Israeli soldier found guilty of manslaughter

Credit where is is due, maybe some justice will be done:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4625355.stm

With one young man dead and another (presumably) looking at a long sentence, this is no time to celebrate. Nevertheless I admit I thought the Isrealis would fudge this and (subject to the sentence) they deserve credit for not doing so.

The outstanding question still has to be, was the sniper really the only person to blame here? Or has he been hung out to dry to hide those higher up who create the sort of climate where this happens.

Imagine being told you can't shoot anyone you want.

The nerve! :beadyeyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beirut

Imagine being told you can't shoot anyone you want.

The nerve! :beadyeyes:

---

Oi ! ~;)

Isn't this the case where it was in dispute as to whether the man who got shot was escorting children or shooting at Israelis? Perhaps he was fed to the lions.

Crazed Rabbit

Blah blah blah... poor Palestinians.. blah blah blah... evil Jews.. :wall:

Isn't this the case where it was in dispute as to whether the man who got shot was escorting children or shooting at Israelis?
Yep thats the one , they were insisting that he was a gunman wearing camouflage clothing attacking Israeli soldiers , and continued to insist that that was the case for many months , even after being in possession of all the TV footage and photographs that showed the incident .

Blah blah blah... poor Palestinians.. blah blah blah... evil Jews..

~D ~D ~D Yes Panzer , the shooting victim was British and the convicted soldier is not Jewish :book:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Blah blah blah... poor Palestinians.. blah blah blah... evil Jews.. :wall:

---

Are you implying with your eloquent statement that shooting Palestinians (and Britons and...) should be allowed and no complaints should be lodged if the shooter is Jewish?

What about Americans? If an Iraqi sniper drops a Yank, are you prepared to keep your words as eloquent when we paraphrase you and say "Blah blah blah... poor Americans.. blah blah blah... evil Muslims..." :wall:

Are you implying with your eloquent statement that shooting Palestinians (and Britons and...) should be allowed and no complaints should be lodged if the shooter is Jewish?

Well the defendant did complain during the trial that he was just being made a scapegoat , and that none of all this fuss would have occured if it was only a Palestinian that he had killed .

Ah yes, the useful Palestinians - the poster children for dispossable human beings.

Quote:

---

Are you implying with your eloquent statement that shooting Palestinians (and Britons and...) should be allowed and no complaints should be lodged if the shooter is Jewish?

---

Im simply summarizing how these threads usually go.

Someone posts something that sheds a negative light against Israel and the peanut gallery chimes in to reinforce the general consensus.

Well if it is the general consensus that an Israeli soldier did something wrong... then maybe an Israeli soldier did do something wrong and we peanuts may chime at our leisure.

Nes ce pas?

Well, every thread with the word "Israel" in it seems to go the same way.
The backroom could also be renamed to "Conservatives vs Liberals Arena"(with a few rather neutral people in between).

If the Palestinians should get their land back, shouldn´t we(Germany) get Prussia back as well? :dizzy2:
I think the evil polish people took it from us with the help of imperialist Russia and the US after WW2 and now they own our land, if they won´t give it back I see no other way than going to strap some explosives.....*blablablabla*
Yes, we started the war, but from what I know the Palestinians started the war on Israel as well. There have been so many occupations in history that I think the world shouldn´t focus on reversing them, but rather try to prevent any further occupations.

Just my 2 (Euro-)cents

Well, Beirut, get ready for a shock... as the man was found guilty buy a jury of his peers, I have to acknowledge he got what he had coming to him. There is such a thing as murder in a war zone, and it would appear this gent just discovered that.

By the way, Beirut, he might not be the desired floggee you wanted... he's actually an arab who had joined the IDF.

And actually, PJ, you might want to hold off on defending this particular guy. He took a headshot from an observation tower at a guy who was escorting a bunch of children. After the fact, he suborned perjury from his fellow soldiers and was convicted of this, as well as obstruction of justice, in addition to the manslaughter charge. Not real defensible...

By Don:

Quote:

---

And actually, PJ, you might want to hold off on defending this particular guy. He took a headshot from an observation tower at a guy who was escorting a bunch of children. After the fact, he suborned perjury from his fellow soldiers and was convicted of this, as well as obstruction of justice, in addition to the manslaughter charge. Not real defensible...

