffalo. Oh and when I hear "leopard" I think "stalking prey in sub-Saharan Africa" not the thick of battle. Some of these cool units come out of left-field, but we don't care, because it will add to our gaming experience. Likewise, not adding ninjas would simply make the game (and especially the Japanese faction(s)) blander.
If you never used Ninjas in STW, I'm sorry. I would regret that too.
I think battlefield ninjas would be a good unit to have and allow a variety in battle tactics. I know in S:TW that if I was desperate to get rid of an enemy General or Shogun and I had no chance of taking him out with a regular Ninja I would either send an army with a couple units of ninjas to try to spring an elaborate trap. Otherwise I would just send two units of ninjas into battle with his full stack army and use one to distract his army while I would try to sneak the other around and assassinate him from behind. Granted, such tactics were difficult to make successful, but it allowed me to take battles in a different direction and made for some very interesting gameplay.
Even sometimes in R:TW I have used a similar tactic during campaign games. I will send an army of two cavalry units to battle against an enemy's best full stack generals and use the above tactic to assassinate the leader and then retreat. This tactic, is my desperate tactic when I have no armies in an area that can match such a powerful army and general.
Also, with such a unit it would force players to actually do something with their generals instead of just keeping them at the back.
ramaready, dont take it so personal that everyone dosen't agree completely with you. opinions are like assholes everyones got one. :bow:
I didn't take it personally at all.
I just think the "anti-ninja" side of this argument doesn't have great points, besides hoggy having to do more work ( which is appreciated). In any case, he would add ninjas if there is enough of demand from the BL community, and that's all I am trying to create.
~:grouphug:
Ninjas as mercenaries, maybe. Or a region specific unit avaible in one starting province for each of the japanese factions, that would stop them from overflowing the world.
And I see ninjas as someone with throwing knives/stars, great speed and ability to hide anywhere, and with an ability to cause havoc in combat, even against armoured opponents, but only for a short time. After the inital clash, they are dead. Finished. Hacked to pieces.
But yay for battlefield ninjas! ~;)
i dunno, i dig the ideas of ninjas on the battlefield, so it's not too accurate, but neither are demons and evil zombie bull riders...
they could be a band of like 6-8, very very highly trained (maybe not much armour, but very very good defensive skill) units that could hide anywhere. I could see them as being impervious, or at least very very hard to hit with arrows (think cheesy kung fu movies, dodging and blocking tons of arrows) but i don't know if vs arrows and vs other weapons are two different and independent factors...
they themselves could have a few ranged weapons under their sleeves, maybe able to throw 2 or 3 volleys of shurkien.
ninja's on a battle field come on! truly it sounds ridiculous to me!
on shogun total war you got battle feild ninjas but they were kinda pointless in a big battle in 'vanilla' total war there were the arcanii (sp?) which ruined a decent battle (i think)
but maybe if someone tested it with battle field ninjas on BL andthey were alrite then we could include them but if they suck then there is no point in including them in battle.....
maybe the chinese should get the Geisha and the japanese the Ninja as an assassin unit on the campaign map? would there be any similar units for other factions though?
Well if you already are going to have hero units, which are small but powerful, then maybe you can add a ninja hero unit later. Maybe make it a mercenary hero. Either way you choose to go, i think the most important thing is finishing what you've already decided on, then you can work on additions.
Ninjas instaed of assasins looks like a better solution to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by GiantMonkeyMan
yeah Ithink they should do it like that!
Gert:
Ninjas ARE ALREADY going to be assassins on the strategic map. We are specifically talking about them in the context of the battle map.
GiantMonkeyMan:
Geishas are not Chinese.
Hoggy:
Will the ninjas on the strategic map be uber-assassins, or is it just a skin?
it's not possible to have faction specific/unique assassains? (like some factions having better/worse assassains/spies/diplomats)
i watched this movie and it had a chinese geisha but... if you say so
you can have different faction assasins cos each faction has a different skin for their diplomats, spies and assasins you could maybe change each one the only problem is it is weird how they are positioned when you open it in photoshop.... :dizzy2:
Umm. He's right. Geisha are uniquely japanese.. Make-up, however, isn't.. Which, in addition to the fact that it was a movie, would exdplain your chinses movie Geisha.. Just a thought.
