Please comemorate what happened on the 29th of May 1453.....
God bless the Orthodox Constantinople.....
@ admins: Please do not delete the post as this is of great historical importance to the whole world....
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Please comemorate what happened on the 29th of May 1453.....
God bless the Orthodox Constantinople.....
@ admins: Please do not delete the post as this is of great historical importance to the whole world....
Here's a picture of the end of the romano/greek state:
http://img41.echo.cx/img41/4041/j9918973vs.jpg
I hope I was there to kill the bastard who left one of the gates open for the Turks to get in. :furious3:
The fall of probably the greatest empire ever lead to many evils. It may be defeated, its armies ground into the dust, but its glory will live for ever.
King Henry... I greatly respect your words... In my opinion, the Byzantine Empire was the greatest empire and also the most educated that has existed....
Basileos Alexios I Comnen :bow: (it's gonna be my signature)
The history is a bit sad though. So many set backs for such a beautiful nation.
I wonder if there are links with pictures of Constantinople(not the map, I have it)...
It's my fav MTW faction,also...
I'll post a picture every time I post here, to add to the theme.
http://img92.echo.cx/img92/5395/cons...lewalls5uy.jpg
I love Κωσταντινουπολη as well. I wish it had survived as it was. It would have been the Capital of the World. :bow:
God, why did the Truks have to do that?
Ladies and Gentelmen, I give to you the Hippodrome:
http://www.byzantium1200.com/images/hippodrome3.jpg
http://www.byzantium1200.com/hipodrom.html
Wow... Thnx for the pics!!!! PLz continue!!!
P.S.: I've posted my Fall of Constantinople story in the Mead Hall
The byzantine empire was a faint shadow of its former self by the time the Ottomans attacked.
They relied too much on foreign soldiers, who turned against them over time.
It didn't help that the catholic world just let things happen when they had promised aid.
Note 1: that is ol' Mehmed watching as his fleet gets its ass owned by the Genoese and Greeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
Note 2: The Kerkoporta was at the moment of the final assault obstructed by debris left behind by the collapse of one of the great towers defending the Blachernae quarter. The bashi-bazouks found it, and stormed through.
Note 3: Try to say that the siege of Constantinople had any possibility of victory in it for the Byzantines. It didn't. Especially not after Galata was taken by Mehmed. The outcome could not at that time, and cannot now, ever have been disputed. Which is why the Genoese allowed Mehmed to come through Galata without a fight.
And finally, the Byzantines caused their own downfall. When one studies the history of their decline and eventual fall, one sees that at every moment when they needed one thing, they got the opposite.
When they needed longevity, they got premature death (John Kaloianis). When they needed allies, they got enemies. When they needed loyalty, they got dissension. When they needed strength, it got weakness. When it needed unity, it got civil war.
Byzantium was plagued by the bad basileioi at the bad time. And when Andronicus II and John V needed to die quickly, they had the two longest reigns in Byzantine history. Plus the fact that the Byzantines never ceased what seemed to be a Roman tradition: civil war. Even when it was clear as day that the Byzantine empire was in a deep crisis and needed unity and strong leadership to survive at all, as with John VI Cantacuzenus, the Byzantine aristrocrats never stopped their foul plotting and intriguing against him, and amongst each other. The Byzantine crown jewels were pawned for a loan of 30,000 ducats by Empress Anne to finance her struggle against John. A loan! And it didn't even arrive!
No, the Byzantines had nobody but themselves to thank for their downfall. While around them their enemies never diminished in number and vigor, the Byzantines blissfully ignored them and kept plotting and intriguing amongst each other, as if they were still the greatest empire in Europe. Take one look at the rule of Andronicus II, and you will understand. One almost wants to quit reading of the Byzantines to learn of the vigorous young empire of the Ottomans, if only to escape the senseless infighting over power that meant nothing.
The reception of Manuel II gives a little respite, and it is not until one reads of the honor and nobility displayed by the defenders of Constantinople (except the cowardly Genoese, who sailed off a day after pledging their aid to the defence), chief amongst them Constantine Dragases, that one regains the interest to read to the very end. And after that, one is left to lament all the choices of stupidity that led to the downfall of a people capable of such nobility of spirit, yet also such deplorable decadence and intrigue.
