America's irreplaceable ally

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America's irreplaceable ally
Caroline B. Glick (archive)

June 18, 2005 | printer friendly version Print | email to a friend Send

In an in-depth article entitled "How we would fight China" published in the June issue of The Atlantic Monthly, military correspondent Robert D. Kaplan analyzes the encroaching specter of a cold war between the US and China. He also sets out the strategies and tactics that the US military's Pacific Command is constructing to contend with the emerging reality.

In his words, "the center of gravity of American strategic concern is already the Pacific, not the Middle East." From the US military's perspective, "the current epoch of Middle Eastern conflict... will start to wind down during the second Bush administration."

Kaplan quotes a US Marine general in the Pacific Command who explains that the nascent US strategy for dealing with China will be based on multilateral military cooperation, or as he put it bluntly, it will be "military multilateralism on steroids." As its Atlantic alliances with NATO countries are breaking down in the face European rejection of America's decision to fight Islamic imperialism rather than appease it, the US is quietly building deep military alliances with countries such as Singapore, India, Australia, Japan and Thailand, which will all play key roles in containing China in the coming cold war in the Pacific.

Kaplan notes that one of the US's Achilles' heels in building this alliance structure is the technological gap between the US military and these crucial allies in the Pacific. As he writes, "Getting militarily so far ahead of everyone else in the world creates a particular kind of loneliness that not even the best diplomats can always alleviate, because diplomacy itself is worthless if it's not rooted in realistic assessments of comparative power."

Kaplan's report points to a strategic reality that US policymakers in Washington seem intent on ignoring. Israel's military sales and strategic military ties to linchpin states in the Pacific, like Singapore and India, have made it possible for these states today to center so prominently in American long-term strategic planning for its emerging cold war with China.

Israel was the first state to offer military assistance to Singapore, back in 1965 when that tiny island nation's entire military amounted to one battalion. For the next 10 years Israel was the only state assisting the Singaporeans, who one US military official interviewed by Kaplan referred to today as "just awesome in every way."

Israeli military officials involved in strategic cooperation with Singapore explain that the relationship has advanced to the point where most of the arms sales take the form of joint military ventures. Israel sells Singapore weapons systems that are tailor-made for its needs, and Singapore finances much of the research and development of these systems. Until it was outpaced by India, Singapore was the Israeli military industries' largest client. Sales range from hundreds of millions to billions of dollars per year.

While military cooperation with India has only become prominent in recent years, Israel was assisting India militarily as early as the 1960s, during its war with Pakistan. Today, between multi-billion dollar annual military sales and joint training exercises, Israel's strategic importance for the modernization of the Indian military is undeniable.

In cultivating its relationships with countries like Singapore and India, Israel's defense planners have followed a clear rationale that fuses commercial and strategic concerns. On the one hand, for Israel to maintain its military superiority over the Arabs, it must have a cutting-edge arms industry. For the industry to remain state-of-the-art, Israel must develop export markets to make its research, development and production costs manageable and sustainable. On the other hand, Israel has a strategic, long-term interest in developing ties with countries like India and Singapore, which share similar threats and concerns, because at the end of the day, these states form natural alliances with Israel.

Today, rather than thank Israel and India and Singapore for their forward thinking, whose importance to the US is unquestionable, the US is punishing them. This week it was reported that following Israel's misguided sale of Harpy aerial drones to China, Washington is now demanding control over its weapons exports to India and Singapore.

There can be no doubt that Israel's decision to sell advanced weapons systems to China was strategically blind. China does not only threaten US interests. Through its missile sales to Iran and Saudi Arabia, it also threatens Israel's national security interests. In the wake of US wrath over the Harpy deal, Israel has corrected its behavior and agreed not to sell weapons systems to China in the future.

It is more than possible that the US attempt to take away Israel's independence in developing its exports markets is simply an attempt to hitch a ride on the current crisis with China to advance the interests of US weapons manufacturers, who have trouble competing with their Israeli counterparts. Yet in so acting, not only is the US harming its relations with Israel and damaging Israel's reputation internationally, it is also insulting Singapore and India by acting as though there is something wrong with these US allies' acquisition of advanced weapons systems.

In comparing the ease of crafting a strategy for contending with China to the difficulty of formulating policy on the Middle East, Kaplan makes one of the most common American mistakes in characterizing the constraints on their actions in the Arab world. Kaplan writes, "Our actions in the Pacific will not be swayed by the equivalent of the Israel lobby; Protestant evangelicals will care less about the Pacific Rim than about the fate of the Holy Land."

Yet what Israel's cultivation of its own bilateral strategic ties with countries like Singapore and India shows is that when Israel is behaving in a strategically responsible way, it is also advancing America's strategic interests. This is the case because, at the end of the day, the two countries share the same enemies and therefore are drawn to the same potential allies.

That is, the foundation of the US-Israel alliance is not American altruism or domestic political pressure to save God's Chosen People from destruction. The rationale behind the US-Israel alliance is the fact that Israel is a strong, self-sufficient democracy whose strength and stability, both locally and globally, enhance US national security.

When, as happened this week, Palestinian Authority cabinet ministers insanely announce that Israel is trying to poison the Palestinians by selling them cancer-causing juices, there should be no place for doubt as to who America's ally is in the Middle East. Indeed, the levels of cultural anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism in Palestinian society and the Arab world should make it absolutely clear to Washington that a strong Israel is a national security necessity.

Yet, in the Americans' haste this week to humiliate Israel and emasculate its arms industry, even at the expense of its other allies, we see a disturbing indication that as the Bush administration slogs through its second term, it is intent on ignoring the strategic realities of the region and indeed of the global strategic environment, preferring instead to try to appease the Arabs and the Europeans at Israel's expense in the hopes of receiving their cooperation in the future.

