Who was the greatest warlord in Sengoku Jidai Era Japan? My favourite is Uesugi Kenshin. In my mind he had many honourable qualities. :bow:
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Who was the greatest warlord in Sengoku Jidai Era Japan? My favourite is Uesugi Kenshin. In my mind he had many honourable qualities. :bow:
I would also say Kenshin. Not only was he honourable and followed strict Buddhist and Samurai codes, but he was also a wiley general. In my opinion he was a far better leader all-around than Oda Nobunaga, Ieaysu Tokugawa and Takeda Shingen, who are often declared his superior. IMO they were just rivals. If he had laid off the Sake Japan would have been very different, especially since he had shown that his Samurai led armies could defeat Oda Nobunaga's ashigaru/gun focused armies, even when heavily outnumbered.
My favourite is Takeda Shingen...
He did many brilliant things like that dam of the river.... He had many great battles, like the Kawanakajima set, which unfortunately he didn't win them, but resisted heroic in front of the massive armies of Uesugi Kenshin.... Or Mikata Ga Hara, awesome as well...Too bad Tokugawa didn't die....
Shingen lost one of the battles of Kwanakajima horrible against a smaller force commanded by Kenshin. IIRC it was the third or fourth, in it Kenshin split his force. One unit camped on a hill that Shingen was going to assault, and the other stealithly crept across a river. Kenshin then used his rolling wheel and charged Shingen at dawn. Though the Takeda accounts say that Shingen forced Kenshin to retreat there is no evidence to back this besides a biased and often incorrect Takeda account writen much later. To support Kenshin winning decisively he was campaigning in another region the next year, with a large experienced army.
But Shingen was generally a good guy as well, though I think he had some cruelty issues...
It was the 4th Kawanakajima-Uenohara, when Shingen split his forces. He commanded one part, while Yamamoto Kansuke and Takeda Nobushige commanded the other part...Unfortunately, he indeed lost the battle and Yamamoto and Takeda Nobushige were killed....
BTW, I know very much about the Azuchi-Momoyama period ~D
Never said you didn't. Thanks for clarifying which it was. Shingen was still a great commander despite that loss. I just think Kenshin was superior, though to each his own.
I've earlire been a Shingen fanboy, but lately I've noticed that Shimazu Yoshihisa was quite a good commander and won many almost big victories vs superior forces. So he would currently get my vote. :bow:
You should check otu SamuraiArchives.com They have a great database on Sengoku Jidai era warlords. While you're there you should check out Kenshin and Shingen. Both are very interesting and were great leaders, though Kenshin gets my vote...
BTW, it has a great forum where you can get tons of info and also they have some quality members like Anthony J. Bryant....Quote:
Originally Posted by Uesugi Kenshin
My favourite Japanese generals were Takeda Shingen and Oda Nobunaga. Both very cool and both had some cool battles but I think Shingen was the best.
For me the greatest warlord was Oda Nobunaga ...
What is it you like about Oda Nobunaga?
I have never been able to understand his appeal, I can understand why people like Shingen, but Nobunaga baffles me.
Neither have I, sincerely.....
Nobunaga used peasants and riflemen!!! Was that honour?! NO!!!!
He wasn't religious at all, as all the noble leaders.... He changed to Christianity just to get rifles!!!
Shingen and Kenshin were really noble leaders......
Please do not look to history like CA history funs ....
He managed to get what he wanted by the use of every trick he needed to fulfill his scopes , honour is not required to win , also he incarnates lots of the machiavellic prince ....
But he was a cruel heartless ruler who slaughtered the noble Sohei of Mt. Heie! (May not have the spelling of the Mt. name right...)
Kenshin managed to utterly destroy a much larger army through tactics and strategy! Nobunaga achieved what he wanted by backstabbing and cruelty.
Nobunaga lacked strategic and tactical brilliance whereas Shingen and Kenshin were great generals who were able to spoil much larger and more powerful forces through superior generalship.
IMHO Kenshin stands out as the superior leader to Shingen in part because he was the only Daimyo to defeat a peasant/gun based army with a samurai based army, and he slaughtered Nobunaga's army, through a trick.
Kenshin left part of his army out front to recieve Nobunaga's charge and then was able to bring up his reserves and rout Nobunaga's army, this is a trick. Just because Kenshin and Shingen did not backstab their allies and refused to take up Chrisitianity and guns for convenience's sake does not mean they were not wiley. Kenshin repeatedly used tricks to defeat his enemies, such as at the 4th Battle of Kwanakajima where he split his army and snuck up on Shingen's army to ambush him.
IMO Nobunaga represents what a ruler should not be, and by the way he did not get what he wanted. Because of the way he treated one of his underlings the man rebelled against him and caused his death.
I'm not!!!!!
Samurai were following Bushido - Code of Honour....
Did Nobunaga follow it?! I don't think so....
He indeed managed to subjugate Japan, but he didn't do it noble.....
It's Mount Hiei ~:) He slaughtered the Sohei!!!! Outrageous!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Uesugi Kenshin
I agree with you... Kenshin was truly noble....
With the 4th Kawanakajima, I have to disagree, unfortunately..... Shingen split his army, not Kenshin....
Shingen and Kenshin - The 2 noble people of Feudal Japan. I rank them as equal men. Shingen was the more administrative guy while Kenshin was the noble Samurai who followed strictly the Bushido.
Even Kenshin said that the loss of Shingen was a great loss.... Words of a noble man....
Nobunaga wasn't even the small finger of Shingen or Kenshin...
Are we talking of great leaders who achieved the most or is just a who is the most honourable man of the feudal japan? I tought was the first then my answer....
Kenshin and Shingen split their armies. Kenshin left a small detachment at the top of a hill/mountain at his camp where Shingen was planning on ambushing him and sent the larger portion down the rise and silently across a river. He then attacked Shingen early in the day and was able to maul Shingen's army for quite some time. After that the rest of Shingen's army struck Kenshin's rear and it is unclear exactly what transpiered as there are only Takeda accounts to base it on.
EDIT: I think we are talking about the best leader, not necessarily in terms of accomplishments (though IMHO Shingen and Kenshin accomplished greater achievments than Nobunaga) but more in terms of skill and how good a person they were.
i don't think shingen or kenshin were particularly more 'noble' than nobunaga. both of them became buddhist monks and afterwards continued to lead armies and kill people. shingen deposed his father and kenshin supplanted the uesugi and 'adopted' himself into thier family to use their name and prestige. nobunaga used massed peasent levies because the geography of his territory enabled him to do so just as the hilly nature of shingen's territory precluded peasant armies and led to cavalry specialization. all three of these guys were sengoku daimyo and by definition ruthless. the stigma attaches to oda because he did a lot of the despicable acts in central japan but he didn't get the glory for unification that hideyoshi and tokugawa received. i think had kenshin or shingen been able to succesfully march on kyoto, they would have used the same methods and have the same stigma that is attached to nobunaga. all three were ambitious power hungry men.
I highly doubt Kenshin would have done what Nobunaga dide, especially at Hiei. But it is impossible to tell at this point. The reason I do not believe that Kenshin would have committed such acts is that when he was 14 his older brother was in charge of the clan (forgot the name, the one Kenshin was first a part of)., Kenshin was encouraged to depose his brother and was offerred the services of many of his father's vasals. He eventually decided to help, but only because his brother was abusing the people and ruining the clan.
I think Kenshin and Shingen were both much more benevolent rulers than Nobunaga.
Kenshin was first named Nagao Kagetora....
When he was 14, he was approached by Usami Sadamitsu who urged him to take control of the clan. He fought with his brother, Nagao Harukage, and he defeated Harukage. Then, he became part of the Uesugi.....
And also, the Koyo Gunkan, clearly states that Shingen won the 4th Kawanakajima!!!!! ~:eek:
Kenshin fought and nearly defeated the Takeda, but Baba Nobufusa and Kosaka(Takasaka) Masanobu came just in time, and crushed into the rear of Kenshin, making the battle a massacre.....
As far as I know, in the 4th battle of Kawanakajima the Takeda deployed on the plain with an almost equal number of "cavalry" sent up the mountain where the Uesugi were camping. The cavalry were supposed to drive the Uesugi down the mountain onto the plain and the main Takeda force would then massacre the retreating Uesugi. The Takeda general who came up with this tactic (not Shingen's idea so he cannot be given much credit for this battle) called it the "wood-pecker".
Things went differently as the Uesugi silently left the mountain, leaving the camp empty. They did leave a small detachment at a rivercrossing, where they were able to defend against the Takeda cavalry for quite some time. Meanwhile the Uesugi fell on the Takeda with the vanguard hitting before the mainguard and rearguard, and that made it appear as a turning wheel.
Neither clan could claim a victory as the Uesugi were driven back but the Takeda had such great losses that they could not take advantage of it.
Yup, the plan was made by Yamamoto Kansuke. Also the importance of the Takeda's 24-generals in success of Shingen shouldn't be forgotten. ~:)
Baba Nobufusa... My favourite Takeda general
Other include: Kosaka Masanobu, Yamamoto Kansuke, Yamagata Masakage......
And old Yamamoto Kansuke made an suicide charge against Uesugi troops after he realized that the plan went wrong. :bow: My favourite Takeda general is Yamagata Masakage Maybe the greatest of Shingens Cavalry commanders.After the battle of Nagashino where Masakage died.It was sayd that Togukawa Ieasy sayd that he was afraid of old Masakage even more then Shingen. :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by 1pain1Duck
True....
Yamagata Masakage was indeed a good commander, but Baba and Kosaka were the Marshalls of the Takeda army......
You have to remember that the only historical document pertaining to the 4th Kwanakajima was written by the Takeda some years after the battle, and both of their deaths. You also have to remember that the very next summer Kenshin was off campaigning with a large veteran force in another of his border regions. This evidence points to a Uesugi victory, though it is impossible to say whether the clearly biased Takeda document (which IIRC states that they lost equal numbers of soldiers) is correct that they won tactically or if Kenshin won and the Takeda were just covering up a shameful battle that few living people had actually been in.
I agree with Kenshin on 4th Kavanakajima.Gyo Gunkan is hardly an very trustable historical source.I personally think it may have been tie because if Takeda routed Uesugi why didnt they fallow them to Echigo or vice versa? :bow:
It didn't fallow because Kenshin got himself out of the trap....Quote:
Originally Posted by kagemusha
Koyo Gunkan is the only book available.... It has some evidence, after all....
Takeda only lost 2 veterans: Takeda Nobushige, Shingen's brother and Yamamoto Kansuke.... Not a very big tragedy.... It was something, but Baba and Kosaka resisted, but the ididotic Katsuyori massacred them at Nagashino.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Uesugi Kenshin
:furious:
I never said it was a giant tragedy, though the loss of those generals was significant.
Also just because the Koyo Gunkan is the only book available doesn't mean it is to be trusted, it describes the strategy and tactics used fairly well it is quite possible that they changed the conclusion of the battle from defeat to a near draw. That is what makes this an interesting topic, nobody is sure so most theories are relatively valid and we can actually talk about it, not just state facts.
I have to pile in with Uesugi Kenshin as well.
It simply doesn't add up to a Takeda victory. It was a claimed victory, sure, but that does not make it so, just like both Germany and the UK claims/claimed victory at Jutland, in reality it is far from a set fact.
Since neither side gained anything from this supposedly very bloody battle it can't have been anything but a draw. Both Shingen and Kenshin were ruthless on the battlefield and in their campaigns (good virtues for commadners), but in this particular case they didn't seem to act up to their usual behaviour. It wasn't as if they had more pressing matters to attend to right away. The road was open for the victor as both sides had used up their recruiting potential for the year.
A draw... But one brilliant draw, and basically the only result these two could get.
And even if it was a loss for Kenshin I still consider him better. Why?
Well, Shingen had the larger and 'better' army, and then performed a bright maneuver (be it his not it was good). Kenshin on the other hand somehow sniffed this out and struck the exposed flanking force without the other Takeda force knew it.
Now that makes his own maneuver even more impressive.
Btw, Nobunaga said after Kenshin was killed: "Ah, now Japan is mine!" Or something along those lines. Not entirely the same comment came after Shingen's death, if there was one.
Kenshin's goal that year was to force Shingen to attack him, he accomplished that. He also may have won (though it is up for debate) and it probably helped him secure that border, as Shingen did not have a great army on that border anymore.
Shingen left Kenshin because he was more occupied with Tokugawa....
Oh well, this concludes to one simple message:
Shingen = Kenshin ~:)
It's the truth, and everyone's happy.....
I prefer to think Kenshin is greater than Shingen, but Shingen was also a great man and definately a worthy rival. Also there is no way to be sure which was superior....
One thing I think we can all agree to is Kenshin and Shingen are each greater than Nobunaga.