Israeli evacuations from the Gaza Strip

I don't know any articale about this that I can find on the internet, but I've been reading about it in the newspapers.
Basically, Isrealis are being forcibly evacuated from lands by the Isreali government to appease the Palestinians (I think...). Many are resiting, or refusing to believe that it will really happen (or did happen, the articales were a few days old).

I'm not sure how to feel about this. I have a lot of problems with the Isreali government. But is it fair to the common people to be evacuated from their homes for peace? Isn't it sort of the same thing that the Isrealis did to the Palestinians in the first place? I don't know. Peace is obviously a very good goal, but will it help? And is forcible relocation justified?

Oh, and a side question. Is Isreal a theoracracy? I think that almost all Isrealis are Jewish. But the leaders obviously aren't Orthodox Jews... Are there any none Jewish Isrealis? Just something that I've never been able to find out...

And any real articales would be helpful in making sense of my ramblings. :bow:

It is a democracy.

There are a minority of Arab Israelis.

The land that the (mostly ultra right wing Jews) are being removed from are contested land. It is a complex issue, but it boils down to an attempt at peaceful resolution which the monoculture supporters on both sides are trying to derail.

In order to get some peace and quiet over there one day, somebody's gonna get kicked out of somewhere they live.

Aren't the settlers all getting tons of cash (which is basically from the US) in order to move? I'm usually on the Israeli's side on this stuff, but they can just shut up about this, imho.

The arabs are not willing to live with a Jewish minority in their midst while the Isreali's are.

Another victory for the Jew hating arabs.

Every year Israel grows smaller and smaller in an attempt to appease the arabs.. and it never does.

The arab terrorists have been telling their people they are going to kick out the Jews, and now they have a victory. :no:

I don't think that Israel is getting smaller.

My view on this is simple. If you are going to have settlers, don't use jewish fundamentalists. My take on the whole problem is that Israel should annex all the occupied areas, integrate the palestinians and grant them Israeli citizenship. Terrorist should be arrested and prosecuted as any domestic criminal. If a period of special status is required, fine, but it's better to get it over with. A independent Palestine is to late to solve the problems.

I'm for an independant Palestine. I think the whole world is just sick of the the conflict already.

Conflicts are like throwing rocks in the water. The problme with Israel is that it is like throwing a boulder in the water all the time. Enough already. The ripples and splash affeect everyone. Like a fat guy.

yyyaargh

Aren't the settlers all getting tons of cash (which is basically from the US) in order to move?
Yes , and in many cases they got tons of cash to move into the illegal settlements in the first place .

how about the rest of the world cut those two countrys of from the rest of the world untill there is peace.
Im so bloody sick of their medieval mentality and racist thinking. (Both sides)
Isolate the area and cut of their borders so they, they dont deserve better.

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Another victory for the Jew hating arabs.

Every year Israel grows smaller and smaller in an attempt to appease the arabs.. and it never does.

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Another injustice against the Jewish people.

Look at what is going on in plain terms: Jewish people are being evicted from their homes and being told they have to live in the Jewish region of the country in order to create living space for another people - the argument being that the Jews shouldn't be there in the first place.
What does this remind you of....

The whole exercise is futile anyway, since Hamas has said it will not end its campaign of terror until Israel is destroyed and the PLA has even stated that it will not be satisfied until Jerusalem has also been returned, which is something that the Israelis will not do. So this minority of people have been abused to appease a pointless whim of the uninformed majority. The Israeli government has been forced by international pressure to sell out its own people in order to appease the terrorists.

Did you see the guy who was going to throw his baby out the window because he didn't want to leave 'the promised land'? :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Steppe Merc

I don't know any articale about this that I can find on the internet, but I've been reading about it in the newspapers.

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The Web is awash with articles, blogs and reports about the matter. I can't be bothered with 'your site is biased' games so I'll just give you a piece of my mind, knowing that you, Steppe Merc, will make up your own mind anyway.

I have always been of the opinion that those settlers should get the hell out of there, no matter what Tel Aviv, the U.S. or the Palestinian side have to say on the matter. They are just one more sore on the face of the Middle East. A good deal of them are Americans anyway, some don' t even speak Hebrew, others are kids who 'settle' at the expense of Daddy's credit card. I saw some images of their deportation on the news yesterday that merely confirmed what I knew and believed all along; mostly young hotheads and halfbrains shouting 'Gestapo!' and crying for their Mommies and Daddies when they were carried off by soldiers. Get a life, guys, preferably elsewhere than in Israel.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Another victory for the Jew hating arabs.

Every year Israel grows smaller and smaller in an attempt to appease the arabs.. and it never does.

The arab terrorists have been telling their people they are going to kick out the Jews, and now they have a victory. :no:

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What unmittigated tosh from start to finish. Your willful ignorance on this matter is beneath contempt.

How is Israel getting smaller? Gaza isn't even in Israel. Unless of course you subscribe to the concept of Greater Israel.

Let's look at the facts.

Gaza - 2 million Palestinians, 4,000 militant settlers. Settlers given free access to roads, freedom of movement, protection from the army. Given land which Palestinians were forciably cleared off. Israeli army shuts down main road through Gaza at will frequently. Palestinians subject to checkpoints (also routinely closed).

Compensation for Palestinians cleared off land - $0
Compensation for Israelis cleared off Palestinians land $140,000 a pop (plus more)

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yes , and in many cases they got tons of cash to move into the illegal settlements in the first place .

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How was the Israeli occupation and colonisation of the Gaza strip illegal when the area was conquered in the Six-Day War. One must remember that Israel initiated hostilities because it's 'peaceful' neighbours were about to invade.

The methods the Israeli's used once there are not exactly benevolent, but the occupation is not illegal, else you could claim that the United States has been illegally occupied and should be returned to the native tribes that lived there (as well as any other conquest).

Can anyone say if this is actually garnering any goodwill from the Palestinians?

I can't tell from listening to the BBC interviews on the subject this morning, and if this is only appeasing the UN, it's pretty useless.

Hamas claims victory. They say it cost 1000 Israeli lives in the latest Indifatah to take back Gazza and it may take another 100000 to take back all of Israel. This is an example of Palestinian bigotry. Once more how is that over a million arabs can live in Israel but no Jews may live in Palestine?

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Hamas claims victory. They say it cost 1000 Israeli lives in the latest Indifatah to take back Gazza and it may take another 100000 to take back all of Israel. This is an example of Palestinian bigotry. Once more how is that over a million arabs can live in Israel but no Jews may live in Palestine?

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there is a diference between living on a territory and imposing military checkpoints and other controls on the population of said territory....even if i don´t think the war mongers on the palestinian side will put the point so lightly.

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there is a diference between living on a territory and imposing military checkpoints and other controls on the population of said territory....even if i don´t think the war mongers on the palestinian side will put the point so lightly.

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The land was turned over to the Palestinians was is not? They could remove the checkpoints. The point is that Jews are not allowed to live in Palestine checkpoints or not. In fact they were going to and still might bulldoze these whole settlements as the Palestinans dont even want things built by Jews on their land. IT should be up to the settlers whether they want to move or not.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Hamas claims victory. They say it cost 1000 Israeli lives in the latest Indifatah to take back Gazza and it may take another 100000 to take back all of Israel. This is an example of Palestinian bigotry. Once more how is that over a million arabs can live in Israel but no Jews may live in Palestine?

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Who cares who claims victory? What does it matter? Just get on with the business of justice and peace.

If I help an old lady across the road and Al Qaida declare it a victory for the noble jihad - then that doesn't mean I shouldn't have helped the old lady. Such thinking is regressive and is the kind of zero sum nonsense that typifies the ME problem.

And as for the million arabs living in Israel - there are frequent political moves to have them deported and they are second class citizens in Israel - with poorer schools, poorer areas, etc.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

If I help an old lady across the road and Al Qaida declare it a victory for the noble jihad - then that doesn't mean I shouldn't have helped the old lady. Such thinking is regressive and is the kind of zero sum nonsense that typifies the ME problem.

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You know that isn't analgous, Idaho.

What is the point of making a concession for the aim of peace if your opponent is claiming it's their own terrorist actions that brought it about? Doesn't it seem like it's just encouraging more terrorism?

I'm all for the settlers moving out if it's actually going to make progress. If it's just encouraging the Palestinian 'only the Intifadah gets results' mentality, then what will this solve?

It seems the only people who are appreciating this move by the Israelis are the Western governments involved in the process.

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A good deal of them are Americans anyway, some don' t even speak Hebrew, others are kids who 'settle' at the expense of Daddy's credit card.

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So we must dislike them because they are rich? Is it morally acceptable to turf someone out of their home just because they or their parents are rich?

This is a completely token jesture that appeases no one. The Israeli street is unhappy because their country has lost land. The settlers are unhappy because they have lost their homes. Hamas are unhappy because they have sworn not to rest until the nation of Israel is no more. The PLA is unhappy because they still want a return to pre-Six Day war borders. The only people really happy about this are the U.N, because it makes them feel that they have done their little bit towards ensuring peace in the Middle East.

Hamas will now smell victory may be at hand. They will keep comitting attrocities and performing acts of violence while they think they will be rewarded for their disobedience. What happens when they demand something that cannot be given? Whatever happened to no negotiations with the terrorists?

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In fact they were going to and still might bulldoze these whole settlements as the Palestinans dont even want things built by Jews on their land.

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They have demanded that the homes be demolished, but that the greenhouses remain.

Without getting into the debate about whether forcing the Isreali citizens out of the Gaza Strip was a good idea or not, I will say this: those being evacuated should accept it peacefully, find a new place to live, and get on with their lives. I've seen that many of them are fighting tooth-and-nail to stay, and I simply don't see a point to it. Yes, their lives are being disrupted, but many other people in the world suffer far greater disruptions and still find ways to thrive without bitterness.

For that matter, I've never fully understood why the Palestinians living in refugee camps never managed to do this. Consider: the Middle East is a large area, and the vast majority of it is Arab-dominated. Why haven't most of the Palestinians gone to Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or one of the many other surrounding Arab nations to start new lives? Why continue to live in refugee camps, waiting for decades to return to a land that most will probably never be able to return to? Why not accept that what's done is done, and cannot be easily undone? (Once again, I will not get into the debate over whether Isreal's actions post-1948 were just or not.)

Could the answer possibly be that they will not even consider letting go of the idea of their "rightful homeland", and hold on to their bitterness as long as the land is under Isreal's control? If this is so, it seems to be causing a great deal of self-inflicted suffering. It's the result of being completely fixated on one particular idea of "the way things should be", when in fact there are many acceptable possibilities.

The conclusion I have been coming to lately is this: all land-ownership claims that are based on history are invalid. No one - neither the Isrealis, nor the Palestinians, nor the Native Americans, nor the Northern Irish, nor anyone else - can claim that any piece of land anywhere should be theirs, simply because their people occupied it in the past. The Isrealis can't claim that Jerusalem is theirs because they owned it in Biblical times, and the Palestinians can't claim that it's theirs because they lived there before WWII. No matter who you are, your people was not the first to occupy the land in which you now live, and will probably not be the last. Chances are your people's ancestors conquered the land in some ancient brutal conquest, displacing those living there at the time, who had also come to occupy it through an earlier, equally brutal conquest.

And I have only this to say about it: get over it. The injustices of the past will never be completely rectified while this world lasts. They don't have to be. What is required, then? I think that one of my favorite older bands, DC Talk, said it well in their song Colored People:


Ignorance has wronged some races
And vengeance is the Lord's
If we aspire to share this space
Repentance is the cure


And there it is. Repentence, forgiveness, reconcilliation - a willingness to put the past behind, to not demand recompence for past wrongs, and to change one's own ways for the good of others. Each of us must give up some of our own "rights" for the sake of peace and justice.

Back to the point: many Isrealis lost their homes in centuries of persecution all over the world. Many Palestinians have lost their homes in the continuing conflict with Isreal. Now some Isrealis are losing their homes as well. Many more people on both sides will lose their homes before all this is over. All should recognize their place in the great tragedy we call "human history" and should make the best of it. Flexibility and adaptability will go a long way towards easing the pain, while bitterness and stubborness will only make it worse.

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

You know that isn't analgous, Idaho.

What is the point of making a concession for the aim of peace if your opponent is claiming it's their own terrorist actions that brought it about? Doesn't it seem like it's just encouraging more terrorism?

I'm all for the settlers moving out if it's actually going to make progress. If it's just encouraging the Palestinian 'only the Intifadah gets results' mentality, then what will this solve?

It seems the only people who are appreciating this move by the Israelis are the Western governments involved in the process.

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Nonsensical and childish.

The Palestinians are more than Hamas. Of course any bit of progress the militants are going to claim as their own - so what? That is the ultimate dog in the manger. Don't change because someone we don't like may have wanted us to change.

Simple justice and peace demands that Israel abandon it's settlements and help construct a viable Palestinian state.

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Originally Posted by Kommodus

For that matter, I've never fully understood why the Palestinians living in refugee camps never managed to do this. Consider: the Middle East is a large area, and the vast majority of it is Arab-dominated. Why haven't most of the Palestinians gone to Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or one of the many other surrounding Arab nations to start new lives? Why continue to live in refugee camps, waiting for decades to return to a land that most will probably never be able to return to? Why not accept that what's done is done, and cannot be easily undone? (Once again, I will not get into the debate over whether Isreal's actions post-1948 were just or not.)

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Because the majority of them don't hold passports, are stateless without full citizenship rights? That the few who do escape are those with enough money to get citizenship or train to get decent jobs.

You have a woefully inadequte appreciation of what it means in this world to be a refugee. It aint Kansas mate - they can't just hitch a ride to the next state and do a few double shifts washing dishes to pay for their own college.

My understanding was that all settlements in Gaza and the West Bank were illegal under international law. Those territories could be occupied to prevent militarization, but the land could not be settled by Israeli citizens, and the territories could not be annexed. So these people are only being asked to cease an illegal activity. Sharon had a big hand in creating the settlements, now he is ending them.

The manpower and risk to protect these settlements has exceeded the political desire to keep them. Sharon is just being realistic here. But I don't expect him to back down on any claims on current Israeli borders. Just as I don't expect the Palestinians to stop trying...

If the Israelis think they'll find peace by abandoning Gaza, i think they are sourly mistaking. The Palestinians radicals will see this move as a sign of weakness and will double their effort to blow more Israelis.

Before jumping to conclusions what is going to happen - I will give it a month and then look at the actions of the Palenstine Authority.

Israel has made the first step in attempting to bring a peaceful solution to the problem - it is now the Palenstine people's turn.

I agree with Redleg on this one.Lets see how it turns out.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Nonsensical and childish.

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On the contrary, I think it is rather sensible of Proletariat to demand measures that produce results, not mere gestures or postures. And this withdrawal is an encouraging move by Tel Aviv, whatever second or third thoughts and 'hidden' intentions Sharon may harbour.

The Palestinians have a problem of a different nature. That problem is the very real possibility that the Israeli withdrawal may be the sign for an overt conflict or even a civil war between Fatah and Hamas and their various affiliates and branches, starting in Gaza and spreading to the West Bank.

This is my great worry for a Palestinian state, Adrian. No one is really in control and the intentions of the different powerful groups are not in sync. There has already been extensive violence between the Palestinian security forces and Hamas, even with the common 'enemy' of Israel still in place.

If Palestine were made a state and Hamas comitted a major terrorist attack against Israel, Israel would demand retribution, but the Authority cannot control Hamas. What then?

I think if Palestinian government wants that the rest of the world starts taking them seriously.They have to go after Hamas.And that means civil war.

I've always wondered what affect Palestinian statehood would have politically. As it stands now, there is no real leadership, and thus no real responsibility. Given an actual government, they would be pressured heavily by the international community and Israel to crack down on Hamas and the like. But they would also gain political protection against Israeli attacks and assassinations, since Israel would need to encroach on their sovereignty to do these acts. Terror bombing would either be viewed as acts of war, or failure by the Palestine government to control it's population. They would have to crack down, or face a declaration of war from Israel.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Nonsensical and childish.

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Oh.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Simple justice and peace demands that Israel abandon it's settlements and help construct a viable Palestinian state.

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Translation: Just shut up Israelis, the sooner you get on with it there'll be peace.

So that's the brillantly nuanced insight you bring to the table?

The Israelis are doing their part, for the moment, and there's no good evidence that it's actually being noticed by the ones it's aimed at reconciling with.

There's alot of Jews that think this is a good idea, and the Jews who are fighting it tooth and nail are being kicked out by the Jewish government. Yet the only thing I've heard from the Palestinian camp is 'Sweet! Now let's keep it up and we'll get it all back!' and not much 'Well, at least it's a start.'


So back to post #15:

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Originally Posted by Prole

Can anyone say if this is actually garnering any goodwill from the Palestinians?

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I'd really like to know.

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Originally Posted by Al Khalifah

If Palestine were made a state and Hamas committed a major terrorist attack against Israel, Israel would demand retribution, but the Authority cannot control Hamas. What then?

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The Authority needs outside help to bring its house in order, that much is obvious. Money, weapons, but also new corruption checks and political balances, a well-established free press and so many other things... dammit.

Israel needs to do all the running on this one. They need to withdraw from the West Bank and give back Palestinian land stolen by settlers and the security wall. THey need to give back Palestinian water supplies. They need to stop running a brutal apartheid state.

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Originally Posted by AdrianII

The Authority needs outside help to bring its house in order, that much is obvious. Money, weapons, but also new corruption checks and political balances, a well-established free press and so many other things... dammit.

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Such things are the products of mature political societies. Palestine is a fragmented, empoverished, destroyed country - if that... You can't grow roses in rubble. You need to build the infrastructure and economy to get the political system to mature. Expecting it to happen the other way round is crazy.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

They need to stop running a brutal apartheid state.

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From the guy who earlier leveled this at another poster...

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Such thinking is regressive and is the kind of zero sum nonsense that typifies the ME problem.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

You can't grow roses in rubble. You need to build the infrastructure and economy to get the political system to mature. Expecting it to happen the other way round is crazy.

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I guess the Israeli democracy must've developed in Miracle Gro Potting Soil.

You know who could build the infrastructure and economy, Idaho?

How about the Iranians or Saudis who are all filthy rich and claim that their Arabic brothers are being screwed by the Jews, yet don't seem to be doing much to get their so-called brothers out of refugee camps and into homes?

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Originally Posted by Idaho

You need to build the infrastructure and economy to get the political system to mature.

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The fact of the matter is that all these elements are needed at the same time -- and the time is now -- in order for any kind of roadmap to make sense. You can not develop a mature Palestinian state in vitro and then hold it up to the Israelis and say 'Look, we did it!' The real issue is that Israel will have to contribute to the growth and stability of that state as much as the Palestinians themselves and various outside forces that are willing to help. And prior to all of that, of course, you need trust between the two governments and the two wider political elites. Trust grows through cooperation and mutually beneficial ventures. These are hard to find.

I have no solution.

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

How about the Iranians or Saudis who are all filthy rich and claim that their Arabic brothers are being screwed by the Jews, yet don't seem to be doing much to get their so-called brothers out of refugee camps and into homes?

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They have a vested interest in a continued conflict between Israel and Palestinians. Keeping them out is going to cost money, but letting them in on this issue any further than they are right now will be even costlier in the long run.

They would be part of the final equation, though -- a regional security arrangement supported by all the Security Council heavy-weights. That road is long, seemingly interminable, and the map for it hasn't even been drawn yet.

Well, anybody who has been around this forum for a while knows that I am a staunch Israel supporter. And in this case I believe the Israelis are doing exactly the right thing. Only by taking unilateral action with no promise or guarantee of reciprocation will either side be able to get the peace process back on track. And since the Arabs clearly will not be the ones to take such unilateral action, it falls to Israel to do it.

Kudos to the Israeli leadership on this one.

I was watching BBC World last night and they were interviewing the Arab League (or whatever its called) Ambassador to the UN. He had no words of approval for the move, and only stated a number of times in a number of different ways that the Israelis need to do more. The interviewer asked him at least five times (in one way or another) if he didn't think that maybe it was time for the Palestinians to try making even the smallest of gestures toward a lasting peace, and he dodged the question every time, instead repeating the all too familiar refrain that the Israelis needed to do more and implying that he did not trust the motivation behind the pullout.

Hopefully, this is not the attitude of all Arabs.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Such things are the products of mature political societies. Palestine is a fragmented, empoverished, destroyed country - if that... You can't grow roses in rubble. You need to build the infrastructure and economy to get the political system to mature.

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Maybe Arafat should have been doing that with all the aid money he received, rather than buying guns, or simply salting it away in his offshore bank accounts.

Just a thought.

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What unmittigated tosh from start to finish. Your willful ignorance on this matter is beneath contempt.

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Tosh huh! Thats cute, where are you from? ~D

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How is Israel getting smaller? Gaza isn't even in Israel. Unless of course you subscribe to the concept of Greater Israel.

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Your ignorance of the 6 day war is "beneath contempt".

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Let's look at the facts.

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Now thats "tosh"! :laugh4:

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Gaza - 2 million Palestinians, 4,000 militant settlers. Settlers given free access to roads, freedom of movement, protection from the army. Given land which Palestinians were forciably cleared off. Israeli army shuts down main road through Gaza at will frequently. Palestinians subject to checkpoints (also routinely closed).

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How many arabs live in Israel? Possibly if the palestinians acted in a mature and civilized manner, as the israeli arabs do, they wont be treated like children.

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Compensation for Palestinians cleared off land - $0
Compensation for Israelis cleared off Palestinians land $140,000 a pop (plus more)

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Thats the cost of war.

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

How about the Iranians or Saudis who are all filthy rich and claim that their Arabic brothers are being screwed by the Jews, yet don't seem to be doing much to get their so-called brothers out of refugee camps and into homes?

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Iranians are Arabic? Some are, but I think there is still a good amount of Iranian blood in there.

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Before jumping to conclusions what is going to happen - I will give it a month and then look at the actions of the Palenstine Authority.

Israel has made the first step in attempting to bring a peaceful solution to the problem - it is now the Palenstine people's turn.

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These are probably my feelings as well.

How was the Israeli occupation and colonisation of the Gaza strip illegal
Grey fox ; military occupation is not procluded , transfering your civilian population into occupied land definately is . Israel is signataory to the documents that prohibit it . So the settlements are unquestionably illegal .

Look at who's celebrating

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

I guess the Israeli democracy must've developed in Miracle Gro Potting Soil.

You know who could build the infrastructure and economy, Idaho?

How about the Iranians or Saudis who are all filthy rich and claim that their Arabic brothers are being screwed by the Jews, yet don't seem to be doing much to get their so-called brothers out of refugee camps and into homes?

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

Look at who's celebrating

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I really wonder what the Israelis will do if their steps towards peace will result in even more terrorism? Maybe they get a really good excuse this way to kill a whole lot of terrorists, though I wouldn´t see that as much of a loss...

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

Look at who's celebrating

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You can tell a lot about a political or historical event by looking at who’s celebrating it – and in this case it should be obvious that anything which gives Hamas encouragement is most assuredly a dangerous and foolhardy mistake.

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IMO it is a bit narrow-minded of the author to believe that anything that is celebrated by terrorists is by default a mistake.

Any action should be judged by its own and not by the way another group judges it.

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Originally Posted by PanzerJager

Possibly if the palestinians acted in a mature and civilized manner, as the israeli arabs do, they wont be treated like children.

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Who are the Israelis to judge the Palestinians?

Are you implying that the Israelis, who routinely flout international law, do not subscribe to nuclear weapons treaties, who use collective punishment, who pose as allied nationals while committing murder, who have kept an entire people imprisoned for decades, who steal land and water and resources for themselves and deny all these things to the people who live on the land, who use torture and arbitrary arrest and detention, who have had at least two Prime Ministers who were former terrorists, who conspired with apartheid South Africa in illegal weapons dealings, are so much more....

Are these the people you say should stand in judgement over the Palestinians?

Indeed.

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They have a vested interest in a continued conflict between Israel and Palestinians. Keeping them out is going to cost money, but letting them in on this issue any further than they are right now will be even costlier in the long run.

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The status quo of the other Arab nations are probably completely happy for Palestine to remain in its current state. As soon as Palestine becomes a state, it can declare war and be declared war upon. These leaders do not want a war with Israel, yet if Israel and Palestine went to war (likely), the street would force them to their brothers' aid.


Careful Beiruit, America does lots of those things to.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

Who are the Israelis to judge the Palestinians?

Are you implying that the Israelis, who routinely flout international law, do not subscribe to nuclear weapons treaties, who use collective punishment, who pose as allied nationals while committing murder, who have kept an entire people imprisoned for decades, who steal land and water and resources for themselves and deny all these things to the people who live on the land, who use torture and arbitrary arrest and detention, who have had at least two Prime Ministers who were former terrorists, who conspired with apartheid South Africa in illegal weapons dealings, are so much more....

Are these the people you say should stand in judgement over the Palestinians?

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The short answer?

Yes.

At any rate, I find it telling that your only contribution to this thread, the topic of which is an unprecedented, unilateral act on the part of the Israelis aimed at beginning a lasting peace, has been to step in and level a broadside at the evil, murdering Israelis.

What have your pet Palestinians done lately (or even ever) to try to solve this problem? Other than, of course, killing Jews, which I guess would be their ideal solution in the end...

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Originally Posted by Al Khalifah

The status quo of the other Arab nations are probably completely happy for Palestine to remain in its current state. As soon as Palestine becomes a state, it can declare war and be declared war upon. These leaders do not want a war with Israel, yet if Israel and Palestine went to war (likely), the street would force them to their brothers' aid.

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Not only that, but the conflict as it stands serves as a nice diversion for their populace from their own internal problems.

So where are the stories on the news about crazed religious terrorists gunning down innocent people? Seems as if it was the other side all the usual suspects on this forum would be ramming the story down our throats and telling us it 'typified muslims/arabs/darkies'.

3 Killed by Gaza Settler

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Such things are the products of mature political societies. Palestine is a fragmented, empoverished, destroyed country - if that... You can't grow roses in rubble. You need to build the infrastructure and economy to get the political system to mature. Expecting it to happen the other way round is crazy.

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And of course this is entirely the fault of the Israelis.

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Israel needs to do all the running on this one. They need to withdraw from the West Bank and give back Palestinian land stolen by settlers and the security wall. THey need to give back Palestinian water supplies. They need to stop running a brutal apartheid state.

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Same tripe again. Hell even I dont lay all the blame at the feet of the Palerstinians And you wonder why you get poked ~;) Of course the noble Palestinians are totally peace loving and have brought none of this upon themselves.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

What have your pet Palestinians done lately (or even ever) to try to solve this problem? Other than, of course, killing Jews, which I guess would be their ideal solution in the end...

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What? What?

What have those occupied, bombed, shot at, imprisoned, had their schools demolished, businesses closed, economy ruined, any vestige of government blown to pieces, etc.

You comment beggars belief quite frankly. I don't think you really have a clue what is going on over there.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

The short answer?

Yes.

At any rate, I find it telling that your only contribution to this thread, the topic of which is an unprecedented, unilateral act on the part of the Israelis aimed at beginning a lasting peace, has been to step in and level a broadside at the evil, murdering Israelis.

What have your pet Palestinians done lately (or even ever) to try to solve this problem? Other than, of course, killing Jews, which I guess would be their ideal solution in the end...

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You may find it as telling as you wish. Actually, I have not been vocal on these issues of late since keeping the Frontroom civil has taken up all my forum time.

Also, I admit to being saturated with news of the poor suffering settlers on TV, radio and in the paper. For weeks it has been front page news, 99% of it focussed on the plight of the oppressed settlers being forced to take hundreds of thousands of dollars to move out of illegal settlements where they took the best land, most of the water, and lorded over the vast majority like the dark days of South Africa.

So precious little has been written about the true suffering of the Palestinian people caused by these settlers and I find it... telling, that all the attention is focussed on those who took so much, kept it all, and then got paid to leave it behind after being careful to scorch as much Earth as possible before departing.

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What have those occupied, bombed, shot at, imprisoned, had their schools demolished, businesses closed, economy ruined, any vestige of government blown to pieces, etc.

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Again why has this happened. Is it your postition that Jews just hate Palestinians ? Didnt the samething happen to Germany and Japan in ww2? Are we then to blame for the misery of the German and Japanese people at that time or is the blame to be put where it belongs . Upon their leaders and in fact they themselves for following these leaders?

Heres a little breaking news on whats happening there.

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Israeli Shoots Randomly Into West Bank Palestinians; 3 Killed

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Israels reply

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Earlier, an Israeli settler allegedly killed three Palestinian workers in the West Bank. Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said the settler committed "Jewish terror."
The shooter reportedly was a man who drove Palestinian workers to an industrial site each day. Media reports said he stopped at a security checkpoint and took a guard's gun at knifepoint before opening fire.

The gunman was arrested.

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Palestinian reply

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A Hamas spokesman said the killings won't "pass without tough punishment," but the Palestinian militant group also said it doesn't want to hinder the Israeli withdrawal.

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LINK

How nice of them.

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Gaza Protester Sets Herself On Fire

A woman protesting the Gaza pullout is said to be in serious condition after setting herself on fire at a roadblock in southern Israel.

Hospital officials said she was burned over 70 percent of her body. She had been carrying a sign protesting the Gaza action.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

Also, I admit to being saturated with news of the poor suffering settlers on TV, radio and in the paper. For weeks it has been front page news, 99% of it focussed on the plight of the oppressed settlers being forced to take hundreds of thousands of dollars to move out of illegal settlements where they took the best land, most of the water, and lorded over the vast majority like the dark days of South Africa.

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In this we are at least in partial agreement. I do not sympathize with the settlers who are actively resisting the evacuation, but my lack of sympathy stems from different reasons. The way I see it, the Israeli gov't is trying to take steps that will hopefully lead to an improvement in the lives of all Israelis and Palestinians over the long term. The settlers who are resisting are no different from any other special interest group who don't give a shite about what's good for everybody else, as long as they get their way.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

What? What?

What have those occupied, bombed, shot at, imprisoned, had their schools demolished, businesses closed, economy ruined, any vestige of government blown to pieces, etc.

You comment beggars belief quite frankly. I don't think you really have a clue what is going on over there.

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You're right, I have no clue what's going on over there. Nor, apparently, does anybody who supports Israel.

~:rolleyes:

Give your head a shake. My opinion is simply different from yours.

This is not a matter of who has committed more atrocities against whom. If we want to get into that, you and I could trade links all day, trying to one-up each other:

Idaho: "I'll open with one Israeli tank round fired into a crowd of innocent Palestinians."

Goofball: "I'll see your tank round and raise you one Palestinian suicide bomber blowing up a busload of Israeli schoolchildren."

But where does that get us?

We can argue all day about "who started it," but the reality exists that the situation exists as it does, and it desperately needs fixing no matter who cast the first stone.

As I said before, it's very telling (I know how much you like that word, Beirut) that the Israelis are the ones who actually seem to be trying to do something about opening up the doors to peace, and all anybody does is criticize them even more for it.

Good attitude.

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Originally Posted by Al Khalifah

Careful Beiruit, America does lots of those things to.

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Which I'm sure he is aware of. Besides, he's Canadian.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Seems as if it was the other side all the usual suspects on this forum would be ramming the story down our throats and telling us it 'typified muslims/arabs/darkies'.

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Am I a usual suspect? Since you commented that my earlier post was non-sensical and childish, where I was asking if this move had simply garnered any Palestinian goodwill, you haven't responded once.

Nice red herring, though.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

The short answer?

Yes.

At any rate, I find it telling that your only contribution to this thread, the topic of which is an unprecedented, unilateral act on the part of the Israelis aimed at beginning a lasting peace, has been to step in and level a broadside at the evil, murdering Israelis.

What have your pet Palestinians done lately (or even ever) to try to solve this problem? Other than, of course, killing Jews, which I guess would be their ideal solution in the end...

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You are blaming the victim for fighting back.

By your thinking the Polish Jews who fought back in the Ghettos where in error.

The error of the Palestinians has been to attack civilians...terrorism.

The error of the Israelis has been to attack civilians... collateral damage.

When occupying a land you have an obligation to treat the occupied humanely. The failure to do so and the resulting backlash is the primarily the fault of the occupier, however the acts of terrorism I will always lay back at the people who did it.

Get the ultra-right settlers out of the occupied territories. Tighten up the Israeli borders. The resources used to defend the 8000 in the occupied zone will be much better used to defend the rest of Israel on their borders.

If Palestine then decides to mount an invasion against Israel proper, then Israel should get the full support of the west. To the point that Israel should then become the greater Israel with the caveat that all in its borders become citizens with access to all the basics needed to live and learn.

Arab media is all over it:

Sharon: Champion of all Arabs (temporarily)

Settlers: naughty kids

Palestinians: Freedom at last!

American Media (i watch primarily CNN):

Settlers: Heroes

Sharon: Bad

Palestinians: ditto.

On another note i support the isrealis wrecking the settlers homes, first their homes are compact not fit for palestinan Ashayer families (1 Asheera consists of all relatives and friends of relatives and relatives of relatives... well you get the picture) and secondly the settlers themselves have already stripped their homes bare, so there is not much in there to make it a viable living place, i mean even water sinks and toilets got removed, might as well take the building apart stone by stone and take it with you, third if the buildings are demolished any reasonings by the settlers to return will be eroded.

Everything seems well for now, but i hear rumors settlers will be relocated to the west bank, if thats true, thats creating a whole load of trouble by itself.

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Originally Posted by faisal

On another note i support the isrealis wrecking the settlers homes, first their homes are compact not fit for palestinan Ashayer families (1 Asheera consists of all relatives and friends of relatives and relatives of relatives... well you get the picture) and secondly the settlers themselves have already stripped their homes bare, so there is not much in there to make it a viable living place, i mean even water sinks and toilets got removed, might as well take the building apart stone by stone and take it with you, third if the buildings are demolished any reasonings by the settlers to return will be eroded.

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It's nothing but a policy scorched earth. It's despicable, selfish, petty, and imparts the notion that they are removing their goods so that criminals will not profit from them after they leave. In fact it was the settlers who were the criminals and the Palestinians the victims of their crimes.

It wouldn't surprise me a nickel's worth if wells were destroyed and half-grown crops bulldozed.

Petty, petty, petty. Take the $350,000 payoff, bulldoze the house, plow over the crops, tear out the flowers, cement the well, and tell everyone what a bunch of bastards the Palestinians are who will be living on the scorched earth pile of dirt where a perfectly good house was that was torn down for no other reason than pride and spite.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

It's nothing but a policy scorched earth. It's despicable, selfish, petty, and imparts the notion that they are removing their goods so that criminals will not profit from them after they leave. In fact it was the settlers who were the criminals and the Palestinians the victims of their crimes.

It wouldn't surprise me a nickel's worth if wells were destroyed and half-grown crops bulldozed.

Petty, petty, petty. Take the $350,000 payoff, bulldoze the house, plow over the crops, tear out the flowers, cement the well, and tell everyone what a bunch of bastards the Palestinians are who will be living on the scorched earth pile of dirt where a perfectly good house was that was torn down for no other reason than pride and spite.

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Those Israeli's are just monsters!
How could they do that?

Mohammed el-Samhouri, a consultant to the Palestinian ministerial committee deciding how best to use the abandoned settlements, says the houses are unsuitable for their needs: "We're not looking for American housing where you have a backyard and a frontyard and a tennis court. We would rather they demolished them."

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Heres a little breaking news on whats happening there.

Israels reply (Sharon quoted)

Palestinian reply (Hamas quoted)

How nice of them.

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Rather disingenious really. Why quote an institutional source for the first and a radical one for the second? Why not get a quote from Sharon and compare it with Abbas? Then why not compare Hamas' quote with one from one of the ultra nationalist groups?

This is typical of the kinds of reporting we are subjected to daily.

Perhaps we should commission a survey that asks Israelis if they 'understand why the settler shot 3 Palestinians'. When 35% say yes we can have big headlines "35% of Isrealis symptathise with Jewish terror".

Some of you just can´t stop hating one side, can you?
If I understand that correctly, Israel was to be destroyed many years ago, but they won and occupied some land, terror began. Now both sides didn´t go one step back for years, showing weakness is deadly I guess. Finally Israel wants to give some of the land back to the Palestinians, their first step towards peace.
Now we have innocent Palestinians who just want to live in peace and don´t support terrorism, I think it´s good for them and they deserve some good land to live on.
Then there are Hamas and other terrorists, who should shut up and stop but will most definitely go on with their attacks in order to destroy Israel. I hope their support will stop, making them unable to go on.
On the other side there is the Israeli government that made a good step, whatever the reason was.
Then there are the israeli soldiers who have a hard job throwing settlers out who act like nice families and innocent poor people making female soldiers cry, I wish them strength to throw them out anyway. ~D
And finally we got the settlers who don´t want to go(I think there are some who are gone already, I´m fine with them), they should just stop crying in my oppinion and be thrown out. I always wondered how one can feel comfortable by demanding soldiers to secure them on occupied land and to demand a state to make their living in a war zone as comfortable as possible. That´s just stupid, they can´t even claim any "connection to their homeland" because it isn´t their homeland, and btw what is a homeland that is routinely hit by mortar-shells? :dizzy2:

Just my oppinion, there are people to blame for so many things on both sides, but if we(and they) are not able to forgive and work on a solution, there will be no solution. You can´t have peace if you can´t forgive your enemies. ~:handball:

Perhaps we should turf some Americans out of their homes so we can restore the land to its rightful owners? If we're having a bleeding hearts moment for some really really oppressed people... Or maybe we should try to live in the now rather than bringing up the past.

Yeah but the point is that the present for Palestinians is sh*t and for Isrealis is far better.

Where would you rather live:
a:http://wvl.indymedia.org/uploads/200....jpgalri1f.jpg
or
b:http://www.col.fr/judeotheque/images/tel-aviv.jpg

If you really can't decide between the two - these minor factors might just swing it:

In a you can't go out at night because of a military curfew. In a you have no direct access to ports or airports. In fact you might not even have a passport. B is sadly lacking in tanks and checkpoints. B also lacks a's honest, rough and ready approach to healthcare and schooling. A is a bit duff for work - as even if you get a job you might not be able to turn up reliably if the military shut down the roads (frequently). However A is excellent if you are bothered by relatives dropping by - as the chances are they will be in different towns - or even different countries with little chance of ever being allowed to visit.

Again the Palestians made their bed now they have to sleep in it. I have no sympathy for such a nation of terrorists. Yes I know their not all terrorists but they certainly dont do much to stop it. This goes for most of the middle east. I believe most love this and celebrate everytime a Jew is killed. I dont think most of them want to live in peace unless its one in which Israel no longer exists. They oppose this terror about as much as southeners oppossed slavery. They wouldnt be living is this squalor if they behaved like civilized human beings.

Well at last Gawain has pinned his colours to the mast. One small minded bigot served up with fries - come and collect your order.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Well at last Gawain has pinned his colours to the mast. One small minded bigot served up with fries - come and collect your order.

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Make that two small minded bigots and could I have some gravy with the fries?

The Palestinians are largely the architects of their own misfortune! And what about those poor Al Qaeda folks having to live in fear, running for their lives? They have to live like hunted animals! Shouldn't we feel sorry for them as well?

When the majority of Palestinians get a clue and finally figure out that killing Jews isn't helping THEM, then they might get some of my sympathy. The dancing in the streets when somebody gets murdered however suggests they have a ways to go.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

Well at last Gawain has pinned his colours to the mast. One small minded bigot served up with fries - come and collect your order.

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Wow. You need to step things down a notch there Tex. The disco's open all night, no need to make an ass of yourself in the first five minutes. You have been the one putting on the best demonstration of small-mindedness with your incessant "Israelis are all evil/Palestinians are all innocent victims" chant.

You like pictures pictures, eh?

How about this one:

http://www.jta.org/storage/articleimages/13868.jpg

or this one:

http://www.bized.ac.uk/images/suicide_bomb.jpg

or this one:

http://www.geocities.com/neomi59/098.jpg

Hope you enjoyed viewing the handy-work of your Palestinian "victims."

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Originally Posted by Goofball

Wow. You need to step things down a notch there Tex. The disco's open all night, no need to make an ass of yourself in the first five minutes. You have been the one putting on the best demonstration of small-mindedness with your incessant "Israelis are all evil/Palestinians are all innocent victims" chant.

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Well the disco may have only just started - but you certainly seemed to have smoked your full stash of crack already.

When did I say Israelis are evil? When? In fact quite the opposite all I have stated is that the Palestinians are not evil but thoroughly shafted by all those around them. That obviously cuts against the grain of the endless pro-Israeli propaganda you swallow daily and hence you get your knickers in a twist.

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When did I say Israelis are evil? When?

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I suppose you never gave that impression.

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In fact quite the opposite all I have stated is that the Palestinians are not evil but thoroughly shafted by all those around them.

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We all agree on that . When are the Palestinains going to realise it and stop blaming the Jews?

That obviously cuts against the grain of the endless pro-Palestinian propaganda you swallow daily and hence you get your knickers in a twist.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

When did I say Israelis are evil? When?

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Hmmm.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

They need to withdraw from the West Bank and give back Palestinian land stolen by settlers and the security wall. THey need to give back Palestinian water supplies. They need to stop running a brutal apartheid state.

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My mistake, I guess. I just assumed that when you accuse people of stealing water and land and of running a brutal apartheid state, that the implication is that you believe them to be evil.

Mea culpa.

Gawain and Goof, I agree that the Palestinians need to stop the terrorists in their midsts, as well as trying to stop just blaiming Isreal. But couldn't it also be said that the Isreali people should stop allowing their government to comment highly illegal and imoral actions against the Palestinians?

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But couldn't it also be said that the Isreali people should stop allowing their government to comment highly illegal and imoral actions against the Palestinians?

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Excuse me but what is the name of this thread again? Last I checked Israel was a democracy. ~;)

Yeah, I know, I named the thread. ~;)
And yes, it is a step in the right direction, I think. And if the government continues to do the right thing, than that is good. And yes, the Isrealis gave, now it is time the Palestinians to act.
But the Isreali government still aren't the nicest people.