This latest American move was not carried out in a vacuum. It comes against of backdrop of a disconcerting pattern of behavior by the administration that leads inexorably to the devastating conclusion that the US is moving to abandon its alliance with Israel. The publication of the federal indictment against former Pentagon analyst Larry Franklin this week is case in point.

From a perusal of the charges against Franklin, the following picture emerges: Franklin, a hawk on Iran's nuclear weapons program, sought to bring his views to the attention of decision-makers. In so doing, he did what countless Washington policy analysts do on a daily basis. He sought to build a coalition with like-minded thinkers outside the government.

According to the indictment, Franklin passed no significant classified information to AIPAC officials or to Naor Gillon at the Israeli embassy. He received no compensation for his relationships with them. All he did was talk about Iran with people who share his concerns in the hope that they could – through their official dealings with administration officials – advance his views.

Franklin's one crime, it would seem, was his unquestioning view of Israel as a strategic ally of the US at a time when powerful circles in Washington are trying to disengage from this alliance. Had he conducted identical conversations with British diplomats or pro-Japanese lobbyists, there is little doubt that he would still be sitting behind his desk at the Pentagon.

Franklin has pleaded innocent to all charges submitted against him. His trial is set to start on September 6. To a degree, what will really be on trial will be the question of whether the US does or does not view Israel as its ally.

And so the question necessarily arises: If the Bush administration is planning to abandon Israel, who does it think will replace it? Egypt, an economic basket-case run by a dictator who galvanizes popular support by cultivating societal hatred of America? Saudi Arabia, which is now pushing a policy with the International Atomic Energy Agency that will allow it to accumulate small quantities of uranium and plutonium which it could easily transfer to terrorist organizations for the purpose of attacking the US?

Israel was wrong to sell weapons systems to China. But the damage done to US national security interests has been effectively brought under control. The damage that the US's increasingly hostile position toward Israel is doing to US national security interests will not be so easily contained. The positive consequences for America of its alliance with a strong and secure Israel are enormous and unique. The negative consequences of an abandonment of Israel will be equally vast.

Why would Singapore or India or any other US ally trust an America that would abandon Israel? And how will the US be more secure if it increases its dependence on Arab regimes that are inherently hostile to it and everything it stands for?

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I doubt Bush will abandon Israel.

I doubt Bush will abandon Israel.
I agree , no matter how many spies are caught , how much US technology is stolen , how many secret WMD programs it has , how much weaponry it sells to countries that he considers a threat to America , how much money it costs tax payers to prop up the State he will never abandon Israel .

The rationale behind the US-Israel alliance is the fact that Israel is a strong, self-sufficient democracy whose strength and stability, both locally and globally, enhance US national security. ~D ~D ~D
Is Caroline on drugs or something ? It seems she must be because she writes
Egypt, an economic basket-case run by a dictator who galvanizes popular support by cultivating societal hatred of America? Saudi Arabia, which is now pushing a policy with the International Atomic Energy Agency that will allow it to accumulate small quantities of uranium and plutonium which it could easily transfer to terrorist organizations for the purpose of attacking the US?
But they are your allies and you help prop up their rulers . ~;)

"“Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”"

Ariel Sharon

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Originally Posted by Beirut

"“Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”"

Ariel Sharon

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I also used that quote here, but I had to take it back because there is no evidence that he really said that.

America is Israel's friend, but I am not so sure about the other way around. Use and abuse.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

America is Israel's friend.

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America is Israel's bitch.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

America is Israel's bitch.

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That is what I said ~;) I don't understand america's dedication, Israel didn't mind sinking one of their ships or buldozering their citizens. The jewish lobby is either very strong in America or americans are fools, and I don't think americans are fools.

The Jewish lobby in the US is second only to the gun lobby. No other country on Earth can manipulate the US as well as Israel. Even Americans cannot manipulate America as well as Israel can.

One day, I swear...

"I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United Sates and Israel."

Hmm ... the "Jewish lobby" - an argument that is brought forward very often.

If there really is such a powerful "Jewish lobby" - does anybody know what it actually would be based on?
According to the CIA World Factbook Jewish and Muslim people each account for ca. 1% of the US population - so voting power does not seem to be the issue here.

Is it the "Jewish capital" and its economic power in the US?

I do not have any numbers here but it seems that Arab investors hold quite a significant share in the US economy - adding to that there is the dependency of the US economy on oil from muslim countries.

I would like to understand what exactly the often mentioned "Jewish lobby" is based on in the US - if there is one - I, quite frankly, do not really know ... it just sometimes seems to have a little bit of an "urban lengend" character.

America's irreplaceable ally:

Romania ~D

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

it just sometimes seems to have a little bit of an "urban lengend" character.

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That I have to agree with.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

The Jewish lobby in the US is second only to the gun lobby. No other country on Earth can manipulate the US as well as Israel. Even Americans cannot manipulate America as well as Israel can.

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Hmm, really? I thought it was the fundamentalist Christian zealots who were supposed to be running everything in the US, but now we're being run by the Jews.... Im so confused. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Hmm, really? I thought it was the fundamentalist Christian zealots who were supposed to be running everything in the US, but now we're being run by the Jews.... Im so confused. :dizzy2:

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fundamentalist christian zealots support the state of israel.....

am i wrong or doesn´t it say somewere in the bible that if at the end of the world the state of israel must be in existante or no one is getting into heaven?...i saw a documentary about this source of support some time ago....but can´t remembber the source.....it was stated that the christian right wing were big supporters of israel´s position in the states..

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Originally Posted by Ronin

fundamentalist christian zealots support the state of israel.....

am i wrong or doesn´t it say somewere in the bible that if at the end of the world the state of israel isn´t in existante no one is getting into heaven?...i saw a documentary about this source of support some time ago....but can´t remembber the source.....it was stated that the christian right wing were big supporters of israel´s position in the states..

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When the country of Israel is established the messias will come and he will convert all jews to christianity, no kidding ~D

it is a reborn christian thing.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

When the country of Israel is established the messias will come and he will convert all jews to christianity, no kidding ~D

it is a reborn christian thing.

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uhmm......born again christian´s.....


i´m somewhat familiar with the fenomenon.....that´s like.....extra strenght crazy right? ~D

Ok, I think I get it now... the fundamentalist Christians who run the US are in cahoots with the Jews and are their "bitch" because they believe that state of Israel is necessary for their salvation.

It's all so perfect, yet so insiduous.... :book:

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Originally Posted by Ronin

uhmm......born again christian´s.....


i´m somewhat familiar with the fenomenon.....that´s like.....extra strenght crazy right? ~D

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Born again christian is a strange thing, they want to get back inside but reject oral sex! Head first gentlemen, it takes a lot of effort to be reborn.

Christian interpretations of the bible do indeed state that the conversion of the Jews to Christianity will mark the onset of the last days and final judgement. In the Middle Ages, popes protected Jews, and one of the reasons was that they believed that if there were no Jews around, the prophesies of the last days could not be achieved. This belief continued in an unbroken line into modern times. It was still around when Cromwell decided to let some Jews back into England, and it is still around in many evangelical denominations today.

Is the whole Jewish cabbal thing exaggerated by Arab media? Surely. But Jews and Israel do have power in America disproportionate to their population. For one, the Jews in America tend to be far wealthier than their Arab counterparts, even when the odd oil-rich sheik is included, and far more prominent in the civil service and public interest organizations. Second, powerful Jewish lobby groups like Bnai Brith combine with disproportionate Jewish representation in the Film, television, newspaper and other forms of media:

http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/jewishlobby.shtml

So no, there is no single, all-powerful 'Jewish lobby,' but Jews do have a degree of influence on American media far out of proportion to their population. Combine this with the religious views of the evangelicals and the US military's strategic alliance with Israel, and you have a nation of Israel that has much more power over the USA than one would expect.

China can't attack America. It's entire economy relies on exports to the US and the rest of the world, and none of its 'allies' are going to help it if the US attacks are they?

Plus the country would fall apart if the leadership was distracted with a war. The distant parts would rebel and it'd just become a messy civil war again.

Who cares about the so-called Jewish lobby. You'd think they all had a group mind and acted as one by the way it's described.

they act as one because it's all being directed by a massive conspiracy.

It's all outlined in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

Or Jews are actually bees in disguise.

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"“Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.”"

Ariel Sharon

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Could you give the time and place where he said that and to whom he said it?

This is all I could find on it.

"The quote is attributed to Kol Israel radio. Attributed by the Independent Palestinian Information Network and it seems to come from a press release from the pro-Hamas group, the IAP (Islamic Association for Palestine).

In a May 10, 2002 column ("Now Isn't the Time for Bush League Moves"), nationally-syndicated columnist Georgie Anne Geyer included these allegations against Prime Minister Sharon and Israel's supporters in America.

Finally, Geyer's syndicate disseminated the following Editor's Note which appeared on June 14 in the Chicago Tribune and Sarasota Herald Tribune and will likely be published by other papers that ran Geyer's May 10 column."

Editor's note: Georgie Anne Geyer's May 10 column included a quote from Ariel Sharon, 'I control America.' This quote was widely reported in the Palestinian press but cannot be confirmed in independent sources. Geyer and Universal Press Syndicate regret not having attributed the quote more specifically.

"Extensive Nexis and Internet searches have found that no mainstream news organization reported as true the fabricated quotation.

Kol Yisrael confirmed that no such broadcast occurred."

This is somewhat paraphrased.

MWHAHAHAH

You'd better watch out Bireit the Vaste jewish conspiracy is now out to get you!!!

Next we may even babtise your children!!

Better get together another progrom soon or who knows what we devil worshipers will get up to!

Figures.. Check your sources before posting palestinian propaganda please!

Hmmm, I could have been mistaken. :embarassed: Seems he might have said "We control America" as opposed to "We the Jewish people control America."

I regret my possible error and say that I feel much better about him now. I feel like giving him a big hug to celebrate his humanitarianism. Really-really. :love:

Mind you, given Sharon's history of directly participating in the killing of women and children, I have to admit to not feeling that bad about painting an ever so slightly skewed portrait of him.

There's no suggestion, from any independent verification, that he said any such thing: that Israel controls America or that he personally controls America. Beirut, one of these days you're going to have to learn that while hyperbole can be a useful tool in particular situations, employing it into your coherent view makes your coherent view unpalatable and you lose fence sitters who might have agreed with you.

As far as America being Israel's bitch, well, yes, it is certainly a one-sided love affair. But what do they really have to offer? It would be nice if they didn't steal US state secrets we decided not to share with them, but as there's very few of our allies, Israel included, that we do not spy on, it would be a bit hypocritical to cry foul too loud.

What DOES anger me in these situations is when they attempt to dictate to us how to deal with American citizens caught collaborating. Johnathan Pollard committed multiple counts of treason. The fact that he did it to aid an ally and not an enemy is why he should be incarcerated for the rest of his natural life (as opposed to facing a firing squad). When Laura Bush went over there last month, and the ever so grateful Israeli's booed and protested her over Pollard, that DID make my blood boil. How we treat Pollard is none of their
F%#@&NG business :furious3: and it implies we have no right to sovereignty when they take their interest in Mr. Pollard to that level. Mrs. Bush should have promptly called her trip short and told Sharon "When you're ready to treat me like the first lady of the United States, I will consider returning". Shame on her and her husband for disrespecting the office by laying down and 'taking it with a smile'.

Also, as long as Israel continues to sell our weapons systems to China, they need to be placed under technology control. I don't think Singapore, Japan, South Korea or India are particularly pleased with this new development, or the United State's decision to turn a blind eye to it. Either Bush has decided that China is not a strategic threat, or Israel wields entirely too much power within this administration. There's no 3rd alternative on that one.

And this is from somebody who actually supports Israel as one of our closest allies. I just wish they'd start acting like it...

Mind you, given Sharon's history of directly participating in the killing of women and children, I have to admit to not feeling that bad about painting an ever so slightly skewed portrait of him.
That is an unproven allegation Beirut . :stop:
And it will remain unproven since the main witness (A Lebanese colonel who led the massacre oops security operation) who claimed to have evidence of Sharons complicity had the misfortune to walk into a bullet just before he was due at the war crimes tribunal .
Now , what were Ariels comments about that little assasination ? ~D ~D ~D

Edit , my mistake , it was a bomb not a bullet .

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Originally Posted by Beirut

The Jewish lobby in the US is second only to the gun lobby. No other country on Earth can manipulate the US as well as Israel. Even Americans cannot manipulate America as well as Israel can.

One day, I swear...

"I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United Sates and Israel."

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waow "the jew control the world" all over again ...............
oh america , the big bad israel is cotroling you
america be ware israel is going to eat you
tommorow you should accuse israel to blast your WTC
loby shmoby suddenly bush is zionist ah ?

you do realise the Jews are using MTV to destroy the Western World

caesar44, Beirut's a Canadian. ~;)

While I don't think there is any big conspiracy for Isreal to control the world, I do not think we ought to support a country that has commited so much state sanctioned murder and destruction. I'm not saying we should cut off all communication or anything, just stop selling them weapons and stuff.

Oh, and move them from our "friend" list to "neutral" list. That'll teach em. ~;)

"...with countries such as Singapore, India, Australia, Japan and Thailand, which will all play key roles in containing China in the coming cold war in the Pacific."

Well 3 of those countries are members of the British Commonwealth.

Singapore, India and Australia.

Nor has it been Israel propping up those countries and getting their economies more technologically advanced. Pakistan certainly didn't get a hand up from Israel and it has been exporting nuclear technology.

Singapore is its own business and technological powerhouse and that is definitly a fusion of all the cultures that make up Singapore and a strange cross of benign dictatorship / democracy that it is.

India is a massively poor nation yet it gleefully spends billions on nuclear weapons. Its high tech industry is massive and this has more to do with outsourcing of banks and IT companies then influx of weapons technology.

Australias arms industry peaked at the boomerang. I don't think its modernisation is too far behind the rest of the World barring travelling to work on Kangaroo back.

I think the 'facts' in this article ignore the larger picture. The friendship that the US has with these other countries is just like that it has with Israel, based on mutual benefit and trust. These are obviously enhanced with Commonwealth countries.

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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

caesar44, Beirut's a Canadian. ~;)

While I don't think there is any big conspiracy for Isreal to control the world, I do not think we ought to support a country that has commited so much state sanctioned murder and destruction. I'm not saying we should cut off all communication or anything, just stop selling them weapons and stuff.

Oh, and move them from our "friend" list to "neutral" list. That'll teach em. ~;)

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I assume you would include every Arab country in the world as well? There is not one of them who hasn't done far worse than Isreal.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Mind you, given Sharon's history of directly participating in the killing of women and children, I have to admit to not feeling that bad about painting an ever so slightly skewed portrait of him.
That is an unproven allegation Beirut . :stop:
And it will remain unproven since the main witness (A Lebanese colonel who led the massacre oops security operation) who claimed to have evidence of Sharons complicity had the misfortune to walk into a bullet just before he was due at the war crimes tribunal .

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We discussed this at great length in a previous thread. I'll see if I can find it.

Mind you, if we play Ol' Whatshisnames game and simply say that all my sources, up to and including the Jerusalem post and the major Israeli universities and their faculties, are all biased against Israel and the Jews and therefore irrelevant, then there's not much point in going over any of this again.

Come on now, Beiurt, no fair mixing arguments. Nerouin did in fact employ the tactics you're discussing here, but if I remember correctly, the only source you could ever produce for assessing that quote to Sharon was Fatah's newspaper, and sorry, I will call that a source of questionable objectivity. Yes, there were tons of quotes in the Jerusalem Post claiming Sharon was complicit with the slaughter in those camps up in Lebanon, and based on that, I find it hard to believe he didn't play some role, but that doesn't mean you automatically win every point you and Nerouin ever debated.

All news sources are biased... its like a boat you need some ballast on the right and on the left... so all you need is two politically different news sources stating the same information and wham you have a fact sandwich.

Multigrain Rye Liberal spread with all organic butter on a base of Enriched White Conservative Bread smeared with a good helping of special interest (TM) oil based magarine. With just the facts meat inbetween.

I agree that I may be mistaken for the quote I assigned to Sharon and I'll take my lumps for it. If I am wrong than I am wrong. What else can I say?

I did not say I won every argument with Ol' Whatshisname, I merely said that when the other side in a debate has nothing to say except "your sources are biased" no matter what the sources are, than a debate turns quickly into an elementary school argument with an intellectual depth of what kind of boots your mother wears.

If you will remember, Ol' Whathisname hit me with a question concerning something I wrote and for ten straight posts said nothing towards my responses "your sources are biased and therefore irrelevant". I think that gives me some small license to draw attention to that style of debating in order to avoid it again.

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Hmmm, I could have been mistaken. Seems he might have said "We control America" as opposed to "We the Jewish people control America."

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Could you give the time and place where he said that and to whom he said it?

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I agree that I may be mistaken for the quote I assigned to Sharon and I'll take my lumps for it. If I am wrong than I am wrong. What else can I say?

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Heh, posted at the same time as me.. :rolleyes2:

Oh, I don't disagree Beirut. The reason I dropped out of the whole debate was because I really disagreed with Nerouin's tactic. Hell, I was waiting for him to claim the Wall Street Journal was a pro-Palestinian biased source. ~:)

All I'm saying is that was a pretty explosive quote, and without proper documentation, you might want to save it. You've got better weapons in your arsenal.

Example: I cannot believe I'm the only Bush supporter who was shocked and disgusted by the shoddy treatment the First Lady received. And never an apology! It was clear to me that Sharon orchestrated the whole thing at the Wailing Wall to pander to his lunatic fringe, and it was unforgivable. What we do with Americans caught distributing state secrets, especially ones they have been specifically ordered not to share with the desired recipient, is our business. For Sharon to pull that crap, and then shake his head and say "What are you going to do..." Sorry, I haven't calmed down yet...

:furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3:

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Example: I cannot believe I'm the only Bush supporter who was shocked and disgusted by the shoddy treatment the First Lady received.

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You're not the only one. I know of this fellow who agrees with you, and boy is he nuts!

~;) Actually, I agree with you. Bush should have said something like, "If you don't want to get caught, don't do it! And if you want to keep gettin $3Bn a year, then you had best shut your ugly mouth and apologize no matter what the (*&% we do with him."

And Beirut, I expected better of you than to drag out the dead horse that is the "Jews control America" arguement. It's like they can't accept that millions of citizens of the greatest nation, and democracy, on earth have decided to support Israel, the only democracy in the middle east, of their own free will. So they claim we are being tricked, oblivious that anyone could disagree with them could actually have thought about it on their own and come to a conclusion as a rational human that they don't agree with. Nope, anyone that doesn't agree with them has been manipulated by that large, shadowy, evil conspiracy. Sheesh.

Crazed Rabbit

USoA , jews and israel :
1. in the cold war all the arab and islamic world was supporting the soviets (americas no 1 enemy) and israel (very small state in the middle of the islamic world) ah yes , was a base of operations for the americans
2. ten of thousands jews served in the US army from WW1 to this day while the arabs were serving under the mufti in hitler's army
3. most of the terror attacks on the US came from arabs and islamic people and there is a good cooperation between the CAI and the MOSAD against it
4. US is a democracy and israel is the only democracy from the the atlantic coast of africa to india !!! so whom the US should support ? the afganians ?
5. israeli-palestinian conflict - israel want's to stay in the "territories" and the palestinians want a state in it - whom the US supports? the palestinian demand !!!!!!
israel want's jerusalem to be it's capital and so the palestinians - whom the US supports ? the palestinian demand
israel want's to stay in the golan and syria want's it to - whom the US supports ? the syrian demand
6. the american intelligence got informations on the mass murder of jews in europe in 1942 to 1945 - not a singalbombing on the concentrations camps !!!

the US is the most hated state in the world (after israel) so if it's leaders decided to have some friends and israel is one of them don't let some arab propaganda to influence you , just see the american flags burning from mauritania to afganistan

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

And Beirut, I expected better of you than to drag out the dead horse that is the "Jews control America" arguement. .

Crazed Rabbit

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I expected better of the US. The horse is not dead by a long shot. It's not that the Jews control America, it's that America [...snip...] I'm sorry if that upsets you, but you should blame your government for doing it, not me for pointing it out.

What other country can sell US weapons technology to the highest bidder, tell the US to stuff their concerns in their collective national rectum, and then turn around and tell the US they better not be ten minutes late with this year's $3,000,000,000 handout?

:furious3: "Because last year's $3,000,000,000 was fifteen minutes late and we're still mighty pissed about it! Oh, and we'll need more F-15s and access to your most secret spy satellites again."

wow,

This is the first time I've seen beirut back down and make a post that isn't blantantly racist and offending....

Good job mate.

Well thank you.

We do appreciate your support. ~:cheers:

I wonder what would happen if the United States withdrew its support from Israel?

I wonder if those who are against Israel think about what exactly would happen in the Middle-East if the United States withdrew its support from Israel?

Think about it for a minute or two - which country insures that Israel will survive? And its not America even if that is what many who are against Israel think.

Do some of you honestly think Israel will go quietly into the night if the United States halts it support of Israel? It will continue to exist - surrounded and besieged by its enemies. The actions of Israel against the Palenstine people and other arab countries would become worse if the United States removed its support.

Sometimes one must think beyond a pure emotional level about an arguement and think about the whole picture.

Such accusations as this show nothing more then an hostility - and a failure to think beyond one's own postion on the issue.

It's not that the Jews control America, it's that America [...snip...]

That Beriut is nothing other then an emotional appeal arguement bording on being insulting to all Americans - not just the government. It seems that one could accuse you of being anti-american when you spout such emotional charged arguements.


I'm sorry if that upsets you, but you should blame your government for doing it, not me for pointing it out.

When stating the country of America - one can assume you are refering to not only the government but the people of the United States at the same time. If you want to direct your comment at the American Government then state so - when one just states the country one is also talking about the people who live inside that nation.


Edit: Since the moderators edited out Beriut's comments - it still does not change the fact that such comments are on the borderline of insulting and attacking not only the government - but the people as a whole. And I appreciate the moderators editing out such comments since they generally would lead to a "flame war".

Moderator Notice

Gentlemen, make your points with less "colour", if you please. PG ratings apply. Further colorful language, or allegations of racism, will result in official sanctions.

Thanks for your attention.

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I wonder what would happen if the United States withdrew its support from Israel?

I wonder if those who are against Israel think about what exactly would happen in the Middle-East if the United States withdrew its support from Israel?

Think about it for a minute or two - which country insures that Israel will survive? And its not America even if that is what many who are against Israel think.

Do some of you honestly think Israel will go quietly into the night if the United States halts it support of Israel? It will continue to exist - surrounded and besieged by its enemies. The actions of Israel against the Palenstine people and other arab countries would become worse if the United States removed its support.

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Hmm, so we have to defend Isreal no matter what, because otherwise they will go nuclear (quite literally, probably) and REALLY hand it out to those palestinians.

Lets reduce that argument to its basics. I have evicted my neighbour and I now live in his house. I have a gun pointed at his head because he is understandably a bit annoyed at this turn of events. You had better give me lots of money or I will shoot him.

Redleg, your analysis of what might happen may be correct but do you really think the USA should base its foreign policy on appeasing blackmailers? When Bin Laden does it to 4000 Americans its war on terror, when Isreal might do it to arabs its, quick, pony up the bunce?

I don't think this is how the white house is rationalising it.

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Redleg, your analysis of what might happen may be correct but do you really think the USA should base its foreign policy on appeasing blackmailers? When Bin Laden does it to 4000 Americans its war on terror, when Isreal might do it to arabs its, quick, pony up the bunce?

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You totally twisted what he said. Its not that Israel threatens the arabs but the other way around. It is the US that stops both sides from going to war. Only we stop Israel from doing what any other country in its position would do. That is defeat its enemys who would see it destroyed. Their not blackmailing us, were bribing them.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Hmm, so we have to defend Isreal no matter what, because otherwise they will go nuclear (quite literally, probably) and REALLY hand it out to those palestinians.

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That is not what I stated - one must think through the possiblities before deciding on a course of action. The United States can do a better job of applying pressure to Israel through the economic channels that we provide them - but to completely cut them off would have drastic effects on the Middle-East. Which is exactly what I stated - and is most likely the course that would be taken if the United States government cut off its aid to Israel. Not withstanding the internal political pressure in the United States to prevent any such action - not from just any "jewish' lobby group - but many others

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Lets reduce that argument to its basics. I have evicted my neighbour and I now live in his house. I have a gun pointed at his head because he is understandably a bit annoyed at this turn of events. You had better give me lots of money or I will shoot him.

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Try again that is not the basics of the arguement concerning Israel and the Palenstine issue. Its far more then that. It would actually take several paragraphs to boil the arguement down to a basic prinicple - and it would not even do that then - there are many factors and issues involved in the Israeli-Palenstine issue - and that is only one of the issues involved. How many Arab countries have advocated the destruction of Israel, both in the past and the present?

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Redleg, your analysis of what might happen may be correct but do you really think the USA should base its foreign policy on appeasing blackmailers? When Bin Laden does it to 4000 Americans its war on terror, when Isreal might do it to arabs its, quick, pony up the bunce?

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Explain how my statement states that we should appease backmailer's - ie I am assuming you mean Isreal.

Or are you talking about the money the United States gives Egypt every year, or are you talking about the little amount the government gives the Palenstine Authority every year. The pitance we give the Palenstine authority is appeasement also, since its based upon the Palenstine Authority attempting to halt the terror attacks of Palenstine people into Israel.

At least if your going to accuse the United States of something - get the facts straight. The United States provides money to Egypt to insure the peace between the two nations - that is appeasement or more correctly a bribe to both nations, Israel and Egypt. Its been done for over 20 years now - we don't see anyone protesting against that now do we.

One must look beyond the narrow scope of just Israel-Palenstine that some of you are looking at. What nation in the Middle-east is truely an ally of the United States? Is it Saudi Arabia - nope - that country has been playing both sides against the middle for decades. Is it Egypt - getting better but still not an ally. Jordan - another country that plays both sides against each other. And the list goes on. Israel is not the perfect country - nor is it our best ally. Nor if you go into my past arguements about Israel - will you find that I believe Israel is truely in the right. However I find the actions of the past have influenced Israel - ie three attacks by Arab nations to destroy the state of Israel and a continued terrorist campaign by the Palenstine terror groups since before 1970, led by the PLO and now other groups.

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I don't think this is how the white house is rationalising it.

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I am not the white house - I am an American who took issue with Beruit's attempt at insulting not the government of the United States - but all Americans with his comment which the moderators have now edited. Nor is it an attempt to rationalize anything - you can not rationalize irrational violence - especially when its advocated by both sides. There are Israeli citizens that call for the destruction of anything to do with the Palensitne Authority - just as there is a group of Palenstine people who will not be statified until the state of Israel is destoried.

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At least if your going to accuse the United States of something - get the facts straight.

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I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I wasn't even citing any facts. I'm observing that whereas this may be true:

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The actions of Israel against the Palenstine people and other arab countries would become worse if the United States removed its support.

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Its a dubious moral basis for supporting a regime. That's all

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Originally Posted by English assassin

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I wasn't even citing any facts. I'm observing that whereas this may be true:



Its a dubious moral basis for supporting a regime. That's all

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And in that you are incorrect - its not a moral bais for supporting a regime. It is a statement of preception of an individual based upon his understanding of what is happening over in that part of the world.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

The Jewish lobby in the US is second only to the gun lobby. No other country on Earth can manipulate the US as well as Israel. Even Americans cannot manipulate America as well as Israel can.

One day, I swear...

"I pledge allegiance to the flag, of the United Sates and Israel."

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*hands Beirut a beer, a calculator, a Speak-n-Spell with no batteries in it, and 50 pages of spread sheets containing random letters and numbers*

You're right Beirut. You've stumbled onto the edges of the Global Zionist Pentavorate for Badness and Meanness In General. Our operatives have obtained these documents, which we believe contain the secrets of the Jewish mind control machine. We have also managed to capture one of these machines, but haven't figured out how to use it yet. We figure you are just the man to get to the bottom of this for us. Let us know how you make out, and just call out whenever you need another beer.

*locks Beirut in a small, padded room with the above-mentioned items*

~D

If Beirut has ever seen MacGyver he'll have noo problem getting out of that padded room with all that equipment you just gave him! ~D

If memory serves, the Israelis are the ones who manufacture the uzi. We need those so we will always be friends with our Jewish neighbors.

Yes, there were tons of quotes in the Jerusalem Post claiming Sharon was complicit with the slaughter in those camps up in Lebanon,
Don , the original inquiry found that he was complicit through negligence , incompetance, inaction and failure in duty . But not complicit in the actual slaughter . The person who was assassinated claimed to have evidence that he was complicit in the actual massacre , but as he was killed before he testified and the evidence he claimed was in safe hands just in case such an event occured has never surfaced .
Though of course unless he did have real evidence to back up his claims I don't think his testimony would have stood up to much as he could hardly be described as a reliable witness .
It may be true , but it may be not , which is why I wrote "unproven" not "unfounded" .

I said complicit, not directly resonsible. I agree, I don't envision Sharon allowing the Israeli troops to assist in the refugee troops back in 82, but I'm also convinced he knew exactly what was coming next when he allowed the Christian militia groups to occupy them.

You can't throw a rabid dog into a nursery, lock the door, and say "Well, how did I know it was going to bite somebody?"

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Hmm, so we have to defend Isreal no matter what, because otherwise they will go nuclear (quite literally, probably) and REALLY hand it out to those palestinians.

Lets reduce that argument to its basics. I have evicted my neighbour and I now live in his house. I have a gun pointed at his head because he is understandably a bit annoyed at this turn of events. You had better give me lots of money or I will shoot him.

Redleg, your analysis of what might happen may be correct but do you really think the USA should base its foreign policy on appeasing blackmailers? When Bin Laden does it to 4000 Americans its war on terror, when Isreal might do it to arabs its, quick, pony up the bunce?

I don't think this is how the white house is rationalising it.

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oh please before attacking israel on its atomic bombing (what ? where ? how ? when ?) explain us why england have an atomic bomb .....
and yes before talking about the palestinians please get out of north ireland ................................................. my god what a self righteousness

Northern Ireland is not a good corrolary for many, many reasons, but in your case, primarily because a majority of the people that live there wish to remain subjects of the Crown.

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I assume you would include every Arab country in the world as well? There is not one of them who hasn't done far worse than Isreal.

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Yes. Fair is fair.

I love this place when Don C, Redleg, Xiahou are back to battle with and against Goofball, Beirut, Gawain, EA, and the rest of you din and tumult wreakers.

:happyg:

GUILTY!

It would seem I have offended more than one person with my choice of words and careless generalizations. I would like to apologize to those who feel slighted and I will try to chose my words more carefully in future posts.

I stand by the general intent of what I said - I fully believe that the American government acquiesces to Israeli demands far too easilly and with careless disregard for the consequences, but obviously I should have taken more care in saying it as to not paint my individual American friends as anything but the fine folks I know them to be.

Y'all may consider me spanked. :embarassed:

America's irreplaceable ally

Surely the title should be:

Israel's irreplaceable ally.

As I have already stated the British Commonwealth are at the top of the list of America's allies.

If America walks away from Israel, Israel will be the one in most danger not the USA. If anything USA would be better off as far as AQ type of terrorists. However doing it for that reason in itself is reprehensible.

Israel is completely replaceable.

What other country would refuse to be the US's best friend if told they'll receive three billion a year in outright grants, unlimited support at the UN, hundreds of top of the line US fighter jets, access to the highest levels of US intelligence and political power, the willingness to overlook nuclear weapons treaty violations, and told the US will wage war against their enemies?

Hell, North Korea, Syria and Iran would be flying the Stars and Stripes tomorrow if offered all that.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

Israel is completely replaceable.

What other country would refuse to be the US's best friend if told they'll receive three billion a year in outright grants, unlimited support at the UN, hundreds of top of the line US fighter jets, access to the highest levels of US intelligence and political power, the willingness to overlook nuclear weapons treaty violations, and told the US will wage war against their enemies?

Hell, North Korea, Syria and Iran would be flying the Stars and Stripes tomorrow if offered all that.

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Very few would refuse such an offer.

There is a world of difference between the kind of friends you buy and the kind you support. Bush made the mistake of mixing these two up when he went to war with Iraq. Allies like Turkey, Germany, France, Canada and others did not care to be bought. Others who were not really allies had no problem with it. Israel is an actual ally of the United States and is willing to back the US when it is not in their interest to do so. Getting hammered by SCUD missiles and doing nothing because the Americans asked them not to act, is an example. And the reason the Americans asked them is that the Arab 'allies' were fair weather friends and Bush Senior (the smart one) knew it.

What Arab country who pretends to an alliance with the west would back us when the chips are down?

syria iran north korea............
hmmmmmmmm
syria iran and north korea aha
yes yes syria iran and north korea yes now i have got it !!!!!!!!
syria iran and north korea yes that's it !


what about some common sense ha ?


"the main reason for human mistakes is in prejudice..." (rene dekart)

Well it has been done in the past... Noriaga, Saddam, Osama Bin Laden, they all got money and/or intelligence and all turned out to be really firm allies.

With North Korea, I think 3 billion dollars in rice and vegetables would be a good bribe.

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Originally Posted by caesar44

syria iran north korea............
hmmmmmmmm
syria iran and north korea aha
yes yes syria iran and north korea yes now i have got it !!!!!!!!
syria iran and north korea yes that's it !


what about some common sense ha ?


"the main reason for human mistakes is in prejudice..." (rene dekart)

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I thought I would provide you the common sense you asked for.

Here are all the capital letters and punctuation marks you forgot to use:

SINKHSINKSINKISINKWH
,,.,,,,.,,,...

Free of charge my friend. :bow:

thanck you !!!!!!! sorry
Thanck you !!!!!
chi sorry
Chi what a strong argument !!!!
~:handball:

I think this thread would greatly benefit if this Kindergarten behaviour that went over the last couple of posts stopped ... like now

Just a simple common sense argument on the realtionship between American and Israel:


Israel is pretty much the only democracy in the region.

While I cannot speak for my government, I can speak on the perspective of many Americans.

We want a free and independant Palestine living side by side with Israel.

Further, we want democracy in the middle east. Not theocracy or dictatorships that fake democracy.

Nobody has a problem with Islam. After all, the United States was one of the first countries in the world to allow and promote freedom of religion. Yes, ignorant citizens persecuted many of their fellow citizens for following different religions, but it was not the case with the government. But we do have a problem with someone that tells us or others what to believe in or die.

I believe there is a strong Jewish lobby in the US but exactly how much control it exerts over our foreign policy I'll leave to the others here to debate.

Looking beyond the ethnic factor supposedly at work in this political relationship let's examine some glaring geopolitical facts...

Israel is...

1) The only functioning and thriving democracy in the region.

2) The only nation in the region that does not possess a fanatical fundamentalist minded political party or movement (of weight and/or note) that desperately wants to chuck democracy and common sense out the window in favor of an 'our god knows best approach' to all matters foreign and domestic.

3) One of two nations in the region that can offer major port facilities and airbase access to the US military. The other being Turkey.

4) The only nation in the region that shares mutual interests and concerns with the only NATO nation in the region (Turkey).

2) The only nation in the region that does not possess a fanatical fundamentalist minded political party or movement (of weight and/or note) that desperately wants to chuck democracy and common sense out the window in favor of an 'our god knows best approach' to all matters foreign and domestic. ~D ~D ~D
Classic Spino , when did you take up comedy ?

3) One of two nations in the region that can offer major port facilities and airbase access to the US military. The other being Turkey.
There are many countries that can and do offer facilities in the region to the US and to other nations as well .

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Classic Spino , when did you take up comedy ?

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He hasnt but apparently you have.

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There are many countries that can and do offer facilities in the region to the US and to other nations as well .

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Name them.

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

I think this thread would greatly benefit if this Kindergarten behaviour that went over the last couple of posts stopped ... like now

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Well I was going to correct the grammar in your post but given the bold qualities used in the word "now", maybe I should just let it pass. :lipsrsealed2:

Anyhoo...

The US has military bases all over the area, as well as carriers and other assets that can be utilized. During the first Iraq war, Israel was, if anything, more of an impediment than an asset. The US had to constantly keep them under control and then divert resources to protect them. In the second Iraq war, I'm not sure what benefit Israel provided at all. Perhaps someone here could enlighten me.

Israel is utterly replaceable, and there is no question concerning who is in charge in this relationship and who benefits the most. The US pays and Israel plays.

With the billions and billions and billions (and billions and billions...) the US has handed over to Israel, the US could have built an aircraft carrier the size of Long Island and parked it right in the middle of the Persian Gulf. In the long run, that might have been a much better idea.

It is a complete farce that the UN allowed Israel to be created in the middle of an inherently hostile area and then for the past fifty years the US has had to foot the bill (in the many tens of billions of dollars) and the political fallout (including the hatred of everyone in the region) in order to finance and protect them.

The US shot itself in the foot (several times) by playing Israel's game. People talk about democracy, which is all fine and dandy, but what advantage, at least in the Machiavellian sense, does Israel's (apartheid) democracy hold for the US? If power is the be all end all of foreign relations, which it is, it would seem that it is clearly Israel who is benefiting more and it is the US who is paying the price for it. Odd. I just don't see the advantage for the US in this "relationship".

He hasnt but apparently you have.
yeah right Gawain , would you like to examine some of the 15 current parties in the Knesset or some of the independant MKs , or how about some of the nearly 100 parties who are currently without seats but have had them in the past . Some of them fit Spinos comment perfectly .

Name them.
Where would you like to start , East or West , there are 9 countries at the moment with US military facilities , plus 2 more on the northern periphery , then 4 four more to the west that are used for the middle east , then there are the 3 new deployments to the south soon to be followed by 6 more .

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Originally Posted by Beirut

...and then turn around and tell the US they better not be ten minutes late with this year's $3,000,000,000 handout?

:furious3: "Because last year's $3,000,000,000 was fifteen minutes late and we're still mighty pissed about it! Oh, and we'll need more F-15s and access to your most secret spy satellites again."

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You know, Egypt's been getting 3B USD from us for years too.

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Those who accept $3 billion in yearly benefactions will have to put up with an occasional lecture, and Condoleezza Rice put her heart into it, and ours.

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A great article by WFB Jr.

Good article , glad that this bit was included
A second, that the true opposition party had been ignored because Mubarak had outlawed it, and therefore Ms. Rice was not even talking to the relevant people
So many media commentators are ignoring that little thing .

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Where would you like to start , East or West , there are 9 countries at the moment with US military facilities , plus 2 more on the northern periphery , then 4 four more to the west that are used for the middle east , then there are the 3 new deployments to the south soon to be followed by 6 more .

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Again name them. Even Turkey wouldnt let us use their bases or are they our bases?

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

You know, Egypt's been getting 3B USD from us for years too.

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Yes, they have. You will notice that they frequently aid the US in one way or another as well.

What this proves is that Israel is not a special case at all. Promise the Egyptians a steady flow of billions (and billions and billions and...), several hundred F-15s, the highest of high tech intelligence and gadgetry, unlimited backing in the UN, unlimited access to the highest levels of power in the US, and a myriad of other forms of assistance and I assure you Joe Egyptian might just turn into GWB's best friend.

Sure, but then aren't we doing what you find most despicable in America's history? The ole 'help out of a piece of hhit' routine?

(I guess from your point of view you feel that way now.)

Next he will be trying to tell us that Egypt is a better ally of the US than Israel LOL.