Also, I have reviewed the japanese unit list, and I can only find 4 sword units..
you claim that there are chinese geishas simply by citing a MOVIE?!?!
Temple:
Samurai Infantry
Samurai Heavy Infantry (No Dachi)
Elite Swordsmen
Kamikaze
Hero Ronin
Hero: Tomoe Gozen
Yeah, just as rediculous as Demons!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertgregoor
Wait a second....
If Ninja do go into the mod, my personal belief is that they would add to it's atmosphere. Though their stats could be difficult. My thoughts would be giving them a decent attack and high charge bonus (representing their sudden attack), good defensive skill, no armour, and a high shield bonus. (No, I'm not mad, and I don't want the Ninjas to have shields. I figure the shield bonus would give them a good defense against missile attacks coming from ahead, representing them dodging the attack)
ok ok i know nothing of geishas.... :embarassed:
but i do know that in a battle a group of around 50 ninja killed up to a thousand samari so they were used in battle (although i think this was exaggerated) if they are included it will be ok they aren't as unrealistic as demons plus it would give the japanese an edge that no other faction has :bow:
Perhaps one of the japanese hero units could be replaced with a battlefield ninja unit? That would keep the current power level by just replacing one elite unit with another while still giving the japanese their battlefield ninjas.
Just a thought that might please everyone.
To reiterate my opinion. Why not have the ninjas be mercenary heroes? All the factions have a hero unit or two, why not a mercenary hero, since ninjas are mercenaries in nature? Also, why don't we quibble about what to add AFTER hoggy and the team finish what's already planned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonXXIV
Well stated.
Dragoon:
Balancing issues have to be squared away, and the sooner Hoggy knows what will be added, the better.
Adding them as a mercenary/region specific unit sounds good, I simply wanted them in the game.
Keep in mind that Hoggy can make nearly naked men with baskets over their heads look cool. Imagine what he could do with ninjas.
i just can't wait for it to come out!!!!
there seems to be alot of argument over the realism of ninjas on the battlefield. thats not exactly what this discussion is about. since obviously demons and the like are fictional characters.
my points are these:
they are already planned for depiction as assasins.
i feel the armylist for the japanese is quite full. and all the models are made. so to take some out would be a waste of our (mostly hoggy's) time.
once again "realism" is not an issue AT ALL.
all that said, keep both sides points coming. its quite interesting to see what everyone has to say about this.
if you are not adding it to the japanese factions then it would be great in a rebel army near/in japan.... they are after all supposed to be enemies of the samurai or that is how i inturpreted it
:dizzy2: ~:confused: dude, what movies have you been watching? first "chinese geishas", now this? ~D :charge:Quote:
Originally Posted by GiantMonkeyMan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja
actually it is from shogun: TW i kinda thought (from all those ninja assasination movies) that ninjas were probably despised by the samurai :embarassed: ..... i should research more :book: :book:
but i still think ninjas would be cool
those assassination clips were great. they were one of the best parts of stw. i still have them all somewhere on my computer.
I'm not debating the realism of ninjas. I simply think that the Japanese faction(s) are packed with swordsmen with VERY similar roles on the battle field and therefore need variety.Quote:
Originally Posted by blindfaithnogod
If you are confused, look at my previous posts.
Nothing like using your ninjas to sneak in behind enemy lines to assassinate the enemy general just as the battle is about to begin..
Ninjas allow for a much more complex battle and also help to allow players to battle in a different style with different tactics. It also allows a player to with a much smaller army to grasp victory from the jaws of defeat through a battlefield assassination.
Also I know Ieyasu Tokugawa used Ninjas on the battlefield, atleast once.
I think hoggy has the right idea in keeping ninjas off the battlefield.
Give us a good reason, Tricon.
I am both for and against the idea of ninjas on the battlefield.
The against-part sounds pretty much like the reasons that people before me have posted... "not historically correct", "ninjas are assassins" etc.
But hey! This is a fantasy and mythological mod, so why not include some kind of battle field ninja?
The more I think about it the more I like the idea. It would be a very specialized and not very a very common unit, but it would definitely fill its place.
I like the idea that the ninja should be programmed to always attack the standard bearer or captain of the targeted troop. When the ninja has done that it flees from combat. The ninja should also be perfectly invisible when being in lush terrain, woods or in a cluster of houses.
The ninja should also be very fast moving but weak and pretty armorless.
You could have a unit named "Battle feild ninja's" like STW but they are crap in the open but great iin forested area's and at night so they make good ambushe's but not very good defender's / basic infantry. --------------------------------------------------------------------------the modern battle feild ninja's!! look like the following... :helmet: :disguise: :disguise: :disguise: :helmet: :afro: :alien: :pumpkin: :batman:
This is exactly correct. And it would be fun to have a battle on say forested battle map where one or two units of NInjas attacked a huge army of their enemies all by themselves. Then the battle would become an assasination mission up close and in your face! You unit or units would spend the entire "battle" creeping about looking for a way to do thier hit and then escape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kageka
And isn't there already a RTW unit in the Vanilla that's some sort of absurd Latin Ninjas? It would be pretty straightforward to mod them. In the case of a beseiged army it would be cool if the Ninja's were given the ability to stealthily scale the walls and sneak into the citadel or walled city...
Actually no. Geisha's arn't uniquely Japanese.Quote:
Originally Posted by Temple
Korea has had Gisaengs (A.K.A. Geishas) since the Shilla and Goryeo dynasties.
I believe China had them too, but I don't really remember what they were called.
Geisha's are essentially drinking buddies. Nothing too special.
The generals unit is always visible, so while the idea is neat it isn't possible in Total War.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferocious_Imbecile
If you're not gonna use ninja's; then how about pirates?
Hm..like Wokou-ish?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebus
As mercenaries or a rebel faction?
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by ramareddy
Personal preference. Probably not good enough for the likes of you.
I was kidding... My next suggestion was going to be mechs ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by shifty157
Well, just make the Ninja's mercenaries (like they were, really. They were paid assassins rather then loyal to any specific cause) and it deals with several issues:
1. The computer -rarely- (if ever) uses mercenaries, so if certain players don't want Ninja's to interfere with their experience, they just have to avoid using them, and they won't have any nasty-black-pyjama wearing men getting in the way.
2. They won't be a unit restricted to Japan, and thus won't get in the way of Japan already having a huge number of sword-men available.
3. It allow's people who do want to use Ninja's to use them, but they could be restricted in numbers so getting more then two or so an army would take a VERY long time to pull off.
if the decision is made to add the ninjas. i would rather them be mercs, than part of the regular army. although i still feel that there will plenty of variety, unit wise, to give the player a great experience.
Tricon:
The "likes of me" include Jesus, Gandhi, Einstein and (dare I say) Hoggy.
And you're right, "Personal Preference" is not good enough for any of us, as there is always a reason behind preference. For example, I don't like plain yogurt because of the smell.
Did ninjas kill your parents or something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramareddy
That would be so cool.
Then you could go on a quest unraveling ancient secret ninja organisations in order to find the ninja that killed your parents, and then carefully plan out your revenge...
Don't forget to patent the movie rights!
Either that or you'd type in "Ninja's to get revenge on" in Google, and die ten seconds later from a Ninja-sword to the head.
Now, who can argue with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by ramareddy
No. Just for you. So, I was right. Thanks for proving my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by ramareddy
But I give you a point for persistance.... so, I'll give you a reason.
In my opinion (opinion, preferance... what's the difference, ey?), ninjas are not a viable military unit.
They're also a troublemaker unit, because almost everybody sees them differently in terms of fighting ability. I'ld give them descend to good offensive capability, good defense, no armor, fast, ability to hide everywhere.
No idea about standard or secondary weapon.
All in all: Very capable to assasinate people. Not good in formation combat.
This game engine cannot correctly portray the use of ninjas. The closest this engine can manage is as assassins. That it's a fantasy mod does not really change anything.
Maybe you'ld make them elite warriors, maybe not. But you would probably insist that your perception is the only correct one.
i think that hoggy should make them as he planned (if he did???) but make a tutorial that would show people how to remove them or add them.... that way people who want ninjas will get them and those who think they are not suited to the battle field will not have to enjure it....
although i recon using battle field ninjas would be great fun... the ultimate demon killers i would welcome the chance to have them hunt down elite units and (hopefully) wipe them out
Tricon, you raise some good points, however:
True, but that's the case with every mod for games based on popular fantasy/real realms, every disagrees on how things should be portrayed. To prove my point, go to the official R:TW forums and say the following.Quote:
They're also a troublemaker unit, because almost everybody sees them differently in terms of fighting ability
"Roman cavalry should be near useless, and Germans shouldn't have phalanx."
You'll be flamed, defended, counter-flamed, counter-defended, backhanded, b**chslaped and flamed.
Two counter arguements.Quote:
This game engine cannot correctly portray the use of ninjas. The closest this engine can manage is as assassins. That it's a fantasy mod does not really change anything.
1. Yes, in Historical terms Ninja's were elite Assassins, but this mod seems more based on fantastical things then historical, just look at a TV show like Shintaro.
2.If things like Beserkers can be worked around (they don't fight in formation) I can't see why Ninja's couldn't be worked around.
But in essence, it's Hoggy's decision. Either way people will complain
"Why aren't there Ninja's? They'd be cool!"
"Why are there Ninja's? You suck!"
I was just thinking about the same idea! i didnt read the entire thread so i may have old infarmation but personally i would think that, this being a fantasy mod, nijas would fit in perfectly, they could simply replace arcanii as arcanii never really entered any battles either, they can be really good stealth units:
can hide anywhere
really fast
throws shirken or throwing stars or knifes or . . . etc
close combat with a knife or sword or big throwing star? etc
uber morale
it'd be cool if they could jump . . .
maybe sacres enemy units?
and since this is a fantasy mod, why not give them magical powers? (if any of u are still young and read manga, like naruto) they can breath fire and crap.
so my vote is yes, or is this a team only vote? *is excluded* ~:cheers:
I'm not really arguing the point. My opinion is as good as yours. I was merely defending the point that I'm against it and that it is because of personal preference. After stating so I was basically done, but somebody insisted that I give reasons. So I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by SJRlunchbox
edit: one silly statement deleted
Ok folks. Top debate. Here's the final results..
We will have ninja on the strat map as assasins.
We will have battlefield ninja as mercenaries and...
we will supply after the release of the mod a simple patch or description of how to add battlefield ninja to the japanese faction for those that want them.
how does that sound? best of all worlds :bow:
I like the idea of ninjas on the battlefield, simply becuase I'd like to see what hoggy could come up with. lord knows they would look awesome.
excellent hoggy! so it is decided.... and i can't wait for you to make them! :bow: :bow:
Thanks Hoggy, you're a champion.
I (heart) flexible modders
i havent downloaded the mod yet, but i cant keep a way from a topic about ninjas,
just thought i'd say how ironic it is that people say ninjas shouldnt be battlefield units but assassins, when historically it was the other way around. there is no real evidence that they ever assassinated anyone, but they had a good reputation as spies and as warriors that could easily enter castles (by dressing in the enemy's uniform).
so if it was up to me, if possible, i would use them as spy units that could be hired as mercenaries, and/or as mercenary battlefield units to played in an underhand, guerilla fashion
Hi,
I have been playing as the Akagi Clan and have been recruiting ninjas mercenaries. They come in a unit of 16 I think if I remember correctly and have serve well as heavy infantry units. I must say they look cool and impressive. I'm glad the mod did included the ninjas, as mercenaries, not a bad idea. :P
I think that you are going to have a sweet unit like Ninjas, and by sweet I mean totally awesome, then you need to have a unit to counter them.
And everybody knows the only beings able to counter the awesomeness of Ninja are PIRATES ! :skull: :skull: :skull:
Ninja should also have the rampage abilty as everybody knows that Ninjas can flip out and kill anyone at any time.
I actually agree with that!
It seems the rampage abaility turns mediocre small units inot small killing machines!
Ninjas for rampage YEa! :2thumbsup: :skull: :2thumbsup:
Hoggy how about a ninja faction? They would be like revels and live far in between. (Ninjas are cooler than pirates)
What about Ninja Pirates ?:inquisitive:
That would be even better:2thumbsup: