The 'Arabic Assasin' surprised to lose baggage handling job

After making raps in which he repeatedly threatens bombing missions against American targets, violence against uncovered women, and all sorts of other lovely 'fun anecdotes', American born Bassam Khalaf was amazed to learn he would no longer be allowed to work as a baggage handler.
What can I stick in this suitcase? I've got a record to sell...

What amazes me about this story is the guy actually sounds surprised he won't be allowed access to baggage being loaded onto planes anymore. Is he just stupid? I mean, granted, it's unlikely he's serious, but what if he is? The guy is on record (literally and figuratively in this case) saying he intends to bomb American targets. Wouldn't we be pretty damn dumb to allow him access?

What about his Freedom of Speech, you insensitive boob? How dare you justify the trampling of his rights. Firing him makes us just as bad as them, Don!
...

Here's the part I love. Apparently, Bassam, aka The Arabic Assasin, isn't the brightest bulb on the tree. He posted his contact information, including his phone #, email address, and record label street address on his webpage (do a Google search on Bassam Khalaf). He does realize he lives in TEXAS right? This is where they dragged a guy to death just for being black.... how long does he think he's going to make it before Bubba, Jim-Bob and Wayne Lee Johnson arrive to throw him a very special party???? ~:wave:

By the way, one of the bright lights I work with is already going for the "PC of the year" award. He said "just because he's an arab muslim doesn't mean he can't express himself. This is exactly what I said was going to happen with the Patriot Act". Uh, excuse me, nobody's going to jail, except maybe the three rednecks that take him out for a weekend of excitement and adventure. He lost a job loading bags onto a plane after repeatedly claiming he was itching for the chance to bomb a building. Imagine that.... :dizzy2:

http://fileserv8.soundclick.com/imag...icassassin.jpg
~D

What an idiot!

Ha, THIS will teach him not to join the Assassin Union...

Its at least possible that his rapping is perfectly legitimate art (equally it might be rubbish or it might be an incitement to commit terrorism, I'm more of an Iron maiden man myself and i don't propose to find out). But I agree he shouldn't really be considered suitable as a baggage handler.

YOU FASCIST DOLT! This is what I'm talking about! You support this Intellectual Suppression?!


:gring:

(Sorry, I don't feel like I've contributed to a thread here in weeks. I'm maybe losing my mind due to work, who knows. I'll take a brief hiatus and see if I can find my argue-mojo again. Odd story, Don. I hope Texas lives up to it's rep this time.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

After making raps in which he repeatedly threatens bombing missions against American targets, violence against uncovered women, and all sorts of other lovely 'fun anecdotes', American born Bassam Khalaf was amazed to learn he would no longer be allowed to work as a baggage handler.
What can I stick in this suitcase? I've got a record to sell...

What amazes me about this story is the guy actually sounds surprised he won't be allowed access to baggage being loaded onto planes anymore. Is he just stupid? I mean, granted, it's unlikely he's serious, but what if he is? The guy is on record (literally and figuratively in this case) saying he intends to bomb American targets. Wouldn't we be pretty damn dumb to allow him access?

---

Ahhhh a little bit of home in the states ~;)

Stupid!
If he is not American citizen, kick him out!

Not only is he an American citizen, he was born in Houston and has lived there his whole life.

I swear, this whole thing is like a bad Saturday Night Live skit.... ...

*loud voice* what do you get when combine the misogyny and violence of American ghetto culture with the misogyny and violenc of militant Islam? The Arabic Assassin! With such hits as "On your knees 5 times, Mother F%@!r", "Bi^!, put the burkha on", "I been workin on the airplane (to the tune of I've been working on the railroad)", and "Sharia for Houston!", this masterpiece will highlight your collection. Impress your friends with how tolerant and multicultural you are! Geoffrey Nasalwhiner, political & musical critic for the New Yorker says "This is the most important statement of our times. Anyone with a desire to grow will own this album". Call 1-800-iam-dumb and order your's today. And kids... don't forget Mom, with mother's day right around the corner! *end pseudo-commercial*

~D It does really sound like a SNL skit...

Um, I think this guy ought to be fired. He's an idiot, he says he wants to hurt people, and he raps. Fire him, I say!

If he hates America so much why dont we deport him to the middle eastern country of his choice?

Because he's a locally born American citizen. We don't deport our criminals, how can we deport somebody with offensive views?

And from the interview with the guy, he strikes as more the 'ghetto street rapper' mentality then a militant muslim. He claims he's just being controversial to sell records and get rich. It's like when Dr. Dre & Ice-cube get offended that people treat them like criminals from the street. Well, fools, you've been singing about shooting cops, raping women, selling drugs and doing drive-bys for over a decade. How are we supposed to know you're making all that up to sell records...

Exactly. They want to get money, at least don't talk about hurting others. It causes all the street kids to act like them, and makes them think it's cool.
Talentless, stupid bastards.... :furious3:

Deport was the wrong word.. how about asking him to kindly get the hell out and fight his personal jihad where he belongs. (with all the other militant muslims)

I wouldnt mind asking all those thug rappers to get out of the country too, but i dont know what country I hate enough to send them to.. maybe Kim Jong Il would enjoy them..

I doubt he or the rest of them would survive outside the US

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

Exactly. They want to get money, at least don't talk about hurting others. It causes all the street kids to act like them, and makes them think it's cool.
Talentless, stupid bastards.... :furious3:

---

Well that is the MTV mentality, these MTV people would rape their mother if they could still sell her afterwards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Proletariat

What about his Freedom of Speech, you insensitive boob? How dare you justify the trampling of his rights. Firing him makes us just as bad as them, Don!
...

---

Other people we should keep a serious eye on:

Tom Clancy:
He wrote a book about a terrorist crashing a plane into the U.S. Capital Building well before the 9/11 attacks took place. At best, he was promoting the idea of using commercial aircraft to attack the U.S., and at worst, he was the secret mastermind behind 9/11.

Thomas Harris:
His books which feature Hannibal Lector (a serial killer who likes to eat his victims) as the "hero" definitely promote the idea of serial killing in today's youth. I wouldn't be surprised to find half-eaten bodies in Harris' basement. After all, he wrote a work of fiction about it, that means he probably does it in real life.

Steve Earl:
Ever listen to Copperhead Road? He talks about using know-how he learned from the Viet Cong to kill DEA agents who try to investigate his grow-op. John Lee Pettimore my ass! Earl was definitely talking about his own life. I think he should be taken into custody immediately.

Stephen King:
I mean, come on! His books speak for themselves! The man is obviously twisted! Anybody who can come up with the sick crap that man writes about is obviously a danger to society.

On the other hand, it could be that these folks are just talented artists with good imaginations.

It seems to me that this idiot rapper (and yes, I do think he is an idiot) is being hammered on because he is offensive and many people find the actual genre he works in to be offensive in and of itself. But unless there is some proof that he is an actual security threat, there really are no legal (or moral) grounds for firing him.

By all means, move him to a less sensitive job and observe him, but firing him seems to be a bit heavy-handed.

Why can't they fire him? If an author wrote a book about killing everyone in their workplace, they'd probably be fired to, or at least they should be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

Why can't they fire him? If an author wrote a book about killing everyone in their workplace, they'd probably be fired to, or at least they should be.

---

Step back and think about that for a minute.

By your reasoning, anybody who ever wrote a work of fiction involving any sort of violent act could be persecuted for their imagination.

Is that really a road you think we should take?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

By your reasoning, anybody who ever wrote a work of fiction involving any sort of violent act could be persecuted for their imagination.

---

That's what you got from that?

It wasn't his point. It's not 'any sort of violent act.' It's something that directly deals with his job.

I think they should fire him on the grounds of stupidity. I have seen some seriously dumb things before, but this is impressive. Writing music about terrorism when you are a baggage handler, hummanity really is stupid isn't it http://forums.bit-tech.net/images/smilies/sigh.gif.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

Step back and think about that for a minute.

By your reasoning, anybody who ever wrote a work of fiction involving any sort of violent act could be persecuted for their imagination.

Is that really a road you think we should take?

---

He's not being persecuted. He's not being allowed access to the airplanes he has repeatedly stated he wants to crash. I don't think he's serious either, but how do either of us really know? It's not like he got sent to Gitmo or investegated by police.

If Tom Clancy wrote a book heroizing the act of selling America's military secrets to China (in other words, he wrote a gusher in favor of Clinton ~D) it wouldn't be unreasonable to see the DIA remove his security clearance (assuming he has one).

If Thomas Harris was a practicing psychiatrist, don't think his local licensing board wouldn't keep an extra eye on him.

As far as Steven King goes, he's a Red Sox fan. He's gotta be okay. ~D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

By all means, move him to a less sensitive job and observe him, but firing him seems to be a bit heavy-handed.

---

Considering the statements this guy made, he indeed rather seems to be some rather silly guy who tries to make cash with provocative songs, and not a potential terrorist.

OTOH, if we had e.g., an elementary school teacher who would sing songs about how much he would like to rape and kill little children - should he have the right to keep his job?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Proletariat

That's what you got from that?

It wasn't his point. It's not 'any sort of violent act.' It's something that directly deals with his job.

---

I'm a commercial banker. If I wrote a short story about a daring, violent bank robbery where the crooks got away with it with the help of an inside man and then I had the story published in a magazine, is that grounds for my instant dismissal?

If you had just gotten a job working at the bank, I could understand them having some issues with you, especially if the bank had the victim of a serious heist, with the help of an inside guy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

If you had just gotten a job working at the bank, I could understand them having some issues with you, especially if the bank had the victim of a serious heist, with the help of an inside guy.

---

You didn't answer the question.

Would it be grounds for my instant dismissal?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

Considering the statements this guy made, he indeed rather seems to be some rather silly guy who tries to make cash with provocative songs, and not a potential terrorist.

OTOH, if we had e.g., an elementary school teacher who would sing songs about how much he would like to rape and kill little children - should he have the right to keep his job?

---

I think that's pretty clear. It's no good being a terrorist if you announce your plans long before you actually do anything. But who knows? Maybe that's his mindset.... the best place to hide is in plain view.

This is honest, I actually really hope he doesn't get beaten up or worse over this. Texas isn't exactly known for it's open-mindedness and there are a lot of good ole' boys down there that don't think Sept. 11th is a laughing matter. I wouldn't want to see this clown get hurt, and as I found the story on Drudgeport (which is for right-wing nutjobs like myself) I'm sure there's a few guys out there looking for him already. Hey, has anyone heard from Panzer or Kaiser today?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

You didn't answer the question.

Would it be grounds for my instant dismissal?

---

If you had just started working there, and you described in detail how to rob the bank with the help of an inside guy, and the bank had recently been robbed in exactly that manner, yeah, I think it would.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

If you had just started working there, and you described in detail how to rob the bank with the help of an inside guy, and the bank had recently been robbed in exactly that manner, yeah, I think it would.

---

Well, then I guess that's where we disagree.

Because talking, or singing, or writing about a thing are in no way even close to doing a thing.

As cliché as it is to use this word, what you are talking about is firing people for "thoughtcrime."

I thought you conservatives hated being told what you are allowed or not allowed to think or say...

Nobody's telling him he can't say it. He's free to make as many records as he wants (though, were I him, I'd get my home phone # and address down off my website). And who knows, maybe he'll sell a couple. One thing I didn't point out before is that in his songs, he does make reference to his job as a baggage handler and that you'll never know 'what special surprise I plant for you'. Doesn't an airport have a right to have employees that don't discourage travel?

He should have been fired for stupidity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

Well, then I guess that's where we disagree.

Because talking, or singing, or writing about a thing are in no way even close to doing a thing.

As cliché as it is to use this word, what you are talking about is firing people for "thoughtcrime."

I thought you conservatives hated being told what you are allowed or not allowed to think or say...

---

So you would be OK with the Klan setting up a thread here in the forum about the "The real threat the black man poses to America"? I mean after all, writing about a thing is not doing!

Baggage handlers associated with speech promoting extremist terrorist activity should not be retained. This applies whether he was 'just kidding' or not. We do not want to find out if he was serious the hard way. In point of fact we do not have the right to take such chances, as we are unlikely to be the ones on the plane if it turns out he meant every word.



Apparently hiring morons as baggage handlers is an international problem.

SYDNEY, Australia -- Qantas Airways Ltd. on Friday suspended a baggage handler who was caught on video opening a passenger's bag which contained a camel costume, donning the head and wandering around the airport tarmac.

The costume's owner, David Cox, said he was waiting inside the terminal at Sydney Airport earlier this week when he glanced outside and saw the baggage handler wearing his camel head.

"I obviously was flabbergasted, my jaw dropped to the ground," Cox told the Australian Broadcasting Corp. radio on Friday.

He said he was shocked to realize that his luggage had been tampered with, and reported the incident to the airline.

Qantas Chief Executive Geoff Dixon said a security camera had recorded the baggage handler, whose name was not immediately available, opening the bag and trying on the camel head.

He said the baggage handler had been suspended and could be fired pending further investigation.

"We are acutely aware of heightened community concerns around security of baggage," Dixon said in a statement. "What has happened is completely unacceptable and is unacceptable to the vast majority of decent, hardworking Qantas employees."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...4/s1341052.htm

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

Well, then I guess that's where we disagree.

Because talking, or singing, or writing about a thing are in no way even close to doing a thing.

As cliché as it is to use this word, what you are talking about is firing people for "thoughtcrime."

I thought you conservatives hated being told what you are allowed or not allowed to think or say...

---

The first amendment does not protect you from private employement. The employer - ie the Airline or more correctly in this case TSA, has an obligation to protect its customers from possible harm - especially by one of their own employee's. If you went into your bank and constantly talked about your going to help someone rob the bank - your employer should fire you - because you are disrupting your other employee's and possibly your customers to. Whose to say that this individual was causing disruption at work with his constant signing of destruction of aircraft.

Sometimes you have to apply a little common sense to the the concept of freedom of speech. His speech is not being curtailed - his previous employer is just distancing themselves from this knuckle heads inflammatory speech.

In his own words he set himself up to be dismissed from employement.

"Controversy sells," Khalaf said. "It brings a lot of attention. Everybody wants to label all Arabics terrorists just because a couple of people messed up. Well, I'm going to play along with that character. I'm going to let you think I'm one."

And he told people at work that what he was doing.

"I kept my music and my job separate. I told a couple of people who I thought was cool with me at work that I rapped, but I never sat there and told them lyrics or anything," said Khalaf. "I guess somebody probably told them that I had a Web site."

So in essence he brought it into his work place. Which gives the employer several things to consider when evaluating his employement.

And by the way its not a wrongful termination by Texas Law from what I can tell in the news article - which means (if true) its not a violation of his rights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

That's the great thing about this country, you can say whatever the hell you want, no matter how stupid it is. You people who are in favor of him being fired sicken me--not because I necesarrily grieve for his being fired, but because you support a growing precedent for ignoring the constitution.

---

Are you saying that a company cannot fire you, even if you damage its reputation? Of course I am not familiar with the legal system in the US, but it would strike me as a bit strange if Free Speech would go that far...

The first ammendment says that Congress will make no law banning him from making his raps. Last I checked, they hadn't.

The first ammendment is not a blanket policy that says you're allowed to do whatever you want, say whatever you want, and those around you have to tolerate you. It says the government can't come after you for saying things it doesn't like.

If I tell a biker out on the street his girlfriend is fat & ugly and looks like she'd done his whole gang, and he punches me in the nose, my first ammendment rights haven't been violated (though, this is a bad example as striking me would be illegal).

Let me make another one. If I come in to work one day and announce at a meeting that my boss's wife moonlights as a pornstar and I get fired, my first ammendment rights haven't been violated.

You guys have this childish notion that a 'right' implies that you are immune from any consequence of your actions.

Before this devolves into a humorless free speech debate, I want to ask one last light hearted question....

Does anybody else fnd this beyond just being offensive, absolutely hysterical? I did a google search on the guy's real name and found the webpage he publishes for his act. You should see him, he looks like a total poser. It's like Ali G, for real. It's just hysterical. He's got a rap on there that he lets you sample. He must use the "N" word about 50 or 60 times. Well, let's give this boy some credit, he's serious about committing suicide. He'll have the local black street gangs after him for dissing him with the "N" word, he'll have the rednecks after him for dissing America. He'll have the Feds hauling his ass off to gitmo with an electric cattle prod up his ass, followed by a firehose enema, to find out what he really does actually have planned.... I'll tell you what he does nothing halfway.

Well said don ~:cheers:

Quote:

---

I'm sure there's a few guys out there looking for him already. Hey, has anyone heard from Panzer or Kaiser today?

---

Well you see i would have no problem beating the shit out of this guy, or seeing him strung up in true southern style.

But im not as open-minded as Goofball. I see an muslim, working at an airport, glorifying islamic terrorism and specifically 9/11 style airplane related terrorism, and my close-minded evil little self sees a problem.

Thank God there are people ouy there like Goofball who remind us that just because the guy checking my bag is an islamic radical that, when not at his day job, sings about blowing me up - thats no reason to be worried or upset in the least.

~;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

Are you saying that a company cannot fire you, even if you damage its reputation? Of course I am not familiar with the legal system in the US, but it would strike me as a bit strange if Free Speech would go that far...

---

Of course that is what he is trying to say - and he is incorrect as can be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

because the guy checking my bag is an islamic radical that, when not at his day job, sings about blowing me up

---

Actually I would not go that far - I rather think he pretends to be an islamic radical to make some cash and/or to appear "cool" (if there was evidence that he is more than just a pretender I guess he would have more to worry about than just losing his job).

However, with what he is doing he has become a liability and burden in his job (by his own free decision) and I do not see why his employer should bear with him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Whoah whoah, he might be a jackass but that BS is 100% protected under the first amendment, and unless they actually have proof he was trying to commit acts of terrorism just about any lawyer in the world could sue the airport that fired him, and rightly so. That's the great thing about this country, you can say whatever the hell you want, no matter how stupid it is. You people who are in favor of him being fired sicken me--not because I necesarrily grieve for his being fired, but because you support a growing precedent for ignoring the constitution.

---

Do you even understand what you are saying? Where is the government violating his right to free speech? And you don't understand labor law very well either - most organizations have employee handbooks that set the conditions for the associate at the workplace - to include creating a atomsphere of fear in that work place. By this individual's own words he created the situation that got him fired from his job.

Again for you

"Controversy sells," Khalaf said. "It brings a lot of attention. Everybody wants to label all Arabics terrorists just because a couple of people messed up. Well, I'm going to play along with that character. I'm going to let you think I'm one."

and he brought his personal actions into the work place when he mentioned it.

"I kept my music and my job separate. I told a couple of people who I thought was cool with me at work that I rapped, but I never sat there and told them lyrics or anything," said Khalaf. "I guess somebody probably told them that I had a Web site."

Then you might want to read the employee agreement that he had to most likely sign as a condition of his employement with the Transportation Screening Agency, if the employeer stated certain condtions - the ability to sue the employer becomes very limited.

And finally Texas is not a right to work state - so to sue the employer the associate must show that he was unfairily terminated - something I doubt he can do - since by his own words he wanted to protray himself as a terrorist - which in the perception of the other associates that he worked with could cause them to believe that they were in a dangerous work environment because of this individuals actions.


He is not being prosecuted by the government for his speech - he was terminated from his employement because of his actions.

And what's even better is that I work in Texas - Supervise a plant floor and hire people for my plant all the time. You will be very surprised what actions can get you fired if some at work precieves you to be a treat or precieves you to be creating a hostile work environment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Before this devolves into a humorless free speech debate, I want to ask one last light hearted question....

Does anybody else fnd this beyond just being offensive, absolutely hysterical? I did a google search on the guy's real name and found the webpage he publishes for his act. You should see him, he looks like a total poser. It's like Ali G, for real. It's just hysterical. He's got a rap on there that he lets you sample. He must use the "N" word about 50 or 60 times. Well, let's give this boy some credit, he's serious about committing suicide. He'll have the local black street gangs after him for dissing him with the "N" word, he'll have the rednecks after him for dissing America. He'll have the Feds hauling his ass off to gitmo with an electric cattle prod up his ass, followed by a firehose enema, to find out what he really does actually have planned.... I'll tell you what he does nothing halfway.

---

Yep he is a poser is my thoughts to. Let him walk into downtown Houston and say those words over and over again. What a complete moron.

Hell he could of been terminated from his employement just because of his stupidity without much trouble.

Hmmm. It seems that some of us have done an about face when it comes to freedom of speech and freedom to work. This thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...1&page=2&pp=30

was about a Canadian teacher who was fired because he was a member of a white supremist group, and preached hate in his spare time.

Let me remind you of some of your opinions in that thread:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Redleg

Then on a legal standpoint - most likely there was a written hiring contract when the teacher signed on with the school district. If the school district did not state that particapation and membership in such clubs, organization, or rallies was not in the best interest of the profession of teaching in the school district and advised the teacher to that extend - they do not have the legal grounds to restrict his right to freedom of expression or freedom of speech. The school system and the Teacher's College has the burdern of showing that Mr Fromm was inaprioated (SP?) teaching his ideological views in the classroom.

Freedom of speech means that some people will not like what you have to say - however you nor the government can interfer with that individuals rights if they are not violating the law. The school district can interfer with that right if they up front made it a condition of the employement contract - which I don't know if the school district has one or not. If they did - I don't think it would of made the political news page - because it would be a cut and dry issue for the school district.

So in essence the government is being hypocritical here - if the Canadian government labor laws say the same as the United States. (And my feelings is that they have even more liberial labor laws which would imply that yes indeed the Canadian government postion - ie the Teacher's College is being hypocritical in this issue.)

However the firing is not right if the labor contract between the school district and the teacher did not spell out in the very beginning that he was not entitled to express his views if it was out of line with the opinions and views of the school district.

---

Why is your view so different with this guy Red? How come the airport doesn't need to have a "you must not write music about blowing up airplanes" clause in its employment contract in order to justify firing the guy?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Proletariat

Saying things like, "Well, if he was a pedophile would you want him teaching your kids?!" is irrelevant to me because it is like saying, "Well, if he was a murderer would you etc." Well, of course not. Because those are crimes.

Going to rallies and having thoughts aren't crimes

---

Neither are writing and performing violent songs.

and:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

If i had to pick between the two to teach my child, id pick the supremist... its just opinion. Thats not the point though.. It doesnt matter if a teacher is gay or a nazi on their own time as long as its not brought into the classroom.

---

Has this guy been putting his music on the airport PA system and forcing passengers to listen to it?

Now, to be fair, I myself was pretty wishy-washy on the issue, but leaned more toward firing the guy, whereas I have been defending the subject of the current thread. That was driven by my belief that by virtue of his position as an authority figure the teacher could influence children toward racism even if he never directly spoke to them about it.

At any rate, I think reading through both the threads makes it pretty obvious that many of us are much more pragmatic in our beliefs than we may believe ourselves to be, and perhaps that's not a bad thing at all.

Quote:

---

Actually I would not go that far - I rather think he pretends to be an islamic radical to make some cash and/or to appear "cool" (if there was evidence that he is more than just a pretender I guess he would have more to worry about than just losing his job).

However, with what he is doing he has become a liability and burden in his job (by his own free decision) and I do not see why his employer should bear with him.

---

I get your point, but as a passenger getting on an airplane after 9/11, i sure as hell dont want to have to deliberate on whether the guy who sings about blowing us up is serious or not.






Is this what society has come to?

Basic common sense has now become a contraversy over the first ammendment... the more I think about it the angrier I get. Open-mindedness only goes so far, and in this case, its reached its limits of sanity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Basic common sense has now become a contraversy over the first ammendment... the more I think about it the angrier I get. Open-mindedness only goes so far, and in this case, its reached its limits of sanity.

---

That's kind of how I felt about letting a white supremist teach schoolchildren. To me, common sense said that it's really not a good idea.

If I remember correctly, and I didn't go dig into that thread, I actually said I agreed that people with such a viscious political slant didn't belong teaching children, and that as long as you agreed hardline communists would be barred, I'd get on your bandwagon, and you said no, that communists were okay, it was only the far right we had to fear. Again, I haven't gone digging, and if I remember correctly it was last winter so as I say, I've been to happy hour numerous times since then...

Correction: Sorry, it was Jag. Shoulda known if somebody would be defending forced collectivization, it'd be him. ~D Actually, he wasn't, he never said how he'd feel about Stalanists teaching in the local school.

Theres no comparison. The teacher, to my knowledge, never threatened violence toward anyone.

The muslim nut, however, did threaten to fly a plane into a building September 11th of this year, among other things.

If the teacher ever threatened violence toward any of his students, or anyone at all, i would have no problem with him being fired.

There is a clear difference between supporting unpopular causes and threatening violence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

If I remember correctly, and I didn't go dig into that thread, I actually said I agreed that people with such a viscious political slant didn't belong teaching children, and that as long as you agreed hardline communists would be barred, I'd get on your bandwagon, and you said no, that communists were okay, it was only the far right we had to fear. Again, I haven't gone digging, and if I remember correctly it was last winter so as I say, I've been to happy hour numerous times since then...

---

I think that exchange actually took place between you and JAG, Don. I may be a social lefty, but I'm a pretty hard core capitalist.

~;)

Haha what a knob. It's funny that he's suprised.

But if I was an Arab I would totally play the whole "omgx i'll fly my plan of love between your towers of pleasure!!11ONe" ~D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

Hmmm. It seems that some of us have done an about face when it comes to freedom of speech and freedom to work. This thread:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...1&page=2&pp=30

was about a Canadian teacher who was fired because he was a member of a white supremist group, and preached hate in his spare time.

Let me remind you of some of your opinions in that thread:

---

In that thread we were talking about a individual who had racist views - who supposely kept his views outside of employment seperated from what he taught at school. The school system is a public system and in Canada the board that terminated his employement by my understanding was a governmental body. And you might want to look at these two sentences a little bit closer.

The school system and the Teacher's College has the burdern of showing that Mr Fromm was inaprioated (SP?) teaching his ideological views in the classroom.

The school district can interfer with that right if they up front made it a condition of the employement contract -

Quote:

---

Why is your view so different with this guy Red? How come the airport doesn't need to have a "you must not write music about blowing up airplanes" clause in its employment contract in order to justify firing the guy?

---

Well he did mention it in the workplace now did he not? As the news article clearly states in his own words - he brought his outside interests into the work environment by mentioning it at work. In Texas Employment law there is a clause for all employers that they must provide a safe work environment for their associates. A perception of causing a hostile work environment can get you terminated from your employement. Posing as a terrorist because you want to sing rap and sell your music, mentioning your music at work, leads one look into what your music is - an associate then looks into what type of music is sung - and because of the language used feels that this individual creates for him a hostile work environment,(edit) and goes to his employeer - the employer then can legimately investigate the individual and decide what course of action to take to insure that the work environment is not a hostile one. (added this last bit because I forget it.)



Again who and what governmental agency has violated his free speech?

Quote:

---

Has this guy been putting his music on the airport PA system and forcing passengers to listen to it?

Now, to be fair, I myself was pretty wishy-washy on the issue, but leaned more toward firing the guy, whereas I have been defending the subject of the current thread. That was driven by my belief that by virtue of his position as an authority figure the teacher could influence children toward racism even if he never directly spoke to them about it.

At any rate, I think reading through both the threads makes it pretty obvious that many of us are much more pragmatic in our beliefs than we may believe ourselves to be, and perhaps that's not a bad thing at all.

---

If the individual had not mentioned his desire to be a rapper at work - then I would say he was not terminated fairily because no-one within the work environment would of know about his actions - but the knucklehead brought the subject up in the work environment when he mentioned it. Again I refer to this statement in the new article.

"I kept my music and my job separate. I told a couple of people who I thought was cool with me at work that I rapped, but I never sat there and told them lyrics or anything," said Khalaf. "I guess somebody probably told them that I had a Web site."

Futhermore - Khalaf also brought his work into his music business with this little line in his lyric

"I've been screening your bags for the past six months, and you don't even know it," said Khalaf, who also said Thursday that he is not really a terrorist and that his rhymes are exaggerations meant to gain publicity.


Now in the discussion of the racist teacher - if someone would of showed in that article where the teacher intermix his personal life with his teaching job - or his teaching job intermix into his outside activities - I would of said the same thing for the racist teacher. That the school system did not deny this individual his free speech and did not unfairily terminate him - but in that article we did not have a clear indiciation of this type of actions by the person that was terminated. If the racist teacher crossed the line that this individual did - I would of stated fire the racist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Theres no comparison. The teacher, to my knowledge, never threatened violence toward anyone.

---

No, he did worse. He attended rallies and preached hate in an effort to incite whites into violence against non-whites.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

The muslim nut, however, did threaten to fly a plane into a building September 11th of this year, among other things.

---

No, he wrote songs about it. Most artists write songs about doing things they have never done, nor ever will do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PanzerJager

If the teacher ever threatened violence toward any of his students, or anyone at all, i would have no problem with him being fired.

There is a clear difference between supporting unpopular causes and threatening violence.

---

There is also a clear difference between writing songs about blowing up planes and actually blowing them up.

I find it very telling that you refer to the white supremist as "teacher" instead of "racist scumbag nutjob" but refer to the baggage handler as "muslim nut."

Is Islam worse than racism?

Just face up to it PJ. You defended the racist because you don't find his brand of expression as objectionable as you find the terrorism-rapper's, that's why you agree with his being fired.

Well, as the only one with any sort of continuity to their arguments, since I argued for getting rid of both of them, let's look at one important difference...

As far as I know (and I only know what your article said) the teacher didn't make any threats against anyone. He enouraged white-power and racism (which I find abhorent and I agree he shouldn't be around children in a leadership role).

This guy talked about the fact that he handles bags and could slip something in. He also said he intended to relive September 11th this year. Just because he's a moron and it's clear he doesn't have the brainpower to pull it off doesn't excuse his statements. What's more, as Red was wrong, as a baggage handler, he works for the airport authority, a private corporation, not the TSA. And they DO have a right not to employ somebody who makes idle threats about destroying their property.

Just out of curiosity Goofy, why did you go make the hypocrite argument with that old thread, when it showed you to be just as guilty of it as everyone else?

It seriously weakens your defense of this guy, because, no offense, I now find myself wondering why you want to support a guy who makes open and public threats to destroy people's lives, but silence a guy who makes racial superiority arguments.

Quote:

---

No, he did worse. He attended rallies and preached hate in an effort to incite whites into violence against non-whites.

---

Is there any proof of that? A belief in white supremacy does not automatically mean that one promotes violence against other races. Your making a big leap that I dont remember being the case, although it was a long time ago.

Someone can very easily believe whites are better than the other races and not support violence against those other races.

Quote:

---

No, he wrote songs about it. Most artists write songs about doing things they have never done, nor ever will do.

---

Oh, now hes an artist? ~:eek: Rappers very often write about a lifestyle they live, or once lived.

Quote:

---

There is also a clear difference between writing songs about blowing up planes and actually blowing them up.

---

Not when you work at an airport. Im sorry, but common sense has to have a say in this.

Quote:

---

I find it very telling that you refer to the white supremist as "teacher" instead of "racist scumbag nutjob" but refer to the baggage handler as "muslim nut."

---

And I find it very telling that refered to the muslim nut as an "artist". Shall we continue to draw unsubstantiated conclusions about eachother's motives?

Quote:

---

Is Islam worse than racism?

---

It really depends on what brand of Islam we are talking about.

Quote:

---

Just face up to it PJ. You defended the racist because you don't find his brand of expression as objectionable as you find the terrorism-rapper's, that's why you agree with his being fired.

---

Baseless accusations arent worth the time it takes to write them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Well, as the only one with any sort of continuity to their arguments, since I argued for getting rid of both of them, let's look at one important difference...

---

Well your not the only one with consistency. Like I said - with the information provided - the teacher did not intermix the two, while the baggage handler did.

Quote:

---

As far as I know (and I only know what your article said) the teacher didn't make any threats against anyone. He enouraged white-power and racism (which I find abhorent and I agree he shouldn't be around children in a leadership role).

---

Exactly the racist was by the news report keeping his personal life seperate from his teaching.

Quote:

---

This guy talked about the fact that he handles bags and could slip something in. He also said he intended to relive September 11th this year. Just because he's a moron and it's clear he doesn't have the brainpower to pull it off doesn't excuse his statements. What's more, as Red was wrong, as a baggage handler, he works for the airport authority, a private corporation, not the TSA. And they DO have a right not to employ somebody who makes idle threats about destroying their property.

---

Did I not say this also? Private corporations have an obligation to prevent a hostile work environment for their associates - idle threats while being meaningless for the most part - can create a hostile work environment.

Sorry, I forgot, sarcasm doesn't translate well on here, Red. That was actually a dig at Goofy, not you, but I don't think anybody, him included has necessarily been hypocritical. I didn't mean to suggest that I thought anybody had.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Well, as the only one with any sort of continuity to their arguments, since I argued for getting rid of both of them

---

Hey - I feel left out :stare:

Oops ... just saw your last post ~:grouphug:

Quote:

---

No, he wrote songs about it. Most artists write songs about doing things they have never done, nor ever will do.

---

Rap people aren't artists. I see nothing wrong with firing this idiot or the white supremisist.

Well, this joker would make an excellent target for anyone wanting to make a rather direct statement by busting up a terrorist supporting type. I've got kids now, so no such fun for me...

He's not gonna get free speech protection. Security positions have a whole different criteria. Another way to do the termination would have been to detain him for questioning for a few days, then have some security agency or even a judge bar him from entering the airport (since his statements are a threat to security) then fire him for unauthorized absences. Laugh, but I've seen companies use unexcused absences to get rid of employees that committed crimes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

I'm a commercial banker. If I wrote a short story about a daring, violent bank robbery where the crooks got away with it with the help of an inside man and then I had the story published in a magazine, is that grounds for my instant dismissal?

---

What's next, Goofball? Affirmative action for terrorists? (I can play slipper-slope, too.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

Originally Posted by Proletariat
Saying things like, "Well, if he was a pedophile would you want him teaching your kids?!" is irrelevant to me because it is like saying, "Well, if he was a murderer would you etc." Well, of course not. Because those are crimes.

Going to rallies and having thoughts aren't crimes

---

Erm, I didn't say that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Just out of curiosity Goofy, why did you go make the hypocrite argument with that old thread, when it showed you to be just as guilty of it as everyone else?

---

Believe it or not Don, I knew my position in the old thread was going to undermine my own arguments in this thread, but I thought the old thread was relevant and would add to the current one. If you remember, I even pointed out the differences in my two positions when I brought up the old thread by saying:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

Now, to be fair, I myself was pretty wishy-washy on the issue, but leaned more toward firing the guy, whereas I have been defending the subject of the current thread. That was driven by my belief that by virtue of his position as an authority figure the teacher could influence children toward racism even if he never directly spoke to them about it.

---

Apparently others though, are not similarly able to acknowledge their own contradictions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

It seriously weakens your defense of this guy, because, no offense, I now find myself wondering why you want to support a guy who makes open and public threats to destroy people's lives, but silence a guy who makes racial superiority arguments.

---

Perhaps it does. I guess if I should be in favor of firing one I should be in favor of firing both. Except in this case my belief is that the baggage handler is just a harmless idiot who will never really hurt anybody and is just trying to make money; we don't even know that he believes the crap he is singing about.

On the other hand, the white supremist is very clear about what he believes in, and it scares me that a man who holds beliefs that only about sixty years ago caused 6 million people to be herded into ovens is in a position to shape and mold the minds of my and other children.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Proletariat

What's next, Goofball? Affirmative action for terrorists? (I can play slipper-slope, too.)

---

Sorry, I though we were talking about some guy who made records. What "terrorists" are you talking about? Are they the same "terrorists" as the ones in Gitmo, more and more of whom are now being released because it turns out they are guilty of nothing more than being Muslim and having brown skin?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Proletariat

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Proletariat

Saying things like, "Well, if he was a pedophile would you want him teaching your kids?!" is irrelevant to me because it is like saying, "Well, if he was a murderer would you etc." Well, of course not. Because those are crimes.

Going to rallies and having thoughts aren't crimes.

---

Erm, I didn't say that.

---

Erm, yes you did.

It's a direct quote.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

Apparently others though, are not similarly able to acknowledge their own contradictions.

---

Then kindly point out the contradictions. One was done by the government - ie the Canadian school system - which the article and you lead me to believe was a governmental enterprise - the other was done by a private enterprise.

One individual in the news article did not intermix this work with his personal philisophy. The other intermix his work and his personal philisophy in an attempt to make a buck.

The only contradiction in my postion is that I hold government agencies to a higher standard of behavior then I do private enterprises. Because in the United States Freedom of Speech provides you protection from the government - but still requires you to be responsible for what you say and do.

Freedom of speech only means the government can not sanction you for your thoughts - it does not mean private enterprises can not. Freedom of speech entitles you not to be arrested or harassed by the government because of what you say, or believe. However Freedom of Speech does not protect you from individuals or private business from refusing to deal with you anylonger.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Redleg

Then kindly point out the contradictions.

---

How do you know I meant you, Red?

~;)

Have a good weekend, I'm outta here...

~:cheers:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

How do you know I meant you, Red?

~;)

---

I don't - but I see how you ignored my counter to your attempt at saying my arguement on this individual was hypocrisy. But I am sure your more pointing your finger at PJ while ignoring the other 3 fingers pointed at yourself.

Quote:

---

Have a good weekend, I'm outta here...

~:cheers:

---

About 3 more hours of work - then home to play, cut the grass and go to Portland - to take my son to a theater arts camp.

Have a good week end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

Erm, yes you did.

It's a direct quote.

---

*blush*

I was wondering how it had such a sagacious tone. My apologies.

(What thread was that? About the white-supremicist teacher?)

They should have put this guy in charge or airport security and made the libs happy. ~;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goofball

Believe it or not Don

Perhaps it does. I guess if I should be in favor of firing one I should be in favor of firing both. Except in this case my belief is that the baggage handler is just a harmless idiot who will never really hurt anybody and is just trying to make money; we don't even know that he believes the crap he is singing about.

On the other hand, the white supremist is very clear about what he believes in, and it scares me that a man who holds beliefs that only about sixty years ago caused 6 million people to be herded into ovens is in a position to shape and mold the minds of my and other children.

---

Well, we all have our 'bad' debating habits around here. Mine is hyperbole (stretching somebody else's argument beyond where they intended it) and yours is attributing false motives. I am going to spare you that, but suffice it say, had I wanted to treat you the way you frequently treat Panzer, I could really let you have it over this. Remember that, just cause your position looks bad doesn't mean the person meant it badly.

Personally, I think you have a huge gaping hole in your logic center. Regadless of whether you 'feel bad' for this guy's singing career or not, 1) he already had a damn good job (baggage handlers make $25 an hour, 40 a week, full benefits, plus overtime) and 2) could have found all kinds of other controversy to create than something that related directly to his job. But he didn't. I'm torn on his motives, and most of me thinks he was just stupid, but a very loud minority thought is going on that this guy intended exactly what he said.

After watching 3000 of my countrymen die, I'm not willing to take chances, and I sure as shit don't think it's something to joke about or get rich off.

Bye the way the guy said today hes glad he got fired as it gave him more publicity than he could ever have hoped for and hopes it will land him a recording contract.

I hope he enjoys his 30 seconds of fame. ~:cheers: Those spotlights that are on him are the ones leading Bubba, Jim-Bob and Wayne Lee on their drive up from San Antonio. I hope like hell he was smart enough to ask for police protection, because something tells me, in the next few days, he's going to really need it. Though, as SCOTUS just pointed out, they're under no obligation to lift a finger to help him unless they see the crime being committed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Bye the way the guy said today hes glad he got fired as it gave him more publicity than he could ever have hoped for and hopes it will land him a recording contract.

---

Getting a rap recording contract...hmm...with all the shootouts at rap studios, that might be a death sentence. ~D