---

Oh im not. I was just reflecting in my own way on how these threads are often used for the anti- israelis to vent their rage toward the Jewish state.

By Husar

Quote:

---

If the Palestinians should get their land back, shouldn´t we(Germany) get Prussia back as well?

---

Yes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

By the way, Beirut, he might not be the desired floggee you wanted... he's actually an arab who had joined the IDF.

---

I don't care if he's purple with polka dots and Arafat's second cousin - he shot an innocent man in the head and now he's going to do time for it.

Seems right to me.

I trust in the Israeli justice system. Despite the constant attacks Israel should have all respects for trying and succeed with a lot of what we expect from a democratic country with respect for human rights.

If the palestinians get any part of palestine, shouldn't the brits be thrown out of Ireland altogether? They've done much worse at times in their occupation of Ireland.

Crazed Rabbit

The brits have done relatively bad trying to occupy anywhere with a large native population(with the exception of India). Of course I think, any nation does pretty bad while trying to occupy a land with a large native population. I think the only country that ever did any good at it was the USSR, and this was due to the impending threat of genocide or nuclear holocaust if sed nation succeded.

Relatively bad compared to whom?

The British Empire held 1/4 of the Earth, I cannot think of anyone who did better at holding other countries. Not that colonialism is a good thing, but it is a very one-eyed arguement to say that they did relatively bad.

There is quite a few (British) Commonwealth countries.

Quote:

---

If the palestinians get any part of palestine, shouldn't the brits be thrown out of Ireland altogether? They've done much worse at times in their occupation of Ireland.

---

OT but I'll bite. As soon as a majority of the people living in Northern ireland wish to be part of the Republic and not part of the UK then I confidently predict that is what will happen. At the moment that is not the case but if the demographics go as they are it will be at some point in the future.

I'm sort of regretting saying Isreal deserved credit for this case, since (1) I found out last night that the longest sentence so far handed down in the 2 manslaughter convictions there have been in the IDF to date (contrast approximately 500 children killed) is 20 months and (2) it didn't stop the "Isreal is never wrong, you all hate jews" crowd anyway. (Did we REALLY get someone posting that its not possible to criticise Isreal without criticising "jews" in another thread? Scary, scary stuff.)

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2005...srlpa11148.htm

Don't bother clicking the links, no one is going to let facts change their mind...

Well well well, I am surprised. I saw his death on TV, there is no way they could have seen what they were shooting at, maybe there is some justice after all.

maybe there is some justice after all.
Yes its amazing , if you are a well off foriegn family with legal training that is willing to conduct your own investigation , present your evidence to the Isreali government , your own governmnet (and get them to apply pressure) and the worlds media , then you can in the end obtain some sort of justice .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Papewaio

Relatively bad compared to whom?

The British Empire held 1/4 of the Earth, I cannot think of anyone who did better at holding other countries. Not that colonialism is a good thing, but it is a very one-eyed arguement to say that they did relatively bad.

There is quite a few (British) Commonwealth countries.

---

Okay, I withdraw my original statement, but they didn't do a spectacular job either... of course holding 1/4th of the Earth is awefully hard. I mean, the Boer War, the relative genocide of the Aborigines, suppressing uprisings in Burma and Malaysia with often times brutal means (like starving citizens until they gave into British demands) they did have their shining moments too, especially with Australia, Canada, and New Zealand, but this is largely because the populations within those countries were largely of British Origin (some natives albeit not a large factor). India is a toss up, they were both militarily and tactically superior to their Indian Counter Parts, and while there were certainly portions within the Indian populace that were loyal, many were not. I think the Roman Empire did the best with occupation personally, British maybe 2nd.

I live in a British Commonwealth Benefactor Nation, we have our own individual parliament and laws, but we are still militarily, and economically reliant on the UK, this actually makes us a part of the UK much like Wales or Scotland. The Caymans were given the choice by the UK to succeed in 1964 but many of the natives and people living here decided (and with good reason) against it. So it's nothing personal, just an observation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Blah blah blah... poor Palestinians.. blah blah blah... evil Jews.. :wall:

---

By the way , the soldier is not a jew , he is an Arab who volunteered to the IDF.... what an irony

Woah, your prejudice is showing again PJ.