~Wiz
I salute to late Empire of bysantium and its glorius capital Konstantinopol.
That day so many ears a go,one of the greatest lights of civilized world turned of,like a candle in the wind.
Though i think it was an honourable end for a once mighty Empire.Fighting to the end against wast hordes of Turks.Last Caesar himself dying sword in his hand.
Ave!
I know the Byzantine history but also thank you for extra info...
I need rapidly to find link for a complete history of the Byzantine Empire...
Can anyone help???
There are books about the complete history of Byzantium.
Check the sticky at the top of the Monastery for links about The Eastern Roman Empire.
Yeah that would be realy useful, especially for my story, the Gold of Byzantium, set in the somewhat happier days of the 1150s, when one of the greatest of the Kmnenoi dynasty, Manuel, ruled. A great source for Eastern Roman history are the Medieval History Magazines, although I don't know if they are publishing them anymore. Its editor, Dr Timothy Dawson, is a great expert on the subject
WOW!!!!! Medieval History Magazine!!!!!! Man, where can I find this??????!!!!!!!
Incredible!!!!!!!!!
Yep my monthly visit to the Monastry is here. I am still young so i dont know as much as you guys but anyway. I read that didnt the Turks in there seige build castles to stop boats geting through like a dam? So that the west could not provide resourses e.c.t? Any way it was brave how they fought to the end 7000 Byzantines vs 80000 Turks. the Byzantine empire truley was one that was great. i think they should teach us more about this great empire by describing it as the continuation of the Roman. I salute those late dead soles who fought to the last to defend there glourious kingdom.
There is a Great novel by Mika Waltari called Mikael Angelikos its fiction but it tells a very beutifull but sad story about those last few weeks and the fall of Konstantinopol.
I can't the stand the Byzantine Empire. There is something about it that makes me hate it.
All I can think off is Greek churches. They look terrible. They look sort of classical, but with a tiny dome. And there is too much gold, like catholic churches, they are bling bling churches.
I am the anti-bling.
http://www.greeceathensaegeaninfo.co...YMettus11c.jpg
I have been Istanbul, which I think it Greek for "In the city" or somthing like that. It is an interesting place.
Well looking at these pictures I'd say the 29th of May isn't a day people are likely to forget:Quote:
Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
http://www.hurriyetim.com.tr/display...,,86847,00.jpg
http://www.zaman.com.tr/2004/05/30/fetih.jpg
http://www.zaman.com.tr/2003/05/30/resim/fetih.jpg
http://www.onurluhamle.com/IMAGES/009.jpg
Location: Merseyside ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Martinus
Constantinople means Constantines city (It was refered to as "Polis" The city)Quote:
I have been Istanbul, which I think it Greek for "In the city" or somthing like that. It is an interesting place.
Istanbul Is the Turkish name for it, It means the city and was renamed from constantinople in 1923
I know that.Quote:
Constantinople means Constantines city (It was refered to as "Polis" The city)
The tour guide said it was Greek. So did Terry Jones on a program about the crusades.Quote:
Istanbul Is the Turkish name for it, It means the city and was renamed from constantinople in 1923
Istambul = is tin Polin (to the City)
Constantinople was often referred to as the City. That's one explanation anyways.
So it is Greek?
I think it's Turkish, since the various Turkish invaders would ask the locals in Anatolia "where does this road lead to?", and they would reply "Is tin polin".
Εις την Πολην is greek, not Turkish.
For those friends still missing Constantinople,
Istanbul is well and healthy, we are looking after it carefully.. Do not hesitate visiting.. That culture melting-pot city has no equivalent in the whole world.
After all, all empires die somehow. So did the Byzantium. I personally am proud of the Ottoman Empire but not missing it in sorrow..
Byzantian Prince, The picture seems pretty beautiful. Can you drop us a link if there is a wider version is online ?
King Henry V, no evil ever happened after the fall of Istanbul.
You can guess the historical reasons behind the conquest of such a strategic city. But there is another reason that the conquest of Istanbul was important :Quote:
God, why did the Truks have to do that?
Hz. Muhammed - the Islamic prophet, had promised his praise upon the one to conquer Istanbul. Ottoman Empire was always a religious empire, since its founder Osman Beg, so such an attempt was unavoidable.
Istanbul is usually agreed to come from eis ten Polèn which is Greek for 'to the City'. The Byzantines casually called Constantinople hè Polis, the City. The phrase eis ten Polèn was on the roadsigns pointing in the direction of Constantinople. It was apparently dumbed down to Stamboul, from which Istanbul is easily derived.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadesPanther
And there is indeed nothing wrong with Istanbul. Wonderful city! I'm probably going to end up living there. ~;p
~Wiz
Same here, The Wizard. I wish we could be homemates so that we could give long hours of LAN party with TW series :P
I don't like one thing at Istanbul: the lack of greatness as it once was when it was Constantinople....
I've seen Istanbul...great city....
And another thing.... Hagia Sophia was turned into a mosque :((((((((((((
And it lost much of its decorational beauty like the mosiacs.
I'd say that the recent atrocities in the Balkans had quite a bit to do with Ottoman expansionism.
The attrocities of the Balkans were a result of the ultranationalist sentiment that was instilled in those peoples.
Yes, but if the forced conversion of much of the Albanian population and the subsequent immigration of Serbs into the Austrian Empire had not happened, I doubt the massacres would have occured.
Yeah...You're right
But about the Hagia Sophia, I'm hoping that one day it will become a orthodox cathedral again....
The mosaics are now being restored :)
Bullocks. Musings and idle wishings. You cannot attribute the racial cleansing in the Balkan Wars to so indirect a cause.
By far most of the damage done to Constantinople was done by the Fourth Crusade and the great fire of 1204. Almost all of the Hippodrome was destroyed, as well as many, many other buildings. Geoffrey de Villehourdain (sp?), who chronicled the Fourth Crusade, stated that 'as many houses were burned as there are houses in the three greatest cities of France'.
Then there was the ignorance and naïveté with which the last Byzantine emperors handled their situation. They insisted on keeping up the myth of a powerful Byzantium by spending huge amounts of money on the fake splendor of their court, while around them their currency was crashing and burning and their army and navy were being ignored, most of all in the reign of Andronicus II. And while all that was happening, the Genoese and the Venetians fought upon the dying body of Byzantium over trade supremacy. With no trade, and no efficient agriculture supporting surpluses for trade, Constantinople emptied out until in 1453 there were only ten to twenty thousand people living there.
The pillaging which was usual after Turks captured a city started immediately after the walls were breached, which was early in the afternoon. Mehmed put a stop to it after the ending of the first day, while Turkish soldiers were usually promised three days. Compare this to the senseless destruction, lasting over three days, in 1204. No, the Turks brought a renewed vigor into a dying city.
And, oh well, Hagia Sophia is a mosque. Constantinople fell five hundred and fity years ago. Get over it. The only thing I don't like is that the qa'aba (sp?), which gives the direction in which Mecca is, is out of place instead of being in the center of the upper wall. It's not very aesthetically pleasing, if you ask me. The Blue Mosque is more beautiful, if you ask me.
~Wiz
the fall of Carigrad is the most important event in medieval history in eruropa for mine nation it marked 500 of darkness so it is a bit unpleasant to hear from The Wizard his comments about years pas :furious3: t
One of the most important roles Constantinople played in history was that he kept antic culture up to medival times , too bad it was not mentioned here.
The Hagia Sophia is actually a museum now. After the Turks recaptured Istanbul from the Greeks after the WWI Mustafa Kemal Ataturk got a message from the Pope to turn the Haghia Sophia back into a Church and not a Mosque, he replied with: "If I turn it into a Church I will have the Muslim world against me, I I turn it into a Mosque I shall have the Christian world against me. Therefore I have decided to turn it into a museum where all people will be welcome despite their religion." Personally I think that was a VERY wise choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
Conversion of cathedrals to mosques is common in Ottoman culture. A very little one in Bodrum Castle was even turned into a mosque.
History is history. Remembering the events and adding up emotions into it is what we are still giving the struggle of today. It grows nothing but anger, and it never did.
Istanbul is climbing back to the point where it belongs to. The city of festivals and cultural actions. It was always a big city. And it will just be bigger in every terms, do not doubt it.
Your ancestors destroyed our world nothig will be as it was never will Constantinople bee Miklagradd as Vikings called it
Do remember that the Turkish advance was so rapid because they were hailed as liberators by the peasants. In effect, they reinstated the ancient thematic system of the Byzantines, but then without military obligations, leaving the giving of children as slaves to be made part of the yeni çerii out. What more can a peasant wish for? No longer part of the land, but the land is once again his, and he no longer has to oblige to cruel lordly rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magister Pediyum
And sporadic forced conversions to Islam aside, what did the Ottomans actually mean to Serbia? Your culture and religion are intact, are they not? You are not speaking Turkish, are you? It's a world away from the Romans, who turned everybody into speakers of Latin. No, the Ottomans were not darkness, if you ignore the fact that they took away Serbian independence. But, if lack of independence defines so-called 'darkness' for you, then, indeed, it meant five hundred years of darkness.
And do remember that most of Serbia and Bulgaria had been paying homage to the Sultan since the second half of the 14th century. Your great hero, Marko Kralyevich, was a loyal vassal, at least on the surface, if memory serves.
~Wiz
This is an offense. I reported it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magister Pediyum
our culture intact do you now what is for a nation to bee impaled on a pike like a pig we left medieval ages in 1838
In the west they where bulding steam machines wile we had land base service read Janicharas memories by Constantine Mihalovich and the you talk about intact culture
That may well be, but the fact that in Serbia there were no steam engines yet does not define your culture. I find it quite amazing that Serbian culture was robust and integral enough to remain intact for five hundred years.
But do remember that in Eastern Europe such technology, as well as the Industrial Revolution as a whole, did not arrive until much later. Russia, a 'free' nation, was an agricultural society up until Stalin's time, so much so that Lenin created 'professional revolutionaries' because there weren't enough laborers to join the revolution as described in Marx's theory. Besides, here in the Netherlands we did not industrialize until the nineties of the 19th century.
Still, you are right if you suppose that that was the fault of the Ottomans, in the case of Serbia. But the amount of industrialization still does not define culture.
~Wiz
There was actually a pretty good reason for the Ottomans becoming 'backwards' when it came to modernization. The printing press was first used in the Ottoman Empire 300 years after its invention, you want to know why? The Sultans forbade it because they believed it would cost too many jobs, which would cause the populace to suffer. I believe this was also the case with the Industrial Revolution.
The jobs were those masters of handwriting called "katip"s. Neverthless, he industrialization of Ottomans was demolished by so many other reasons as well. The discovery of New World which led to loss of importance of trade routes that go through Ottoman reign, the militaristic defeats, the decay in the management levels all added up to Ottomans' fall back in industrial terms. And you know that you can not maintain your political power if you lose your economic strength.
Thus it is not rational to accuse Ottomans for Serbians getting overlapped in Industrial Revolution. Because Ottomans themselves were set back.
To be honest, almost every european can associate something with Constantinople. Almost everyone loves the romanticism and the idea that the Byzantine Empire lay on the fringes of modern Europe. Losing it to the Turks was a major blow for ALL European's at that time, the Turk became an even bigger threat to Europe and the catholic world knew something must be done about it.
As the natural heirs to the Roman Empire, they have deep sympathy routed in many people's minds. Although the army had changed much from the Western Roman days, they still had much of the same legacy and political ideas entrenched deep within their society. And like all good Roman's, liked to fight between each other like spoilt children :duel:
It is a shame but like all historical tragedies they are now in the past and we can only speculate and discuss what could have been. I would love to visit Istanbul and see what was left behind by such a great Empire.
My favourite Ottoman idea was the janissary - a Christian child raised as a servant to the sultan. A certain irony exists in this idea, but as soldiers these were perhaps my favourite type medieval corps.
I don't get you Wizard, why is it you put in so much superflous information? It makes every post you make seam arrogant, as if we don't know any of that stuff, which I'm sure I for one do. Not to mention you make mistakes.
Here's one:
Serbians are a Slavic group of the Balkans which means they came in about the 5th century when the Empire was not speaking latin anymore nor could it enforce everyone to speak Greek, which became the official language the Eastern Empire. Albanians were under Rome since 168 BC and yet they retained their langauge for the most part.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wizard
The reason they were 10,000 left was because the Turks had been besieging the area for decades on end. The trade was minimal and the food that come in was minimal so the people would leave for fear of starvation. Don't blame this on anyone but Turks.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wizard
The Romaioi didn't forced us to bee greeks they gave us written word culture lords word.
They gave us chance to bee part of the tradition don't give me wrong i don't
say that i am always right but i am senior in medieval studies and as history is based on sources they speak that Orthodox people of europe where at least on same bases with the west and then the turks came if you don't belive me read Pseudo-Bertrand Burgundian knight who travelled thru Balkans from 1436-1440 and wrought of the desert he saw
when the turks took const' in 1453 and even before , europe lost its trade paths to the east , so , the western europeans had to find another path to india and the rest is history
Yep, that's why all those explorations started and how America was colonised. So in short if it wasn't for the Turks we wouldn't have the U.S. telling us what is right and what is wrong, wouldn't that be a damn shame? ~D ~D
It was a comparison between the Ottoman and Roman empires. Whatever people inhabited the territory of what is now Serbia spoke Latin by the 2nd century AD. Mistakes? I think not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Byzantine Prince
I strongly object. It was one of the reasons, but only one. People indeed left for Mystras because there they could live out a nice and calm life instead of being in fear of sieges.Quote:
The reason they were 10,000 left was because the Turks had been besieging the area for decades on end. The trade was minimal and the food that come in was minimal so the people would leave for fear of starvation. Don't blame this on anyone but Turks.
But modern historians estimate the population of Constantinople at the turn of the 14th century (i.e. 1401) at fifty thousand at the very most. That's an optimistic estimate, mind you. A French chronicler who travelled alongside marshal Boucicault of France, who went to help Manuel II in the very late 14th century, noted that people lived in clusters of huts in the valley of the Lycus, giving the impression of a perimetered region in stead of a city.
But sieges are only one of the reasons. The pronoai system, which had at first been a system of land grants to favorite courtlings and family under Alexius Comnenus, had gotten totally out of hand and effectively turned Byzantium into a feudal society. The inefficiency that came with it led to a lack of surpluses, which led to a lack of tradeable goods. Then there were the Genoese and Venetians who fought out entire wars in Byzantine waters (three battles outside the Golden Horn within five years). And the Byzantines couldn't build any navy or trade fleets to stop them, because the tax collectors they sent to the great land owners just got paid off!
So: no livelihood, no-one in your city. Besides, the city had already been heavily depopulated in the Fourth Crusade and its aftermath. The sieges carried out by the Sultans were only one factor amongst many.
And if you feel that I am being arrogant towards you because I give a whole lot of facts to support my arguments, then I am sorry. I guess in the future I will try to support my claims without solid evidence. :bow:
So, let me get this straight. If the conqueror takes away your culture, that is good? Remember that the Cyrillic alphabet was developed not under the Byzantines, but in the literary schools of Bulgaria. No conqueror involved. And the Turks did not do what the Romans did, for there are no languages in the Balkans today which are Altaic or based on Turkish. Unlike the Romance languages in Western and Southern Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magister Pediyum
~Wiz
How come you're not a famous historian???? :-O
You know extremely well history!!!!
First thing first it wasn't developed in Bulgaria it was developed in Solun Cyril and Metodije where from Solun and they where going on a mission from Romans to Slavs in Moravia.
Second Cyrillic alphabet has emerge from greek alphabet and third they gave as land to settle there was no major battles
force your argumets whit more facts it is the only way to study history but some facts that you have are a somewhat uncorrect but never mind that is the thrill of History we make mistakes we read and we correct them
No he doesn't, he just memorizes those crappy Osprey books and then repeats everything. I can tell because he always includes superflous information he has read.Quote:
Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
famous historian - isn't that an oxymoron? ~;)
To Byzantine Prince:
Long live the land of Romaioi and the Prince who will one day bee crowned in purple who will bee called Prince of Romans or Romaioi may he rule from capital in Golden Horn well and we who are his children will bee with him side by side
If you are reffering to Wiz, you are incorrect. Wiz is very knowledgable about historical matters, and not nearly as biased as some people in this thread are.Quote:
No he doesn't, he just memorizes those crappy Osprey books and then repeats everything. I can tell because he always includes superflous information he has read.
Sweet dreams are made of these..
About what ....
[QUOTE=The Wizard]So, let me get this straight. If the conqueror takes away your culture, that is good? Remember that the Cyrillic alphabet was developed not under the Byzantines, but in the literary schools of Bulgaria. No conqueror involvedCyril and Methodius, Saints, brothers, born in Thessalonica, Greece, known as the “apostles of the Slavs.” In 860 they were part of a mission sent by the Byzantine emperor Michael III, called The Drunkard, to the Khazars, a Tatar people who tolerated all faiths and whose ruler practiced Judaism. In 862-863, preparatory to undertaking a mission to Greater Moravia (now Slovakia and the eastern region of the Czech Republic) in answer to a request from the Moravian ruler to Emperor Michael, Cyril created a Slavonic alphabet. Another mistake by our historian.Quote:
.
Turkish has a roman alphabet too. :laugh:Quote:
And the Turks did not do what the Romans did, for there are no languages in the Balkans today which are Altaic or based on Turkish. Unlike the Romance languages in Western and Southern Europe.
The Romans didn't change the Balkan's languages either. The closest to that is Romanian but that is far from latin as well.
Khazars were by no means Tatar. They were Turks. The people most commonly reffered to as Tatars were Mongols, especially those in Russia. Khazars were pre Mongol, and not in any way Tatars. They were a Turkish people.
I've read these 2 pages and what i think is that a thread that began as a historical recall of what happened the day Constantinople fell to the Turks (29th May, 1453) has turned into a somewhat off the topic debate about what would have happened if and why did they do it and all that.
First and formost i have to say that i'm greek. This, because in a somewhat political argument ppl tend to be biassed, due to their nationality/religion/culture.
As far as the "on the topic" story, there is a great book by some french academic (univ. teacher) published in 1914 that has a lot of info about that last stand of the Byzantine world. I can't remember title etc. may be i'll search and post it. Anyway, the Byzantines had come to a point where the fall of the city was inevitable, turkish lands surrounded them and no one would really help. The Genoese and Venetians were short-sighted as they believed they would be better off with the turks in command, while that proved to be their downfall. The fall of Constantinople marked the end of the Medieval ages and the start of the "New ideas era" or whatever it is called in europe, as all these extremely knowledgable ppl left the city for italy mainly and from there their ideas spread to the rest of the continent.
As far as the rest of the topic:
Istanbull indeed derives from " εις την πόλιν " which is greek and means " in the city ". The name changed to that during the "turkalization" of turkey with other names changing, like that of Smyrna which became "Ismir".
The slavic alphabet was given to these ppl by Cyril and Methodios, two monks after orders of the Byz Emperor of the time (was it Basilios Boulgaroktonos?). It didn't "happen" in boulgarian schools, were did you find that? :dizzy2: After their death, these two monks were canonized (became saints) by the church. Thats why the today slavic alphabet used by former Yugoslavia, Boulgaria, Romania, Russia etc. is so similar to the greek alphabet.
Some national hero is a loyal vassal to his nations' enemies for some time? Well, that's not a new one, many if not all were like that: Vlad Dracul of Romania was a vassal of the Sultan (yes it's that guy from where you get the "Count Dracula" name, but the actuall blood drinking thing was a woman, actually a countess in Terpoviche(sp?) of romania in the 1500's), Bruce of Scotland was a vassal of the English king (i think, not too sure) and King Mithridates of Pontus was also a vassal of the Romans, although he ended in their most feared enemy, even more than Hannibal Barca.
Visiting Istanbull or turkey in general? Well, let me think, wasn't it in Istanbull that a bus full of greek tourists was set on fire and most of them (some 30 ppl) were burnt alive about two years ago? Wasn't it in Istanbull that a young woman was killed (in a gruessome way) by her father and brother, cos she lived with the man she loved without being married, some months ago? Ok, i'll visit, but let me take a fire insurance first! ~:cool:
Agia Sofia (Saint Sofia) church changed into a mosque, that's only natural. They could built their mosque, but it was cheaper the other way around. They did built 4 minareds (or what ever they are called) around it tho, prolly to prove they can do sth taller ~D .
To the Serbian poster: (sorry i can't remember your name) although i can understand your frastration about your nation being under the turkish rule for so much time (greece was also) there's nothing we can do about it, our ancestors took care of that. What we can do is strive to cover the lost ground. I think greece has done magor steps in catching up to the rest of the europe (industry-wise) and i hope serbia (and the other nations of former Yogoslavia) has recovered from the wounds of the civil war and is doing well also. Indeed, when one nation is occupied by another, it's usually because the victor is a more civilised one or at least better in some ways than the loosers. Thus, although these who lost their indepedence can actually gain something in the long term (as did the "barbaric" tribes from the romans) and the africans by the english/french etc. i don't see how any of the nations ruled by the turks gained anything. The greeks actually had 3500 years of history at that time (the knossos discs written in grammic A and B originate back to ~2000BC). Constantinople was the most (by far) civilised city in the world at that time. So, i don't see how any of the nations conquered by the turks gained absolutely anything from it, let alone being conquered is bad enough. I mean, if you ask me, "which nation do you NOT want to be conquered by), i'll certainly know the answer. ~;)
A last thing, if you feel attacked/flammed or whatever by anything i say here, you can report me. I'd be really happy as i certainly prefer it over to what your great-great grandfather would have done to mine. :embarassed: :help:
This topic is going dangerous. The followers of Megalo Idea is flocking one after another.
OMG ?!! Where am I ?! A bus full of Greeks burnt down !! But we are all sitting in comfort here and noone in Turkey and abroad reacted against that murder ! That's a genocide !Quote:
Visiting Istanbull or turkey in general? Well, let me think, wasn't it in Istanbull that a bus full of greek tourists was set on fire and most of them (some 30 ppl) were burnt alive about two years ago? Wasn't it in Istanbull that a young woman was killed (in a gruessome way) by her father and brother, cos she lived with the man she loved without being married, some months ago? Ok, i'll visit, but let me take a fire insurance first!
...
I am warning the whole forum community about this member spreading out his nightmares as if they ever happened in Turkey..The next news you are talking about: I did not particularly heard about its accuracy. Please inform me if anyone gets killed over there in Greece, so that I can blame your country of justice? (My god, what a hatred..)
You have an unbelievable manner that I can not see a reason to deal with. "What your grand-grand father did to mine" is a kid's concern.. Then I am rightful to burst out on any Armenians I see because of their grandfather's raping my holy grand-mothers, go out and kill some Greeks because of their invasion in 20's.
May God heal you, I wish..
The 2 forts, one built in Asian side and the other in the European side, prevented help arriving through the Black Sea. But the Genoese ships came from west(Mediterrenean).Quote:
Originally Posted by tibilicus
~:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by amazon77
The fanatical nationalism of some people never ceases to amaze me. Now someone begins to list crimes happening Turkey. Of course I am sure that no crimes ever happen in Greece.
By the way Lefteyenine, a bus full of greek tourists was indeed burned. But it did not happen 2 years ago. I think it was more than 10 years ago. It was the work of a single psychopath.
As for the civilization issue... Until 17th century Ottomans were more civilized than the western civilizations. After that their civilization degenerated rapidly.
It's not "Megalo Idea" but "Megali Idea". It means the Big Idea, which was an idiotic and militaristic idea the greek goverments of the 1920's had. It was about bringing back to life the former Byz Empire (sort of). Now, i don't exactly see how i am backing that one up! Anyway, there's no such thing in modern day greece.
If you're gonna quote, then at least do quote. I didn't say "did" but "would have done". It's a whole different, as i meant you should counter the (serbian guy i think it was) arguements with your own. "The report to the moderator" thing is kiddish imho. Anyway, why are you frustrated by it? I'm only saying i see you are advancing into a better way of solving debates ~:) .
What's with the armenian thing? Didn't quite understand that one. ~:confused:
Oh, and the greeks didn't invade turkey in the 20's, but a portion was given to them by their allies as they were in the winning side of ww1.
They did invade indeed.. And they were fleeing away burning down what's left behind because their "daddies" had lost confidence with them, cutting out the support to Greeks.. Italians were invaders as well but they did leave the country in a peaceful manner.
So you are involved in a forum of which system is structurized by "kiddish" ideas. I just reported. That's an act of reaction. I prefer more democratic ways to dismiss fanatic actions rather than acting like you.
Armenians ? Well, please keep away your fanatic thoughts on that topic.. Nevermind that example.. Count it un-said..
They were given a portion, as did italians and if i am correct french and english were also given sectors of control. Indeed a war broke out and the greeks lost that as they had overextended their lines (they reached the Sangarian river when the front collapsed?) in the Eski-Shehir battle or the Afion-Kara-Hissar? Yes their "daddies" did cut out supplies as they didn't want a new greek empire to take over the turkish one. Burning down the land is a strategic theme of an army in retreat as it wants to slow down the enemy. The russians did it to their country during the early phase of WW2 when they were on the retreat, it's called "the tactic of the burnt land". The goal is obvious, troops need food supplies, horses also.
You usually report some1 for spamming or flamming, aka: " u'r just a gay mod'a foker".
If some1 is of different opinion to you, it's a "custom" to reply with an arguement.
Btw, i did see your armenian post, now i understand why you mentioned them. They still exist?
Uhm, why i am being fanatical and a nationalist? What points in my 1st post (or laters) do you feel promote fanatism?
Why do you have to warn the members on these forums? You think they can't judge for themselves and form their own opinion?
I hardly made a list of crimes in turkey. Yes crimes happen in greece all the time. The other day a guy robbed a bank, can you imagine that? ~:)
But i guess i'm the fanatic thing+nationalist thing+megali idea thing and lot's of others and most importantly i don't quite think turkey is such an angel-like country (for no country is) and you should report me about that.
First of all, I think you may be confusing posters here. I and Lefteyenine are 2 different persons.Quote:
Originally Posted by amazon77
I called you a fanatical nationalist, because honestly I can't see any point other than that for you talking about 2 crimes in Turkey. You showed this reaction, just because someone said "...dont hesitate visiting Istanbul".
Am I the only one who sees the irony here? LeftEyeNine is accusing others of being nationalists and the like, saying that any Greek who has a different opinion than him is a follower of the "Megali Idea" (which I see as a classic case of the "lets flame everyone who disagrees with me" mentality), meanwhile he is the one who so far has refused to accept the Armenian Genocide (for the love of god, it doesn't even make you a bad person because the world wasn't as civilized at the time, nobody is going to judge you as an individual for it) and seems to want to convince us at every chance he gets that the Ottomans/Turks are the most civilized, loving people on earth...
Btw, LeftEyeNine... you said that you "prefer more democratic ways to dismiss fanatic actions rather than acting like you." If you ask me, you have been acting in the same manner ever since you started your Armenian Genocide post. Nobody reported you though, even though you refused to listen to anything that was a proof against your cause by claiming either incriminating letter was a fake, or that the Turks were somehow being murdered by the hundreds of thousands by an occupied people...
Wooops. I guess I'm about to get reported for speaking my mind too. ;)
Keep looking deep into your past and I'm sure you will find a reason to hate just about every ethnic or racial group. Surely hate isn't the path to a better world in the future. Yet it is apparent that some still cling to it. The sins of the father get inherited by the sons. That archaic notion shouldn't have a place in today's "civilized" world.
Words like "your" and "our" do not belong in discussions like those that should be taking place here in the Monastery. They personalize a discussion that should be about an issue, not an individual or group. As I always say, address the issue, not the person!
I'm closing this topic as it has turned from a remembrance of sorts to a series of accusations and insults both on and off topic. There is a lot here to review. Those exhibiting unacceptable behaviour in this thread should expect to receive appropriate disciplinary sanctions in the very near future.