Brilliant military manuevers ?

Greetings fellow gamers,

I've recently began playing MTW having borrowed RTW from my brother and falling in love with the Total War series. Of course, in switching to MTW amongst the many differences that I've noticed is the necessity for using actual tactics in combat cause the AI does know how to fight. I've had to adapt flanking techniques, using inclines a lot more, sacrificing weak troops as bait, jumping out of woods, etc... with the greater challenge I find myself experimenting to learn more battle tactics which got me to thinking about some of the great general in history.

I've never really studied militarily the great warmongers of our past but what did make Alexander, Hannibal, Genghis, Attila, etc... great generals? What were their tactics and field thinking? I've heard of double enveloping and crescenting but what the heck are they and what other secrets do their histories hold?

Also, I know there are some serious warmongers on here as well... aside from just good field command like flanking, assigning the correct type of troop to face each enemy troop, can you guys share any particularly effective combat tactics? Or if you have an especially gruesome battle that you won only because of cunning and luck then please tell me what happened and what you had to do...

Not to knock Rome but I'm having to unlearn cut and paste combat and relearn much much more realistic battle strategies.

Here's one from Hannibal: In a defence use a concave battle line, not a convex one like some people here will tell you. If your battle line starts out concave it makes it much harder for knights to hit your line and then skim along it until they get to the edge. It also makes envelopement easier.

Read the unit guide in the MTW Guides forum, it has a LOT of good info.

It's easy to outsmart the AI. As long as you are not completely outclassed you can trick them into doing something dumb and get a 1/20 kill ratio.

I only have problems when I'm fighting up hill as I can't maneuver my forces easily to compensate for when the AI flanks me when I send units up the elevation. Or when something unexpected happens. Or a mixture of the 2.

This one time I was fighting against the spanish. I skirmished around 6 of the spanish king's jinettes to death, using archers with spearmen close behind to prevent them from charging and sending a few royal knights knights to chase them to the edge of the battlefield where they would finally engage in melee.

The king retreated to up a steep slope, so I regrouped my army and marched them over.. He only had 2 200 strong units of peasants, his own royal knights and some spanish javelin men. So I sent my archers over, with the spearmen behind, aligned with his peasants and the remainder of my knights to charge past the spearmen to occupy the king and engage the peasant's flank. He instantly charged down the hill, frightenning my archers who retreated through the ranks of spearmen, breaking their formation, just before the peasant's strong downhill charge crashed into them, pushing them back, causing them to further break formation and lose.. TO PEASANTS

I couldn't flank because the spanish king was in the way, so eventually my spearmen broke and fled and I withdrew..

Both generals had command lvl 8 and this was on expert mode, so the peasants may have actually been better than the spearmen or something.

Double enveloping: (I think its from Hannibal but i could be wrong)
You have your weakish troops in the center and Strong troops on the right and left flanks let the enemy break through your center and as they begin pursit collaps your flanks on them so that suddenly they are being attacked from behind. Pretty effective against AI usually works better with cavalry on the flanks so they can avoid getting into battle before you attack the enemy from behind

Any tactic that involves letting some of your men rout is very risky, of course. You'd probably want a tailor-made army in order to pull that one off, with Disciplined, Elite strong units on the flanks and non-elite units in the center. Also, it's rare that I see the AI charge your line head-on (unlike in RTW where the head-on charge is the AI's entire bag of tricks). If you have the right situation, however, and a general with good morale traits, you could pull it off.

One trick I like involves using 2 cav units to tear up 1 strong foot unit. I figured this out while playing the Viking era, where the AI would typically send Viking princes with 60 huscarles at your measley army of fyrdmen and peasants. If you have a couple horse units, though, you can use them in tandem to deal with a heavy foot unit. Take your first cav unit and order them to attack the huscarles. Just before they engage, when the huscarles are charging to counter-attack, pull away and march in the opposite direction. The huscarles should keep following your cav. This is when you take your OTHER cav unit from behind the huscarles and charge them in the rear. As soon as the huscarles start to melee with this cav unit, pull them away and repeat.

A lot depends on upgrades, valor, morale, etc, but you can get some decent results with this tactic. It allows you to use the cav charge bonus to full effect without having to get your cav caught in sticky prolonged melee situations where their effectiveness is reduced.

CountMRVHS

While not necessarily a military manuever proper intelligence and army composition can make or break a battle. I don't know about others, but I tend to get into the habbit of building similar armies just because I like keeping things all neat and official looking. But relying on a standard setup can hurt when you come to a situation where you lack the proper counter. Such as trying to face an army with several units of horse archers when all you have is infantry.

I had a disatrous example of this when my newly crowned Bohemian King attacked the Cumans in Moldavia. I had built a balanced army of 6 Bohemian Bowmen, 3 Feudal Sergeants, 4 Feudal Men-At-Arms, 2 Militia Sergeants, one Royal Knight. Facing me was a pretty wide assortment of troops, but among them were 5 or 6 Horse Archer/Heavy Steppe Cavalry units. I was able to win the melee with my forces, but I had no way of catching their horse archers and eventually my men began to get exhausted. This coupled with AI reinforcements and their troops rallying while I try to kill horse archers is what killed me.

I knew the battle was lost at some point, but refusing to accept it I sent my King in trying to rally troops and rout theirs once more. It was another dumb mistake and it cost me my King. In the end I lost over 800 troops and killed only 500-600(default unit size). Due to my defeat my other army couldn't proceed with the attack on Wallacha unless I wanted to be left undefended so I had to pull back. To make matters worse, his horrible brother inherited the throne, and I was standing on the brink of extinction(heir wise) for awhile.

So yes, proper intelligence and the ability to adapt to a changing battlefield rather then relying on a standard army setup are important things. But besides for that bit, my usual strategy relys on me pinning the large portion of the enemy troops with defensive ones while my others flank them. Pretty simple, though it varies depending apon the setting and foe.

You need to go read Frogbeasteggs guide to MTW (in the guides section)

Here's a classic Ghengis Khan, though it is rather common:
Send cavalry out first, and march infantry a safe distance behind them. Halt infantry out of arrow range. Send light cavalry to harass the flanks, and use heavy cavalry to pound the middle and break through. Send infantry and lights in to sweep up.

"Classic" Otto the Great:
This is how Otto the Great beat the Magyars at Lechfeld, outnumbered over 5:1, and yes, it works MTW. Works best countering cavalry armies with cavalry.
Send two units of cavalry on each flank, slightly ahead of your main line. Rally the rest to the left or right flank around your general, and leave only a token force in the center. As soon as the AI passes your flankers, whom you SHOULD have hidden in trees or moved far enough away, curl the flankers in and pound them. Divide your large force into 3 groups, 2 large and one small. Send the two large ones to hammer the opposing flanks, and send the small one down the center to mop up.

Hope that helps ~:)

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Originally Posted by Patron

I only have problems when I'm fighting up hill as I can't maneuver my forces easily to compensate for when the AI flanks me when I send units up the elevation. Or when something unexpected happens. Or a mixture of the 2.

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Patron in this scenario your adversary was using the lay of the land to his advantage. To counter you have to do the same. There are two types of general ideas to keep in mind. Both of these involves gaining elevation and being ready to take the hit.

1. If your opponent is occupying the higher elevation of a ridge line then take your forces up the ridge out of combat range until you are at the same elevation. Redress your lines and attack, this way you've negated or partially prevented the height advantage.

2. If he's occupying a mountain or large hill which prevents you from gaining any height whatsoever before you are forced to engage, your tactic should be a full frontal. He's in a superior position which gives great advantage to him and is somewhat demoralizing to you. Put your troops in depth, with armored up guys up front, hopefully to better absorb archers, don't run. Behind your arrow absorbtion should be spears if he's got cav. You can always have the arrow eaters fall back so that terrible charge is taken full force by the ones that should. Archers should be on either side or they'll end up shooting the guys in front. Be flexible and change the plan as necessary. I have made it through similar set ups using this but I lost a ton of men.

Unfortunately the second scenario is terrible considering any AI with half a brain will not abandon this position. Oops almost forgot. Read Sun Tzu The Art of War. That boy had a number of ideas on how to avoid this, and since the game was designed using The Art of War as a guide for basic tactics, it never hurts to know what your enemy knows.

To attack, use light cavalry, preferably Hobilars or Jinettes or much better, Mounted Sergeants..... Flanking or rear attacks are a great way to end swiftly a battle through victory, of course....

To defend, try to find a hilly spot where to place your troops... Use a Double line, with the spearmen and men-at-arms in front, and archers in the back... The battle at Agincourt has the best representation of the Double Line....

Thanks a lot guys for the tips...

MTW and the smarter AI forces me to be a better general and now I am aspiring to be a great general. I spent several hours yesterday Googling military text on tactics of Genghis Khan, Alexander, Hannibal Barca and also Pubilus Scipio aka Scipio Africanus who observed, learned from and later defeated Hannibal's armies. Also, I am going to take Sensei Warrior's advice and start reading and referencing to the Art of War.

I have to tell you how much I am enjoying MTW and having to really be a sneaky and cunning bastard on the battlefield, occasionally retreating, sacrificing troops and also facing adversaries at times who can and will beat me. Definitely looking forward to VI and trying out some of the Mods.

such a great game, eh?

Strongly recomend you get VI ASAP. You can continue to play Medieval campaign, but there are several serious bug fixes (king auto-dying, etc).

PLUS the pre-battle organization screen is worth the price alone.

Glad to see you enjoying the game!!

DE

What no-one here has said: Play some of the game's historical battles.

Also, try to tailor your army to your enemy and ALWAYS have a reserve.

The Turks are an excellent faction to play (in Late, mostly) if you fancy a combination of classic steppe tactics with modern warfare.

This would mean a sizeable contingent of horse archers to weaken and disorganize your enemy, complemented by a sizeable infantry core composed of Saracen inf, Ottoman inf and JHI (if you can get those) to move in once your HA have done the work of weakening and disorganizing the enemy formation. Completing your engine of destruction is heavy cav à la Armenian Heavy cav, which can go round the back and cause a complete rout amongst the surrounded enemy, which will result in the total slaughtering of your enemy.

Fine examples of these tactics would be the battles of Nicopolis and Varna, as well as the battle of the Maritsa River.



~Wiz

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Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior

2. If he's occupying a mountain or large hill which prevents you from gaining any height whatsoever before you are forced to engage, your tactic should be a full frontal. He's in a superior position which gives great advantage to him and is somewhat demoralizing to you. Put your troops in depth, with armored up guys up front, hopefully to better absorb archers, don't run. Behind your arrow absorbtion should be spears if he's got cav. You can always have the arrow eaters fall back so that terrible charge is taken full force by the ones that should. Archers should be on either side or they'll end up shooting the guys in front. Be flexible and change the plan as necessary. I have made it through similar set ups using this but I lost a ton of men.

Unfortunately the second scenario is terrible considering any AI with half a brain will not abandon this position. Oops almost forgot. Read Sun Tzu The Art of War. That boy had a number of ideas on how to avoid this, and since the game was designed using The Art of War as a guide for basic tactics, it never hurts to know what your enemy knows.

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Hmm. Sometimes the AI does leave such good position... It does not hurt to harrass with your horse archers before doing the frontal assault. If the enemy troops are impetious they might try to chase you off the hills and then bingo you will have local superiority, close in for the kill and eliminate them. Rinse and repeat or if out of time do the frontal but this time against less organized and less everything troops...

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Originally Posted by bretwalda

Hmm. Sometimes the AI does leave such good position... It does not hurt to harrass with your horse archers before doing the frontal assault. If the enemy troops are impetious they might try to chase you off the hills and then bingo you will have local superiority, close in for the kill and eliminate them. Rinse and repeat or if out of time do the frontal but this time against less organized and less everything troops...

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I've never had the opportunity to witness this personally :embarassed: . Oh well, good point bout the HAs though. I had forgotten about them, since I've been kinda stuck on the factions that don't have mounted missile troops.

Often in MTW, you find yourself facing a smaller in number, but higher in quality force. In my current English campaign, the French rebels or re-emerging French always seem to be made up of foot knights or mounted ones. Last knight, in Anjou, the French forces came up as about 300 to my 600. I start the game to find the French have 1 unit of knights, 3 units of foot knights and 1 unit of spears. My force is spears, hobilars, peasants, 1 unit of royal knights, archers and 1 unit of longbows (bribed Welsh from the beginning of the game) and some mercs - vikings, horse archers and alan merc cavalry.
My plan was to split the French apart, so I fought each unit 1 at a time. First a little unit of hobilars - 3 strong! - went over to the french and attacked a unit of foot knights - they routed and the foot knights chase off after them. My horse archers worry another unit, so they chase after them. This left the French strung out with the mounted knights in front. they approach my nice spear wall on a hill backed by all my archers and longbows - get cut down to 50% - then they get rode down by the alan cav. :charge: This kills the general. The remaining foot knights and spears set about my alans, then get overwhelmed by my vikings and spears. Everybody runs away, pursed by my hobilars and horse archers - result, loads of prisoners + ransom and i have lost hardly anybody - the only unit to suffer is the 3 strong hobilars and the alans.
Morale of the story? - when in doubt, spread your enemy out. ~:cheers:

Sensei Warrior: I don't agree with your assessment of an uphill battle where the enemy occupies an impregnable position. Often, you can weaken his position considerably by sending out a small party of skirmishing cav (1-2 units) to lure some units away.

This is not done by walking up as close as possible until the enemy reacts, and then running like hell back to your own formation; the enemy will simply stop giving chase and reassume his original position. One must slowly, carefully lure the enemy onwards once he gives chase, until your main army can close in. I have accomplished this quite some times, both with the Turks (Turcoman horse), the Byzantines (Byz cav) and the Egyptians (HA, Mamluk HA).

Take in mind that you cannot draw the entire enemy formation to you. This is only a part of the enemy's formation, but once the enemy stops falling for the bait (maximum times I've lured a part of the enemy army down is 3, IIRC) his original position should be considerably weakened, taking into account the fact that the units that usually give chase are either frontline inf or cav.



~Wiz

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Originally Posted by The Wizard

Sensei Warrior: I don't agree with your assessment of an uphill battle where the enemy occupies an impregnable position. Often, you can weaken his position considerably by sending out a small party of skirmishing cav (1-2 units) to lure some units away.
~Wiz

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Hmm, point taken. I just wrote what I know works. I have never tried that, but plan on it the next time I am in the same situation. I should have put the disclaimer that I am NOT a master of tactics. But thanks for the tip Wiz.

another good general to research would Flavius Belisarius. A general around 600s, probably the best of his time, except for Narses the eunuch, who is also worth a bit of looking up.

I don't really use advanced strategies during battles and I've never tried emulating real tactics used... I don't do the same thing over and over as I usually end up in many different situations with different units at my command.

I usually just march my army over to an elevation near the enemy and send troops over in an echelon formation

___
___
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___

echelon^

Or I just send one group of infantry over at a time. Usually spearmen so they can withstand a charge and occupy a lot of space accompanied by some cavalry to scare off enemy archers or try to exploit flanks or cavalry vulnerable troops.

I depend on cavalry a lot to take advantage of the enemy.

In fact my strategy usually revolves around neutralising enemy cavalry and archers so I have a huge advantage against the remaining helpless infantry, even if they are in a forest as after my infantry engage I can easily surround the melee with a space consuming unit of cavalry.

Sometimes I hold back the majority of my troops and send some defensive troops over to probe the enemy first as if I were attacking along a narrow ridge, usually when I feel I am outclassed by a certain unit and I want to flank that particular unit by dividing the battle field up into scatterred melees between units, though I don't do this often as I prefer my units to support each other quickly after the first proper hand to hand engagement.


Does this sound like any of the famous tactics used by Hannibal and Sun Tzu? am quite cavalry dependant and usually find myself cowerring in forests with infantry, too scared to take any suicidla risks.

oops.. echelon is supposed to be a staggerred column in a diagonal shape, not a V shape...

Like this.

https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y2...d2/echelon.jpg

Each time the next unit in the line engages, you charge a distorted line of enemy troops trying to do the same. You are in control so if the opponent tries to be smart you can simply stop or charge head on into both the exposed formation and the next un engaged enemy unit in line. I don't know whether this would happen in real life or not though..

Ahem...

You know you are from New York, New York when you refer to generals as warmongers.

That being said, for tactics, probably the best place to learn is online.

Azi

Of course the most important and helpful advice is "Keep it simple, stupid!" If you make a plan too complex then it hinges on too many things going your way and if one of them goes wrong you're sunk. Another fact to remember is that even the most well ordered battle line or shield wall goes wonky on contact. Rarely does everything go right. So, in my opinion, a brutal infantry charge followed by a flanking cavalry charge, well supported by archers is the way to go.

Thats where I start from, then I see what developes. I try to mix the conventional and the unconventional, as Master Sun says.

I like to send horse archers round the back and disorganise their ranks, preferably taking out their weaker elements -such as archers or other light horses- completely. Then hit them with a frontal infantry charge, while at the same time hitting their weaker units in the rear with the horse archers. In the majority of cases, their army will rout as soon as the charge hits home. One battle, I had 32 dead compared to their 613 using this tactic.

I don't really have the talent/coordination for grand tactical manouvers, so I mainly look to get level with the enemy then frontal assault. I try to flank locally, but generally I win with superior units.

Hmm, there are certainly some favorite tricks in the hat... If there is elevation I like to set up 1 to 4 horse archers (szekely, turcopoles or turcoman horse) on the top of the hills. Now the enemy rarely bothers with them so I can safely decimate the advancing enemy troops. If they send some archers to counter me, I charge downhill from two sides and whoooops the archers are gone.

Also if you chase horse archers they will outrun you but if you can approach from two or three sides you can surround and eliminate the enemy. Rinse and repeat...

Sometimes it is worth to leave the last one or two soldiers run away from the battle, because while they are leaving the field I am in numerical superiority (can't bring in fresh troops until they walked off - compared to the dead unit which can be instantly replaced) This is useful in bigger battles when there are multiple reinforcements.

However sometimes you aim at leaving noone to tell the story of the battle from the other side. if you can kill or capture every soldier that the enemy has in that province you can avoid siege, which is ofter worth really any extra casualties...

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Originally Posted by littlebktruck

I don't really have the talent/coordination for grand tactical manouvers, so I mainly look to get level with the enemy then frontal assault. I try to flank locally, but generally I win with superior units.

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Hmm. Then you might as well autocalc because you take away the fun ;)

Anyway: Use your advantages to the enemy's disadvantage. E.g. try to tire the armored troops with those of you that cannot easily tire. Shoot the enemy to get it attack you preferably uphill and then flank. Manouver the enemy out of position, tire and disorganize. If the enemy is heavy, armored and crack troops than it is slow.

On the other hand if you face only light troops then do the frontal assault. If it is only foot then use your cavalry, surround and always tire, add those moral penalties. I have never run out of time when I did not intentionaly wanted so don't worry about that you have plenty of time.

Azi, hehe...

I assume you are refering to that fact that New York is predominantly Liberal in its political leaning but that is not the reason I refered to generals as warmongers... I'm just very enthused about this game and some of the reading I've done of late dealing with some of the more brutal periods of human civilization...

War is extremely ugly and at times extremely necessary... if you're going to engage in it then do so with the skill of a surgeon or virtuoso...

Oh my, we have a pupil of Von Manstein on our hands! ~D

Myself, I am more a commander who lays out a foundation and uses that to whatever ends are needed. Like Lucius Lucinius Lucullus ~:cheers:



~Wiz

See, this is what I like about this community. Most other places, my crack about New York would have gotten me flamed. And I realized that at the time. However, I do appreciate your sense of humor DensterNY. And your's too Wizard. Someone else who realizes Von Manstein was a genius. Of course, he is about as useful as 'tits on a boar hog' (to quote something that seems appropriate, given where I am from) when studying tactics for our period. Strategy on the other hand...but that lies more with RTW.

Hummm...I must say DensterNY that because of your post (and to tide me over until RTR 6.0 arrives at the end of the month), I am going to start playing MTW. I could not play it until I purchased this computer (back on Thanksgiving), and I have been playing RTW then RTR ever since. However, I am done (for a least 17 days anyway) with idiotic AI. Time for a challenge. Heck, perhaps I will have something useful to contribute soon to this board.

Azi

DensterNY, if you please, check out the Monastery for a rather spirited flame...err discussion of various military geniuses. I am sure you can find someone or something useful there too.

Azi

Thanks Azi...

I just checked it out and found a good discussion on books that covered Medieval warfare and its development, war tactics and techniques, etc... as for the discussions I found them to be rather civil overall... considering the Internet and all.

Well since my birthday is slowly creeping up I just threw a few of those books on my Amazon wish list and hopefully one of my buddies will pick them up for me... :)

Later...

I just wanted to follow up on the progress I've made following Frogbeastegg's military tactics and also some of the great tips I've gotten from replys to my post.

Well, I've certainly begun to think of combat in much different terms and to use much more effective strategies than I've accustomed to with RTW. I'm able to beat superior numbers and higher quality troops using my newfound military orientation.

One tactic I'm very fond of it stretching out your infantry in ranks of two men deep which allows the maximum amount of men to engage when you contact enemy troops and also gives you flanking bonuses as you wrap around them. My army is organized very unconventionally and looks pretty ridiculous but its terribly effective and as a bonus it also spreads out my men pretty wide so archers aren't as effective against them.

Another tactic which I use now that some described as double enveloping is I use my horses as my center to draw in enemy troops since they love to target horses and archers in the initial contact. I stagger behind them some solid defensive troops and when they come in close I charge them forward, draw back my horses to my flanks and then close in with the infantry that marched adjacent to the horses first position. Squish! Rout! Victory!

I guess both of these strategies embrace some of Sun Tsu's thinking that war is deception. In both cases you present a weak position for the enemy but am in fact hiding traps.