That was quite the flippant comment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caesar44

By the way , the soldier is not a jew , he is an Arab who volunteered to the IDF.... what an irony

---

I beleive this was covered half a thread ago...

Hint: Post #16

[QUOTE=PanzerJager]



Oh im not. I was just reflecting in my own way on how these threads are often used for the anti- israelis to vent their rage toward the Jewish state.



Agreed !!!
So much truth in so few words !
:book:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dgb

I beleive this was covered half a thread ago...

Hint: Post #16

---

so what ? you should tell the truth as long as you can , and again , ha was an Arab (just a fact nothing more , all natinons have murderes ot their own)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Im simply summarizing how these threads usually go.

---

No, this is how the threads usually go: Someone has a topic he wants to talk about, Panzer makes a comment and the rest of the time the discussion is about Panzer's quote. That is annoying :no:

so what ? you should tell the truth as long as you can
Thats really funny , as in this case the accused , his government and his employers were repeating the lies for as long as they could .

Hint: Post #16
Its even earlier than that dbg , try post #7 or try the link on post #1 . ~;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tribesman

so what ? you should tell the truth as long as you can
Thats really funny , as in this case the accused , his government and his employers were repeating the lies for as long as they could .

Hint: Post #16
Its even earlier than that dbg , try post #7 or try the link on post #1 . ~;)

---

You are really think of yourself as a judge , ah ?
What is your point ? Ok , the Jews are murders , murders are the Jews are murders are the Jews... get some life , my god :wall:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caesar44

You are really think of yourself as a judge , ah ?
What is your point ? Ok , the Jews are murders , murders are the Jews are murders are the Jews... get some life , my god :wall:

---

I'll gladly take a life if you don't take it, and taking lifes seems to be Israel's specialty. Israel gets what it deserves if you ask me, it needs to either withdraw from stolen ground or go down just like it's older brother nazi germany. I have no sympathy at all for the murdering bunch that is Israel, no polite way to say it.

thats BS man. Thats like calling all Buddhist Monks evil Stalinists that need to be killed. I would prefer it if people would show a little more restraint than what we currently do... but maybe thats my Fascist Neo Liberal Stalinist Dogmatist side speaking.

Quote:

---

thats BS man. Thats like calling all Buddhist Monks evil Stalinists that need to be killed. I would prefer it if people would show a little more restraint than what we currently do... but maybe thats my Fascist Neo Liberal Stalinist Dogmatist side speaking.

---

Here here. I dont think theres a greater insult on the face of this planet than to call a Jew a Nazi. Im truly sick of it. Again if every nation who "stole land" is fair game a lot of us are in for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

I'll gladly take a life if you don't take it, and taking lifes seems to be Israel's specialty. Israel gets what it deserves if you ask me, it needs to either withdraw from stolen ground or go down just like it's older brother nazi germany. I have no sympathy at all for the murdering bunch that is Israel, no polite way to say it.

---

Let me understand this - Israeli citizens deserve to be blown up when having their diner at a restaurant? Israeli children deserve to be blown up when on their way to school?
Israelis are all a murdering bunch?

I strongly suggest that you rethink what you are saying here as this statement not only is extremely offensive but also crossing the lines that are set by the forum rules.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Here here. I dont think theres a greater insult on the face of this planet than to call a Jew a Nazi. Im truly sick of it. Again if every nation who "stole land" is fair game a lot of us are in for it.

---

So nazi is a great multifunctional word for just about everyone except the jews, if a country has a racist policy it is a valid comparison, it has been used a lot more liberally, especially by Israel. Israel is a state based on ethnic cleansing, at least the nazi's had the decency to actually finish their enemies of after taking their property. It is a big wrong that will never be right, no special treatment or instant excuses just for being jewish, that wouldn't be fair.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

Let me understand this - Israeli citizens deserve to be blown up when having their diner at a restaurant? Israeli children deserve to be blown up when on their way to school?
Israelis are all a murdering bunch?

I strongly suggest that you rethink what you are saying here as this statement not only is extremely offensive but also crossing the lines that are set by the forum rules.

---

If the bomb goes of in occupied territory, I have no problems with it. Only the children are innocent, and these children wouldn't have died if their parents hadn't brought them there. Three times as many palestinians die a year, what are those, expendable?

Quote:

---

Israel is a state based on ethnic cleansing,

---

How do you explain the one million arab citizens of that country then? Yet the leaders os people you defend actually came from the Nazi movement and if anyone is guilty of wanting ethnic cleansing it is Hamas and the other terrorist orginizations whos stated purpose is the destruction of Israel.

Quote:

---

So nazi is a great multifunctional word for just about everyone except the jews

---

If you cant see why the Jews would be more sensitive to this remark then I suggest you lack any sensitivty at all.

Quote:

---

If the bomb goes of in occupied territory, I have no problems with it. Only the children are innocent, and these children wouldn't have died if their parents hadn't brought them there. Three times as many palestinians die a year, what are those, expendable?

---

How is it that of all the coutries or peoples(neither of which really applies to them) whose land was "stolen" only these peole have resorted to blowing up their own children? More Palestinias die because the Israelis are more organised and have an army. The chinese lost many more men in Korea than we did. I guess that makes them the good guys.


Maybe you should look here.

LINK http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/hizbollahsalute.jpg

How do you explain the one million arab citizens of that country then? Yet the leaders os people you defend actually came from the Nazi movement and if anyone is guilty of wanting ethnic cleansing it is Hamas and the other terrorist orginizations whos stated purpose is the destruction of Israel.

Who's defending? Hamas is just as bad. And these 1.000.000 arabs are second class citizens, save for a few. An arab even got a year in prison for pretending to be jewish, go figure. Maybe my sources are wrong, blaim chomsky.

If you cant see why the Jews would be more sensitive to this remark then I suggest you lack any sensitivty at all.

Perhaps, but 1000 schindlers list's doesn't make it a jewish affair, if they want to believe that fine, but the nazi's were against everything that wasn't uber and that included gypsies, polish, mental patients, disabled people, gays.

How is it that of all the coutries or peoples(neither of which really applies to them) whose land was "stolen" only these peole have resorted to blowing up their own children? More Palestinias die because the Israelis are more organised and have an army.

Well since the palestinians aren't allowed to carry firearms, and the Israeli's like to shoot mucho, the high palestinians deathrate is hardly a surprise.

Quote:

---

Who's defending? Hamas is just as bad. And these 1.000.000 arabs are second class citizens, save for a few. An arab even got a year in prison for pretending to be jewish, go figure. Maybe my sources are wrong, blaim chomsky.

---

How does that equate to ethnic cleansing. If the arabs have it so bad there why do they stay?

Quote:

---

Well since the palestinians aren't allowed to carry firearms, and the Israeli's like to shoot mucho, the high palestinians deathrate is hardly a surprise.

---

So now the the Palestinians dont carry guns. Another for my archive on the silliest things said on the internet.

How is it even whe the Israeli government does something right everyone starts bashing it?

How does that equate to ethnic cleansing. If the arabs have it so bad there why do they stay?

A hint of a life is still better then no life at all.

So now the the Palestinians dont carry guns. Another for my archive on the silliest things said on the internet.


aren't allowed to, bit of a difference. They smuggle it yes, I would do the same if the enemy had them and loves using them. And what does a AK-47 do against a rocket for 'riot control'? Or one of these nifty flashette things that are very much banned by geneva.

How is it even whe the Israeli government does something right everyone starts bashing it?


Because they lost all credibility.

Quote:

---

A hint of a life is still better then no life at all.

---

So Israel is the only place in the world they can life or are the evil Israelis holding them prisoner like their holding the Palestinians prisoner? Use some common sense. I believe Israeli arabs are better off than most arabs in the region or they would move to say Jordan.

Quote:

---

aren't allowed to, bit of a difference. They smuggle it yes, I would do the same if the enemy had them and loves using them. And what does a AK-47 do against a rocket for 'riot control'? Or one of these nifty flashette things that are very much banned by geneva.

---

Get real. Everytime theres a celebration they all run out with their AKs and start firing into the air. There is no lack of arms on the Palestinan side my friend.

Quote:

---

Because they lost all credibility.

---

I find what their doing credible in this matter. You dont?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

If the bomb goes of in occupied territory, I have no problems with it. Only the children are innocent, and these children wouldn't have died if their parents hadn't brought them there.

---

You can use that argumentation to justify almost any act of terrorism against innocent people.
"If their parents/government/ancestors hadn't done this, these innocents would not have to die"
Sorry - not acceptable at all in my eyes.

Quote:

---

Three times as many palestinians die a year, what are those, expendable?

---

Opposing the murdering of innocent people on one side does not equal considering the innocent people who die on the other side as expandable.
I don't see why condemning the killing of innocent people on both sides should not be possible. As long as either side considers the killing of innocents to be a justifiable option there will be no peace.

While I sympathize with the Palestinians, I do not think that the Isrealis "get what they deserve". No one deserves to die, it's simple as that. It would be more fair if the soldiers were the ones that were dying, but death is never fair, in my opinon.
And while I disagree with Isreal's reasons for them staying there, really every country is a "Nazi" when it comes to land stealing. America consits of all stolen land. And while I might sympathize with any Native group that wants more of their ancestoral land back, I would not agree if they start to kill people.

Quote:

---

You can use that argumentation to justify almost any act of terrorism against innocent people.
"If their parents/government/ancestors hadn't done this, these innocents would not have to die"
Sorry - not acceptable at all in my eyes.

---

Agreed. Innocents are innocents. There is no excuse for killing them, no matter how sugar coated it may sound. And that goes for all sides of all conflicts.

So Israel is the only place in the world they can life or are the evil Israelis holding them prisoner like their holding the Palestinians prisoner? Use some common sense. I believe Israeli arabs are better off than most arabs in the region or they would move to say Jordan.

That is why they stay, since Israel has cut of almost all water supplies from the palestinians and checkpoints are hardly a healthy enviroment for a bringing up a child I don't blaim them for picking the lesser of two evils, even if they are second rate citizens.

Get real. Everytime theres a celebration they all run out with their AKs and start firing into the air. There is no lack of arms on the Palestinan side my friend.

Again, I didn't say they don't have them, I say they aren't allowed to have them. And an AK is hardly a match for a tank, these things Israel likes to use a lot. You saw the actual movie of the brit getting shot? Random fire at a random person, who happened to be a brittish citizen. That is everyday reality for the palestinians.

I find what their doing credible in this matter. You dont?

I thought I did, until I read the post tribeman made in reaction on mine.

Quote:

---

America consits of all stolen land. And while I might sympathize with any Native group that wants more of their ancestoral land back, I would not agree if they start to kill people.

---

Its hard to find a place on earth that didnt belong to someone else first. Few nations or peoples have remained unchanged throught history if any.

Well yeah, that was sort of my point. ~;)

Gah, I better stop posting in threads about this. I don't really want to offend but I cannot keep my mouth shut either. Sorry about my tone in the posts above.

Quote:

---

Well yeah, that was sort of my point.

---

My point is that the "Palestinians " werent the first to own that land either so they are just as guity of "thievery "as the Israelis.

Well they had it for longer... it seems to me that the Isrealis got it because they had 2000 years ago, while the Palestinians (or more accuratly their ancestors) had been living in that area for hundreds of years a heck of a lot more recently.
I may be incorrect on the details of the land claims, however. But I never understood why it was Jerusaleum that the Isrealis got, and not at less inhabited area with that is a lot more peaceful.

Quote:

---

Well they had it for longer..

---

Yes the Jews did. In fact the Palestinians dont own it yet ~;)

Quote:

---

it seems to me that the Isrealis got it because they had 2000 years ago

---

No they got it because Britain and the UN gave it to them.

Quote:

---

while the Palestinians (or more accuratly their ancestors) had been living in that area for hundreds of years a heck of a lot more recently.

---

Well that maybe be true for some of them but not for the vast majority. They just like the Israelis migrated there in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The reason for a Palestinian state is the same as the Israelis. Britain and the UN tried to give it to them but they turned them down. They wanted all of Palestine and still many do.

What is your point ? Ok , the Jews are murders , murders are the Jews are murders are the Jews... get some life , my god
My dearest Caesar , if you cannot discuss words that I have used , must you really go on and on about words that I have not used ?
Or are you so emotionally involved in the subject that you are suffering mental block ?

Steppe But I never understood why it was Jerusaleum that the Isrealis got,
They didn't , neither the proposed Isreali or arab State got Jerusalem , it was an irresolvable problem 50 years ago as it remains today .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fragony

I'll gladly take a life if you don't take it, and taking lifes seems to be Israel's specialty. Israel gets what it deserves if you ask me, it needs to either withdraw from stolen ground or go down just like it's older brother nazi germany. I have no sympathy at all for the murdering bunch that is Israel, no polite way to say it.

---

Content deleted due to insults (Ser Clegane)

I hate to say I told you so but I told you so. I would feel the same way. Now your probably both in trouble.

Perhaps if they are both clever enough to do some quick editing, they might be able to avoid a cattle-prod assisted mod smackdown...

Just a little word to the wise there, boys...

Oh my! ~:eek:

(It must be the humidity.)

Gawain, I wasn't aware of that most of the Palestinians weren't decended from the many Arabs in the area. Just out of curosity, why did they move there? And what happened to the Arabs that were there? I admit, my Middle Eastern history is virtually none existant after the Middle Ages.

Quote:

---

Yes the Jews did. In fact the Palestinians dont own it yet ~;)

---

I meant Arabs controlled that area a lot more recently than the Jews did. I don't see how such ancient claims could be made on a land that other people live on. I can sort of see the argument that the British gave it to them, but didn't they only give it to them because of those ancient claims? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Isreali settlers never lived there before, right? Most of them were from Western countries, correct?

Quote:

---

I meant Arabs controlled that area a lot more recently than the Jews did

---

How can that be when the Israelis control it NOW?

If your staking claims on land based on 2000 years of history, wouldn't it be in good order to allow the Italians to have back all of it's land they had conquered as the Romans? I think the Israelis have as much claim to Israel as the Palestinians do. As the Great Earth Spirit would say "nobody really owns the land they just live on it" I even think most native Americans agree on that fact. But Calling the Israelis evil or Nazis is totally absurd, the Palestinians don't want Israel to exist, Hamas doesn't want peace, the PLO doesn't really want peace, they want the Israelis destroyed. But this isn't the large opinion of the Palestinians either, most want to be treated as equals. I hate it when people get their undies in a bind whenever extremists on both sides speak out. By and Large in both Israel and Palestine, the common people just want to get on with their lives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caesar44

Content deleted due to insults (Ser Clegane)

---

Aurevoir
:book: ~:handball: :juggle2: ~:wave: :balloon: :daisy: :jumping: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Just some friendly advice, arguing with the mods usually doesn't help.

Quote:

---

How can that be when the Israelis control it NOW?

---

Yes they control it now, but they only got it around 50 years ago, I believe. They kicked out people from their land, some of which I still believe are alive. At the very least they should give an equal amount of land or money that was taken.

Quote:

---

Yes they control it now, but they only got it around 50 years ago, I believe. They kicked out people from their land, some of which I still believe are alive. At the very least they should give an equal amount of land or money that was taken.

---

Where to start. Ive already passed up many of your misaconceptions ~D
So now its not who had it lst but for how long? Then again the Israelis win as Israel is the only indginous nation to ever rule over Palestine.They were there for thousands of years. Do you think that there were no jews in Palestine since the fall of Jerusalem? That goes to your question as to why Jeruslaem should go to the Jews. It has laways had a majority population of Jews for hundreds of years now. It is their and Christains holiest city. Also I know you would agree then that all the arab nations should pay the Jews for the land they took from them.

But they took the land from them a long time ago, no? While Isreal took the land in recent memory, as well as having the same government, correct? The Arab governments aren't the same as those that conquered Isreal.

Quote:

---

So now its not who had it lst but for how long?

---

No, who had it most recently, not for how long. If it was who had it first, then everyone would have to move.
And before you say that Isreal has the land now, they shouldn't. That's my point, they shouldn't have taken it in the first place. And now that they have, the Isreali people living their shouldn't be evicted, but the government should compensate the victims.

Quote:

---

Do you think that there were no jews in Palestine since the fall of Jerusalem? That goes to your question as to why Jeruslaem should go to the Jews. It has laways had a majority population of Jews for hundreds of years now. It is their and Christains holiest city.

---

I knew that they were Jews in Jeruseleum, but why did Isreal get it? I know there really isn't an answer, but I never understood it.

Quote:

---

Also I know you would agree then that all the arab nations should pay the Jews for the land they took from them.

---

If it was recent, yes. But if you're talking about the original Arab conquests, or that done hundreds of years ago, no, since it wasn't the same governments.

Quote:

---

But they took the land from them a long time ago, no? While Isreal took the land in recent memory,

---

So again then the land was taken from Israel long before that. The only thing that gives either of these countries the right to exist is the UN resolution and Israels ability to defend itself. Dont you think your reasoning is rather arbitrary?

Quote:

---

as well as having the same government, correct?

---

The Palestinians still dont in reality have a government nor a nation.

Quote:

---

And before you say that Isreal has the land now, they shouldn't.

---

OK . Why should the Palestinians have it?

Quote:

---

I knew that they were Jews in Jeruseleum, but why did Isreal get it? I know there really isn't an answer, but I never understood it.

---

They got it because they took it. ~;)

Quote:

---

If it was recent, yes.

---

You do realise that more Jews have been evicted from arab nations than there are Palestinian refugees do you not? Where did they all move? Ill give you one guess.

It has laways had a majority population of Jews for hundreds of years now.
Still trying to pass myths off as facts Gawain ~D ~D ~D

Ok I should have said since before the founding of Israel.

Quote:

---

Population of Jerusalem According to Residence and Property Ownership, Estimates in 1947[1]

— Old City New City Total Population Land Ownership (in dunams)
Jews 2,400 97,000 99,400 4,830

Muslims and Christians
33,600 31,500 65,100 11,191

Total 36,000 128,500 164,500 19,326 (3,305 of state land)

---

Ok I should have said since before the founding of Israel.
So after massive immigration they became a majority quite recently ~;)
A little different from being a majority for hundeds of years .
Though I do notice that you only have figures there for the old and new cities , can you supply some for the suburbs and sub-districts as well ? Or don't you like those figures ~;)
And I certainly wouldn't want you to post figures for the District of Jerulsalem woud I ~D ~D ~D

Though to be fair , you could have posted figures that showed they formed a majority in the Jewish Quarter for quite some time (hence the name) , or that they had formed a majority in the New City after the second wave of the(modern) aliyah . ~:cheers:

I am so sorry to bring up facts from a neutral source , but there it is -

Demographics of Jerusalem
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
This article discusses the demographics of Jerusalem.

Jerusalem's population at different times :
Year Jews Muslims Christians Total
1525 1000 3700 ? ?
1538 1150 6750 ? ?
1553 1634 11,750 ? ?
1562 1200 11,450 ? ?
1844 7120 5000 3390 15,510
1876 12,000 7560 5470 25,030
1896 28,110 8560 8750 45,420
1922 34,000 13,400 14,700 62,600
1931 51,200 19,900 19,300 90,500
1944 97,000 30,600 29,400 157,000
1948 100,000 40,000 25,000 165,000
1967 195,700 54,963 12,646 263,307
1980 292,300 ? ? 407,100
1985 327,700 ? ? 457,700
1987 340,000 121,000 14,000 475,000
1990 378,200 131,800 14,400 524,400
1995 482,000 164,300 16,300 662,600
1996 421,200 ? ? 602,100
2000 448,800 ? ? 657,500
2004 464,000 ? ? 692,000
External sources
PASSIA Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs (pro-Palestinian site)
Focus on Jerusalem Biblical Prophecy Ministry (Christian site)
British census (1922,1931), British estimate (1944) at Jewishpeople.net (pro-Israel site)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Jerusalem"


Now there is only several millions of Jews and about 1,000,000,000 muslims , so consider the proportion
:book:

So after massive immigration they became a majority quite recently :book:
Your figures (from a neutral source) back that up , they became a majority (within the city , but not in the suburbs or the district and sub-districts) in 1896 , that is generally accepted , (though some studies vary by +/- 5 years)

Though I am intrested in the discrepancies in your posted figures of 1562 and 1844 , what is the explanation (if any) for the massive drop of almost 2/3 in the Muslim population between those dates .

Quote:

---

what is the explanation (if any) for the massive drop of almost 2/3 in the Muslim population between those dates .

---

They didnt like having Jews as neighbors so they moved . ~D

I am just curious , as looking through the sources mentioned on the page , it seems the 1844 figure comes from the "christian" site .
The site describes itself as , a one man mission to spread the word worldwide that the second coming is at hand and to prove the infallibility of biblical prophecies .
So.... is it a reliable source ?

The main thing is - from ca. 1,000 bce until now , there where jews in Jerusalem

let us take the year 1525 ce - 1,000 Jews in Jerusalem of , let say , 2,000,000 Jews in the world (in 1525) , that is 0.05 % , now 3,700 muslims in Jerusalem (not Arabs and as you know , not palestinians because the term was invented in 1920') of , let say , 200,000,000 muslims in the world (I am keeping the proportions here) , that is 0.00185%

Now you can see why

Just informing - the word Jerusalem is mentioned in the Hebrew bible ABOUT 600 times , in the koran ?? ...................o zero , nada , o
Facts , facts ....

"Jerusalem , the focus of the love , the longing , the aspirations , and the hopes of the Jewish people" (David ben Gurion , he said that not me)
:book:

But should a group of people just be able to get a land because it is imporant to their religon? Is a really old book that great of a claim?
And yes, there was always a large Jewish population in Jersuseleum, I don't think anyone is arguing against that.
But is Isreal a country for just Jewish people? I thought that it claims it not a theocracy....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

But should a group of people just be able to get a land because it is imporant to their religon? Is a really old book that great of a claim?
And yes, there was always a large Jewish population in Jersuseleum, I don't think anyone is arguing against that.
But is Isreal a country for just Jewish people? I thought that it claims it not a theocracy....

---

Did you not heard about the term "national state" ?

Germany is for the Germans , or what ? China is for the chinese ? sure , there ars minorities every where

I really don't understand your post , where you want's the Jews to live ? in Syria ? Pakistan ? Germany ?

"theocracy" ? not more then the USoA...
Do you really think that my father , me , and my son are living in Israel because of a religion ? nope , my father was thrown from Iraq in 1950 just because he was a Jew , and in Germany , Poland , Russia , where do you think they want's us ? in "palestine" ... what an irony

I was thinking of Jews as in religion...

By the way , why "Jeruseleum" ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by caesar44

"Jerusalem , the focus of the love , the longing , the aspirations , and the hopes of the Jewish people" (David ben Gurion , he said that not me)
:book:

---

Thanks for the quote. I like reading quotes from Ben-Gurion.

Here's another;

In 1938, Ben Gurion made it clear of his support for the establishment of a Jewish state on parts of Palestine ONLY as an intermediary stage, he wrote:

"[I am] satisfied with part of the country, but on the basis of the assumption that after we build up a strong force following the establishment of the state--we will abolish the partition of the country and we will expand to the whole Land of Israel."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

But should a group of people just be able to get a land because it is imporant to their religon? Is a really old book that great of a claim?
And yes, there was always a large Jewish population in Jersuseleum, I don't think anyone is arguing against that.
But is Isreal a country for just Jewish people? I thought that it claims it not a theocracy....

---

Israel is NOT a country for just Jewish people. There's plenty of muslim citizens of Israel. You have it ass backwards, it's the Palestinians that don't tolerate Jews.

And it's the Palestinians that claim Jersusalem on religious grounds, the Al Aqsa mosque. 200 years after Mohammed died, Islam started claiming Jerusalem was where Mohammed ascended into heaven. I've said it before, and I'll say it again... it's only a matter of time before New York City, London, Paris and Berlin become muslim holy sites, which must be turned over to an Islamic authority.

In my opinion the sniper shot that man,and were found guilty of that in court of law.There is no if.He must have been under pressure but that doesnt give him an excuse.Now he must pay the consecuenses.
What ive read here this thing have escalated beyond the original question.
In my head,the conflict between Israel and Palestinian people is really a tragedy.Two people living in a same area and having same holy places in it.
I think there has been so much violence between these two peoples that it has shrouded their vision.
In here we have a saying:Wars dont end by Warring.When ever one from the other side is killed,there are plenty of people willing to avenge his or hers death.That way its never going to end.If neither side is not willing to compromise,they are just getting what they are themselves ordering.Peace is a fragile thing that we should all have uttermost respect for. :bow: